I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough loaves:
chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all at once).
Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's worth the extra
time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves instead of
commercial yeast, since the subtle and interesting sourdough flavours
are rather dominated by the added flavours.

What's the opinion of the group on this one?

- guy
--
Remove the obvious to reply.

Guy Snape wrote:

> I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough
> loaves: chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all
> at once). Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's
> worth the extra time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves
> instead of commercial yeast, since the subtle and interesting
> sourdough flavours are rather dominated by the added flavours.
>
> What's the opinion of the group on this one?

In ANY baking group, you'll encounter people who say its sacrilege to
add ANYTHING but flour, water, salt, and leaven to bread. "What more do
you need?" is their mantra.

In the end, there are lots of reasons to use sourdough. Too many people
think sourdough has to be an "in your face, over the edge" taste. It
doesn't. It can have a wide range of tastes, depending on the bread.
When you use sourdough as your leaven, more of the micro-nutrients in
the flour are available to the person who eats the bread. Whole grains
may have more nutrients in them, but they are tied to phytic acid and
not readilly available. Unless you bake with sourdough.

Despite the near religious frenzy that surrounds it, sourdough is just
another leaven. I'd suggest you try making the breads with bakers yeast
and with sourdough and then deciding which breads you prefer. The goal,
after all, should be to make breaads you like.

Mike

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1109786588.78081.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> Guy Snape wrote:
>
> > I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough
> > loaves: chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all
> > at once). Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's
> > worth the extra time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves
> > instead of commercial yeast, since the subtle and interesting
> > sourdough flavours are rather dominated by the added flavours.
> >
> > What's the opinion of the group on this one?
>
> In ANY baking group, you'll encounter people who say its sacrilege to
> add ANYTHING but flour, water, salt, and leaven to bread. "What more do
> you need?" is their mantra.
>
> In the end, there are lots of reasons to use sourdough. Too many people
> think sourdough has to be an "in your face, over the edge" taste. It
> doesn't. It can have a wide range of tastes, depending on the bread.
> When you use sourdough as your leaven, more of the micro-nutrients in
> the flour are available to the person who eats the bread. Whole grains
> may have more nutrients in them, but they are tied to phytic acid and
> not readilly available. Unless you bake with sourdough.
>
> Despite the near religious frenzy that surrounds it, sourdough is just
> another leaven. I'd suggest you try making the breads with bakers yeast
> and with sourdough and then deciding which breads you prefer. The goal,
> after all, should be to make breaads you like.
>
> Mike
>

I agree, it fully depends what you are going for. I don't bake this way for
the sour taste at all, though a little can be interesting.
I am a huge Lord of the Rings fan, and if anyone has seen the movies, or
read the books, you quickly notice that the hobbits are always stuffing
their face with bread. They didn't have Super Stop & Shops in the Shire, so
they probably couldn't get little foil packets or jars of yeast, and hence
had to make their hobbit bread in their little hobbit holes this way I am
sure. Fascinating.
My latest bread uses allot of oatmeal and whole wheat, actually the entire
sponge for better breakdown of the grains which seems to work great, and I
cant taste any sourness, and in this particular bread I am not sure I would
want to. So I could get away with using commercial yeast, but why bother? I
have only been baking bread for a few months, moreso now with sourdough
leavening, and am happy with the results.
Anyways, if you really wanted the sour not to be over ruled by flavorings,
couldn't you just ferment longer and use less flavorings?

Hutchndi

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1109786588.78081.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> Guy Snape wrote:
>
> > I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough
> > loaves: chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all
> > at once). Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's
> > worth the extra time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves
> > instead of commercial yeast, since the subtle and interesting
> > sourdough flavours are rather dominated by the added flavours.
> >
> > What's the opinion of the group on this one?
>
> In ANY baking group, you'll encounter people who say its sacrilege to
> add ANYTHING but flour, water, salt, and leaven to bread. "What more do
> you need?" is their mantra.
>
> In the end, there are lots of reasons to use sourdough. Too many people
> think sourdough has to be an "in your face, over the edge" taste. It
> doesn't. It can have a wide range of tastes, depending on the bread.
> When you use sourdough as your leaven, more of the micro-nutrients in
> the flour are available to the person who eats the bread. Whole grains
> may have more nutrients in them, but they are tied to phytic acid and
> not readilly available. Unless you bake with sourdough.
>
> Despite the near religious frenzy that surrounds it, sourdough is just
> another leaven. I'd suggest you try making the breads with bakers yeast
> and with sourdough and then deciding which breads you prefer. The goal,
> after all, should be to make breaads you like.
>
> Mike
>

I agree, it fully depends what you are going for. I don't bake this way for
the sour taste at all, though a little can be interesting.
I am a huge Lord of the Rings fan, and if anyone has seen the movies, or
read the books, you quickly notice that the hobbits are always stuffing
their face with bread. They didn't have Super Stop & Shops in the Shire, so
they probably couldn't get little foil packets or jars of yeast, and hence
had to make their hobbit bread in their little hobbit holes this way I am
sure. Fascinating.
My latest bread uses allot of oatmeal and whole wheat, actually the entire
sponge for better breakdown of the grains which seems to work great, and I
cant taste any sourness, and in this particular bread I am not sure I would
want to. So I could get away with using commercial yeast, but why bother? I
have only been baking bread for a few months, moreso now with sourdough
leavening, and am happy with the results.
Anyways, if you really wanted the sour not to be over ruled by flavorings,
couldn't you just ferment longer and use less flavorings?

Hutchndi

Guy Snape wrote:

> ...but I don't know if it's worth the extra time and effort of using
> sourdough for these loaves instead of commercial yeast, since the
> subtle and interesting sourdough flavours are rather dominated by the
> added flavours.
>
> What's the opinion of the group on this one?

i find it amazing how often that just verbalizing a
problem/issue/concern can give the answer/solution without resorting to
having other people telling me what to think.

b/

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:03:08 -0700, Mike Avery
> wrote:

>Guy Snape wrote:
>
>> I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough
>> loaves: chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all
>> at once). Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's
>> worth the extra time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves
>> instead of commercial yeast, since the subtle and interesting
>> sourdough flavours are rather dominated by the added flavours.
>>
>> What's the opinion of the group on this one?
>
>In ANY baking group, you'll encounter people who say its sacrilege to
>add ANYTHING but flour, water, salt, and leaven to bread. "What more do
>you need?" is their mantra.
>
>In the end, there are lots of reasons to use sourdough. Too many people
>think sourdough has to be an "in your face, over the edge" taste. It
>doesn't. It can have a wide range of tastes, depending on the bread.
>When you use sourdough as your leaven, more of the micro-nutrients in
>the flour are available to the person who eats the bread. Whole grains
>may have more nutrients in them, but they are tied to phytic acid and
>not readilly available. Unless you bake with sourdough.
>
>Despite the near religious frenzy that surrounds it, sourdough is just
>another leaven. I'd suggest you try making the breads with bakers yeast
>and with sourdough and then deciding which breads you prefer. The goal,
>after all, should be to make breaads you like.
>
>Mike

Hi Guy,

I agree with all of Mike's comments but would add one:

The textures of my SD breads are different from those of
yeasted breads and that might be worth considering.

Do a side-by-side and see what you like...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:03:08 -0700, Mike Avery
> wrote:

>Guy Snape wrote:
>
>> I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough
>> loaves: chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all
>> at once). Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's
>> worth the extra time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves
>> instead of commercial yeast, since the subtle and interesting
>> sourdough flavours are rather dominated by the added flavours.
>>
>> What's the opinion of the group on this one?
>
>In ANY baking group, you'll encounter people who say its sacrilege to
>add ANYTHING but flour, water, salt, and leaven to bread. "What more do
>you need?" is their mantra.
>
>In the end, there are lots of reasons to use sourdough. Too many people
>think sourdough has to be an "in your face, over the edge" taste. It
>doesn't. It can have a wide range of tastes, depending on the bread.
>When you use sourdough as your leaven, more of the micro-nutrients in
>the flour are available to the person who eats the bread. Whole grains
>may have more nutrients in them, but they are tied to phytic acid and
>not readilly available. Unless you bake with sourdough.
>
>Despite the near religious frenzy that surrounds it, sourdough is just
>another leaven. I'd suggest you try making the breads with bakers yeast
>and with sourdough and then deciding which breads you prefer. The goal,
>after all, should be to make breaads you like.
>
>Mike

Hi Guy,

I agree with all of Mike's comments but would add one:

The textures of my SD breads are different from those of
yeasted breads and that might be worth considering.

Do a side-by-side and see what you like...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message =
...

> The textures of my SD breads are different from those of
> yeasted breads and that might be worth considering.

> Do a side-by-side and see what you like...

Howdy,

Kenneth, as a senior member of r.f.s., do you suppose that
you might publish a side-by-side comparison of your yeasted-
and sourdough breads, using photos of the crumb textures=20
as illustrations?

--
DickA

"Kenneth" > wrote in message =
...

> The textures of my SD breads are different from those of
> yeasted breads and that might be worth considering.

> Do a side-by-side and see what you like...

Howdy,

Kenneth, as a senior member of r.f.s., do you suppose that
you might publish a side-by-side comparison of your yeasted-
and sourdough breads, using photos of the crumb textures=20
as illustrations?

--
DickA

"Guy Snape" > wrote in message
...
> I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough loaves:
> chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all at once).
> Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's worth the extra
> time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves instead of commercial
> yeast, since the subtle and interesting sourdough flavours are rather
> dominated by the added flavours.
>
> What's the opinion of the group on this one?
>
> - guy
> --

I see no reason not to add other ingredients to sourdough breads. Whatever
bread makes you happy is good bread. Sometimes sourdough flavors can be
dominated by other ingredients, but that's not necessarily a bad thing --
unless you want your flavored breads to be sour as well.

Nevertheless, sourdough risen breads will likely have a more complex flavor,
even if you can't taste the "sour" apart from the added ingredients, whereas
a yeasted flavored bread will more likely have a more pure ingredient
flavor. The crumb will also have a different texture than yeasted breads.
It's likely to be a bit more irregular and chewy, instead of even, soft, and
fluffy like a yeasted bread. The type of crumb you desire can help you
decide whether to use sourdough or yeast for your flavored breads.

I've tasted several flavored breads in both yeast and sourdough versions and
I usually prefer the sourdough version for it's deeper flavor and more
interesting texture.


Trevor

"Guy Snape" > wrote in message
...
> I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough loaves:
> chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all at once).
> Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's worth the extra
> time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves instead of commercial
> yeast, since the subtle and interesting sourdough flavours are rather
> dominated by the added flavours.
>
> What's the opinion of the group on this one?
>
> - guy
> --

I see no reason not to add other ingredients to sourdough breads. Whatever
bread makes you happy is good bread. Sometimes sourdough flavors can be
dominated by other ingredients, but that's not necessarily a bad thing --
unless you want your flavored breads to be sour as well.

Nevertheless, sourdough risen breads will likely have a more complex flavor,
even if you can't taste the "sour" apart from the added ingredients, whereas
a yeasted flavored bread will more likely have a more pure ingredient
flavor. The crumb will also have a different texture than yeasted breads.
It's likely to be a bit more irregular and chewy, instead of even, soft, and
fluffy like a yeasted bread. The type of crumb you desire can help you
decide whether to use sourdough or yeast for your flavored breads.

I've tasted several flavored breads in both yeast and sourdough versions and
I usually prefer the sourdough version for it's deeper flavor and more
interesting texture.


Trevor

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
> Kenneth, as a senior member of r.f.s., do you suppose that
> you might publish a side-by-side comparison of your yeasted-
> and sourdough breads, using photos of the crumb textures
> as illustrations?

I'll say this for you, Dick... you are persistent. Unfortunately, Kenneth's
killfile trumps persistence.

- Steve Brandt

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
> Kenneth, as a senior member of r.f.s., do you suppose that
> you might publish a side-by-side comparison of your yeasted-
> and sourdough breads, using photos of the crumb textures
> as illustrations?

I'll say this for you, Dick... you are persistent. Unfortunately, Kenneth's
killfile trumps persistence.

- Steve Brandt

"Steve B" > wrote in message=20
...

> I'll say this for you, Dick... you are persistent. Unfortunately, =
Kenneth's=20
> killfile trumps persistence.

Yep, well now he's gotta killfile you.

With regard to adding flavouring to sourdough, I rather like the =
solution
proposed by Lord Sandwich.

Guy Snape wrote:
>
> ... but I don't know if it's worth the extra
> time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves instead of
> commercial yeast, since the subtle and interesting sourdough flavours
> are rather dominated by the added flavours.
>
Sourdough may take a little more time because the process is
slower, but not more effort. Effort may actually be less if you
knead by hand, because the sourdough requires less kneading.

The taste of sourdough can be subtle - so is the color of the
artists canvas. The fact that you add bright or strong flavor to
bread does not eliminate the need for a quality loaf to start
anymore than bright or strong colors in a painting eliminate the
need for a quality canvas, if you are to finish with a quality
product.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
wrote:
> Sourdough may take a little more time because the process is
> slower, but not more effort. Effort may actually be less if you
> knead by hand, because the sourdough requires less kneading.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

This is something I am just really grasping myself, after combining my
sponge with flour and salt for the dough, mix it up good with a wooden spoon
a bit, only a few minutes are then spent on anything resembling kneading. A
few stretch and folds really take care of that, and they take seconds each.
I was really going to town with kneading for a while, and now I find it was
allot of wasted energy. I don't have any mixers at all, and kneed by hand,
so this is a nice benefit.

Hutchndi

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:31:59 +0000, Guy Snape wrote:

> I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough loaves:
> chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all at once).
> Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's worth the extra
> time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves instead of
> commercial yeast, since the subtle and interesting sourdough flavours
> are rather dominated by the added flavours.
>
> What's the opinion of the group on this one?
>
> - guy

I once added some walnuts to my bread. I wasn't really happy with the
result. I have had whole wheat sourdough with olives and, separately,
with walnuts that was pretty good, but it was from some small local
bakery. That is, I didn't make it myself.

Since you are explicitly soliciting opinions, I will add that I personally
would never put any of the other things you mention above in any kind of
bread, but I don't see why that should stop you from doing so.

--Mac

Mac > wrote in news
> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:31:59 +0000, Guy Snape wrote:
>
>> I've started adding some flavouring ingredients to my sourdough
>> loaves: chili, parmesan or blue cheese, walnuts, garlic ... (not all
>> at once). Results have been good so far, but I don't know if it's
>> worth the extra time and effort of using sourdough for these loaves
>> instead of commercial yeast, since the subtle and interesting
>> sourdough flavours are rather dominated by the added flavours.
>>
>> What's the opinion of the group on this one?
>>
>> - guy

I like the idea, and I use it. While sourdough bread that is chewy and
tangy is one of the points of sourdough baking, it is just _one_ of them,
not the universe.

Yesterday, I baked 4 loaves of sourdough from Carl's 1847 Oregon Trail
starter (http://carlsfriends.org) using Samartha's sponge method
(http://samartha.net).

Instead of using water in the dough, I used fresh juice I extracted from
raw vegetables using my champion juicer. It is okay to make too much
because you can drink any excess while you're baking.

1 big carrot
2 stalks of celery
1 bunch of scallions
1 head (a head, not a clove) of garlic
1 bunch of cilantro
2 Habanera peppers
1 red bell pepper
2 ripe red tomatoes

To this, I added

half a teaspoon of cumin and a
teaspoon of coriander.

Then I mixed the above juice with salt and half a teaspoon of ascorbic
acid into the flour, let it sit half an hour, added in the sponge,
kneaded the dough 10 minutes, let it sit 30 minutes, kneaded another 5
minutes, let it sit 30 minutes, then shaped it into loaves an put them in
oiled pans to rise.

After an hour's rise, I snipped scores in the tops with my kitchen shears
(tends not to mess up the risen loaves), and let them rise another 3
hours, at which point they had peaked out. I then painted them with a
wash of egg, milk, and ground chipotle (smoked jalapeno peppers), and
baked them at 425F for an 50 minutes. I removed them from the pans, set
the loaves on racks, and put the racked loaves back in the oven for 10
minutes so as to crisp the bottoms and sides.

The result was absolutely delicious, slightly tangy, nicely chewy, large-
crumbed, crispy-crusted, light-orange in color, slightly hot, and
flavorful in a complex but definitely southwestern way. Bobby Flay would
have been jealous.

And, talk about toast! The slices toast up to be crunchy all around, and
still chewy. This morning I made what I call "gas-house eggs" with a
couple of slices. The process is: I cut a hole in each slice with a shot
glass, butter both sides of the bread and hole pieces lightly, toast them
on one side on a hot griddle, flip them, put a dab of butter in the
holes, crack a jumbo AA fresh egg into each hole, grind a little sea salt
and black pepper on the tops, flip them, and after a minute of sizzling,
spatula them off onto my plate. What can I say? Crunchy, sumptuous,
spicy, and eggy, just the way I like them.

My "acid" test is whether my wife Maria likes the breads I bake. She
went nuts over this batch of loaves, and has started telling everyone in
the family about the beautifully colorful, spicy, tangy, chewy, crunchy,
robustly flavorful result of my experimenting.

So if and when the hard-core sourdoughists on this list pooh-pooh your
idea of adding flavor to sourdough loaves, just ignore their carping,
experiment, and enjoy your delicious flavored bread. They don't know
what they're missing.

On 3/12/05 11:42 AM, "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote:

<snip>

> Instead of using water in the dough, I used fresh juice I extracted from
> raw vegetables using my champion juicer. It is okay to make too much
> because you can drink any excess while you're baking.
>
> 1 big carrot
> 2 stalks of celery
> 1 bunch of scallions
> 1 head (a head, not a clove) of garlic
> 1 bunch of cilantro
> 2 Habanera peppers
> 1 red bell pepper
> 2 ripe red tomatoes

What did you do with the pulp?

Will

" Instead of using water in the dough, I used fresh juice I extracted
from..."

Excellent! I have just started using veggie juice myself, only in a
different way. When my wife boils veggies for dinner she used to dump the
used water down the drain, now she checks with me to see if I want to use it
in my bread. Maybe not as healthy as fresh carrot squeezings, but better
than pouring all those vitamins down the pipes!

Hutchndi

"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:RwgZd.31069$Az.2103@lakeread02...
>" Instead of using water in the dough, I used fresh juice I extracted
> from..."
>
> Excellent! I have just started using veggie juice myself, only in a
> different way. When my wife boils veggies for dinner she used to dump the
> used water down the drain, now she checks with me to see if I want to use
> it
> in my bread. Maybe not as healthy as fresh carrot squeezings, but better
> than pouring all those vitamins down the pipes!
>
> Hutchndi
>
>
I recall my grandma in her kitchen would use the potato water, from her
boiled potatos, and it would go into her sourdough in the cool pantry. I
think she might have used the boil water from other veggies too. green
beans, carrots and such.
Back then not much was wasted and tossed out.
i still save the water from boiled potatoes if i know i am baking bread the
next day.
Try it darling, you will like it.