Hi All,

I've been trying to up my sourdough game recently. For years I used the KAF recipe calling for 1 cup of sourdough starter, mixed with flour and water overnight for the leaven, then more flour for the final dough. That usually worked, but I had to be really careful about overproofing and mindful that the protease enzymes didn't start to break down the gluten. The bread wasn't the top quality I wanted, but very good and I could always go back to that method.

HOWEVER...I'm interested in getting more of that hearth/artisan style, and to that effect I have taken a short course to practice using locally-milled (New York) wheats, which have different effect on bread, and which also gave me lots of practice shaping and feeling the proper dough. Before that class, I'd tried and failed to use the Tartine bread baking book's method of one tablespoon of starter for a lot of flour. The dough seems alright through the process, but doesn't seem to develop any sourdough smell. Worse, even when I cook using a cast iron pot, preheated according to the wisdom out there, I'm getting a loaf that has giant holes at the top, a very overcooked bottom, and a raw taste, very sticky cut side of the final loaf. I tried again after taking the class, being mindful of how I was shaping (I thought that was the issue) and SAME result. The dough, made with bread flour and whole wheat flour, is a grayish brown. Used the low-knead, turn-every-hour method.

So...anyone want to join me in helping to troubleshoot artisan bread baking?

Anyone with experience and success with the Tartine basic recipe?

My variables that could be causing the gummy, flavorless bread issue:
-The shaping...I am getting there, and with other recipes, seem to do alright...but still. RESOLVING to keep practicing this.
-The fermentation and proof times: I'm getting good gas formation, but maybe I need to go longer in proofing for flavor development and more gas. I'm still nervous about proteases, but I have only 1/16 the normal amount of bacteria and enzymes so my rise times should be much longer. RESOLVING: Try a cold proof or long bulk ferment next time
-The cast iron pan: is it too hot and burning the bottom of the bread before it gets its spring on?
-The cast iron pan LID: is it trapping too much steam and essentially boiling the bread (my baked bread has been 212 degrees internal temp, which I hear is very hard to achieve even in a commercial bakery, but proof it's not raw)?? With a wet dough (70% hydration at least) maybe I need less moisture trapping.

Thanks!

On Sun, 3 Feb 2013 05:20:06 -0800 (PST), Rachel Schell-Lambert
> wrote:

>Hi All,
>

>HOWEVER...I'm interested in getting more of that hearth/artisan style, and to that effect I
> have taken a short course to practice using locally-milled (New York) wheats, which have
>different effect on bread, and which also gave me lots of practice shaping and feeling the
>proper dough. Before that class, I'd tried and failed to use the Tartine bread baking book's
>method of one tablespoon of starter for a lot of flour. The dough seems alright through the
>process, but doesn't seem to develop any sourdough smell.

Then you have succeeded with the Tartine method. He goes out of his
way to avoid a traditional "sourdough" taste.

>Worse, even when I cook using
>a cast iron pot, preheated according to the wisdom out there, I'm getting a loaf that has
>giant holes at the top, a very overcooked bottom, and a raw taste, very sticky cut side of the
> final loaf. I tried again after taking the class, being mindful of how I was shaping (I thought
>that was the issue) and SAME result. The dough, made with bread flour and whole wheat
>flour, is a grayish brown. Used the low-knead, turn-every-hour method.

Basic question...is your oven temp accurate? I am guessing that an
overly-high bottom heat and/or a flawed cast iron pan may be
contributing to some of your problems.

The final color of the loaf may have something to do with the new
flours you are using, especially the WW flour.
>
>So...anyone want to join me in helping to troubleshoot artisan bread baking?
>
>Anyone with experience and success with the Tartine basic recipe?
>
>My variables that could be causing the gummy, flavorless bread issue:
>-The shaping...I am getting there, and with other recipes, seem to do alright...but still. RESOLVING to keep practicing this.

There are a lot of videos online, and you have observed what you were
shown in class. Practice, practice, practice.


>-The fermentation and proof times: I'm getting good gas formation, but maybe I need to go longer in
> proofing for flavor development and more gas. I'm still nervous about proteases, but I have only
>1/16 the normal amount of bacteria and enzymes so my rise times should be much longer.

Stop your concerns about the specific chemistry unless you can
pinpoint some flaws with your starter - in which case, create or
purchase another one.

>RESOLVING: Try a cold proof or long bulk ferment next time

Works for me. All my doughs spend overnight in the fridge before I
consider them decent enough to go onto the next phases of bread
making.

Keep in mind that whatever any recipe tells you about proofing/rise
timeframes that it is your own flours, kitchen temp and treatment of
the dough insofar as gluten formation are the keys to the loaf. You
must determine the peak of ripeness of your starter, your bulk
proofing, your final proofing...the timing at one of these stages can
vary from week to week, too.

>-The cast iron pan: is it too hot and burning the bottom of the bread before it gets its spring on?

Hmmm, yeah, might be. I wrote what I did above before reading this.
part.

>-The cast iron pan LID: is it trapping too much steam and essentially boiling the bread (my baked bread
>has been 212 degrees internal temp, which I hear is very hard to achieve even in a commercial
> bakery, but proof it's not raw)?? With a wet dough (70% hydration at least) maybe I need less moisture trapping.
>
You generally remove the pan lid part way through baking.

Are you using a cold oven start or a hot oven start. What temp are you
baking at?

Boron

Hi Boron,

Thanks for the encouragement.

I'm starting with a very hot pre-heated oven, with the pan heated inside it.. My latest loaf turned out much better with a longer bulk ferment and the overnight cold rise in the fridge. I took the temp of the loaf as it emerged from cold proofing and it was 44 degrees! Seemed really cold and not as aerated as I'd want after a proof, so I let it warm up 2 hrs before baking.

I placed the dough on parchment to slash it so I wouldn't be so nervous about doing that step quickly and without burning myself. This helped me slash deeper and that resulted in much better spring, though the dough wanted to spread, teetering on the edge of not enough structure/overproofing. Still have the really tough bottom crust, so I'm thinking it's the hot hot hot cast iron pan.

I removed the lid after 30 minutes, and the crust was already browning.

My shaping improved--holes were distributed better and there was nice even rising.

When I compare my successes with past loaves, I think it's perhaps the red fife wheat or high-gluten flour that could be the major contributor to the gummy crumb. Using white flour or a more standard bread flour blend (KAF for instance) I've had the nice well-baked interior crumb. This recent loaf was less gummy on the outer edge of the loaf, but in the middle still was moist/gummy. However, it was edible this time! I've seen suggestions for loaves using entirely bread flour, so i don't know if it's the cause of the texture or un-sour un-cooked flavor (improved this time). Or is it the whole grain?

My flour mix was 100g all-purpose, 100g red fife, 100g rye, 200g bread flour. 75% hydration. I only made one loaf out of this amount of flour...another thought is this is too much dough, so the density of the loaf in the center contributes to the innermost slices seeming underbaked (despite reaching 211 degrees when coming out of the oven).

Not sure what to tweak next time...the high-gluten flour, the whole wheat content (assume I'd rather have a loaf with the whole grain flour), the moisture or the shape/size.

Or maybe I'll do everything the same and just see if there are inconsistencies that come out from one baking to the next.

On Sunday, February 3, 2013 8:20:06 AM UTC-5, Rachel Schell-Lambert wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> I've been trying to up my sourdough game recently. For years I used the KAF recipe calling for 1 cup of sourdough starter, mixed with flour and water overnight for the leaven, then more flour for the final dough. That usually worked, but I had to be really careful about overproofing and mindful that the protease enzymes didn't start to break down the gluten. The bread wasn't the top quality I wanted, but very good and I could always go back to that method.
>
>
>
> HOWEVER...I'm interested in getting more of that hearth/artisan style, and to that effect I have taken a short course to practice using locally-milled (New York) wheats, which have different effect on bread, and which also gave me lots of practice shaping and feeling the proper dough. Before that class, I'd tried and failed to use the Tartine bread baking book's method of one tablespoon of starter for a lot of flour. The dough seems alright through the process, but doesn't seem to develop any sourdough smell. Worse, even when I cook using a cast iron pot, preheated according to the wisdom out there, I'm getting a loaf that has giant holes at the top, a very overcooked bottom, and a raw taste, very sticky cut side of the final loaf. I tried again after taking the class, being mindful of how I was shaping (I thought that was the issue) and SAME result. The dough, made with bread flour and whole wheat flour, is a grayish brown. Used the low-knead, turn-every-hour method.
>
>
>
> So...anyone want to join me in helping to troubleshoot artisan bread baking?
>
>
>
> Anyone with experience and success with the Tartine basic recipe?
>
>
>
> My variables that could be causing the gummy, flavorless bread issue:
>
> -The shaping...I am getting there, and with other recipes, seem to do alright...but still. RESOLVING to keep practicing this.
>
> -The fermentation and proof times: I'm getting good gas formation, but maybe I need to go longer in proofing for flavor development and more gas. I'm still nervous about proteases, but I have only 1/16 the normal amount of bacteria and enzymes so my rise times should be much longer. RESOLVING: Try a cold proof or long bulk ferment next time
>
> -The cast iron pan: is it too hot and burning the bottom of the bread before it gets its spring on?
>
> -The cast iron pan LID: is it trapping too much steam and essentially boiling the bread (my baked bread has been 212 degrees internal temp, which I hear is very hard to achieve even in a commercial bakery, but proof it's not raw)?? With a wet dough (70% hydration at least) maybe I need less moisture trapping.
>
>
>
> Thanks!

On Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:01:23 -0800 (PST), Rachel Schell-Lambert
> wrote:

>Hi Boron,
>
>Thanks for the encouragement.
>
>I'm starting with a very hot pre-heated oven, with the pan heated inside it. My latest loaf turned out much better with a longer
>bulk ferment and the overnight cold rise in the fridge. I took the temp of the loaf as it emerged from cold proofing and it was
>44 degrees! Seemed really cold and not as aerated as I'd want after a proof, so I let it warm up 2 hrs before baking.
>
>I placed the dough on parchment to slash it so I wouldn't be so nervous about doing that step quickly and without
>burning myself. This helped me slash deeper and that resulted in much better spring, though the dough wanted to spread,
>teetering on the edge of not enough structure/overproofing. Still have the really tough bottom crust, so I'm thinking it's the hot hot hot cast iron pan.
>
>I removed the lid after 30 minutes, and the crust was already browning.
>
>My shaping improved--holes were distributed better and there was nice even rising.
>
>When I compare my successes with past loaves, I think it's perhaps the red fife wheat or high-gluten flour that could be
>the major contributor to the gummy crumb. Using white flour or a more standard bread flour blend (KAF for instance) I've had the
>nice well-baked interior crumb. This recent loaf was less gummy on the outer edge of the loaf, but in the middle still was moist/gummy.
>However, it was edible this time! I've seen suggestions for loaves using entirely bread flour, so i don't know if it's the cause of the texture or
>un-sour un-cooked flavor (improved this time). Or is it the whole grain?

I think your heat may be higher than you think, and the pan you are
using may also be affecting this. If your loaf is gummy in the center
it is underbaked and maybe underproofed.

The size of your loaf may be part of it, too. You might want to start
at a higher temp, then drop back 50-75 degrees after the first 7-10
minutes.

And use a thermometer to take the temp of the bread at its thickest
part when you think it is done. It should be 200-205 F.

>My flour mix was 100g all-purpose, 100g red fife, 100g rye, 200g bread flour. 75% hydration. I only made one loaf out of this amount of flour...
>another thought is this is too much dough, so the density of the loaf in the center contributes to the innermost slices seeming
>underbaked (despite reaching 211 degrees when coming out of the oven).
>
>Not sure what to tweak next time...the high-gluten flour, the whole wheat content (assume I'd rather have a loaf with the whole
>grain flour), the moisture or the shape/size.
>
>Or maybe I'll do everything the same and just see if there are inconsistencies that come out from one baking to the next.
>

I can't offer any advice directly to your flours, as I am unfamiliar
with the red fife you mention.

High gluten flour should be good for breads, but it depends on what
sort of breads you are making.

If you dough is not thoroughly proofed, the interior may be more dense
than the exterior and the high temp will give you your exterior oven
spring quickly, but may inhibit full volume from the interior.

Try smaller loaves. Try some lowering of temp. Take the temp of the
breads before you remove them from the oven. Nothing to lose but flour
salt and water.

Boron

On Sunday, February 3, 2013 7:20:06 AM UTC-6, Rachel Schell-Lambert wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> I've been trying to up my sourdough game recently. For years I used the KAF recipe calling for 1 cup of sourdough starter, mixed with flour and water overnight for the leaven, then more flour for the final dough. That usually worked, but I had to be really careful about overproofing and mindful that the protease enzymes didn't start to break down the gluten. The bread wasn't the top quality I wanted, but very good and I could always go back to that method.
>
>
>
> HOWEVER...I'm interested in getting more of that hearth/artisan style, and to that effect I have taken a short course to practice using locally-milled (New York) wheats, which have different effect on bread, and which also gave me lots of practice shaping and feeling the proper dough. Before that class, I'd tried and failed to use the Tartine bread baking book's method of one tablespoon of starter for a lot of flour. The dough seems alright through the process, but doesn't seem to develop any sourdough smell. Worse, even when I cook using a cast iron pot, preheated according to the wisdom out there, I'm getting a loaf that has giant holes at the top, a very overcooked bottom, and a raw taste, very sticky cut side of the final loaf. I tried again after taking the class, being mindful of how I was shaping (I thought that was the issue) and SAME result. The dough, made with bread flour and whole wheat flour, is a grayish brown. Used the low-knead, turn-every-hour method.
>
>
>
> So...anyone want to join me in helping to troubleshoot artisan bread baking?
>
>
>
> Anyone with experience and success with the Tartine basic recipe?
>
>
>
> My variables that could be causing the gummy, flavorless bread issue:
>
> -The shaping...I am getting there, and with other recipes, seem to do alright...but still. RESOLVING to keep practicing this.
>
> -The fermentation and proof times: I'm getting good gas formation, but maybe I need to go longer in proofing for flavor development and more gas. I'm still nervous about proteases, but I have only 1/16 the normal amount of bacteria and enzymes so my rise times should be much longer. RESOLVING: Try a cold proof or long bulk ferment next time
>
> -The cast iron pan: is it too hot and burning the bottom of the bread before it gets its spring on?
>
> -The cast iron pan LID: is it trapping too much steam and essentially boiling the bread (my baked bread has been 212 degrees internal temp, which I hear is very hard to achieve even in a commercial bakery, but proof it's not raw)?? With a wet dough (70% hydration at least) maybe I need less moisture trapping.
>
>
>
> Thanks!

Rachel,

I haven't commented on this list for a while. Was a regular several years ago until the spam took over. But here goes...

1) move the casserole two or three inches higher in your oven. You are too close to the radiant heat from the oven floor. You might even want to deflect some of that radiant energy with a sheet pan on a lower rack.

2) do not put a cold rise dough in the casserole. Put a warm dough in. Your spring will be much more even if the dough is 75-85 degrees than 40-50 degrees.

3) as Boron suggests, do your bulk retard cold. Aging dough is critical for good crumb. But do your final proof hot.

4) Make a proof box: low profile rubbermaid storage container plus heat pad.. Cheap to do... $5 for box, $15 for heat pad. Use it. It will ensure good gas dispersion and give you a dependable production schedule.

5) do not keep the casserole lid on. Remove it after 12-15 minutes. Otherwise you have excessive steam and the resulting crumb is gummy.

You will find that using a proof box and running at 80-85 degrees for final proof will give you a good floral aroma. It may or may not cause the bread to be sour. A lot depends on your starter. Personally, I am not a sour-head. If you are looking for more sour notes, consider adding 50 grams of rye to your initial starter build. Or, consider using 150 grams of old dough. Or both.

Check out Jeffry Hamelman's book from the library. He uses preferments extensively. It's good technique.

Will

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:01:23 -0800 (PST), Rachel Schell-Lambert
> > wrote:
>
>>Hi Boron,
>>
>>Thanks for the encouragement.
>>
>>I'm starting with a very hot pre-heated oven, with the pan heated inside
>>it. My latest loaf turned out much better with a longer
>>bulk ferment and the overnight cold rise in the fridge. I took the temp
>>of the loaf as it emerged from cold proofing and it was
>>44 degrees! Seemed really cold and not as aerated as I'd want after a
>>proof, so I let it warm up 2 hrs before baking.
>>
>>I placed the dough on parchment to slash it so I wouldn't be so nervous
>>about doing that step quickly and without
>>burning myself. This helped me slash deeper and that resulted in much
>>better spring, though the dough wanted to spread,
>>teetering on the edge of not enough structure/overproofing. Still have
>>the really tough bottom crust, so I'm thinking it's the hot hot hot cast
>>iron pan.
>>
>>I removed the lid after 30 minutes, and the crust was already browning.
>>
>>My shaping improved--holes were distributed better and there was nice even
>>rising.
>>
>>When I compare my successes with past loaves, I think it's perhaps the red
>>fife wheat or high-gluten flour that could be
>>the major contributor to the gummy crumb. Using white flour or a more
>>standard bread flour blend (KAF for instance) I've had the
>>nice well-baked interior crumb. This recent loaf was less gummy on the
>>outer edge of the loaf, but in the middle still was moist/gummy.
>>However, it was edible this time! I've seen suggestions for loaves using
>>entirely bread flour, so i don't know if it's the cause of the texture or
>>un-sour un-cooked flavor (improved this time). Or is it the whole grain?
>
> I think your heat may be higher than you think, and the pan you are
> using may also be affecting this. If your loaf is gummy in the center
> it is underbaked and maybe underproofed.
>
> The size of your loaf may be part of it, too. You might want to start
> at a higher temp, then drop back 50-75 degrees after the first 7-10
> minutes.
>
> And use a thermometer to take the temp of the bread at its thickest
> part when you think it is done. It should be 200-205 F.
>
>>My flour mix was 100g all-purpose, 100g red fife, 100g rye, 200g bread
>>flour. 75% hydration. I only made one loaf out of this amount of
>>flour...
>>another thought is this is too much dough, so the density of the loaf in
>>the center contributes to the innermost slices seeming
>>underbaked (despite reaching 211 degrees when coming out of the oven).
>>
>>Not sure what to tweak next time...the high-gluten flour, the whole wheat
>>content (assume I'd rather have a loaf with the whole
>>grain flour), the moisture or the shape/size.
>>
>>Or maybe I'll do everything the same and just see if there are
>>inconsistencies that come out from one baking to the next.
>>
>
> I can't offer any advice directly to your flours, as I am unfamiliar
> with the red fife you mention.
>
> High gluten flour should be good for breads, but it depends on what
> sort of breads you are making.
>
> If you dough is not thoroughly proofed, the interior may be more dense
> than the exterior and the high temp will give you your exterior oven
> spring quickly, but may inhibit full volume from the interior.
>
> Try smaller loaves. Try some lowering of temp. Take the temp of the
> breads before you remove them from the oven. Nothing to lose but flour
> salt and water.
>
I wonder if she should cut the hydration back to 68-70%, or even 65% with
that flour mix.
Graham