I've lurked here for over a year now and have enjoyed most of my time spent.
Anyway, I just received this month's Cook's Illustrated and was surprised to
see sourdough bread among the recipes. Needless to say I'm looking forward
to seeing how this group's responds to the magazine's effort -- unless I'm
wrong to assume there are other CI readers here. Forgive my intrusion if
this is the case.

Keep on proofing,

PL

Plumb Loco wrote:

> I've lurked here for over a year now and have enjoyed most of my time spent.
> Anyway, I just received this month's Cook's Illustrated and was surprised to
> see sourdough bread among the recipes.

What in the article do you wish to discuss?

B/

do you have the number and/or month of the magazine issue? I would
definately like to go see what they have in the article.
thanks,
gw

It's the Spring 2003 issue (March & April for suscribers). I just received
mine the other day, and it should be available at Barnes & Noble or other
booksellers or newsstands now.



"gw" > wrote in message
...
> do you have the number and/or month of the magazine issue? I would
> definately like to go see what they have in the article.
> thanks,
> gw
>
>
>

> What in the article do you wish to discuss?
>
> B/

Their aim was a loaf of good quality sourdough bread in about a day. Their
recipe does not use commercial yeast, but a mail order sourdough starter.
They recommend Baker's Catalogue or Goldrush Products Co.

The couple of photos show a nice looking bread on the outside, but not very
many large holes on the inside. They claim their finished bread has
"perfect sour flavor, rustic crumb, and thick, crunchy crust."

If you've read it or if you've tried making their recipe I'd like to read
some opinions. Once my starter is refreshed I'll be trying the methods they
suggest, but that won't be for another week at least.

"Plumb Loco" > wrote in message=20
. com...

> They claim their finished bread has "perfect sour flavor, rustic=20
> crumb, and thick, crunchy crust."

That's the kind that all the r.f.s. newbies are making.

If you don't believe it, just ask their wives and kids.

in article , Plumb Loco at
wrote on 2/2/05 6:27 AM:

> It's the Spring 2003 issue (March & April for suscribers). I just received
> mine the other day, and it should be available at Barnes & Noble or other
> booksellers or newsstands now.
>
>
>
> "gw" > wrote in message
> ...
>> do you have the number and/or month of the magazine issue? I would
>> definately like to go see what they have in the article.
>> thanks,
>> gw
>>
>>
>>
>
>
you do mean 2005 don't you? Or is there a time warp involved?
Ellen
--

"ellen wickberg" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Plumb Loco at
> wrote on 2/2/05 6:27 AM:
>
>> It's the Spring 2003 issue (March & April for suscribers). I just
>> received
>> mine the other day, and it should be available at Barnes & Noble or other
>> booksellers or newsstands now.
>>
>>
>>
>> "gw" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> do you have the number and/or month of the magazine issue? I would
>>> definately like to go see what they have in the article.
>>> thanks,
>>> gw
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> you do mean 2005 don't you? Or is there a time warp involved?
> Ellen
> --
>
>

yes, I used either the wrong finger or the wrong key, but at any rate 2005
was definitely the intended date. my apologies.

> It's the Spring 2003 issue (March & April for suscribers). I just
> received mine the other day, and it should be available at Barnes & Noble
> or other booksellers or newsstands now.

yikes, I meant 2005, not 2003.

Plumb Loco wrote:

> Their aim was a loaf of good quality sourdough bread in about a day. Their
> recipe does not use commercial yeast, but a mail order sourdough starter.
> They recommend Baker's Catalogue or Goldrush Products Co.

I've heard good things about Baker's Catalogue. I've also used the
Goldrush starter. I hate to speak ill of anything, but I'd also rather
not have people get disappointed.

The Goldrush starter is, at best, mediocre. It's available in health
food stores all around the country, and it's been in storage way too
long. When I tried it, it smelled like vomit. A call to Goldrush
confirmed that was to be expected. Oddly enough, my family did not want
to eat the bread. It changed every time I used it, and I have heard
from others who have used it that my experiences are not unique. There
are better starters.

Carl's for instance. Many from Sourdough International. And you can
also start your own starter, although I don't recommend newbies try this.

> The couple of photos show a nice looking bread on the outside, but not very
> many large holes on the inside. They claim their finished bread has
> "perfect sour flavor, rustic crumb, and thick, crunchy crust."

Large holes in bread are desired by many people, but they aren't the
only characteristic that defines good bread.


> If you've read it or if you've tried making their recipe I'd like to read
> some opinions. Once my starter is refreshed I'll be trying the methods they
> suggest, but that won't be for another week at least.

I'll get the magazine today. I find Cooks Illustrated to be spotty -
some of their stuff is great (I REALLY like their butter cookie recipe),
some is just too complicated for no good reason. I thought their last
bread article was pretty weak.

Mike


--
Mike Avery
ICQ: 16241692
AOL IM: MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280

* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way *

"Mike Avery" wrote
> The Goldrush starter is, at best, mediocre. It's available in health food
> stores all around the country, and it's been in storage way too long.
> When I tried it, it smelled like vomit. A call to Goldrush confirmed that
> was to be expected.
> Mike

Mike,
I Have had Goldrush Starter for a number of years, along with Carl's and
a 100 year old Texas starter my friend gave me. None of mine smells like
vomit. I don't know what part of the country you live in, perhaps it is
picking up something strange there. I live in the San Francisco area and if
I want to make real San Francisco Sourdough I must use the correct starter.
There are several companies on the internet besides Goldrush that sell it.
Since all sourdough starters are as old as the hills, I am interested in
knowing when one has been in storage too long.
Ernie

Plumb Loco wrote:

>> What in the article do you wish to discuss?
>>
>> B/
>
> Their aim was a loaf of good quality sourdough bread in about a day. Their
> recipe does not use commercial yeast, but a mail order sourdough starter.
> They recommend Baker's Catalogue or Goldrush Products Co.

Ewww.

Before I learned critical thinking and hadn't figured out any starter I
made here in SF would be by defintion "SF starter" I bought a package of
Goldrush (usually on sale at the airport or anywhere tourists
congregate, which should tell you something).

The kindest thing I could say is "it made bread."

B/

On 2-Feb-2005, Mike Avery > wrote:

> Plumb Loco wrote:
>
> > Their aim was a loaf of good quality sourdough bread in about a day.
> > Their
> > recipe does not use commercial yeast, but a mail order sourdough
> > starter.
> > They recommend Baker's Catalogue or Goldrush Products Co.
>
> I've heard good things about Baker's Catalogue.

Just an FYI for those who might not know; Baker's Catalogue is the online
and mailorder sales organization of the King Arthur Flour people.

I received a batch of their starter in December and have used it several
times with good result. I used to spend 25-50% of my workdays in the SF Bay
area - the result I get with the Baker's Catalogue starter is no where near
as good as the best SF sourdough, but much better than a lot of sourdough I
had in SF.

YMMV, because the water and flour you use can make a difference, as well as
the local, airborne fungi. Regardless, if you think the King Arthur people
deliver quality products, you might find their starter worth a try.

in article , Brian Mailman at
lid wrote on 2/2/05 11:39 AM:

> Plumb Loco wrote:
>
>>> What in the article do you wish to discuss?
>>>
>>> B/
>>
>> Their aim was a loaf of good quality sourdough bread in about a day. Their
>> recipe does not use commercial yeast, but a mail order sourdough starter.
>> They recommend Baker's Catalogue or Goldrush Products Co.
>
> Ewww.
>
> Before I learned critical thinking and hadn't figured out any starter I
> made here in SF would be by defintion "SF starter" I bought a package of
> Goldrush (usually on sale at the airport or anywhere tourists
> congregate, which should tell you something).
>
> The kindest thing I could say is "it made bread."
>
> B/
>
Gee, my Goldrush didn't even do that.
Ellen
--

"ellen wickberg" wrote
> Gee, my Goldrush didn't even do that.
> Ellen

Ellen,
I didn't care for the recipe that came with my Goldrush Starter, but the
starter worked fine. I was surprised to see that the starter comes from a
Midwest brewing company. I guess if any one knows how to take care of a
starter it would be a brewer, because they keep many different yeasts. I
would be surprised if any of those packages of San Francisco Sourdough that
were sold to a tourist ever turned out a real loaf of sourdough, not because
it isn't the real thing, but because it is difficult to accomplish. If you
are interested I will send you some of my Goldrush Sourdough Starter along
with the real instructions on how to make sourdough bread.
Ernie

could you check the back of the magazine and see if they have this article
online anywhere? Last year for some reason I got a freebie subscription, and
they were always telling me to go online and look for the articles they had
this month...If there is an address, perhaps you could post it here?
many thanks,
gw

could you check the back of the magazine and see if they have this article
online anywhere? Last year for some reason I got a freebie subscription, and
they were always telling me to go online and look for the articles they had
this month...If there is an address, perhaps you could post it here?
many thanks,
gw

On 3-Feb-2005, "gw" > wrote:

> could you check the back of the magazine and see if they have this article
> online anywhere? Last year for some reason I got a freebie subscription,
> and
> they were always telling me to go online and look for the articles they
> had
> this month...If there is an address, perhaps you could post it here?
> many thanks,
> gw

http://www.cooksillustrated.com/


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I'm in the last stage of making the Cook's recipe right now - the
boules are right about ready to go into the oven. I'll post results a
little later.

In article >,
"Ernie" > wrote:

> Mike,
> I Have had Goldrush Starter for a number of years, along with Carl's and
> a 100 year old Texas starter my friend gave me. None of mine smells like
> vomit. I don't know what part of the country you live in, perhaps it is
> picking up something strange there. I live in the San Francisco area and if
> I want to make real San Francisco Sourdough I must use the correct starter.
> There are several companies on the internet besides Goldrush that sell it.
> Since all sourdough starters are as old as the hills, I am interested in
> knowing when one has been in storage too long.
> Ernie

Not Mike, but I live south of SF and when I bought a package of that
stuff and started it, I thought it smelled exactly like baby spit up. I
ended up tossing it and getting a starter elsewhere. I just couldn't
imagine baking with something that smelled so bad.

marcella

I have been having trouble posting, I have been cleared, I just use the above email address or can I use the reply button on anyones message Paddy
Original Message -----
From: D. Cook
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
To:
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 11:27 AM
Subject: Cook's Illustrated


I'm in the last stage of making the Cook's recipe right now - the
boules are right about ready to go into the oven. I'll post results a
little later.
_______________________________________________
rec.food.sourdough mailing list

http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

Here are some pics of the loaves I made with the Cook's Illustrated
recipe. They are 1.5 pound loaves. The crust is nice and chewy, but I
think that my oven might have been a little hot because there is an
awful lot of "cooked crust" flavor which overpowers the all-white
bread.

I made it with a new starter, and am a bit disappointed with the
flavor. I think I would try this recipe again with a little whole
wheat to add a more robust flavor, and I would decrease the oven temp
from 450 to 400. The recipe called for a two day process with a short
sponge stage (say that 5 times fast) until it doubles, then a rise,
then formed into loaves and in the fridge overnight, then a final rise
and bake. There was quite a bit of oven spring.

Boules:
http://gallery.addlepated.net/Food/DSCN3610

Crumb 1:
http://gallery.addlepated.net/Food/DSCN3611

Crumb 2:
http://gallery.addlepated.net/Food/DSCN3612

>The Goldrush starter is, at best, mediocre.

Well this lurker just had to write in, cause well, you spoke ill of it
and
my friends and family have been telling me to bake more. (Slave drivers

every last one of them<g>) I received the Gold Rush starter from a
friend.
I had in the meantime ordered two other starters from SDI.
My friend bought it at our local gourmet shop, activated it and then
gave
it to me as she didn't know what to do with it! Of course she knew that
I
had a long culinary career, I had done some sourdough baking in the
past (I
had used a wild starter out of southern Oregon) and I lived in Berkeley

California for 10yrs, (ex hubby 46yrs in Berkeley and knows his
sourdough)
So this is how I came to work with the GoldRush starter , but I really
didn't seem to be getting anywhere with it as I wanted to use a bread
machine to make and bake my bread. (Arthritic hands)

So I signed up with this group after about 2weeks searching on the
Internet
for sourdough in the breadmachine. Well lo and behold you folks
trashed the
very sourdough I was trying to learn to use. I ALMOST threw it OUT! I
can't
tell you how happy I am that I didn't. I came across the title
"Worldwide
Sourdoughs From Your Breadmachine" by....you got it Mr Ed Wood. I had
started following his instructions. And I do mean FOLLOW directions. I
gotta
tell you folks, I have been making wonderful Sourdough in the bread
machine.
I have even gotten to the point I can play around with varying
ingredients
and just having a swell time. So now I guess I've got to find someone
with a
digital camera to show you folks what I've been up to, but how do I
send a
slice of bread for sour evaluation?? <g>

First of all it is very dependable once you get it going. It's very
forgiving,gets better with use,Lots Betta!!, is the fastest starter out
of
the blocks and has a mild to medium sour taste that gives a
sensational
twitch and watering in your jaw. (As a matter of fact, the smell of
the
hooch is outstanding!) I started off baking about 3x a week, and have
been
for the last month and a half. That's alot of feeding, proofing,
running
schedules into the wee hours of the night. Yes, I made one
cannonball-(BTW
it got eaten by ex-hubby who thought it was pretty good for my first
time
from a machine.) Then made one where I forgot the salt. I was about to
feed
it to the ducks, when an artisan cheesemaker friend of mine, had us try
it
with her knewly made feta. The gentle sourness, the crumb, the crust
was
perfect-just flat tasting from lack of salt. Well folks, the loaf was a
hit
with the melted feta. The 3 of us polished off all the bread and
cheese!

I feed it with bottled water and freshly ground Prairie Gold white
whole
wheat flour and I use any flour I care to in the recipe, including
(OO)semolina, dark rye, light rye, King Arthur and a whole slew of
add-ins.
Some days I proof it, some days I just have time to literally throw the

water and flour in, give it a quick stir and then plonk it in the
fridge. It
bubbles, froths up then retreats.(within 2hrs) I do measure the water
and
flour. I follow Ed's instructions, starter +plus half the flour from
the recipe in the pan, then set the timer +8hrs to start . This works
whether I'm using
the full french, basic, wholewheat or even just dough cycle. This
starter
will sour and raise anything I throw at it, (yeah I've forgotten it a
couple
of times, and the sour flavor was deeper and fantastic-that was a 1/2
rye/whole wheat loaf!) This week I'm going for Parker House Rolls and
brioche. Shall I mail you folks a roll or two for evaluation? Anyone of
you
here in the Pacific NorthWest wanting to do a taste test?

So folks, what's up with this starter? This one has been going
gangbusters
so much so I haven't cracked the seal on the SF or New Zealand that I
got
from SDI. I just don't have the room to have 3 different starters going
and
who knows if the GoldRush will get lost or die off or what?.

With a sour twang,
Deme

Lady Boudin wrote:
>>The Goldrush starter is, at best, mediocre.
>
>
> Well this lurker just had to write in, cause well, you spoke ill of it
> and
> my friends and family have been telling me to bake more. (Slave drivers
>
> every last one of them<g>)
[...]

You know, I was kind of wondering about the Goldrush starter's reputation.

I mean, if sourdough comes out of Fleischmann's baker's yeast and thus
bearing the label "Fleischmann Sourdough", it may be a very similar
situation with the Goldrush. The Fleischmann yeast does not survive and
what remains are natural sourdough organisms coming from the flour.

If I would give you a small bag of plain flour labeled "Sarmartha's SF
Starter" and tell you to dilute it with water, add some more flour, then
keep it warm with regular feedings, you may experience initially some
strong smells, possibly like childs vomit - or even worse and
eventually end up with a sourdough starter making decent bread
initially. Then, with regular continuous feedings with a stable
temperature for a couple of weeks you may even end up with the famous
Lactobacilly Sanfrancisco in your starter playing the major role in
making your good bread.

The bottom line is that the good properties coming out of the procedures
with "Fleischmann" and "Goldrush" yeast or starter packages have
actually nothing to do with the names given but with the process
involved and anyone may argue which starter is doing what better or
worse or what is coming out of it as long as one likes.

Samartha

"Samartha Deva" wrote in message
> If I would give you a small bag of plain flour labeled "Sarmartha's SF
> Starter" and tell you to dilute it with water, add some more flour, then
> keep it warm with regular feedings, you may experience initially some
> strong smells, possibly like childs vomit - or even worse and eventually
> end up with a sourdough starter making decent bread initially. Then, with
> regular continuous feedings with a stable temperature for a couple of
> weeks you may even end up with the famous Lactobacilly Sanfrancisco in
> your starter playing the major role in making your good bread.
>
> The bottom line is that the good properties coming out of the procedures
> with "Fleischmann" and "Goldrush" yeast or starter packages have actually
> nothing to do with the names given but with the process involved and
> anyone may argue which starter is doing what better or worse or what is
> coming out of it as long as one likes.
> Samartha

Quite right Samartha.

Ernie wrote:
> "Mike Avery" wrote
>
>>The Goldrush starter is, at best, mediocre. It's available in health food
>>stores all around the country, and it's been in storage way too long.
>>When I tried it, it smelled like vomit. A call to Goldrush confirmed that
>>was to be expected.

> I Have had Goldrush Starter for a number of years, along with Carl's and
> a 100 year old Texas starter my friend gave me. None of mine smells like
> vomit. I don't know what part of the country you live in, perhaps it is
> picking up something strange there. I live in the San Francisco area and if
> I want to make real San Francisco Sourdough I must use the correct starter.
> There are several companies on the internet besides Goldrush that sell it.
> Since all sourdough starters are as old as the hills, I am interested in
> knowing when one has been in storage too long.

The Goldrush was fed using a commercial white flour, and I was pretty
careful to not contaminate it. It started out smelling bad, and never
got very good.

Since I do have success with sourdough using other cultures, I don't
think it's me, something in the air locally, or even flour issues. In
general, the "something in the air" theory is pretty weak as the density
of microorganisms in both flour and the culture are high enough that
"something in the air" doesn't stand much of a chance. If you read Dr.
Wood's interesting article about trying to capture a culture in Egypt,
you'll discover that if you sterilize the flour and water, your chances
of getting a viable culture aren't terribly high. Which suggests that
most people who start cultures get the culture from the flour.

As to "too old", starters aren't really sporulated when they are dried
out, so they are dying. Yeah, the culture is in a cute foil pouch, but
if it's been sitting on the shelf too long, chances are it's not going
to do well. A number of researchers suggest that most cultures have a
nubmer of strains of yeasts and lactobacilli in them. Getting a pure
culture is not easy, even for a microbiologist. So, as conditions
change, what was a minority strain can become dominant, changing the
nature of the starter. I suspect drying the starter, storing it for 6
months to a year and then trying to reculture it would be a culture
changing event. I'll talk to a microbiologist friend about it in the
next few days.

Mike

"Mike Avery" wrote > The Goldrush was fed using a commercial white flour,
and I was pretty
> careful to not contaminate it. It started out smelling bad, and never got
> very good.
<snip>
> As to "too old", starters aren't really sporulated when they are dried
> out, so they are dying. Yeah, the culture is in a cute foil pouch, but if
> it's been sitting on the shelf too long, chances are it's not going to do
> well. A number of researchers suggest that most cultures have a nubmer of
> strains of yeasts and lactobacilli in them. Getting a pure culture is not
> easy, even for a microbiologist. So, as conditions change, what was a
> minority strain can become dominant, changing the nature of the starter.
> I suspect drying the starter, storing it for 6 months to a year and then
> trying to reculture it would be a culture changing event. I'll talk to a
> microbiologist friend about it in the next few days.
> Mike

Nature has provided a way for things to survive during dry periods. I don't
think the culture changes once it is dried. It would stand a better chance
of changing when it was wet. It has been so long since I activated my
Goldrush that I may have missed the initial bad smell that occurs during
activation. If the company that markets Goldrush told you the smell is
normal I believe them. I can't tell any difference in the smell of my three
activated starters. If any of them smelled like vomit I know my wife would
not tolerate it in her fridge. Things like seeds can survive without
moisture for years and still reproduce, so I can't see why a starter can't.
Ernie

very pretty! do they taste good, too?
which starter did you use again?
gw

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 19:23:52 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>Things like seeds can survive without
>moisture for years and still reproduce, so I can't see why a starter can't.

Huh...?

Perhaps that would be because "starter" and "seeds" are not
the same thing.

All the best,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

In article >, gw
> wrote:

> very pretty! do they taste good, too?
> which starter did you use again?

Thanks! I used what was supposed to be the Russian starter from
Sourdoughs International, but I think it ended up being a totally new
culture that developed while I was trying to revive the powdered S.I.
stuff. The bread is a little bland, and not as sour as I'm used to.
It tastes very nice with butter. The texture is just about perfect,
with a nice crumb and a chewy crust.

In short, I think that the starter needed work, not the recipe.

"Lady Boudin" wrote

<snip>
> I do measure the water and flour. I follow Ed's instructions,
> starter +plus half the flour from the recipe in the pan, then
> set the timer +8hrs to start . This works whether I'm using
> the full french, basic, wholewheat or even just dough cycle. This
> starter will sour and raise anything I throw at it,
> Deme

Hi Deme,
How long and at what temperature do you let the dough rise to make it
sour. Mine won't get sour unless I let it set for two 8 hour stretches at
90 degrees F. One before I shape the loaf and once after.
Ernie

> "Ernie" wrote
>>Things like seeds can survive without
>>moisture for years and still reproduce, so I can't see why a starter
>>can't.

> "Kenneth" wrote
> Huh...?
> Perhaps that would be because "starter" and "seeds" are not
> the same thing.
> Kenneth

Well the idea of nature protecting things through dry spells is the same
thing. I have had some of my Goldrush dried in an envelope in my desk for
over three years and it reactivates just like the origional did.
Ernie

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 21:07:57 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>> "Ernie" wrote
>>>Things like seeds can survive without
>>>moisture for years and still reproduce, so I can't see why a starter
>>>can't.
>
>> "Kenneth" wrote
>> Huh...?
>> Perhaps that would be because "starter" and "seeds" are not
>> the same thing.
>> Kenneth
>
>Well the idea of nature protecting things through dry spells is the same
>thing. I have had some of my Goldrush dried in an envelope in my desk for
>over three years and it reactivates just like the origional did.
>Ernie
>

Hi Ernie,

Sadly, nature does not protect all living things through dry
spells at all...

Some yes, some no.

Certain seeds, yes.

Animals, no.

Sourdough cultures... I don't know.

But, with respect, the logic that you have offered would
tell us little about the drying issue for sourdough
cultures.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

> Hi Ernie,
> Sadly, nature does not protect all living things through dry
> spells at all...
> Animals, no.
> Kenneth
You are overlooking camels, frogs and certain types of fish with lungs.
Ernie

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 22:06:28 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>> Hi Ernie,
>> Sadly, nature does not protect all living things through dry
>> spells at all...
>> Animals, no.
>> Kenneth
>You are overlooking camels, frogs and certain types of fish with lungs.
>Ernie
>

Hi again Ernie,

I said "nature does not protect all living things."
^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Ernie wrote:

> Hi Deme,
> How long and at what temperature do you let the dough rise to make it
> sour. Mine won't get sour unless I let it set for two 8 hour stretches at
> 90 degrees F. One before I shape the loaf and once after.
> Ernie

Ernie, how do you grow your starter? Maybe running it a bit dryer could
make a difference in the final product?

Samartha

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1107567277.13297.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Ernie wrote:
>
>> Hi Deme,
>> How long and at what temperature do you let the dough rise to make it
>> sour. Mine won't get sour unless I let it set for two 8 hour stretches
>> at 90 degrees F. One before I shape the loaf and once after.
>> Ernie
>
> Ernie, how do you grow your starter? Maybe running it a bit dryer could
> make a difference in the final product?
>
> Samartha
>

I keep my starter at half flour and half water by weight, (100% hydration
using bakers percentage).
Ernie

Ernie wrote:

>
>
> I keep my starter at half flour and half water by weight, (100% hydration
> using bakers percentage).
> Ernie
>
Ok, that makes total sense. Now, if you do a multi stage starter
procedure, maybe run one stage with a lower hydration, and for 24 hours,
of cause with a lower inoculum, maybe 10 % and see if that gives you a
different result in sourness.

See, I don't have lack of sourness problems and on the newsgroup, it
comes up once and a while and if it could be nailed down to adjusting 3
variables - case closed.

Not that I want to talk you into something you don't want to do but you
seem to have the recurring issue and are keeping track of it.

The reasons from my end to suggest this is my playing with a) DM3, b)
the 24 hour sour seigle bread procedure and looking at a table where
they measured the increase of yeast- and bacteria counts dependent on
hydration and temperature.

There it showed that there is a larger increase in the number of
bacteria than the number of yeasts with lower hydrations across a fairly
large (26 - 32 C, 80 - 90 F) temperature range. I type in one line of
that table at 30 C (86F):

1 acid content bacteria mio/g yeasts mio/g
2 T 70 100 200 70 100 200 70 100 200
3 30 11.4 9.3 7.2 1038 846 562 44 54 65

line 1 - what's below
line 2 - hydrations
line 3 - values
mio/g is million critters per gram

from that you can see that there is a 22 % increase of bacteria (LB's)
and a 19 % decrease in yeasts in using a 100 % hydration as compared to
a 70 % hydration. Changing this ratio sure has some impact on acidity
on the final product.

Well, that's all base on the assumption you want a more sour bread in a
shorter time.

Maybe I try it, I'll be growing a starter from tomorrow; just split it
in half and run one part with 70, the other with 100 and see what they
do. 70 is a bitch to mix manually.

Anyway....

Samartha

> How long and at what temperature do you let the dough rise to make
it
> sour. Mine won't get sour unless I let it set for two 8 hour
stretches at
> 90 degrees F. One before I shape the loaf and once after.
> Ernie

Hi, Ernie, you are about right on. What I do is take my starter, add
it to 1/2 of the flour that is in my recipe, stick it under a 60 watt
bulb in my closet and FORGET IT! Yes, 60watts! Right above the bread
pan it holds at 95degrees. I found that in Ed Wood's book he calls for
that foam proofer and a 25watt bulb. Well that just didn't produce the
temp needed. I leave it for about 8-12hrs, lots of times, it's
whenever I get to it. And like I've stated earlier, I have forgotten it
and gotten some of the best sourness you could imagine. I admit my
mixture looks pretty desparate looking. The top actually gets crusty
and light brown, it looks like it needs rescuing, I add the rest of the
ingredients and throw it in the bread machine, on my Oster Deluxe bm
the large whole wheat has a total time of 4hrs and 30 miniutes. Add the
12hrs and you got 16hrs 30min total. I use a 4-8hr mark when I want to
make something like an orange loaf, something that just needs to be
leavened but not necessarily sour. Rises beautifully. If I've forgotten
it toooo long, that calls for a rye loaf of some sort. Lady Boudin

Samartha Deva wrote:

><snip>
> 1 acid content bacteria mio/g yeasts mio/g
> 2 T 70 100 200 70 100 200 70 100 200
> 3 30 11.4 9.3 7.2 1038 846 562 44 54 65
>
> line 1 - what's below
> line 2 - hydrations
> line 3 - values
> mio/g is million critters per gram
>
>
> Samartha

==========================================
What is the T in line 2?
What is the 30 in line 3?

Thanks, Joe Umstead