I have been following the recipe exactly. To get the organic stone
ground whole wheat, I went to a local artisan bakery who mill their
own. I talked to the owner and he sent his mexican helper to get my
10 pound bag.
I've read that some of you are familiar with this recipe, but for the
rest, it calls for a stiff dough buried in a sack of flour and stored
at 50-65 degrees.
Everything was going well. I am proud of my cooler with water and a
bucket to keep the starter dry and cool. After a week I made the
trial bread with the immature desam. It didn't knead or rise very
well. The bread was heavy, dark, and moist. But it tasted good
(tasted like rye!?) and was gone within 4 days. The desam looked so
healthy, I decided to try again. Same results again (duhhhh). I
can't believe how long it took me to realize my mistake.
I'm going to continue right along with whole wheat flour for the
feeding and bread making. I figure the rye is a good fermenter and
the strong taste will eventually dissapear.
What do you think? Should I start over?

Thanks, I've been reading for just a few weeks, appears to be a great
group.

Pam

On 13 Sep 2004 08:49:22 -0700, (Pam Allen)
wrote:

>I have been following the recipe exactly. To get the organic stone
>ground whole wheat, I went to a local artisan bakery who mill their
>own. I talked to the owner and he sent his mexican helper to get my
>10 pound bag.
>I've read that some of you are familiar with this recipe, but for the
>rest, it calls for a stiff dough buried in a sack of flour and stored
>at 50-65 degrees.
>Everything was going well. I am proud of my cooler with water and a
>bucket to keep the starter dry and cool. After a week I made the
>trial bread with the immature desam. It didn't knead or rise very
>well. The bread was heavy, dark, and moist. But it tasted good
>(tasted like rye!?) and was gone within 4 days. The desam looked so
>healthy, I decided to try again. Same results again (duhhhh). I
>can't believe how long it took me to realize my mistake.
>I'm going to continue right along with whole wheat flour for the
>feeding and bread making. I figure the rye is a good fermenter and
>the strong taste will eventually dissapear.
>What do you think? Should I start over?
>
>Thanks, I've been reading for just a few weeks, appears to be a great
>group.
>
>Pam

Hi Pam,

I would not "start over" but would suggest instead that you consider
simply feeding your rye starter with wheat to "transfer" it over to
the sort that you were hoping to create.

I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical
to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is
buried in all that flour?

Have fun whatever you try...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Pam Allen" > wrote in message =
om...

> What do you think? Should I start over?

You should get in the habit of composing your thoughts before you
start. In the meantime, it is not too late to order a known starter
from a trusted source. It may not give the same result as Laurel's
desem doughball, but it will, at leaste, give a predictable result.

> I've been reading for just a few weeks, appears to be=20
> a great group.

Maybe so, but did you know that some of the personnages who have,=20
from time to time, appeared here at r.f.s. are operating as gurus over
there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/, mostly reselling
http://samartha.net/SD/ and the likes of Peter Reinhart. For one thing,
everybody is nice over there, and there is no spooky talk about things
like kitchen faeries.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Pam Allen" > wrote in message =
om...

> What do you think? Should I start over?

You should get in the habit of composing your thoughts before you
start. In the meantime, it is not too late to order a known starter
from a trusted source. It may not give the same result as Laurel's
desem doughball, but it will, at leaste, give a predictable result.

> I've been reading for just a few weeks, appears to be=20
> a great group.

Maybe so, but did you know that some of the personnages who have,=20
from time to time, appeared here at r.f.s. are operating as gurus over
there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/, mostly reselling
http://samartha.net/SD/ and the likes of Peter Reinhart. For one thing,
everybody is nice over there, and there is no spooky talk about things
like kitchen faeries.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

<snip>>

>I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical
> to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is
> buried in all that flour?
>
> Have fun whatever you try...
>
> All the best,
>

Kenneth,

I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as
wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I
wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place.

Like you, I don't think the desem ball "knows" it's buried in the flour but
it is well insulated there and away from bothersome contamination as well.

I have a hypothesis: the closer you keep to the grain's natural germination
moisture level, the more likely it is you will stimulate the right LB
complex. I figure the LB's are there to facilitate the initial starch to
sugar conversion which powers the the sprouting process.

Will

<snip>>

>I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical
> to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is
> buried in all that flour?
>

Kenneth,

I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as
wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I
wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place.

Like you, I don't think the desem ball "knows" it's buried in the flour but
it is well insulated there and away from bothersome contamination as well.

I have a hypothesis: the closer you keep to the grain's natural germination
moisture level, the more likely it is you will stimulate the right LB
complex. I figure the LB's are there to facilitate the initial starch to
sugar conversion which powers the sprouting process.

(Which by the way might be why we occasionally see starter recipes use cumin
or other seeds...)


Will

"Dick Adams" > wrote
>
> You should get in the habit of composing your thoughts before you
> start.

So should you...before you post.


I said it once, and I'll say it again: You're an asshole.

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:01:04 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote:

>(Which by the way might be why we occasionally see starter recipes use cumin
>or other seeds...)
>
>
>Will

Hey Will,

I was trackin' with you until you got to the seeds... What is the
connection you see?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message >...

> You should get in the habit of composing your thoughts before you
> start. In the meantime, it is not too late to order a known starter
> from a trusted source. It may not give the same result as Laurel's
> desem doughball, but it will, at least, give a predictable result.
>
> > I've been reading for just a few weeks, appears to be
> > a great group.
>
> Maybe so, but did you know that some of the personnages who have,
> from time to time, appeared here at r.f.s. are operating as gurus over
> there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/, mostly reselling
> http://samartha.net/SD/ and the likes of Peter Reinhart. For one thing,
> everybody is nice over there, and there is no spooky talk about things
> like kitchen faeries.

Hi Dick,

Thanks for the referral. You are right, I probably don't belong here.
I've noticed that whole wheat and homemade starters are not really
appreciated here. I've also noticed that the threads go way off
topic, too.

Have fun,

Pam

On 9/13/04 5:53 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:01:04 -0500, williamwaller
> > wrote:
>
>> (Which by the way might be why we occasionally see starter recipes use cumin
>> or other seeds...)
>>
>>
>> Will
>
> Hey Will,
>
> I was trackin' with you until you got to the seeds... What is the
> connection you see?
>
> Thanks,

I've seen cumin seed recommended in a number of places.
It always perplexed me, even more than the BS about potatoes and bizarre
notion that armpits contribute to the process. I was thinking that if LB's
are ecologically/symbiotically related to grains for germination perhaps
LB's perform similar tasks for other plants ie: cumin.

Will

Pam Allen wrote:

> Hi Dick,
>
> Thanks for the referral. You are right, I probably don't belong here.
> I've noticed that whole wheat and homemade starters are not really
> appreciated here.
>

Hi Pam,

I am a whole grain junkie, and if you ignore the off topic threads you
will find some useful information here.

I find that the recipies and experiences posted here do have application
to whole grain sourdough bread. I have learned to not expect the loft of
the holey grail of breads, that rustic open-crumb larged hole bread that
everyone here seems to aspire to.

I personally love the whole grain rye bread I make, and I use Carl's
starter, it is reliable, see: http://www.carlsfriends.org/

I have tried the desem, but to tell you the truth I got bored with it. I
made a doorstop or two, and then stuck the desem in the freezer for
future experimentation. I like the taste of sourdough rye much better.

If you are looking for information on whole grain starters, Samartha's
site is a great place to start:

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

I do agree the threads here lately have have overspun their usefulness.

Heather
_amaryllsiATyahooDOTcom

Pam Allen wrote:

> Hi Dick,
>
> Thanks for the referral. You are right, I probably don't belong here.
> I've noticed that whole wheat and homemade starters are not really
> appreciated here.
>

Hi Pam,

I am a whole grain junkie, and if you ignore the off topic threads you
will find some useful information here.

I find that the recipies and experiences posted here do have application
to whole grain sourdough bread. I have learned to not expect the loft of
the holey grail of breads, that rustic open-crumb larged hole bread that
everyone here seems to aspire to.

I personally love the whole grain rye bread I make, and I use Carl's
starter, it is reliable, see: http://www.carlsfriends.org/

I have tried the desem, but to tell you the truth I got bored with it. I
made a doorstop or two, and then stuck the desem in the freezer for
future experimentation. I like the taste of sourdough rye much better.

If you are looking for information on whole grain starters, Samartha's
site is a great place to start:

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

I do agree the threads here lately have have overspun their usefulness.

Heather
_amaryllsiATyahooDOTcom

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:01:04 -0500, williamwaller
> > wrote:
>
> >(Which by the way might be why we occasionally see starter recipes use
cumin
> >or other seeds...)
> >
> >
> >Will
>
> Hey Will,
>
> I was trackin' with you until you got to the seeds... What is the
> connection you see?
>
Ortiz uses a pinch or so of powdered cumin in the first stage of making a
pain-au-levain chef. Why, I don't know unless it's to curry favor with the
bread fairies;-)
Graham

Pam Allen wrote:

> Hi Dick,
>
> Thanks for the referral. You are right, I probably don't belong here.
> I've noticed that whole wheat and homemade starters are not really
> appreciated here.
>

Hi Pam,

I am a whole grain junkie, and if you ignore the off topic threads you
will find some useful information here.

I find that the recipies and experiences posted here do have application
to whole grain sourdough bread. I have learned to not expect the loft of
the holey grail of breads, that rustic open-crumb larged hole bread that
everyone here seems to aspire to.

I personally love the whole grain rye bread I make, and I use Carl's
starter, it is reliable, see: http://www.carlsfriends.org/

I have tried the desem, but to tell you the truth I got bored with it. I
made a doorstop or two, and then stuck the desem in the freezer for
future experimentation. I like the taste of sourdough rye much better.

If you are looking for information on whole grain starters, Samartha's
site is a great place to start:

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

Heather
_amaryllsiATyahooDOTcom

> >I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical
> > to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is
> > buried in all that flour?

I read somewhere, maybe here, that all the yeast and LB organisms are
already in the flour as long as they haven't been killed off by
bleach, pesticides, high heat, or time. The undesireables are
floating around in the air. This is the theory I'm subscribing to for
the moment. I'm looking foward to a complex, not to sour taste. I'll
let you know.

> I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as
> wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I
> wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place.
>
So many have mentioned rye as the ideal starter flour. You may be
right. It would be fun to ask her. In 20 years, she's probably tried
it too.

Pam

> >I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical
> > to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is
> > buried in all that flour?

I read somewhere, maybe here, that all the yeast and LB organisms are
already in the flour as long as they haven't been killed off by
bleach, pesticides, high heat, or time. The undesireables are
floating around in the air. This is the theory I'm subscribing to for
the moment. I'm looking foward to a complex, not to sour taste. I'll
let you know.

> I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as
> wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I
> wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place.
>
So many have mentioned rye as the ideal starter flour. You may be
right. It would be fun to ask her. In 20 years, she's probably tried
it too.

Pam

"Pam Allen" wrote in message
om...

> You are right, I probably don't belong here.

Sure you belong here.

> I've noticed that whole wheat and homemade starters are not really
> appreciated here.

Obviously, I can only speak for myself, but I appreciate both. There is a
certain sense of accomplishment that comes from making anything from
scratch, a starter included. It's true that obtaining a starter that is
known to be good can give you a feel for what to expect from a starter, but
one can also judge their starter based upon how closely it behaves in
relation to what the recipe/formula details. If the recipe says that the
dough should have doubled in four hours at a certain temperature and yours
takes eight then either you've got a starter problem or didn't follow the
instructions properly. I had only used my own homemade starter for quite a
few years before I got some Carl's a few months back. I now alternate
between the two when I bake. I still can't tell the difference between the
Carl's and my own when it comes to the bread.

I'm also a whole wheat fan. I don't really see the attraction of using all
white flour in bread, but that's me. Others obviously feel differently, but
that's a good thing. We can all learn from those that approach things
differently that we.

>I've also noticed that the threads go way off
> topic, too.

Do you know of any unmoderated newsgroups where they don't? There are a lot
of very knowledgeable people who post here. There is something to be learned
from them all.

Take care,
-Mike

"Pam Allen" > wrote in message =
om...

> Thanks for the referral. You are right, I probably don't belong here.

I didn't say that, at least I did not mean to if I did. You have =
inspired
quite a long thread with the report of your accidental desam.

> I've noticed that whole wheat and homemade starters are not really
> appreciated here.

That is not true, either. With rye starters, they are practically the
whole show. If everybody started with starters that work, there would
be far less to talk about. As far as desem dough balls are concerned,
with wheat or rye or whatever, desem doughball making is a really
weird way to start a starter, and usually unproductive, so, in that
respect, another source of virtually endless threads at r.f.s.

> I've also noticed that the threads go way off topic, too.

Yeah, well, that is probably OK if they are not too boring.

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.4.1095109272.227.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> I have a hypothesis: the closer you keep to the grain's natural =
germination
> moisture level, the more likely it is you will stimulate the right LB
> complex.=20

Right for what? Germination does quite well without any LB complexes.

> I figure the LB's are there to facilitate the initial starch to sugar =
conversion=20
> which powers the sprouting process.

I don't think that there are any LB in seeds, if that is what you are =
talking
about. There is stuff in grain that chews starch down to sugar, but it=20
has nothing to do with lactobacteria, according to my sources.

> (Which by the way might be why we occasionally see starter recipes=20
> use cumin or other seeds...)

Sometimes things are used in recipes that make no sense at all because
somebody, in some deranged state of mind, at some point in ancient time,
wrongly thought that such use made sense, and because nobody in the
intervening years had the presence of mind to question the stupidity
of the practice.

"Phil" > wrote in message =
om...

> I said it once, and I'll say it again: You're an asshole.

Well, I guess Phil is consistent, if not entirely eloquent. Anything
else, Phil?

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

I don't have the patience or temperature conditions for real desem. I
bake a 100% whole wheat loaf roughly following Laurel's instructions
but using a normal extra-stiff ww starter. (Normal= originally created
over a week at room temperature in a jar.)

I use a walnut-sized piece of firm ww starter (which I roll in flour
before storing in fridge). This gets expanded with 1/3c ww flour,
then 1c ww flour, and finally 2-3c ww flour and salt. Kneaded 20
minutes, then rise-shape-proof bake. (I rise and proof at room
temperature instead of cool then warm.)

I've never tried desem, but the bread's been turning out well. The
bread tastes nutty and wheaty, and slightly sour. I've read real
desem is not sour at all, so perhaps mine is not really similar--I'm
dying to know. In other words, will any ww bread taste the same if
given a long cool rise followed by a short hot rise? Or there
something magical about a desem starter?

Jonathan

(Pam Allen) wrote in message . com>...
> I have been following the recipe exactly. To get the organic stone
> ground whole wheat, I went to a local artisan bakery who mill their
> own. I talked to the owner and he sent his mexican helper to get my
> 10 pound bag.
> I've read that some of you are familiar with this recipe, but for the
> rest, it calls for a stiff dough buried in a sack of flour and stored
> at 50-65 degrees.
> Everything was going well. I am proud of my cooler with water and a
> bucket to keep the starter dry and cool. After a week I made the
> trial bread with the immature desam. It didn't knead or rise very
> well. The bread was heavy, dark, and moist. But it tasted good
> (tasted like rye!?) and was gone within 4 days. The desam looked so
> healthy, I decided to try again. Same results again (duhhhh). I
> can't believe how long it took me to realize my mistake.
> I'm going to continue right along with whole wheat flour for the
> feeding and bread making. I figure the rye is a good fermenter and
> the strong taste will eventually dissapear.
> What do you think? Should I start over?

I don't have the patience or temperature conditions for real desem. I
bake a 100% whole wheat loaf roughly following Laurel's instructions
but using a normal extra-stiff ww starter. (Normal= originally created
over a week at room temperature in a jar.)

I use a walnut-sized piece of firm ww starter (which I roll in flour
before storing in fridge). This gets expanded with 1/3c ww flour,
then 1c ww flour, and finally 2-3c ww flour and salt. Kneaded 20
minutes, then rise-shape-proof bake. (I rise and proof at room
temperature instead of cool then warm.)

I've never tried desem, but the bread's been turning out well. The
bread tastes nutty and wheaty, and slightly sour. I've read real
desem is not sour at all, so perhaps mine is not really similar--I'm
dying to know. In other words, will any ww bread taste the same if
given a long cool rise followed by a short hot rise? Or there
something magical about a desem starter?

Jonathan

(Pam Allen) wrote in message . com>...
> I have been following the recipe exactly. To get the organic stone
> ground whole wheat, I went to a local artisan bakery who mill their
> own. I talked to the owner and he sent his mexican helper to get my
> 10 pound bag.
> I've read that some of you are familiar with this recipe, but for the
> rest, it calls for a stiff dough buried in a sack of flour and stored
> at 50-65 degrees.
> Everything was going well. I am proud of my cooler with water and a
> bucket to keep the starter dry and cool. After a week I made the
> trial bread with the immature desam. It didn't knead or rise very
> well. The bread was heavy, dark, and moist. But it tasted good
> (tasted like rye!?) and was gone within 4 days. The desam looked so
> healthy, I decided to try again. Same results again (duhhhh). I
> can't believe how long it took me to realize my mistake.
> I'm going to continue right along with whole wheat flour for the
> feeding and bread making. I figure the rye is a good fermenter and
> the strong taste will eventually dissapear.
> What do you think? Should I start over?

On 9/13/04 11:31 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

> As far as desem dough balls are concerned,
> with wheat or rye or whatever, desem doughball making is a really
> weird way to start a starter, and usually unproductive, so, in that
> respect, another source of virtually endless threads at r.f.s.

Actually, I think it is the easiest way to go. My two most recent starters
(2001) began as buried doughballs. I wasn't wondering whether or not I had
competing flora that the LB's had to overcome, covering glass jars,
adjusting temperatures, smelling for progress everyday, looking at growth
curves and bubbles.

Worked like a charm. Perhaps it helps to mill one's own grain. I have never
tried it with store bought flour.

Will

On 9/13/04 11:31 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

> As far as desem dough balls are concerned,
> with wheat or rye or whatever, desem doughball making is a really
> weird way to start a starter, and usually unproductive, so, in that
> respect, another source of virtually endless threads at r.f.s.

Actually, I think it is the easiest way to go. My two most recent starters
(2001) began as buried doughballs. I wasn't wondering whether or not I had
competing flora that the LB's had to overcome, covering glass jars,
adjusting temperatures, smelling for progress everyday, looking at growth
curves and bubbles.

Worked like a charm. Perhaps it helps to mill one's own grain. I have never
tried it with store bought flour.

Will

"williamwaller" > wrote in message
news:mailman.6.1095160763.227.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> Actually, I think it (desem) is the easiest way to go. My two most =
recent starters
> (2001) began as buried doughballs.
=20
It is well-known that dumb luck can strike anywhere.

> I wasn't wondering whether or not I had competing flora that the=20
> LB's had to overcome, covering glass jars, adjusting temperatures,=20
> smelling for progress everyday, looking at growth curves and bubbles.

My theory is that many, if not most, sourdough-starter-starting =
successes
are related to sniffing, inasmuch as the human nose samples large =
volumes
of the atmosphere, impacting solids on mucous membranes, from which
they are carried posteriorly by snuffling and ciliary action and =
swallowed,
except for those captured in the anterior passages which, depending to=20
some extent on conditions of ambient humidity, may dry to flakes, and be
dislodged by the sort of rapid inhalations and expirations which =
constitute
sniffing, and thereupon be carried by gravity or forced air movement to
whatever may be below the anterior passages incident to the sniffing
process, which, in the case of sourdough sniffing, is the flour-water=20
mixture in which it is hoped that the sourdough microorganisms may
take up residence.

> Worked like a charm. Perhaps it helps to mill one's own grain. I have=20
> never tried it with store bought flour.

It can be effective with so-called "organic grains", meaning those that =
are
minimally treated with agricultural chemicals, inasmuch as these, like =
the
human nose, sample the air, in that case as the seed-bearing structures=20
open and expose the exteriors or the grains to the gentle breezes which=20
waft continually over the waving fields of grain.

My continued belief, however, is that the desem dough-ball technique is
a song-and-dance routine which mainly serves the interest of bake-book
writers, inasmuch as up to a chapter of an expensive bake-book can be=20
filled by a long-winded pseudoexplantion of it, which, by my evaluation,
is bound to be useless, except for fattening the book.

It may be recalled that Pam, the thread instigator, reported failure =
even=20
with rye flour, which according to most reports, is a better bet than =
wheat,
apparently because rye is naturally dirtier than wheat. That should be
taken into consideration inasmuch as there exists the possibility that =
Pam
proceeded with appropriate eptitude, in spite of apparently not knowing
which grain she was using.

---
DickA

"williamwaller" > wrote in message
news:mailman.6.1095160763.227.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> Actually, I think it (desem) is the easiest way to go. My two most =
recent starters
> (2001) began as buried doughballs.
=20
It is well-known that dumb luck can strike anywhere.

> I wasn't wondering whether or not I had competing flora that the=20
> LB's had to overcome, covering glass jars, adjusting temperatures,=20
> smelling for progress everyday, looking at growth curves and bubbles.

My theory is that many, if not most, sourdough-starter-starting =
successes
are related to sniffing, inasmuch as the human nose samples large =
volumes
of the atmosphere, impacting solids on mucous membranes, from which
they are carried posteriorly by snuffling and ciliary action and =
swallowed,
except for those captured in the anterior passages which, depending to=20
some extent on conditions of ambient humidity, may dry to flakes, and be
dislodged by the sort of rapid inhalations and expirations which =
constitute
sniffing, and thereupon be carried by gravity or forced air movement to
whatever may be below the anterior passages incident to the sniffing
process, which, in the case of sourdough sniffing, is the flour-water=20
mixture in which it is hoped that the sourdough microorganisms may
take up residence.

> Worked like a charm. Perhaps it helps to mill one's own grain. I have=20
> never tried it with store bought flour.

It can be effective with so-called "organic grains", meaning those that =
are
minimally treated with agricultural chemicals, inasmuch as these, like =
the
human nose, sample the air, in that case as the seed-bearing structures=20
open and expose the exteriors or the grains to the gentle breezes which=20
waft continually over the waving fields of grain.

My continued belief, however, is that the desem dough-ball technique is
a song-and-dance routine which mainly serves the interest of bake-book
writers, inasmuch as up to a chapter of an expensive bake-book can be=20
filled by a long-winded pseudoexplantion of it, which, by my evaluation,
is bound to be useless, except for fattening the book.

It may be recalled that Pam, the thread instigator, reported failure =
even=20
with rye flour, which according to most reports, is a better bet than =
wheat,
apparently because rye is naturally dirtier than wheat. That should be
taken into consideration inasmuch as there exists the possibility that =
Pam
proceeded with appropriate eptitude, in spite of apparently not knowing
which grain she was using.

---
DickA

On 9/14/04 7:39 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
>
> It may be recalled that Pam, the thread instigator, reported failure even
> with rye flour, which according to most reports, is a better bet than wheat,
> apparently because rye is naturally dirtier than wheat. That should be
> taken into consideration inasmuch as there exists the possibility that Pam
> proceeded with appropriate eptitude, in spite of apparently not knowing
> which grain she was using.
>
> ---
> DickA
>
Not quite... Pam had success generating a starter. It was the 100% rye
flour dough for the subsequent bread that had proofing and sticky issues.
She was seeking advice on transferring the rye starter to a wheat base.

As it happens, I like to make 100% rye bread. It is perfect for Wisconsin's
winter months. And it is a real challenge to get it to rise. Employing the
dryer desem style inoculation to the dough makes it even more difficult. It
really requires an active sponge transition first.

Will


> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 9/14/04 7:39 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
>
> It may be recalled that Pam, the thread instigator, reported failure even
> with rye flour, which according to most reports, is a better bet than wheat,
> apparently because rye is naturally dirtier than wheat. That should be
> taken into consideration inasmuch as there exists the possibility that Pam
> proceeded with appropriate eptitude, in spite of apparently not knowing
> which grain she was using.
>
> ---
> DickA
>
Not quite... Pam had success generating a starter. It was the 100% rye
flour dough for the subsequent bread that had proofing and sticky issues.
She was seeking advice on transferring the rye starter to a wheat base.

As it happens, I like to make 100% rye bread. It is perfect for Wisconsin's
winter months. And it is a real challenge to get it to rise. Employing the
dryer desem style inoculation to the dough makes it even more difficult. It
really requires an active sponge transition first.

Will


> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.7.1095170665.227.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> Not quite (a failure)... Pam had success generating a starter.=20
> It was the 100% rye flour dough for the subsequent bread=20
> that had proofing and sticky issues.

Clearly rye success cannot be measured by the usual standards.=20
She did report that the bread she made was finally consumed.=20

> She was seeking advice on transferring the rye starter to a=20
> wheat base.

I didn't get that. She seemed to be asking if she should start=20
over again. Otherwise she seemed confident about feeding her
rye starter with whole wheat flour.

> As it happens, I like to make 100% rye bread. It is perfect for =
Wisconsin's
> winter months. And it is a real challenge to get it to rise. Employing =
the
> dryer desem style inoculation to the dough makes it even more =
difficult. It
> really requires an active sponge transition first.

That is very courageous. Even SamaRtha is not attempting all-rye for =
loaves
to be risen. Be sure to keep us informed of your progress.

---
DickA

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.7.1095170665.227.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> Not quite (a failure)... Pam had success generating a starter.=20
> It was the 100% rye flour dough for the subsequent bread=20
> that had proofing and sticky issues.

Clearly rye success cannot be measured by the usual standards.=20
She did report that the bread she made was finally consumed.=20

> She was seeking advice on transferring the rye starter to a=20
> wheat base.

I didn't get that. She seemed to be asking if she should start=20
over again. Otherwise she seemed confident about feeding her
rye starter with whole wheat flour.

> As it happens, I like to make 100% rye bread. It is perfect for =
Wisconsin's
> winter months. And it is a real challenge to get it to rise. Employing =
the
> dryer desem style inoculation to the dough makes it even more =
difficult. It
> really requires an active sponge transition first.

That is very courageous. Even SamaRtha is not attempting all-rye for =
loaves
to be risen. Be sure to keep us informed of your progress.

---
DickA

On 9/14/04 9:39 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.7.1095170665.227.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
>> Not quite (a failure)... Pam had success generating a starter.
>> It was the 100% rye flour dough for the subsequent bread
>> that had proofing and sticky issues.
>
> Clearly rye success cannot be measured by the usual standards.
> She did report that the bread she made was finally consumed.
>
>> She was seeking advice on transferring the rye starter to a
>> wheat base.
>
> I didn't get that. She seemed to be asking if she should start
> over again. Otherwise she seemed confident about feeding her
> rye starter with whole wheat flour.
>
>> As it happens, I like to make 100% rye bread. It is perfect for Wisconsin's
>> winter months. And it is a real challenge to get it to rise. Employing the
>> dryer desem style inoculation to the dough makes it even more difficult. It
>> really requires an active sponge transition first.
>
> That is very courageous. Even SamaRtha is not attempting all-rye for loaves
> to be risen. Be sure to keep us informed of your progress.
>
> ---
> DickA

There is a small bakery here called Cress Spring Bakery. They are located in
Blue Mounds, WI and sell at the farmer's market in Madison. They have the
distinction of an Alan Scott brick oven. And their bread really reflects the
wood fired tradition. Their loaves are whole grain only and they offer a
100% rye bread. It is dense, to be sure, but an unbelievably excellent and
unique bread. I wanted to develop my own, so I started with a rye desem a la
Laurel Roberts and went to work.

It is not a picturesque bread, the crumb is dense, you couldn't drive nails
with it, but dense. It really likes a warm rise which I don't like. It is
sticky and needs lots of flour for handling which I don't like. The dough
has none of the properties we associate with successful bread. It is slack
which I don't like. In fact just about everything about making this bread I
don't like but... the flavor and aroma are wonderful. I think it is better
baked very slowly in a water bath the way pates are finished. Gives it a
better rise than radiant heat. It hurts to admit this technique as I gave
Kenneth a run around on steam heat 6 or 7 weeks ago. And... boiled bread is
not generally considered part of the SD repertoire.


Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 9/14/04 9:39 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.7.1095170665.227.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>
>> Not quite (a failure)... Pam had success generating a starter.
>> It was the 100% rye flour dough for the subsequent bread
>> that had proofing and sticky issues.
>
> Clearly rye success cannot be measured by the usual standards.
> She did report that the bread she made was finally consumed.
>
>> She was seeking advice on transferring the rye starter to a
>> wheat base.
>
> I didn't get that. She seemed to be asking if she should start
> over again. Otherwise she seemed confident about feeding her
> rye starter with whole wheat flour.
>
>> As it happens, I like to make 100% rye bread. It is perfect for Wisconsin's
>> winter months. And it is a real challenge to get it to rise. Employing the
>> dryer desem style inoculation to the dough makes it even more difficult. It
>> really requires an active sponge transition first.
>
> That is very courageous. Even SamaRtha is not attempting all-rye for loaves
> to be risen. Be sure to keep us informed of your progress.
>
> ---
> DickA

There is a small bakery here called Cress Spring Bakery. They are located in
Blue Mounds, WI and sell at the farmer's market in Madison. They have the
distinction of an Alan Scott brick oven. And their bread really reflects the
wood fired tradition. Their loaves are whole grain only and they offer a
100% rye bread. It is dense, to be sure, but an unbelievably excellent and
unique bread. I wanted to develop my own, so I started with a rye desem a la
Laurel Roberts and went to work.

It is not a picturesque bread, the crumb is dense, you couldn't drive nails
with it, but dense. It really likes a warm rise which I don't like. It is
sticky and needs lots of flour for handling which I don't like. The dough
has none of the properties we associate with successful bread. It is slack
which I don't like. In fact just about everything about making this bread I
don't like but... the flavor and aroma are wonderful. I think it is better
baked very slowly in a water bath the way pates are finished. Gives it a
better rise than radiant heat. It hurts to admit this technique as I gave
Kenneth a run around on steam heat 6 or 7 weeks ago. And... boiled bread is
not generally considered part of the SD repertoire.


Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

> > Not quite (a failure)... Pam had success generating a starter.
> > It was the 100% rye flour dough for the subsequent bread
> > that had proofing and sticky issues.
>
> Clearly rye success cannot be measured by the usual standards.
> She did report that the bread she made was finally consumed.
>
> > She was seeking advice on transferring the rye starter to a
> > wheat base.
>
> I didn't get that. She seemed to be asking if she should start
> over again. Otherwise she seemed confident about feeding her
> rye starter with whole wheat flour.
>
I believe the starter is an success. It would double in volume in 8
hours at 55 degrees. It did rise the rye, but the gluten was holey
and the bread settled down to a nice cake. It still tasted good,
especially if you are expecting 100% Rye, instead of hoping for wheat.
I will bake with wheat tomarrow. I have fed the starter twice with
WW.
I should admit here that I have a weak sense of smell, not a reliable
tool. I am carefull to check dates and ask someone else.
When I asked if I should start over, I meant, is Laurel's recipe so
good that to really realize the true magic of it should I start again
so it is pure.
I'm pretty confident that it will come through with the wheat four.
I'll let you know
Pam

> > Not quite (a failure)... Pam had success generating a starter.
> > It was the 100% rye flour dough for the subsequent bread
> > that had proofing and sticky issues.
>
> Clearly rye success cannot be measured by the usual standards.
> She did report that the bread she made was finally consumed.
>
> > She was seeking advice on transferring the rye starter to a
> > wheat base.
>
> I didn't get that. She seemed to be asking if she should start
> over again. Otherwise she seemed confident about feeding her
> rye starter with whole wheat flour.
>
I believe the starter is an success. It would double in volume in 8
hours at 55 degrees. It did rise the rye, but the gluten was holey
and the bread settled down to a nice cake. It still tasted good,
especially if you are expecting 100% Rye, instead of hoping for wheat.
I will bake with wheat tomarrow. I have fed the starter twice with
WW.
I should admit here that I have a weak sense of smell, not a reliable
tool. I am carefull to check dates and ask someone else.
When I asked if I should start over, I meant, is Laurel's recipe so
good that to really realize the true magic of it should I start again
so it is pure.
I'm pretty confident that it will come through with the wheat four.
I'll let you know
Pam

On 14 Sep 2004 16:03:57 -0700, (Pam Allen)
wrote:

>When I asked if I should start over, I meant, is Laurel's recipe so
>good that to really realize the true magic of it should I start again
>so it is pure.

Hi Pam,

I have not found any particular "magic" in her approach at all. But,
in any case, you should have little trouble switching over the rye
starter to wheat. Feed it through a few cycles, and you should be all
set.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 14 Sep 2004 16:03:57 -0700, (Pam Allen)
wrote:

>When I asked if I should start over, I meant, is Laurel's recipe so
>good that to really realize the true magic of it should I start again
>so it is pure.

Hi Pam,

I have not found any particular "magic" in her approach at all. But,
in any case, you should have little trouble switching over the rye
starter to wheat. Feed it through a few cycles, and you should be all
set.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

<snip>

>When I asked if I should start over, I meant, is Laurel's recipe so
> good that to really realize the true magic of it should I start again
> so it is pure.
> I'm pretty confident that it will come through with the wheat four.
> I'll let you know
> Pam

Laurel's recipe is good and I am sure you have captured the magic with rye.
The starter, as described, sounds like it is off to a great start so you
won't be futzing around with off flavors and spotty leavening performance.
All that is left is to secure a good source of wheat. That is not a slam
dunk. The grocery store is filled with old flour that could have benefited
from colder storage and better turnover. These are variables you can taste.
Good grain makes a hugh difference. Perhaps I am preaching to the choir
here, I hope so.

Good luck!

Will





____________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

<snip>

>When I asked if I should start over, I meant, is Laurel's recipe so
> good that to really realize the true magic of it should I start again
> so it is pure.
> I'm pretty confident that it will come through with the wheat four.
> I'll let you know
> Pam

Laurel's recipe is good and I am sure you have captured the magic with rye.
The starter, as described, sounds like it is off to a great start so you
won't be futzing around with off flavors and spotty leavening performance.
All that is left is to secure a good source of wheat. That is not a slam
dunk. The grocery store is filled with old flour that could have benefited
from colder storage and better turnover. These are variables you can taste.
Good grain makes a hugh difference. Perhaps I am preaching to the choir
here, I hope so.

Good luck!

Will





____________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

<snip>

>When I asked if I should start over, I meant, is Laurel's recipe so
> good that to really realize the true magic of it should I start again
> so it is pure.
> I'm pretty confident that it will come through with the wheat four.
> I'll let you know
> Pam

Laurel's recipe is good and I am sure you have captured the magic with rye.
The starter, as described, sounds like it is off to a great start so you
won't be futzing around with off flavors and spotty leavening performance.
All that is left is to secure a good source of wheat. That is not a slam
dunk. The grocery store is filled with old flour that could have benefited
from colder storage and better turnover. These are variables you can taste.
Good grain makes a hugh difference. Perhaps I am preaching to the choir
here, I hope so.

Good luck!

Will





____________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

I make a whole wheat bread using a standard (non-desem) extra firm
whole wheat starter. Will any whole wheat bread made with a firm
whole wheat starter taste like desem if given a long cool rise
followed by a short hot rise? Or there something magical about a
desem starter? I share Dick's feeling some of this may be song and
dance, but obviously there's something about the whole process which
produces good bread.


williamwaller > wrote in message news:<mailman.3.1095108986.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com>...
> <snip>>
>
> >I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical
> > to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is
> > buried in all that flour?
> >
> > Have fun whatever you try...
> >
> > All the best,
> >
>
> Kenneth,
>
> I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as
> wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I
> wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place.
>
> Like you, I don't think the desem ball "knows" it's buried in the flour but
> it is well insulated there and away from bothersome contamination as well.
>
> I have a hypothesis: the closer you keep to the grain's natural germination
> moisture level, the more likely it is you will stimulate the right LB
> complex. I figure the LB's are there to facilitate the initial starch to
> sugar conversion which powers the the sprouting process.
>
> Will

I make a whole wheat bread using a standard (non-desem) extra firm
whole wheat starter. Will any whole wheat bread made with a firm
whole wheat starter taste like desem if given a long cool rise
followed by a short hot rise? Or there something magical about a
desem starter? I share Dick's feeling some of this may be song and
dance, but obviously there's something about the whole process which
produces good bread.


williamwaller > wrote in message news:<mailman.3.1095108986.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com>...
> <snip>>
>
> >I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical
> > to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is
> > buried in all that flour?
> >
> > Have fun whatever you try...
> >
> > All the best,
> >
>
> Kenneth,
>
> I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as
> wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I
> wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place.
>
> Like you, I don't think the desem ball "knows" it's buried in the flour but
> it is well insulated there and away from bothersome contamination as well.
>
> I have a hypothesis: the closer you keep to the grain's natural germination
> moisture level, the more likely it is you will stimulate the right LB
> complex. I figure the LB's are there to facilitate the initial starch to
> sugar conversion which powers the the sprouting process.
>
> Will

I make a whole wheat bread using a standard (non-desem) extra firm
whole wheat starter. Will any whole wheat bread made with a firm
whole wheat starter taste like desem if given a long cool rise
followed by a short hot rise? Or there something magical about a
desem starter? I share Dick's feeling some of this may be song and
dance, but obviously there's something about the whole process which
produces good bread.


williamwaller > wrote in message news:<mailman.3.1095108986.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com>...
> <snip>>
>
> >I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical
> > to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is
> > buried in all that flour?
> >
> > Have fun whatever you try...
> >
> > All the best,
> >
>
> Kenneth,
>
> I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as
> wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I
> wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place.
>
> Like you, I don't think the desem ball "knows" it's buried in the flour but
> it is well insulated there and away from bothersome contamination as well.
>
> I have a hypothesis: the closer you keep to the grain's natural germination
> moisture level, the more likely it is you will stimulate the right LB
> complex. I figure the LB's are there to facilitate the initial starch to
> sugar conversion which powers the the sprouting process.
>
> Will