I run a small bakery which is specializing in rye breads.

This year in Australia we have been in a terrible drought which badly
affected rye plantations. The situation has become so serious that in fact
Australia has been forced to buy German rye flour because there is no longer
local stock available. The introduction of this new flour manifested a
disaster for my bakery. The sour made of this German rye has dramatically
lesser acidity, and it diminishes daily!

As a result of this reduced amount of lactic and other acids in the dough,
the quality of the bread has severely worsened.

The pure cultures of yeast and lactobacilli are unavailable in Australia and
I have to rely on trying making a new sour with wild organisms witch is time
a consuming and uncertain process. (Particularly taking into account that
the new flour was unsuccessful initially anyway)

I have already tried to refresh the sour using yeast, but to no avail.

If anyone could help me with my problem and give me any advice I would be
very grateful.

Thanks,

Michael

Could you possibly try to ferment at a higher temperature? I only do
this at home, but I can get extremely sour starters but leaving the
sourdough at around 85-90 F. for an extended period, like 12-14 hours.

Can you get whole rye grain from organic food coops and grind it
yourself? This might at least give you a starter that you can use to
inoculate your German flour.

Ron

1.Yes I have tryed to brew the sour at 30 - 32 C for up to15 hours but to no
avail.
2 .The German flour has already suffocated a very good original sour made
of local flour. At the moment I start brewing 5 batches of sour but it will
take a very long time
??????? ???!
Michael
"Ron" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Could you possibly try to ferment at a higher temperature? I only do
> this at home, but I can get extremely sour starters but leaving the
> sourdough at around 85-90 F. for an extended period, like 12-14 hours.
>
> Can you get whole rye grain from organic food coops and grind it
> yourself? This might at least give you a starter that you can use to
> inoculate your German flour.
>
> Ron
>

> The situation has become so serious that in fact
>Australia has been forced to buy German rye flour because there is no longer
>local stock available. The introduction of this new flour manifested a
>disaster for my bakery. The sour made of this German rye has dramatically
>lesser acidity, and it diminishes daily!


If the starter was made properly and fed regulary it will be robust in
time.
I don't believe either that German rye flour produces a different
tanginess than the Australian rye.
Have you tried acclimatizing your Australian rye sour by gradually
using German rye flour but at the same time reducing the Australian rye
flour. until you reach the point that you are using 100% German rye
flour?
In that way whatever microbial flora is present n the German rye flour
can gradually work in harmony with the Australian born culture.
Microbes have the talent for adaptation if they are gradually
acclimatized.
I have that performance variation problem with rye flours but not with
rye meals; why don't you use the meal instead of the flour?
Beside AFAIK most sourdough bakes in Australia used rye meal in natural
sourdough not specific rye flour such as dark or white.
If you are using a whole rye flour you are likely to get consistency
than if you use either dark or light rye flour or meal.
Besides the critters seems to be robust in rye meals than in rye flours
in my experience..
If you don't have the meal try combining the rye flour with whole
wheat meal and it tends to invigorate the rye based culture in my
observation.
I tried this a few times when we were in low supply of rye meal in the
bakery and used wholewheat meal/rye flour blend instead of 100% rye
meal to refresh the culture and it works!
If the flavor appears to be less rye but we added some nondiastatic
rye malt flour to improve the taste.
Another way to increase the tang was to ferment the starter at lower
temperature but at slightly higher hydration but we have to allow the
critters to "fast " or use the available nutrients by just stirring
it up instead of refreshing it with flour and water and allowing it to
stand for 12-24 hours sufficient stirring every 8 hours..
.. Some times we add some wheat germ or diastatic malt to boost
activity of the wheat meal/ rye meal refreshed culture and it often
works in our starter.

BTW,
What kind of gernan rye flour are you using? Does it ihave any specs,
is it fine or coarse, light or dark,?


Roy

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 18:24:49 +1000, "Michael" >
wrote:

>I run a small bakery which is specializing in rye breads.
Well, study up a bit of microbiology then.
>
>This year in Australia we have been in a terrible drought which badly
>affected rye plantations. The situation has become so serious that in fact
>Australia has been forced to buy German rye flour because there is no longer
>local stock available. The introduction of this new flour manifested a
>disaster for my bakery. The sour made of this German rye has dramatically
>lesser acidity, and it diminishes daily!
>
>As a result of this reduced amount of lactic and other acids in the dough,
>the quality of the bread has severely worsened.
The hotter the weather, the sourer the dough. The
lactobacillus need a higher temperature than the yeast.
>
>The pure cultures of yeast and lactobacilli are unavailable in Australia and
>I have to rely on trying making a new sour with wild organisms witch is time
>a consuming and uncertain process. (Particularly taking into account that
>the new flour was unsuccessful initially anyway)
>
>I have already tried to refresh the sour using yeast, but to no avail.
What do you mean by "refresh the sour using yeast" ?
Did you read the faq ?
>
>If anyone could help me with my problem and give me any advice I would be
>very grateful.
I suggest reading the faq.
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html
and
http://samartha.net/SD/
Should help too
>
>Thanks,
>
>Michael
>
>
>
>
>

Michael wrote:
> I run a small bakery which is specializing in rye breads.
>
> This year in Australia we have been in a terrible drought which badly
> affected rye plantations. The situation has become so serious that in fact
> Australia has been forced to buy German rye flour because there is no longer
> local stock available. The introduction of this new flour manifested a
> disaster for my bakery. The sour made of this German rye has dramatically
> lesser acidity, and it diminishes daily!

You must have been operating your sourdough culture in some borderline
territory that it gets thrown off in the way you describe.

A well maintained sourdough starter is very stable and unlikely to be
affected by changing flours.

>
> As a result of this reduced amount of lactic and other acids in the dough,
> the quality of the bread has severely worsened.
>
> The pure cultures of yeast and lactobacilli are unavailable in Australia and

IMO, this would not help you a bit at this point since you are having
problems with a normal normal sourdough starter. Working with pure
cultures to make bread looks much more complicated.

> I have to rely on trying making a new sour with wild organisms witch is time
> a consuming and uncertain process. (Particularly taking into account that
> the new flour was unsuccessful initially anyway)
>
> I have already tried to refresh the sour using yeast, but to no avail.
>
> If anyone could help me with my problem and give me any advice I would be
> very grateful.

Getting your old starter back into shape may be a good idea since you
seem to have it going for a longer time and established organisms should
be there.

If you would describe how you were handling your starter with the
Australian flour, it could give some insights.

Like amounts, hydrations, temperatures, flour multiplications between
stages.

What you have written so much on information: lack of acidity,
refreshing the sours with yeast, brewing 5 batches, running it for 15
hours at 30 - 32 C does not represent anything substantial to get an
idea what is going on.

Samartha

Since Germans make extremely good sourdough all the time, the only
remaining conclusion is that your particular batch of flour may have
been defective in some way or some that other unknown factor has
occurred.

Do you have only one source of this German flour? How about trying
another source. If the first batch was defective in some way, surely
not all German flour is created equal.

Normal compositiom of my sour is 50% flour, 20% old sour, 30% water. It is
kept at 28 - 32 C for 12 h and fed every 24 h.
The German flour is very fine and the only writing on the bag I could find
is "Der Grune Punkt"
Michael
"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1124198722.28217.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...

>
> You must have been operating your sourdough culture in some borderline
> territory that it gets thrown off in the way you describe.
>
> A well maintained sourdough starter is very stable and unlikely to be
> affected by changing flours.
>
>>
>> As a result of this reduced amount of lactic and other acids in the
>> dough, the quality of the bread has severely worsened.
>>
>> The pure cultures of yeast and lactobacilli are unavailable in Australia
>> and
>
> IMO, this would not help you a bit at this point since you are having
> problems with a normal normal sourdough starter. Working with pure
> cultures to make bread looks much more complicated.
>
>> I have to rely on trying making a new sour with wild organisms witch is
>> time a consuming and uncertain process. (Particularly taking into account
>> that the new flour was unsuccessful initially anyway)
>>
>> I have already tried to refresh the sour using yeast, but to no avail.
>>
>> If anyone could help me with my problem and give me any advice I would be
>> very grateful.
>
> Getting your old starter back into shape may be a good idea since you seem
> to have it going for a longer time and established organisms should be
> there.
>
> If you would describe how you were handling your starter with the
> Australian flour, it could give some insights.
>
> Like amounts, hydrations, temperatures, flour multiplications between
> stages.
>
> What you have written so much on information: lack of acidity, refreshing
> the sours with yeast, brewing 5 batches, running it for 15 hours at 30 -
> 32 C does not represent anything substantial to get an idea what is going
> on.
>
> Samartha
>
>
>

Michael wrote:

> Normal compositiom of my sour is 50% flour, 20% old sour, 30% water. It is
>kept at 28 - 32 C for 12 h and fed every 24 h.
>The German flour is very fine and the only writing on the bag I could find
>is "Der Grune Punkt"
>Michael
>

So, you are keeping your starter at about 60% hydration, which is a bit
stiff, but which should add to the sourness of the starter. A low
hydration like this should also mean that the starter should take a long
time to consume the starches in the feeding.

The temperature, about 82 to 90F, on the other hand, is a bit high, and
should cause the starter to digest the starches more quickly.

Personally, I'd rather see a lower temperature. If you look at the
chart at the bottom of the page at
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/risetime.html you'll see that the
temperatures you are using favor the yeast component of the symbiosis.
A lower temperature, and a more tightly controlled temperature, in the
68F(20C) to 75F(24C) might be a better choice.

Also, I have reservations about feeding a starter, even one at 60%
hydration, only once a day. I'd up the feedings to twice a day.

Mike

>Der Grune Punkt' t IMO that is related (or mean ) the green dot . about environmentally friendly packaging it has nothing to do with the flour descripion .<grin>

I am thinking that ....
Yuo might be using flour that is already suited for garbage disposal
?<grin>.

Michael wrote:
> Normal compositiom of my sour is 50% flour, 20% old sour, 30% water. It is
> kept at 28 - 32 C for 12 h and fed every 24 h.
> The German flour is very fine and the only writing on the bag I could find
> is "Der Grune Punkt"
> Michael

The "bad flour" issue aside, let's see what your starter procedure looks
like.

Not yet clear is what happens after 12 hours until 24 hours where you
feed again. Do you keep it at room temperature, do you put it in a
cooler, fridge or what is happening?

From what you describe, you have a flour multiplication of 4.17 in your
step over a time of 24 (or 12) hours at a decent temperature and a 60 %
hydration.

Please compare this to the 2. Refreshment step on my DM3 calculator:

http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SD-Dtm-3-02.cgi

There you will see for a similar hydration (66 %) and a somewhat lower
temperature for a 15 - 24 hour growing period a flour multiplication of
12.9 % (Factor * column). That's about three times as much as what you have.

From that, I guess that your starter is way overripe, very sour and no
longer even near optimal in it's rising abilities.

To give you maybe another idea, consider this: The starter coming out of
the DM3 procedure has a processing time of maybe 3 or 4 hours, if it
goes beyond that, it gets too sour and the performance (rising, taste)
diminishes. I see a noticable difference in the bread when there is two
hours between processing two batches from the same starter.

The "Grüne Punkt" (green dot) on your package probably has something to
do with disposing the bag meaning it can go into another trash bin for
recyclables.

The rye flour definitely can be an issue besides your starter procedure.
To check your rye flour in the green dot bag, it may be a good idea to
do a baking test by souring it without a starter and driving it with
yeast. In that manner, you isolate the two factors (flour and starter
procedure) and get an idea how it performs and if it is indeed an issue.

Maybe you can get some ideas from the

http://samartha.net/SD/tests/baking/

Hope this helps.

Samartha

Michael wrote:
> I run a small bakery which is specializing in rye breads.
>
> This year in Australia we have been in a terrible drought which badly
> affected rye plantations. The situation has become so serious that in fact
> Australia has been forced to buy German rye flour because there is no longer
> local stock available. The introduction of this new flour manifested a
> disaster for my bakery. The sour made of this German rye has dramatically
> lesser acidity, and it diminishes daily!
>
> As a result of this reduced amount of lactic and other acids in the dough,
> the quality of the bread has severely worsened.
>
> The pure cultures of yeast and lactobacilli are unavailable in Australia and
> I have to rely on trying making a new sour with wild organisms witch is time
> a consuming and uncertain process. (Particularly taking into account that
> the new flour was unsuccessful initially anyway)
>
> I have already tried to refresh the sour using yeast, but to no avail.
>
> If anyone could help me with my problem and give me any advice I would be
> very grateful.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael

Michael a new user (first posting to this group )
Send a private mail to spamlister with which state your in etc
Interesting problem you have so Grains research may assist .
Cheers
P

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:01:45 +0800, Pits > wrote:
>Michael a new user (first posting to this group )
>Send a private mail to spamlister with which state your in etc
>Interesting problem you have so Grains research may assist .
>Cheers
>P
Mike, I think a spambot caught you...
Though this spamlister guy did once do a marginally on topic
post a few days ago..
Well, if it is a bot, its an honest bot. Spamlister ......eheh
[]'s