Hi;

This is referring to Samatha's website, specifically this page:

http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC1

The bottom of page above has the following table:

acid contents of starter 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30
pH value of starter 4.2 4.1 4.0 3.9 3.8 3.7 3.6 3.5
suggested rye flour contents in percent 50 45 40 35 30 25 20 15

I don't quite understand how to interpret the table, does the table
mean:

If I make the starter flour 15% rye, 85% wheat, then the outcome will
be a pH value of 3.5 at the end of a 3 stage Detmold process?

I thought more rye would cause the starter to be more sour or is that
only true if I use rye meal (Roggenschrot)?

If somebody understands how to utilize this table, especially as a way
to adapt the starter for different final rye:wheat ratios, please
explain.

Jan

Jan Fure wrote:
> Hi;
>

> If I make the starter flour 15% rye, 85% wheat, then the outcome will
> be a pH value of 3.5 at the end of a 3 stage Detmold process?

(I had to reshuffle this post - it's kind of backwards)

You'll never get a pH of 3.5 out of DM3, and if you want to make bread
with a starter and it has 3.5, it won't work, because it's way over.

> I thought more rye would cause the starter to be more sour or is that
> only true if I use rye meal (Roggenschrot)?

You will get more acidity with full grain flour because of the higher
ash content. Darker flour has more buffering capability, the pH sinks
slower and the LB's can work longer and produce acid. Whether it's full
grain rye, wheat or whey addition, does not matter. With rye meal, you
may have an issue that not everything can be fermented because of the
partially intact kernels.

And - why would you mix flours when growing a starter? Isn't it already
complicated enough to mix different flour amounts for the final bread?

If you use a plain rye starter for bread and only that for the rye
content, you'll get something line 15 - 20 % for total rye % in the
final bread and that's a pretty blond rye bread. Why thin the starter
more with wheat flour?

So....

This table has only remote to do with the DM3 - in one aspect, that more
starter (= acid) is needed for higher rye content. Since the DM3 is kind
of standardized, you'll get the same acidity our of it every time and
the only way to increase the amount of acid in the rye dough is to
increase the starter amount.

The rye dough needs to be soured to suppress the amylase activity which
would mess up the dough structure otherwise and you can't rise the
bread. This is achieved, if the pH of the rye dough is at or below pH
4.5 during the whole process.

> This is referring to Samatha's website, specifically this page:
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC1
>
> The bottom of page above has the following table:
>
> acid contents of starter 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30
> pH value of starter 4.2 4.1 4.0 3.9 3.8 3.7 3.6 3.5
> suggested rye flour contents in percent 50 45 40 35 30 25 20 15
>
> I don't quite understand how to interpret the table, does the table
> mean:
(no, it doesn't - see above)

The longer you ferment a starter, the more sour it gets and the less is
needed to sour the rye bread. If you have higher acidity in your
starter, you'll need less amount. That's what this table illustrates and
if somebody wants to measure his/her starter performance and titrate the
acid content, then one can compare it to this table.

That's all - for reference and information only. Depending, how you run
your starter - realistically probably in pH maybe down to 3.7, the rye
content can change between 25 % and 50 %, which is quite a range.

For a practical purpose in a home/hobby baker environment, it may give
some ideas what's going on with this rye stuff. That's why I put it up.

> If somebody understands how to utilize this table, especially as a way
> to adapt the starter for different final rye:wheat ratios, please
> explain.

If you want different rye %, use the DM3 calculator on my web site, to
get an approximate idea what to use. That works pretty well in all the
rye % which are selectable there, that's from 20 - 100 %, I think.

SamaRtha

Samartha wrote:
---- <SNIP> ---------
This table has only remote to do with the DM3 - in one aspect,
that more starter (= acid) is needed for higher rye content.
---- <SNIP> ---------
This goes to the core of what I don't understand about the table, you
are saying more acid/lower pH is needed for a higher rye content, which
indicates a positive correlation between acid contents and rye
percentage.

The table has the lowest pH together with the lowest rye percentages,
which is a negative correlation between acidity and rye contents.

Your reply is quite clear, and stands on it's own, it just looks to me
that the order of the last row of the table (rye percentage) is
inverted.

Jan

Jan Fure wrote:
> Samartha wrote:
> ---- <SNIP> ---------
> This table has only remote to do with the DM3 - in one aspect,
> that more starter (= acid) is needed for higher rye content.
> ---- <SNIP> ---------
> This goes to the core of what I don't understand about the table, you
> are saying more acid/lower pH is needed for a higher rye content, which
> indicates a positive correlation between acid contents and rye
> percentage.
>
> The table has the lowest pH together with the lowest rye percentages,
> which is a negative correlation between acidity and rye contents.
>
> Your reply is quite clear, and stands on it's own, it just looks to me
> that the order of the last row of the table (rye percentage) is
> inverted.
>
> Jan


acid contents of starter 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30
pH value of starter 4.2 4.1 4.0 3.9 3.8 3.7 3.6 3.5
suggested rye flour contents in percent 50 45 40 35 30 25 20 15

Was simple explantion, ah?

Try mine: two upper raws give MAXIMUM acid content and corresponding pH
for maintaining plain rye starters of given hydration that is, in this
particular case, the proportion of rye flour to the total of rye flour
and water.

Thus 50% rye content here is 100% normal hydration.

I suggest for rye bread a starter of about 60% hydration (about 63% rye
content)(for example, 6 g water, 10 g rye) with subsequent tripling,
acidity 7-8 (pH about 4.2-4.3).
It is from "other" tables.

Jan Fure wrote:
> Samartha wrote:
> ---- <SNIP> ---------
> This table has only remote to do with the DM3 - in one aspect,
> that more starter (= acid) is needed for higher rye content.
> ---- <SNIP> ---------
> This goes to the core of what I don't understand about the table, you
> are saying more acid/lower pH is needed for a higher rye content, which
> indicates a positive correlation between acid contents and rye
> percentage.
>
> The table has the lowest pH together with the lowest rye percentages,
> which is a negative correlation between acidity and rye contents.
>
> Your reply is quite clear, and stands on it's own, it just looks to me
> that the order of the last row of the table (rye percentage) is
> inverted.
>
> Jan


acid contents of starter 9 12 15 18 21 24 27 30
pH value of starter 4.2 4.1 4.0 3.9 3.8 3.7 3.6 3.5
suggested rye flour contents in percent 50 45 40 35 30 25 20 15

Was simple explantion, ah?

Try mine: two upper raws give MAXIMUM acid content and corresponding pH
for maintaining plain rye starters of given hydration that is, in this
particular case, the proportion of rye flour to the total of rye flour
and water.

Thus 50% rye content here is 100% normal hydration.

I suggest for rye bread a starter of about 60% hydration (about 63% rye
content)(for example, 6 g water, 10 g rye) with subsequent tripling,
acidity 7-8 (pH about 4.2-4.3).
It is from "other" tables.