Well I certainly learned a lesson today.

I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
tight.

Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.

Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
experience this?

I'm bummed.

Dan

Same thing happened to me right as I was trying to remove the sealed
bung. Look at a 54L demi-john this way : it has the same thickness as
a 750L bottle, but 70 times the volume !!!!!! So just immagine how
weak it is compared to a bottle. Not to mention the fact that at 30$
CAD, you can not expect to have a Murano glass quality either !

My advice, always put airbung.

(Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com>...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

Same thing happened to me right as I was trying to remove the sealed
bung. Look at a 54L demi-john this way : it has the same thickness as
a 750L bottle, but 70 times the volume !!!!!! So just immagine how
weak it is compared to a bottle. Not to mention the fact that at 30$
CAD, you can not expect to have a Murano glass quality either !

My advice, always put airbung.

(Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com>...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

Same thing happened to me right as I was trying to remove the sealed
bung. Look at a 54L demi-john this way : it has the same thickness as
a 750L bottle, but 70 times the volume !!!!!! So just immagine how
weak it is compared to a bottle. Not to mention the fact that at 30$
CAD, you can not expect to have a Murano glass quality either !

My advice, always put airbung.

(Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com>...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

I'm sorry to hear that; it is a lot to lose. I've had my share of bottles
pop. After spending way to much time cleaning up the messes, I decided
never again. Now, I always stabilize. I don't have a solid bung in my
wine-making supplies - I always use a bung and airlock. I had one batch
which drove me nuts, I would be ready to bottle and it would start perking
again. Then it would stop, then start again....
Darlene

"Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
om...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

I'm sorry to hear that; it is a lot to lose. I've had my share of bottles
pop. After spending way to much time cleaning up the messes, I decided
never again. Now, I always stabilize. I don't have a solid bung in my
wine-making supplies - I always use a bung and airlock. I had one batch
which drove me nuts, I would be ready to bottle and it would start perking
again. Then it would stop, then start again....
Darlene

"Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
om...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

I'm sorry to hear that; it is a lot to lose. I've had my share of bottles
pop. After spending way to much time cleaning up the messes, I decided
never again. Now, I always stabilize. I don't have a solid bung in my
wine-making supplies - I always use a bung and airlock. I had one batch
which drove me nuts, I would be ready to bottle and it would start perking
again. Then it would stop, then start again....
Darlene

"Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
om...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

(Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com>...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

Not that it changes anything, but it's quite possible the demijohn
exploded because the wine was expanding rather than contracting. If
your romm was set at constant 50, the Cab would go to that level in 1
day, 2 at most. So after that it wouldn't have any reason to contract
further. It sounds from your description that you had airlock on for a
while before the solid bung. So it's possible the Cab was still
fermenting and the generated CO2 pressure exploded the carboy.

I can't say about demijohns, but I routinely move carboys with a solid
bung into a fridge for cold stabilization. I've also heard of people
using a vacuum pump on carboys to degass without breakage. But yeah,
the glass on demijohns looks pretty fragile to me, so I can see how
there could be a problem, especially it there was a hidden fault in
the glass.

Pp

(Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com>...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

Not that it changes anything, but it's quite possible the demijohn
exploded because the wine was expanding rather than contracting. If
your romm was set at constant 50, the Cab would go to that level in 1
day, 2 at most. So after that it wouldn't have any reason to contract
further. It sounds from your description that you had airlock on for a
while before the solid bung. So it's possible the Cab was still
fermenting and the generated CO2 pressure exploded the carboy.

I can't say about demijohns, but I routinely move carboys with a solid
bung into a fridge for cold stabilization. I've also heard of people
using a vacuum pump on carboys to degass without breakage. But yeah,
the glass on demijohns looks pretty fragile to me, so I can see how
there could be a problem, especially it there was a hidden fault in
the glass.

Pp

(Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com>...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

Not that it changes anything, but it's quite possible the demijohn
exploded because the wine was expanding rather than contracting. If
your romm was set at constant 50, the Cab would go to that level in 1
day, 2 at most. So after that it wouldn't have any reason to contract
further. It sounds from your description that you had airlock on for a
while before the solid bung. So it's possible the Cab was still
fermenting and the generated CO2 pressure exploded the carboy.

I can't say about demijohns, but I routinely move carboys with a solid
bung into a fridge for cold stabilization. I've also heard of people
using a vacuum pump on carboys to degass without breakage. But yeah,
the glass on demijohns looks pretty fragile to me, so I can see how
there could be a problem, especially it there was a hidden fault in
the glass.

Pp

I guess I posted on this thread, didn't mean to.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't fermenting any more. It might have warmed
up a few degrees. There must have been a hidden flaw. I've had
demijohns with solid bungs outside to cold stabilize them without
problem.

Demijohns actually have pretty thin glass compared to bottles. One of
my demijohns is green glass. When I filled with with fermenting
Sauvignon Blanc wine, there was a thin spot on the glass that became
readily apparent with the brown wine in it. It is scary actually now
that I broke one.



(pp) wrote in message . com>...
> (Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com>...
> > Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
> >
> > I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> > bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> > had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> > fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> > air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> > volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> > tight.
> >
> > Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> > the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> > temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> > carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
> >
> > Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> > changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> > experience this?
> >
> > I'm bummed.
> >
> > Dan
>
> Not that it changes anything, but it's quite possible the demijohn
> exploded because the wine was expanding rather than contracting. If
> your romm was set at constant 50, the Cab would go to that level in 1
> day, 2 at most. So after that it wouldn't have any reason to contract
> further. It sounds from your description that you had airlock on for a
> while before the solid bung. So it's possible the Cab was still
> fermenting and the generated CO2 pressure exploded the carboy.
>
> I can't say about demijohns, but I routinely move carboys with a solid
> bung into a fridge for cold stabilization. I've also heard of people
> using a vacuum pump on carboys to degass without breakage. But yeah,
> the glass on demijohns looks pretty fragile to me, so I can see how
> there could be a problem, especially it there was a hidden fault in
> the glass.
>
> Pp

I guess I posted on this thread, didn't mean to.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't fermenting any more. It might have warmed
up a few degrees. There must have been a hidden flaw. I've had
demijohns with solid bungs outside to cold stabilize them without
problem.

Demijohns actually have pretty thin glass compared to bottles. One of
my demijohns is green glass. When I filled with with fermenting
Sauvignon Blanc wine, there was a thin spot on the glass that became
readily apparent with the brown wine in it. It is scary actually now
that I broke one.



(pp) wrote in message . com>...
> (Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com>...
> > Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
> >
> > I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> > bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> > had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> > fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> > air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> > volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> > tight.
> >
> > Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> > the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> > temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> > carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
> >
> > Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> > changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> > experience this?
> >
> > I'm bummed.
> >
> > Dan
>
> Not that it changes anything, but it's quite possible the demijohn
> exploded because the wine was expanding rather than contracting. If
> your romm was set at constant 50, the Cab would go to that level in 1
> day, 2 at most. So after that it wouldn't have any reason to contract
> further. It sounds from your description that you had airlock on for a
> while before the solid bung. So it's possible the Cab was still
> fermenting and the generated CO2 pressure exploded the carboy.
>
> I can't say about demijohns, but I routinely move carboys with a solid
> bung into a fridge for cold stabilization. I've also heard of people
> using a vacuum pump on carboys to degass without breakage. But yeah,
> the glass on demijohns looks pretty fragile to me, so I can see how
> there could be a problem, especially it there was a hidden fault in
> the glass.
>
> Pp

I guess I posted on this thread, didn't mean to.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't fermenting any more. It might have warmed
up a few degrees. There must have been a hidden flaw. I've had
demijohns with solid bungs outside to cold stabilize them without
problem.

Demijohns actually have pretty thin glass compared to bottles. One of
my demijohns is green glass. When I filled with with fermenting
Sauvignon Blanc wine, there was a thin spot on the glass that became
readily apparent with the brown wine in it. It is scary actually now
that I broke one.



(pp) wrote in message . com>...
> (Dan Emerson) wrote in message . com>...
> > Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
> >
> > I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> > bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> > had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> > fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> > air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> > volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> > tight.
> >
> > Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> > the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> > temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> > carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
> >
> > Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> > changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> > experience this?
> >
> > I'm bummed.
> >
> > Dan
>
> Not that it changes anything, but it's quite possible the demijohn
> exploded because the wine was expanding rather than contracting. If
> your romm was set at constant 50, the Cab would go to that level in 1
> day, 2 at most. So after that it wouldn't have any reason to contract
> further. It sounds from your description that you had airlock on for a
> while before the solid bung. So it's possible the Cab was still
> fermenting and the generated CO2 pressure exploded the carboy.
>
> I can't say about demijohns, but I routinely move carboys with a solid
> bung into a fridge for cold stabilization. I've also heard of people
> using a vacuum pump on carboys to degass without breakage. But yeah,
> the glass on demijohns looks pretty fragile to me, so I can see how
> there could be a problem, especially it there was a hidden fault in
> the glass.
>
> Pp

"Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
om...
> Well I certainly learned a lesson today.
>
> I had a cabernet all finished sitting in a demijohn, just waiting a
> bit to age and bottle. From last years harvest from Lanza Ranch. I
> had put it in a room with some Sauvignon Blanc that is just finishing
> fermentation, so I was keeping the room cool, about 50 degrees. The
> air lock on the cabernet kept draining into the wine as it changed
> volume due to changing temperature. So I put a bung in it. Good and
> tight.
>
> Today my wife calls me at work to say that there is cabernet all over
> the floor! The demijohn cracked, apparently due to pressure due to
> temperature changes. 54 liters of fine wine all over the carpet. The
> carpet was crap and due to be tossed anyway.
>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?

I never bung anything, ever; airlocks on anything not bottled.
If the demijohn was glass, yes, the strain builds very quickly and you
hear "PUNG! whooooosh...." as the glass breaks and the wine bursts out.
>
> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

"Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
m...
> I guess I posted on this thread, didn't mean to.
>
> I'm pretty sure it wasn't fermenting any more. It might have warmed
> up a few degrees. There must have been a hidden flaw. I've had
> demijohns with solid bungs outside to cold stabilize them without
> problem.
>
> Demijohns actually have pretty thin glass compared to bottles. One of
> my demijohns is green glass. When I filled with with fermenting
> Sauvignon Blanc wine, there was a thin spot on the glass that became
> readily apparent with the brown wine in it. It is scary actually now
> that I broke one.

54 litres is way to big for me to trust any glass bottle; my 23 is about
perfect IMO. If you can't easily move it around by hand, I'd just forget
about it..... That thing's got to weigh 70kg total when filled with must or
wine.

"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> I'm sorry to hear that; it is a lot to lose. I've had my share of bottles
> pop. After spending way to much time cleaning up the messes, I decided
> never again. Now, I always stabilize.

Stabilizing a dry wine with sorbate isn't necessary, but sulfiting is. His
carboy popped due to pressure change because it was topped full and bunged
tight. Probably blew the bottom out. I've had that happen before, so now I
try to avoid using glass carboys. You won't have that happen with stainless
kegs.

Tom S

"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> I'm sorry to hear that; it is a lot to lose. I've had my share of bottles
> pop. After spending way to much time cleaning up the messes, I decided
> never again. Now, I always stabilize.

Stabilizing a dry wine with sorbate isn't necessary, but sulfiting is. His
carboy popped due to pressure change because it was topped full and bunged
tight. Probably blew the bottom out. I've had that happen before, so now I
try to avoid using glass carboys. You won't have that happen with stainless
kegs.

Tom S

Tom,
I appreciate your point that it could be something other than fermentation
beginning again. I have noticed that the wine in my glass carboys contract
and expand depending on the temperature, but I always put a bung & airlock
on them. I guess I don't trust anything I make to put a solid bung in it,
but I gather some do. I'll have to go back and look at the recipes from my
first batches and see how dry they were. I didn't stabilize at all, and I
had problems. Since I started to sulfite and stabilize, I have not had a
problem. Thanks.
Darlene
Wisconsin

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Dar V" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm sorry to hear that; it is a lot to lose. I've had my share of bottles
>> pop. After spending way to much time cleaning up the messes, I decided
>> never again. Now, I always stabilize.
>
> Stabilizing a dry wine with sorbate isn't necessary, but sulfiting is.
> His carboy popped due to pressure change because it was topped full and
> bunged tight. Probably blew the bottom out. I've had that happen before,
> so now I try to avoid using glass carboys. You won't have that happen
> with stainless kegs.
>
> Tom S
>

"Dan Emerson" > wrote in message
om...

>
> Should a demijohn be able to take the small stresses from
temperature
> changes when it is bunged tight? Seems weak to me. Anybody else
> experience this?
>

How much headspace was there? If the liquid expanded to the point
that it was directly in contact with the bung then tremendous pressure
can build up since liquids are not (for all practical purposes)
compressible. This was demonstrated to me once in a chemistry class.
Fill a flask to the very top with liquid and insert a stopper, or
rather try to. A rather light tap on the stopper was sufficient to
burst the flask since the shock was immediately and directly
transmitted to the walls of the flask.

--arne

> I'm bummed.
>
> Dan

"Dar V" > wrote in message >...
> Tom,
> I appreciate your point that it could be something other than fermentation
> beginning again. I have noticed that the wine in my glass carboys contract
> and expand depending on the temperature, but I always put a bung & airlock
> on them. I guess I don't trust anything I make to put a solid bung in it,
> but I gather some do. I'll have to go back and look at the recipes from my
> first batches and see how dry they were. I didn't stabilize at all, and I
> had problems. Since I started to sulfite and stabilize, I have not had a
> problem. Thanks.
> Darlene
> Wisconsin
>

I doubt it's just a temperature difference. I put my carboys with a
solid bung into a fridge to cold stabilize, so they drop rapidly from
22C or so to 3C within a couple of days. And then back again when I
take them out. I've never had a broken carboy this way. The conditions
described in the original post are nowhere close to these type of
temperature changes. I'd suspect a fault in the glass or some type of
instability in the wine (or both).

Also, unless the solid bung is "glued in", it should come out before
the glass gives, so expansion shouldn't cause this anw.

Inverson's book recommends putting solid bung on the wine pretty much
right after it's finished fermenting. He's actually using it - among
other things - to check for microbial stability. I've stopped doing
this now, but more because of degassing problems than fear of losing
the carboys. I'm using the Ferm-Rite airlocks which are great that way
- they basically combine a solid bung with 1-way airlock
functionality, best of both worlds.

Pp

I appreciate your point as well. We all look at what we read here and try
to decipher what we think it could be based on our own experiences. I learn
something new every day.
Darlene

"pp" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dar V" > wrote in message
> >...
>> Tom,
>> I appreciate your point that it could be something other than
>> fermentation
>> beginning again. I have noticed that the wine in my glass carboys
>> contract
>> and expand depending on the temperature, but I always put a bung &
>> airlock
>> on them. I guess I don't trust anything I make to put a solid bung in
>> it,
>> but I gather some do. I'll have to go back and look at the recipes from
>> my
>> first batches and see how dry they were. I didn't stabilize at all, and
>> I
>> had problems. Since I started to sulfite and stabilize, I have not had a
>> problem. Thanks.
>> Darlene
>> Wisconsin
>>
>
> I doubt it's just a temperature difference. I put my carboys with a
> solid bung into a fridge to cold stabilize, so they drop rapidly from
> 22C or so to 3C within a couple of days. And then back again when I
> take them out. I've never had a broken carboy this way. The conditions
> described in the original post are nowhere close to these type of
> temperature changes. I'd suspect a fault in the glass or some type of
> instability in the wine (or both).
>
> Also, unless the solid bung is "glued in", it should come out before
> the glass gives, so expansion shouldn't cause this anw.
>
> Inverson's book recommends putting solid bung on the wine pretty much
> right after it's finished fermenting. He's actually using it - among
> other things - to check for microbial stability. I've stopped doing
> this now, but more because of degassing problems than fear of losing
> the carboys. I'm using the Ferm-Rite airlocks which are great that way
> - they basically combine a solid bung with 1-way airlock
> functionality, best of both worlds.
>
> Pp

I appreciate your point as well. We all look at what we read here and try
to decipher what we think it could be based on our own experiences. I learn
something new every day.
Darlene

"pp" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dar V" > wrote in message
> >...
>> Tom,
>> I appreciate your point that it could be something other than
>> fermentation
>> beginning again. I have noticed that the wine in my glass carboys
>> contract
>> and expand depending on the temperature, but I always put a bung &
>> airlock
>> on them. I guess I don't trust anything I make to put a solid bung in
>> it,
>> but I gather some do. I'll have to go back and look at the recipes from
>> my
>> first batches and see how dry they were. I didn't stabilize at all, and
>> I
>> had problems. Since I started to sulfite and stabilize, I have not had a
>> problem. Thanks.
>> Darlene
>> Wisconsin
>>
>
> I doubt it's just a temperature difference. I put my carboys with a
> solid bung into a fridge to cold stabilize, so they drop rapidly from
> 22C or so to 3C within a couple of days. And then back again when I
> take them out. I've never had a broken carboy this way. The conditions
> described in the original post are nowhere close to these type of
> temperature changes. I'd suspect a fault in the glass or some type of
> instability in the wine (or both).
>
> Also, unless the solid bung is "glued in", it should come out before
> the glass gives, so expansion shouldn't cause this anw.
>
> Inverson's book recommends putting solid bung on the wine pretty much
> right after it's finished fermenting. He's actually using it - among
> other things - to check for microbial stability. I've stopped doing
> this now, but more because of degassing problems than fear of losing
> the carboys. I'm using the Ferm-Rite airlocks which are great that way
> - they basically combine a solid bung with 1-way airlock
> functionality, best of both worlds.
>
> Pp

"pp" > wrote in message
om...
> I doubt it's just a temperature difference. I put my carboys with a
> solid bung into a fridge to cold stabilize, so they drop rapidly from
> 22C or so to 3C within a couple of days. And then back again when I
> take them out. I've never had a broken carboy this way. The conditions
> described in the original post are nowhere close to these type of
> temperature changes.

That's right, but you're missing the point. In your case you _lowered_ the
temperature. Although they are not recommended for vacuum, carboys can
stand a good deal more negative pressure than positive. Think of their
shape as an arch and you'll probably get what I mean.

OTOH, carboys make very poor pressure vessels.

> Also, unless the solid bung is "glued in", it should come out before
> the glass gives, so expansion shouldn't cause this anw.

Shouldn't is a long way from won't. Those white gum rubber bungs can be
_extremely_ tenacious if they are well seated in the neck of a clean glass
carboy. Sometimes they stick so well that they actually come apart when
removed. I've personally lost at least two carboys that way when the
container warmed a few degrees and the wine had nowhere to go until it blew
out the bottom or side of the carboy. This might not have happened if I'd
left a couple of inches of headspace in the carboy, but I can't bring myself
to do that.

Tom S

"pp" > wrote in message
om...
> I doubt it's just a temperature difference. I put my carboys with a
> solid bung into a fridge to cold stabilize, so they drop rapidly from
> 22C or so to 3C within a couple of days. And then back again when I
> take them out. I've never had a broken carboy this way. The conditions
> described in the original post are nowhere close to these type of
> temperature changes.

That's right, but you're missing the point. In your case you _lowered_ the
temperature. Although they are not recommended for vacuum, carboys can
stand a good deal more negative pressure than positive. Think of their
shape as an arch and you'll probably get what I mean.

OTOH, carboys make very poor pressure vessels.

> Also, unless the solid bung is "glued in", it should come out before
> the glass gives, so expansion shouldn't cause this anw.

Shouldn't is a long way from won't. Those white gum rubber bungs can be
_extremely_ tenacious if they are well seated in the neck of a clean glass
carboy. Sometimes they stick so well that they actually come apart when
removed. I've personally lost at least two carboys that way when the
container warmed a few degrees and the wine had nowhere to go until it blew
out the bottom or side of the carboy. This might not have happened if I'd
left a couple of inches of headspace in the carboy, but I can't bring myself
to do that.

Tom S

"pp" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dar V" > wrote in message
> >...
>> Tom,
>> I appreciate your point that it could be something other than
>> fermentation
>> beginning again. I have noticed that the wine in my glass carboys
>> contract
>> and expand depending on the temperature, but I always put a bung &
>> airlock
>> on them. I guess I don't trust anything I make to put a solid bung in
>> it,
>> but I gather some do. I'll have to go back and look at the recipes from
>> my
>> first batches and see how dry they were. I didn't stabilize at all, and
>> I
>> had problems. Since I started to sulfite and stabilize, I have not had a
>> problem. Thanks.
>> Darlene
>> Wisconsin
>>
>
> I doubt it's just a temperature difference. I put my carboys with a
> solid bung into a fridge to cold stabilize, so they drop rapidly from
> 22C or so to 3C within a couple of days. And then back again when I
> take them out. I've never had a broken carboy this way. The conditions
> described in the original post are nowhere close to these type of
> temperature changes. I'd suspect a fault in the glass or some type of
> instability in the wine (or both).
>
> Also, unless the solid bung is "glued in", it should come out before
> the glass gives, so expansion shouldn't cause this anw.
>
> Inverson's book recommends putting solid bung on the wine pretty much
> right after it's finished fermenting. He's actually using it - among
> other things - to check for microbial stability. I've stopped doing
> this now, but more because of degassing problems than fear of losing
> the carboys. I'm using the Ferm-Rite airlocks which are great that way
> - they basically combine a solid bung with 1-way airlock
> functionality, best of both worlds.
>
> Pp

This is simple hydraulics. If you have a half inch or an inch of head space
then the gas in the head space would absorb the expansion or contraction of
the fluid. If you only have 1/8 inch then there is not much gas and you
could see several atmospheres of pressure change. A good carboy might
withstand this, but if it has ever been bumped and if it has a flaw, then it
may well fail. I have proposed that this could happen in the past and been
told by others that it would not. I never trust it. Sounds like it can
happen.

>
> This is simple hydraulics. If you have a half inch or an inch of head space
> then the gas in the head space would absorb the expansion or contraction of
> the fluid. If you only have 1/8 inch then there is not much gas and you
> could see several atmospheres of pressure change. A good carboy might
> withstand this, but if it has ever been bumped and if it has a flaw, then it
> may well fail. I have proposed that this could happen in the past and been
> told by others that it would not. I never trust it. Sounds like it can
> happen.

Ahh, but my days of high scool physics are long past, so there is
nothing simple for me in hydraulics. It sounds like the main
difference is indeed in the head space - Tom says he doesn't really
leave any, but I can never force the solid bung in unless there is at
least 1/2-1 inch headspace, so there is a built in safery measure
there for me. Ah, engineering... never ceases to amaze me.

Pp

>
> This is simple hydraulics. If you have a half inch or an inch of head space
> then the gas in the head space would absorb the expansion or contraction of
> the fluid. If you only have 1/8 inch then there is not much gas and you
> could see several atmospheres of pressure change. A good carboy might
> withstand this, but if it has ever been bumped and if it has a flaw, then it
> may well fail. I have proposed that this could happen in the past and been
> told by others that it would not. I never trust it. Sounds like it can
> happen.

Ahh, but my days of high scool physics are long past, so there is
nothing simple for me in hydraulics. It sounds like the main
difference is indeed in the head space - Tom says he doesn't really
leave any, but I can never force the solid bung in unless there is at
least 1/2-1 inch headspace, so there is a built in safery measure
there for me. Ah, engineering... never ceases to amaze me.

Pp

Ray,
This has been an interesting discussion. When a carboy fails, there's
got to be some reason(s) for it, and there seems to be a number of
possibilities. It could also be a combination of things to cause such a
failure. It is sad, because this winemaker lost a lot of wine. I think we
all find a comfort zone in our winemaking. Something works, so we continue
to do it. If something doesn't work, then we do things differently so it
doesn't happen again.
I can only base my observations on what happens around my house. Just
because it hasn't happened to me, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. My only
hope is that Dan will take all of our observations, and do something a bit
different next time so he doesn't lose another batch.
;o) Darlene
Wisconsin

"Ray Calvert" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "pp" > wrote in message
> om...
>> "Dar V" > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> Tom,
>>> I appreciate your point that it could be something other than
>>> fermentation
>>> beginning again. I have noticed that the wine in my glass carboys
>>> contract
>>> and expand depending on the temperature, but I always put a bung &
>>> airlock
>>> on them. I guess I don't trust anything I make to put a solid bung in
>>> it,
>>> but I gather some do. I'll have to go back and look at the recipes from
>>> my
>>> first batches and see how dry they were. I didn't stabilize at all, and
>>> I
>>> had problems. Since I started to sulfite and stabilize, I have not had
>>> a
>>> problem. Thanks.
>>> Darlene
>>> Wisconsin
>>>
>>
>> I doubt it's just a temperature difference. I put my carboys with a
>> solid bung into a fridge to cold stabilize, so they drop rapidly from
>> 22C or so to 3C within a couple of days. And then back again when I
>> take them out. I've never had a broken carboy this way. The conditions
>> described in the original post are nowhere close to these type of
>> temperature changes. I'd suspect a fault in the glass or some type of
>> instability in the wine (or both).
>>
>> Also, unless the solid bung is "glued in", it should come out before
>> the glass gives, so expansion shouldn't cause this anw.
>>
>> Inverson's book recommends putting solid bung on the wine pretty much
>> right after it's finished fermenting. He's actually using it - among
>> other things - to check for microbial stability. I've stopped doing
>> this now, but more because of degassing problems than fear of losing
>> the carboys. I'm using the Ferm-Rite airlocks which are great that way
>> - they basically combine a solid bung with 1-way airlock
>> functionality, best of both worlds.
>>
>> Pp
>
> This is simple hydraulics. If you have a half inch or an inch of head
> space then the gas in the head space would absorb the expansion or
> contraction of the fluid. If you only have 1/8 inch then there is not
> much gas and you could see several atmospheres of pressure change. A good
> carboy might withstand this, but if it has ever been bumped and if it has
> a flaw, then it may well fail. I have proposed that this could happen in
> the past and been told by others that it would not. I never trust it.
> Sounds like it can happen.
>

Ray,
This has been an interesting discussion. When a carboy fails, there's
got to be some reason(s) for it, and there seems to be a number of
possibilities. It could also be a combination of things to cause such a
failure. It is sad, because this winemaker lost a lot of wine. I think we
all find a comfort zone in our winemaking. Something works, so we continue
to do it. If something doesn't work, then we do things differently so it
doesn't happen again.
I can only base my observations on what happens around my house. Just
because it hasn't happened to me, doesn't mean it couldn't happen. My only
hope is that Dan will take all of our observations, and do something a bit
different next time so he doesn't lose another batch.
;o) Darlene
Wisconsin

"Ray Calvert" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "pp" > wrote in message
> om...
>> "Dar V" > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> Tom,
>>> I appreciate your point that it could be something other than
>>> fermentation
>>> beginning again. I have noticed that the wine in my glass carboys
>>> contract
>>> and expand depending on the temperature, but I always put a bung &
>>> airlock
>>> on them. I guess I don't trust anything I make to put a solid bung in
>>> it,
>>> but I gather some do. I'll have to go back and look at the recipes from
>>> my
>>> first batches and see how dry they were. I didn't stabilize at all, and
>>> I
>>> had problems. Since I started to sulfite and stabilize, I have not had
>>> a
>>> problem. Thanks.
>>> Darlene
>>> Wisconsin
>>>
>>
>> I doubt it's just a temperature difference. I put my carboys with a
>> solid bung into a fridge to cold stabilize, so they drop rapidly from
>> 22C or so to 3C within a couple of days. And then back again when I
>> take them out. I've never had a broken carboy this way. The conditions
>> described in the original post are nowhere close to these type of
>> temperature changes. I'd suspect a fault in the glass or some type of
>> instability in the wine (or both).
>>
>> Also, unless the solid bung is "glued in", it should come out before
>> the glass gives, so expansion shouldn't cause this anw.
>>
>> Inverson's book recommends putting solid bung on the wine pretty much
>> right after it's finished fermenting. He's actually using it - among
>> other things - to check for microbial stability. I've stopped doing
>> this now, but more because of degassing problems than fear of losing
>> the carboys. I'm using the Ferm-Rite airlocks which are great that way
>> - they basically combine a solid bung with 1-way airlock
>> functionality, best of both worlds.
>>
>> Pp
>
> This is simple hydraulics. If you have a half inch or an inch of head
> space then the gas in the head space would absorb the expansion or
> contraction of the fluid. If you only have 1/8 inch then there is not
> much gas and you could see several atmospheres of pressure change. A good
> carboy might withstand this, but if it has ever been bumped and if it has
> a flaw, then it may well fail. I have proposed that this could happen in
> the past and been told by others that it would not. I never trust it.
> Sounds like it can happen.
>

"pp" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>> This is simple hydraulics. If you have a half inch or an inch of head
>> space
>> then the gas in the head space would absorb the expansion or contraction
>> of
>> the fluid. If you only have 1/8 inch then there is not much gas and you
>> could see several atmospheres of pressure change. A good carboy might
>> withstand this, but if it has ever been bumped and if it has a flaw, then
>> it
>> may well fail. I have proposed that this could happen in the past and
>> been
>> told by others that it would not. I never trust it. Sounds like it can
>> happen.
>
> Ahh, but my days of high scool physics are long past, so there is
> nothing simple for me in hydraulics. It sounds like the main
> difference is indeed in the head space - Tom says he doesn't really
> leave any, but I can never force the solid bung in unless there is at
> least 1/2-1 inch headspace, so there is a built in safery measure
> there for me. Ah, engineering... never ceases to amaze me.
>
> Pp

Okay, Simple is a stretch. Here are some comments. Anybody feel free to
jump in anytime they want.

In the range we are talking about liquid is essentially incompressible. Gas
is very compressible. So if your carboy changes temperature, the liquid
will expand or contract and the volume change must be absorbed by a change
in volume of the head space or the carboy is going to have to change it's
volume (break).

13% alcohol has an expansion coefficient of around 0.21 ml per liter per
degree C. This means that if the temperature goes up, 1 litter of wine will
expand to 1.00021 liter. (That is a novel way to make wine!)

If you have 23 liters, then the increase due to 1 deg. C is 0.21 * 23 = 4.9
ml. I will call this 5 ml.

Now if you push the bung in the carboy, when you start you might have 1/2
inch or about 2 cm of head space. You cannot compress this out of existence
so you cannot go to zero head space unless you let the gas bleed off around
the bung some way. Let us say you compress it down to 1/2 inch (about 1
cm). How much volume is this.

My 23 liter carboys are about 3 cm across at the top. Then the volume of
the head space is about 1 cm times the area of the opening which is
2*pi*radius squared. = 2 * 3.1415 * 1.5 = about 14 cc or 14 ml.

So we will have about 14 ml of air space at the top. If the temperature
changes by 1 deg. C then this will be compressed by 5 ml as given above.

Pressure change in a gas is calculated as P2 = P1 * V1 / V2.

If we assume that P1 = 1 atm. and V1 = 14 and V2 = (14-5) = 9 then
P2 = 1 * 14 / 9 = 1.55 atm
So 1 deg C rise in temp would increase the pressure by 0.55 atm.

A 2 degree C change would increase the pressure to 3.5 atm. Try the
calculation. This is why we use a low pressure bleed off valve called an
airlock.

Now if he only had 1/2 cm of head space, it would have been worse. If he
really had no head space, it would be catastrophic, or as he put it, a
disaster.

In this example I ignored the effect of temperature change on the gas itself
which would have been small and I ignored the expansion of the glass which,
also would have been small.

You can do the calculation for a drop in pressure as well.

See, it really is simple, right? ;o) I know you knew all this from physics
and had just forgotten it. Now you are running your own physics lab in your
home. I have seen physics labs low up before!

Ray

"pp" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>> This is simple hydraulics. If you have a half inch or an inch of head
>> space
>> then the gas in the head space would absorb the expansion or contraction
>> of
>> the fluid. If you only have 1/8 inch then there is not much gas and you
>> could see several atmospheres of pressure change. A good carboy might
>> withstand this, but if it has ever been bumped and if it has a flaw, then
>> it
>> may well fail. I have proposed that this could happen in the past and
>> been
>> told by others that it would not. I never trust it. Sounds like it can
>> happen.
>
> Ahh, but my days of high scool physics are long past, so there is
> nothing simple for me in hydraulics. It sounds like the main
> difference is indeed in the head space - Tom says he doesn't really
> leave any, but I can never force the solid bung in unless there is at
> least 1/2-1 inch headspace, so there is a built in safery measure
> there for me. Ah, engineering... never ceases to amaze me.
>
> Pp

Okay, Simple is a stretch. Here are some comments. Anybody feel free to
jump in anytime they want.

In the range we are talking about liquid is essentially incompressible. Gas
is very compressible. So if your carboy changes temperature, the liquid
will expand or contract and the volume change must be absorbed by a change
in volume of the head space or the carboy is going to have to change it's
volume (break).

13% alcohol has an expansion coefficient of around 0.21 ml per liter per
degree C. This means that if the temperature goes up, 1 litter of wine will
expand to 1.00021 liter. (That is a novel way to make wine!)

If you have 23 liters, then the increase due to 1 deg. C is 0.21 * 23 = 4.9
ml. I will call this 5 ml.

Now if you push the bung in the carboy, when you start you might have 1/2
inch or about 2 cm of head space. You cannot compress this out of existence
so you cannot go to zero head space unless you let the gas bleed off around
the bung some way. Let us say you compress it down to 1/2 inch (about 1
cm). How much volume is this.

My 23 liter carboys are about 3 cm across at the top. Then the volume of
the head space is about 1 cm times the area of the opening which is
2*pi*radius squared. = 2 * 3.1415 * 1.5 = about 14 cc or 14 ml.

So we will have about 14 ml of air space at the top. If the temperature
changes by 1 deg. C then this will be compressed by 5 ml as given above.

Pressure change in a gas is calculated as P2 = P1 * V1 / V2.

If we assume that P1 = 1 atm. and V1 = 14 and V2 = (14-5) = 9 then
P2 = 1 * 14 / 9 = 1.55 atm
So 1 deg C rise in temp would increase the pressure by 0.55 atm.

A 2 degree C change would increase the pressure to 3.5 atm. Try the
calculation. This is why we use a low pressure bleed off valve called an
airlock.

Now if he only had 1/2 cm of head space, it would have been worse. If he
really had no head space, it would be catastrophic, or as he put it, a
disaster.

In this example I ignored the effect of temperature change on the gas itself
which would have been small and I ignored the expansion of the glass which,
also would have been small.

You can do the calculation for a drop in pressure as well.

See, it really is simple, right? ;o) I know you knew all this from physics
and had just forgotten it. Now you are running your own physics lab in your
home. I have seen physics labs low up before!

Ray

"Ray Calvert" > wrote in message
. com...

A whole lot of basic physical calculations...

> See, it really is simple, right? ;o) I know you knew all this from
> physics and had just forgotten it. Now you are running your own physics
> lab in your home. I have seen physics labs blow up before!

Although winemaking seldom gets _that_ dramatic, there is a lesson to learn
he

If you insist on bunging tight a glass carboy topped full, do it when the
wine is at the _warmest_ temperature it is likely to encounter. That way,
all ensuing temperature shifts will result in variations in the _vacuum_ in
the headspace. Carboys seem to be considerably more tolerant of vacuum than
pressure, and the pressure can never drop below the vapor pressure of the
wine (which I'd estimate at ~30mm Hg.

Tom S

>
> An even simpler thing to consider is to place the carboy inside a
> large plastic bag ("trash bag"), or inside a container of some sort,
> so that if it bursts at least there is a chance of not having a huge
> mess. I'm actually a brewer, not a winemaker (tho' I make a few
> small batches of sake or fruit wine every year). I've never had a
> carboy break, but I'd had several airlocks blow out (fermenting wort
> has a lot of crud in it and can plug the airlock). I've always used
> either a bag, or a container, or both, to contain the mess if the
> worst happens, and so far it's worked.
>
> --arne
>
>> Tom S
>>
Yes but is the disaster defined as losing the wine or making a mess. ;o)

I might comment that I have bunged one gallon carboys with no problem. But
I ALWAYS leave an adequate air space at the top. That will absorb any
pressure change.

Ray

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Ray Calvert" > wrote in message
> . com...
>
> A whole lot of basic physical calculations...
>
> > See, it really is simple, right? ;o) I know you knew all this from
> > physics and had just forgotten it. Now you are running your own physics
> > lab in your home. I have seen physics labs blow up before!

FWIW, there is one at the University of New Orleans that is radioactive
and sealed shut for a half-life or two..... Damned screwy Cajuns!
>
> Although winemaking seldom gets _that_ dramatic, there is a lesson to
learn
> he
>
> If you insist on bunging tight a glass carboy topped full, do it when the
> wine is at the _warmest_ temperature it is likely to encounter. That way,
> all ensuing temperature shifts will result in variations in the _vacuum_
in
> the headspace. Carboys seem to be considerably more tolerant of vacuum
than
> pressure, and the pressure can never drop below the vapor pressure of the
> wine (which I'd estimate at ~30mm Hg.
>
> Tom S
>
>

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Ray Calvert" > wrote in message
> . com...
>
> A whole lot of basic physical calculations...
>
> > See, it really is simple, right? ;o) I know you knew all this from
> > physics and had just forgotten it. Now you are running your own physics
> > lab in your home. I have seen physics labs blow up before!

FWIW, there is one at the University of New Orleans that is radioactive
and sealed shut for a half-life or two..... Damned screwy Cajuns!
>
> Although winemaking seldom gets _that_ dramatic, there is a lesson to
learn
> he
>
> If you insist on bunging tight a glass carboy topped full, do it when the
> wine is at the _warmest_ temperature it is likely to encounter. That way,
> all ensuing temperature shifts will result in variations in the _vacuum_
in
> the headspace. Carboys seem to be considerably more tolerant of vacuum
than
> pressure, and the pressure can never drop below the vapor pressure of the
> wine (which I'd estimate at ~30mm Hg.
>
> Tom S
>
>