Somewhere back a little bit Dick mentioned a reason for not baking in
a hot preheated oven: saving energy in this already wasteful world. I
would like to do my part here, I wont deny that one reason is my huge
electric bill this month, but saving the planet would be nice too. I am
one of those bread bakers who preheat my oven for an hour or so before
sliding my loaves onto the hot stone (quarry tiles in my case) and
making steam. This works well for me and I MUCH prefer my bread this
way than the cold oven method.

So how can I reduce energy consumption and continue to bake bread I
really like? Well one tidbit I read said using the preheat time to bake
potatoes, or bake in an oven that you just finished cooking your roast
or whatever in. This makes alot of sense to me and I will try to
schedule my bakes around my wifes oven use in the future.

Another thing I am contemplating is making other bread in the
preheating oven. For instance, while I do not really care for the cold
oven approach, someone I that I usually bake an extra loaf for prefers
her bread with a softer, less dramatic crust, which I really dont know
how to accomplish as it hasnt been my goal, but perhaps this preheat
time would be a good place to learn. This would also leave me more room
in my hot oven for another loaf for my freezer, extending the time
until the next need to bake.

Finally and possibly just a pipedream, I get help heating my house in
these New England winters with a fireplace insert woodstove. It doesnt
really have a cooking surface, but it has a nice glass door where I can
see what is going on inside. I have always wondered about how I could
let the fire burn down to some nice red coals, and maybe utilize a camp
type dutch oven (coverless) or cast iron frying pan to bake some bread,
while still heating my house. Or even lay some kind of stone right over
the coals. This I am sure would make quite a mess with the ashes and
all in my living room and get my wife all upset, so is probably not the
best idea, but at least I am thinking.

Anybody else want to save the world?

hutchndi

"hutchndi" > wrote in message oups.com...

> I am one of those bread bakers who preheat my oven for an hour
> or so before sliding my loaves onto the hot stone (quarry tiles in my
> case) and making steam. This works well for me and I MUCH
> prefer my bread this way than the cold oven method.

How do your loaves look? So good as my cold-started ones?
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/billowy.html
http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/
Well, they could taste better, I suppose ...

> So how can I reduce energy consumption and continue to bake bread I
> really like? Well one tidbit I read said using the preheat time to bake
> potatoes...

You can bake potatoes more energy-efficiently in a toaster oven, particularly
if you cut them into small chunks. You can do a pretty good job, and an
energy-effective one, on whole potatoes in a microwave oven.

> Another thing I am contemplating is making other bread in the
> preheating oven.

That could lead you to energy-efficient solution, namely making all
your bread that way.

> ... perhaps this preheat time would be a good place to learn (to make)
> bread with a softer, less dramatic crust ...

Cold starts do not necessarily make undramatic crusts. Cook-stove
ovens can not make the same loaves as peasant ovens, so you can quit
trying until you are ready to build something in you back yard.

> I do not really care for the cold oven approach ...

Have you ever tried it? In the context of this discussion, it is the most
obvious energy saver.

> ... someone I that I usually bake an extra loaf for prefers her bread with
a softer, less dramatic crust ...

Does Mrs. Hutchndi know about these extracurricular ventures?

> I have always wondered about how I could let the fire burn down to
> some nice red coals, and maybe utilize a camp type dutch oven
> (coverless) or cast iron frying pan to bake some bread, while still heating
> my house. Or even lay some kind of stone right over the coals. This I
> am sure would make quite a mess with the ashes and all in my living
> room and get my wife all upset ...

To start, the best thing would be to get that other lady out of the picture.
Then try the cold-start bake in the oven you got.

In the New England winters, preheating your oven is not particularly wasteful
if your household thermostats are working and your cook-stove heat does not
cost more than your furnace heat. You could turn your thermostats down to
55 degr. F. and go live in your kitchen.

> Anybody else want to save the world?

Not necessarily. But I do think that it is possible to hypothetically address that
cause more convincingly than you are doing.

--
Dicky

" > wrote in message
...

How do your loaves look? So good as my cold-started ones?
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/billowy.html
http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/
Well, they could taste better, I suppose ...

My loaves are looking quite well thank you dick. You want more blurry
picks, I hope to have a new camera after Christmas....

That could lead you to energy-efficient solution, namely making all
your bread that way.

No it won't...

Cold starts do not necessarily make undramatic crusts. Cook-stove
ovens can not make the same loaves as peasant ovens, so you can quit
trying until you are ready to build something in you back yard.

Someday...

> I do not really care for the cold oven approach ...

Have you ever tried it? In the context of this discussion, it is the most
obvious energy saver.

Yes. Don't like it...


Does Mrs. Hutchndi know about these extracurricular ventures?

Yes. Its her mother...

To start, the best thing would be to get that other lady out of the picture.

I think that would cause more problems...

In the New England winters, preheating your oven is not particularly
wasteful
if your household thermostats are working and your cook-stove heat does not
cost more than your furnace heat. You could turn your thermostats down to
55 degr. F. and go live in your kitchen.

My oven is pretty efficient, doesnt heat my kitchen that much....I know
yours is old, maybe time for a new one

> Anybody else want to save the world?

Not necessarily. But I do think that it is possible to hypothetically
address that
cause more convincingly than you are doing.

How bout dough?

--
hutchndi

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

> Cook-stove ovens can not make the same loaves as peasant ovens, so you can
> quit
> trying until you are ready to build something in you back yard.

While agreeing that no two loaves are "the same", I respectfully disagree
with your inference that cook-stove ovens necessarily produce bread of
inferior quality to "peasant ovens" (whatever those are). One can
definitely produce levain loaves of comparable aroma, flavor, crust and
crumb to artisan bakery loaves in a home oven; it just may take a bit more
effort and energy than one is willing to expend :

http://samartha.net/SD/file-corner/groups.yahoo.com/bread_pictures/BYDATE/index.html(Steve's Pain au Levain - 06/18/2003)- Steve Brandt

Link improperly posted... try this:

http://samartha.net/SD/file-corner/g...ATE/index.html

(Steve's Pain au Levain - 06/18/2003)

- Steve Brandt

hutchndi wrote:

> So how can I reduce energy consumption and continue to bake bread I
> really like?

Hutch,

You might try covered cloches. They are well suited for cold starts.
They protect the dough from drying out early on, and, when you take the
covers off, the dough's surface is hot and moist, perfect for a fine
crust at the finish.

The pro's a You can do the cold start without penalty. You can get
away with pushing really ripe, fully proofed doughs (something Kenneth
advocates) AND still get good spring. You get great snappy crusts
because the dough surface remains moist longer. You get big hole crumb
since the dough has a slower ramp up phase and gasses have time to
percolate.

The con's a The cloches are heavy. They get hot. They run $35 each.
You must pay particular attention to folding and shaping technique.
Shortcuts and omissions tend to get revealed when the dough surface
remains flexible for the first 15 or 20 minutes of baking.

I think batard shape cloches work better. Two will fit on a standard
oven rack.

Will

> wrote

> One can
> definitely produce levain loaves of comparable aroma, flavor, crust and
> crumb to artisan bakery loaves in a home oven; it just may take a bit more
> effort and energy than one is willing to expend .

This is where I am going. This subject has been dragged through the mud in
this forum, with the "hot" crowd always winning.While I have never had
anything from an "artisan" bakery, my bread is certainly better than
anything I have tryed from local shops or stores. I dont want to lose that
by going back to a cold oven, no steam, and loaf pans. Perhaps as Will
suggests, some type of cloche might be in order. I still have that Romertopf
someone handed down to me and I havent gotton around to trying...but then I
wouldnt be able to peek at them bake through my oven window

hutchndi

hutchndi wrote:

> I still have that Romertopf
> someone handed down to me and I havent gotton around to trying...but then I
> wouldnt be able to peek at them bake through my oven window

Sure you can. The covered portion of the bake is about 15 to 20
minutes. After that the bread is uncovered.

I cannot speak for a Romertopff though. My wife got one a while back.
It seems a little big to me.

Will

> wrote:

The covered portion of the bake is about 15 to 20
> minutes. After that the bread is uncovered.
>
> I cannot speak for a Romertopff though. My wife got one a while back.
> It seems a little big to me.
>
> Will
>

Well yes but it should work somewhat simalar to a real bread cloche right?
Enough so as to see if I want to splurge $35.00 anyway. So cornmeal the
bottom, put in my shaped loaf, and put into an unpreheated oven right? Say
350 for 20 minutes and take off the top (total or after the oven reaches
temperature?)? I can watch till it looks done from there?

hutchndi

hutchndi wrote:

>
>
> Well yes but it should work somewhat simalar to a real bread cloche right?
> Enough so as to see if I want to splurge $35.00 anyway. So cornmeal the
> bottom, put in my shaped loaf, and put into an unpreheated oven right? Say
> 350 for 20 minutes and take off the top (total or after the oven reaches
> temperature?)?
>

Not to pick an argument with Will, because you can start with a cold
cloche, but I like the crust you get baking in a pre-heated cloche.

You don't need to spend $35 either. I made mine from a flower pot that
I got at an after season sale for a few bucks.

Regards,

Charles

rry" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> Not to pick an argument with Will, because you can start with a cold
> cloche, but I like the crust you get baking in a pre-heated cloche.
>
> You don't need to spend $35 either. I made mine from a flower pot that
> I got at an after season sale for a few bucks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

Charles, saw the pics of your beautiful artisan loaf in a flower pot, and
went out and found myself a flower pot. Looks pretty much like yours. I
think my oven is smaller inside (than yours) though, once I put my tiles on
the bottom rack and I put the metal eye ring in the flour pot for a handle,
its a pretty tight squeeze, and I have electric elements top and bottom
(that eye ring makes me nervous). So while its a great idea, not so great
for my oven. Its really not shaped to be close to the dough anyways, like
the cloches, ever wonder if thats why you have to preheat it? Just a
thought. Anyways the flower pot is just the right size to transplant my
avacado plant into.

hutchndi

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 06:56:28 -0500, "hutchndi"
> wrote:

>rry" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>>
>> Not to pick an argument with Will, because you can start with a cold
>> cloche, but I like the crust you get baking in a pre-heated cloche.
>>
>> You don't need to spend $35 either. I made mine from a flower pot that
>> I got at an after season sale for a few bucks.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Charles
>
> Charles, saw the pics of your beautiful artisan loaf in a flower pot, and
>went out and found myself a flower pot. Looks pretty much like yours. I
>think my oven is smaller inside (than yours) though, once I put my tiles on
>the bottom rack and I put the metal eye ring in the flour pot for a handle,
>its a pretty tight squeeze, and I have electric elements top and bottom
>(that eye ring makes me nervous). So while its a great idea, not so great
>for my oven. Its really not shaped to be close to the dough anyways, like
>the cloches, ever wonder if thats why you have to preheat it? Just a
>thought. Anyways the flower pot is just the right size to transplant my
>avacado plant into.
>
>hutchndi
>

Howdy,

I'd be cautious about using the flower pots in contact with
food at baking temperatures.

Lead issues are no joke.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Will wrote:

> You might try covered cloches. They are well suited for cold starts.


Ed replies:
Yes - Try the cloche with cold start - it has great results.

After Phil from Ohio shared awesome pictures of his battard loaves
baked by cloche with cold start, I pulled out the big round cloche and
gave it a try.

The dough needs to be about 2 lb. for the round cloche. Smaller isn't
as good.

The benefits are no dough transfer collapse issues, the loaf does a
powered oven spring with the cold start, and you get the richer hues of
color and the blistered crust associated with baking in steam.

Bake covered for 25 minutes at 450F then 10 to 15 more at 425. Total
oven time 40 minutes.

Ed Bechtel

Kenneth wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 06:56:28 -0500, "hutchndi"
> > wrote:
>
>>rry" > wrote in message
link.net...
>>>
>>> Not to pick an argument with Will, because you can start with a cold
>>> cloche, but I like the crust you get baking in a pre-heated cloche.
>>>
>>> You don't need to spend $35 either. I made mine from a flower pot that
>>> I got at an after season sale for a few bucks.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Charles
>>
>> Charles, saw the pics of your beautiful artisan loaf in a flower pot, and
>>went out and found myself a flower pot. Looks pretty much like yours. I
>>think my oven is smaller inside (than yours) though, once I put my tiles on
>>the bottom rack and I put the metal eye ring in the flour pot for a handle,
>>its a pretty tight squeeze, and I have electric elements top and bottom
>>(that eye ring makes me nervous). So while its a great idea, not so great
>>for my oven. Its really not shaped to be close to the dough anyways, like
>>the cloches, ever wonder if thats why you have to preheat it? Just a
>>thought. Anyways the flower pot is just the right size to transplant my
>>avacado plant into.
>>
>>hutchndi
>>
>
> Howdy,
>
> I'd be cautious about using the flower pots in contact with
> food at baking temperatures.
>
> Lead issues are no joke.

"Lead issues" involved glazed pottery, not unglazed--for obvious reasons.

B/

hutchndi wrote:
> Somewhere back a little bit Dick mentioned a reason for not baking in
> a hot preheated oven: saving energy in this already wasteful world. I
> would like to do my part here, I wont deny that one reason is my huge
> electric bill this month, but saving the planet would be nice too. I am

If you want to save some energy but still preheat your oven put a
thermometer in the oven so you can put your bread in the moment the
right temp is reached. An hours preheating seams a bit excessive to me.
It doesn't take this long for my oven with a thick terra cotta tray.
The tray has the advantage of maintaining the right temperature when
opening the oven door to turn the loaves and check them. When I don't
put the stone in the temp drops quite a bit. If I'm cooking pizza that
can make quite a difference to the finished pizza, in my oven at least.
I've been cooking pizza in that oven for 15 years and believe me it's
better with a stone in there even if I'm not baking directly on it. And
before Dicky does says the thing about it only having to be in the room
to make a difference. I'm not prone to irrational, emotive statements
motivated by gooey-eyed nostalgia.

It's worth adding that baking from a cold start takes longer. So are
you saving energy? Anyway at this time of year I'm glad of any extra
heat from the oven.

TG

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:38:28 -0800, Brian Mailman
> wrote:


>> Howdy,
>>
>> I'd be cautious about using the flower pots in contact with
>> food at baking temperatures.
>>
>> Lead issues are no joke.
>
>"Lead issues" involved glazed pottery, not unglazed--for obvious reasons.
>
>B/

Howdy,

Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear...

Do you know flower pots to be food safe?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...

> Do you know flower pots to be food safe?

They are not to eaten.

Watch out for dropping them on your toes, esp. if they are big.

Used for cloches, there is considerable hazard for burns. (But so
it is for cloches.)

Kenneth, can you learn to trim irrelevant quoted text?

--
Dicky

Kenneth wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:38:28 -0800, Brian Mailman
> > wrote:
>
>
>>> Howdy,
>>>
>>> I'd be cautious about using the flower pots in contact with food
>>> at baking temperatures.
>>>
>>> Lead issues are no joke.
>>
>> "Lead issues" involved glazed pottery, not unglazed--for obvious
>> reasons.

>
> Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear...

You seemed to be talking about pottery and lead issues.

> Do you know flower pots to be food safe?

Don't eat them.

B/

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:19:34 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote, among other things:

>Does Mrs. Hutchndi know about these extracurricular ventures?
>To start, the best thing would be to get that other lady out of the picture.

I know you aren't after accolades, Dick, but this message of yours
gets a AAA+ from me!! :-)

These woodsy New Englanders are oft times really dug in.

Cheers.
Don R.

> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:19:34 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
> wrote, among other things:
>
> >Does Mrs. Hutchndi know about these extracurricular ventures?
> >To start, the best thing would be to get that other lady out of the
picture.
>
> I know you aren't after accolades, Dick, but this message of yours
> gets a AAA+ from me!! :-)
>
> These woodsy New Englanders are oft times really dug in.
>
> Cheers.
> Don R.
>


While MR Adams is indeed halarious, Mr Hutchndi was not as amused with
the implication of adultery as you. Putting up with these New England
winters can certainly be trying, but I assure you, there is nobody I would
rather be "dug in" with than the sweet Mrs Hutchndi. And thats all I will
say about that.

hutchndi

"hutchndi" > wrote in message news:JCBof.1615$NS.633@dukeread04...

> While MR Adams is indeed halarious, Mr Hutchndi was not as amused with
> the implication of adultery as you. Putting up with these New England
> winters can certainly be trying, but I assure you, there is nobody I would
> rather be "dug in" with than the sweet Mrs Hutchndi. And thats all I will
> say about that.

Say no more. But if you can learn to make really good loaves, and you give
away enough of them to various ladies, you could get lucky.

--
Dicky