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| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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I don't think there is anything magical a desem starter. You should look up
a copy of "The Bread Builders" by Alan Scott and Daniel Wing. It seems Scott is the fountainhead of desem technique. Apparently he built Laurel Robertson's bread oven too. The process described for dough making there uses a stiff starter like you describe, not the 100% hydration style often mentioned at RFS. There is a good discussion about the merits of dryer vs. wetter storage and maintenance too. I think that book would be the best place to find the answer to your question. I personally believe that your proposed technique gets you there. Will On 9/15/04 2:00 PM, "Jonathan Kandell" > wrote: > I make a whole wheat bread using a standard (non-desem) extra firm > whole wheat starter. Will any whole wheat bread made with a firm > whole wheat starter taste like desem if given a long cool rise > followed by a short hot rise? Or there something magical about a > desem starter? I share Dick's feeling some of this may be song and > dance, but obviously there's something about the whole process which > produces good bread. > > > williamwaller > wrote in message > news:<mailman.3.1095108986.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com>... >> <snip>> >> >>> I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical >>> to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is >>> buried in all that flour? >>> >>> Have fun whatever you try... >>> >>> All the best, >>> >> >> Kenneth, >> >> I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as >> wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I >> wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place. >> >> Like you, I don't think the desem ball "knows" it's buried in the flour but >> it is well insulated there and away from bothersome contamination as well. >> >> I have a hypothesis: the closer you keep to the grain's natural germination >> moisture level, the more likely it is you will stimulate the right LB >> complex. I figure the LB's are there to facilitate the initial starch to >> sugar conversion which powers the the sprouting process. >> >> Will > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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I don't think there is anything magical a desem starter. You should look up
a copy of "The Bread Builders" by Alan Scott and Daniel Wing. It seems Scott is the fountainhead of desem technique. Apparently he built Laurel Robertson's bread oven too. The process described for dough making there uses a stiff starter like you describe, not the 100% hydration style often mentioned at RFS. There is a good discussion about the merits of dryer vs. wetter storage and maintenance too. I think that book would be the best place to find the answer to your question. I personally believe that your proposed technique gets you there. Will On 9/15/04 2:00 PM, "Jonathan Kandell" > wrote: > I make a whole wheat bread using a standard (non-desem) extra firm > whole wheat starter. Will any whole wheat bread made with a firm > whole wheat starter taste like desem if given a long cool rise > followed by a short hot rise? Or there something magical about a > desem starter? I share Dick's feeling some of this may be song and > dance, but obviously there's something about the whole process which > produces good bread. > > > williamwaller > wrote in message > news:<mailman.3.1095108986.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com>... >> <snip>> >> >>> I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical >>> to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is >>> buried in all that flour? >>> >>> Have fun whatever you try... >>> >>> All the best, >>> >> >> Kenneth, >> >> I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as >> wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I >> wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place. >> >> Like you, I don't think the desem ball "knows" it's buried in the flour but >> it is well insulated there and away from bothersome contamination as well. >> >> I have a hypothesis: the closer you keep to the grain's natural germination >> moisture level, the more likely it is you will stimulate the right LB >> complex. I figure the LB's are there to facilitate the initial starch to >> sugar conversion which powers the the sprouting process. >> >> Will > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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I don't think there is anything magical a desem starter. You should look up
a copy of "The Bread Builders" by Alan Scott and Daniel Wing. It seems Scott is the fountainhead of desem technique. Apparently he built Laurel Robertson's bread oven too. The process described for dough making there uses a stiff starter like you describe, not the 100% hydration style often mentioned at RFS. There is a good discussion about the merits of dryer vs. wetter storage and maintenance too. I think that book would be the best place to find the answer to your question. I personally believe that your proposed technique gets you there. Will On 9/15/04 2:00 PM, "Jonathan Kandell" > wrote: > I make a whole wheat bread using a standard (non-desem) extra firm > whole wheat starter. Will any whole wheat bread made with a firm > whole wheat starter taste like desem if given a long cool rise > followed by a short hot rise? Or there something magical about a > desem starter? I share Dick's feeling some of this may be song and > dance, but obviously there's something about the whole process which > produces good bread. > > > williamwaller > wrote in message > news:<mailman.3.1095108986.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com>... >> <snip>> >> >>> I will also mention that much of Laurel's method seems a bit magical >>> to me. For example, how would the ball of dough "know" that it is >>> buried in all that flour? >>> >>> Have fun whatever you try... >>> >>> All the best, >>> >> >> Kenneth, >> >> I used Laurel's desem method with rye a while back. It worked the same as >> wheat except a little faster. Made a good starter to boot. Actually... I >> wondered why Laurel didn't start with rye in the first place. >> >> Like you, I don't think the desem ball "knows" it's buried in the flour but >> it is well insulated there and away from bothersome contamination as well. >> >> I have a hypothesis: the closer you keep to the grain's natural germination >> moisture level, the more likely it is you will stimulate the right LB >> complex. I figure the LB's are there to facilitate the initial starch to >> sugar conversion which powers the the sprouting process. >> >> Will > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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"Jonathan Kandell" > wrote in message = om... > ... obviously there's something about the whole process which > produces good bread. Obviously, with a little luck, the desem process can convey an adequate=20 combination of wild yeast and lactobacteria to dough, notwithstanding that its rationale dates back to the "spontaneous generation" theory, which predates, for instance, the historic contributions of Tony van=20 Leeuwenhoek and Louie Pasteur. |
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"Jonathan Kandell" > wrote in message = om... > ... obviously there's something about the whole process which > produces good bread. Obviously, with a little luck, the desem process can convey an adequate=20 combination of wild yeast and lactobacteria to dough, notwithstanding that its rationale dates back to the "spontaneous generation" theory, which predates, for instance, the historic contributions of Tony van=20 Leeuwenhoek and Louie Pasteur. |
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On 9/16/04 7:42 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> > "Jonathan Kandell" > wrote in message > om... > >> ... obviously there's something about the whole process which >> produces good bread. > > Obviously, with a little luck, the desem process can convey an adequate > combination of wild yeast and lactobacteria to dough, notwithstanding > that its rationale dates back to the "spontaneous generation" theory, > which predates, for instance, the historic contributions of Tony van > Leeuwenhoek and Louie Pasteur. Dick: Are you re-branding from "sourdough minimalist" to "sourdough historian"? Will > > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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"williamwaller" > wrote in message = news:mailman.11.1095341143.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com... > Are you re-branding from "sourdough minimalist" to "sourdough = historian"? Minimalism in not inconsistent with historical awareness. History is = not necessarily bulky. Rendered digitally, it is, in fact, massless. |
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"williamwaller" > wrote in message = news:mailman.11.1095341143.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com... > Are you re-branding from "sourdough minimalist" to "sourdough = historian"? Minimalism in not inconsistent with historical awareness. History is = not necessarily bulky. Rendered digitally, it is, in fact, massless. |
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Jonathan Kandell wrote: > > I've read real > desem is not sour at all, so perhaps mine is not really similar--I'm > dying to know. In other words, will any ww bread taste the same if > given a long cool rise followed by a short hot rise? Or there > something magical about a desem starter? > The short answers are : No and no. There is nothing magical about Deseem starter. Nothing, that is, beyond the magic present in any starter. You can take any ordinary starter and propagate it for a time as a firm starter under cool conditions, under 70F, and it will most likely take on the character of a Deseem starter. With bad luck or higher temperatures, you can also end up with a starter that is so sour and vile that your dog may not eat it. I have done both. If you start with an active starter, the flour and the process will have the most influence on the outcome of your bread. regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Dick Adams wrote:
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message news:mailman.11.1095341143.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com... > > > Are you re-branding from "sourdough minimalist" to "sourdough historian"? > > Minimalism in not inconsistent with historical awareness. History is not necessarily > bulky. Rendered digitally, it is, in fact, massless. But *is* information truly massless? Does a degaussed hard drive mass precisely the same as one full of data? Does a drive full of '1' bits mass precisely the same as one filled with a Gaussian random distribution of 1s and 0s? Dave |
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004, Dick Adams wrote:
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message news:mailman.11.1095341143.227.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com... > > > Are you re-branding from "sourdough minimalist" to "sourdough historian"? > > Minimalism in not inconsistent with historical awareness. History is not necessarily > bulky. Rendered digitally, it is, in fact, massless. But *is* information truly massless? Does a degaussed hard drive mass precisely the same as one full of data? Does a drive full of '1' bits mass precisely the same as one filled with a Gaussian random distribution of 1s and 0s? Dave |
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"Dick Adams" > wrote in message >...
> but did you know that some of the personnages who have, > from time to time, appeared here at r.f.s. are operating as gurus over > there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/, mostly reselling > http://samartha.net/SD/ and the likes of Peter Reinhart. For one thing, > everybody is nice over there, and there is no spooky talk about things > like kitchen faeries. Hi Dick, Say, without irony or ill-feeling, I wanted to thank you for this bit of advertising. Past few days have seen quite a little membership and activity boom at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/ and you deserve the credit! As to the quality of our "guru"-ship there, I think you may have a point. But we have to take what we can get. It breaks my heart to see people post questions and not get answers. As to "reselling" either Samartha Deva or Peter Reinhart, I for one think these are wonderful bakers and want to see that people are helped by their ideas and that they get the credit they deserve. No one (that I know of?) is selling anything. For my part I like lacey sourdough, I've been baking something like it for a couple of years. I think your ideas on starter handling are useful, admire your work for the Carl's Friends group, and wish you well! --Lisse |
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"Dick Adams" > wrote in message >...
> but did you know that some of the personnages who have, > from time to time, appeared here at r.f.s. are operating as gurus over > there at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/, mostly reselling > http://samartha.net/SD/ and the likes of Peter Reinhart. For one thing, > everybody is nice over there, and there is no spooky talk about things > like kitchen faeries. Hi Dick, Say, without irony or ill-feeling, I wanted to thank you for this bit of advertising. Past few days have seen quite a little membership and activity boom at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/ and you deserve the credit! As to the quality of our "guru"-ship there, I think you may have a point. But we have to take what we can get. It breaks my heart to see people post questions and not get answers. As to "reselling" either Samartha Deva or Peter Reinhart, I for one think these are wonderful bakers and want to see that people are helped by their ideas and that they get the credit they deserve. No one (that I know of?) is selling anything. For my part I like lacey sourdough, I've been baking something like it for a couple of years. I think your ideas on starter handling are useful, admire your work for the Carl's Friends group, and wish you well! --Lisse |
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"Lisse Tuerie" > wrote in message = om... > Past few days have seen quite a little membership and > activity boom at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/ and you > (DickA) deserve the credit! Maybe some. > As to the quality of our "guru"-ship there, I think you may have a > point.=20 What point? I made no judgement. Well, maybe you think that "operating as gurus" is insidious? > It breaks my heart to see people post questions and not=20 > get answers. It depends on the questions. Sometimes it seems that they are simply trying to find out how far they can dumb down before nobody will talk to them. > As to "reselling" ... No one (that I know of?) is selling anything. How about "repackaging" then? > For my part I like lacey sourdough, I've been baking something like it > for a couple of years. Maybe you have in mind to compare with something I posted at the Yahoo bread picture group last year. Well, recently I have posted some better pictures, which are easier to get to, at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/billowy.html > I think your ideas on starter handling are useful, ... Does that mean that I am not all bad? > admire your work for the Carl's Friends group, Not much work, except sending up some pictures every now and then. The real work is done by the little folk. > and wish you well! Oops, I guess that means that you are going back to = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/ ??? --- DickA |
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I read Wing's book, and Alan Scott's process you describe _does_ use a
special desem starter and a cool long first rise followed by a short 1.5 hr hot proof, as Laurel describes. I was wondering if anyone had explored what exactly it was that created the desem flavor people rave about: is it the (1) starter stiffness, (2) the long cool then short hot fermenting order, and/or (3) the desem starter (originally created in flour at very cool temperature) itself. I don't really have the conditions to do a cold rise (it don't get cold in Tucson ;-)), and even find it a pain to do a 90 deg hot rise. Hence my questions.... Jonathan williamwaller > wrote in message news:<mailman.10.1095276797.227.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com>... > I don't think there is anything magical a desem starter. You should look up > a copy of "The Bread Builders" by Alan Scott and Daniel Wing. It seems Scott > is the fountainhead of desem technique. Apparently he built Laurel > Robertson's bread oven too. The process described for dough making there > uses a stiff starter like you describe, not the 100% hydration style often > mentioned at RFS. There is a good discussion about the merits of dryer vs. > wetter storage and maintenance too. I think that book would be the best > place to find the answer to your question. I personally believe that your > proposed technique gets you there. |
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I read Wing's book, and Alan Scott's process you describe _does_ use a
special desem starter and a cool long first rise followed by a short 1.5 hr hot proof, as Laurel describes. I was wondering if anyone had explored what exactly it was that created the desem flavor people rave about: is it the (1) starter stiffness, (2) the long cool then short hot fermenting order, and/or (3) the desem starter (originally created in flour at very cool temperature) itself. I don't really have the conditions to do a cold rise (it don't get cold in Tucson ;-)), and even find it a pain to do a 90 deg hot rise. Hence my questions.... Jonathan williamwaller > wrote in message news:<mailman.10.1095276797.227.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com>... > I don't think there is anything magical a desem starter. You should look up > a copy of "The Bread Builders" by Alan Scott and Daniel Wing. It seems Scott > is the fountainhead of desem technique. Apparently he built Laurel > Robertson's bread oven too. The process described for dough making there > uses a stiff starter like you describe, not the 100% hydration style often > mentioned at RFS. There is a good discussion about the merits of dryer vs. > wetter storage and maintenance too. I think that book would be the best > place to find the answer to your question. I personally believe that your > proposed technique gets you there. |
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I think it's two things...
The long cool rise increases enzymatic activity that releases more starches for the fermentation process. Peter Reinhart in "The Bread Baker's Apprentice" covers this.. The use of stiffer starter crosses the line into "old dough". There were a number of posts on this topic about two weeks ago. I am not convinced the desem starter itself imparts "special" quality to the bread (and it is my preferred way to generate a new starter). I think aging the dough and pushing the final proof are the reasons. If you review the literature, I think you'll find that aging dough is a relatively new practice. Not new to the old time SD folks and experienced bakers, but new to the hobby baking world. The Desem tradition always advocated longer primary ferments and has become identified with the subtle flavors longer fermentings impart. Will On 9/17/04 10:55 AM, "Jonathan Kandell" > wrote: > I read Wing's book, and Alan Scott's process you describe _does_ use a > special desem starter and a cool long first rise followed by a short > 1.5 hr hot proof, as Laurel describes. I was wondering if anyone had > explored what exactly it was that created the desem flavor people rave > about: is it the (1) starter stiffness, (2) the long cool then short > hot fermenting order, and/or (3) the desem starter (originally created > in flour at very cool temperature) itself. > > I don't really have the conditions to do a cold rise (it don't get > cold in Tucson ;-)), and even find it a pain to do a 90 deg hot rise. > Hence my questions.... > > Jonathan > > williamwaller > wrote in message > news:<mailman.10.1095276797.227.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com>... >> I don't think there is anything magical a desem starter. You should look up >> a copy of "The Bread Builders" by Alan Scott and Daniel Wing. It seems Scott >> is the fountainhead of desem technique. Apparently he built Laurel >> Robertson's bread oven too. The process described for dough making there >> uses a stiff starter like you describe, not the 100% hydration style often >> mentioned at RFS. There is a good discussion about the merits of dryer vs. >> wetter storage and maintenance too. I think that book would be the best >> place to find the answer to your question. I personally believe that your >> proposed technique gets you there. > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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I think it's two things...
The long cool rise increases enzymatic activity that releases more starches for the fermentation process. Peter Reinhart in "The Bread Baker's Apprentice" covers this.. The use of stiffer starter crosses the line into "old dough". There were a number of posts on this topic about two weeks ago. I am not convinced the desem starter itself imparts "special" quality to the bread (and it is my preferred way to generate a new starter). I think aging the dough and pushing the final proof are the reasons. If you review the literature, I think you'll find that aging dough is a relatively new practice. Not new to the old time SD folks and experienced bakers, but new to the hobby baking world. The Desem tradition always advocated longer primary ferments and has become identified with the subtle flavors longer fermentings impart. Will On 9/17/04 10:55 AM, "Jonathan Kandell" > wrote: > I read Wing's book, and Alan Scott's process you describe _does_ use a > special desem starter and a cool long first rise followed by a short > 1.5 hr hot proof, as Laurel describes. I was wondering if anyone had > explored what exactly it was that created the desem flavor people rave > about: is it the (1) starter stiffness, (2) the long cool then short > hot fermenting order, and/or (3) the desem starter (originally created > in flour at very cool temperature) itself. > > I don't really have the conditions to do a cold rise (it don't get > cold in Tucson ;-)), and even find it a pain to do a 90 deg hot rise. > Hence my questions.... > > Jonathan > > williamwaller > wrote in message > news:<mailman.10.1095276797.227.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com>... >> I don't think there is anything magical a desem starter. You should look up >> a copy of "The Bread Builders" by Alan Scott and Daniel Wing. It seems Scott >> is the fountainhead of desem technique. Apparently he built Laurel >> Robertson's bread oven too. The process described for dough making there >> uses a stiff starter like you describe, not the 100% hydration style often >> mentioned at RFS. There is a good discussion about the merits of dryer vs. >> wetter storage and maintenance too. I think that book would be the best >> place to find the answer to your question. I personally believe that your >> proposed technique gets you there. > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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Jonathan Kandell wrote: > > > I don't really have the conditions to do a cold rise (it don't get > cold in Tucson ;-)), and even find it a pain to do a 90 deg hot rise. > Sure you can do a cool rise. Try a picnic cooler and enough of those little frozen bags of jel to keep it as cool as you wish. If you wish to bake with a firm, mild starter, you do not have to begin with a sack of grain. If you find a hot rise a PIA, how are you going to deal with the suggestions to use a brick, wood fired oven? regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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Jonathan Kandell wrote: > > > I don't really have the conditions to do a cold rise (it don't get > cold in Tucson ;-)), and even find it a pain to do a 90 deg hot rise. > Sure you can do a cool rise. Try a picnic cooler and enough of those little frozen bags of jel to keep it as cool as you wish. If you wish to bake with a firm, mild starter, you do not have to begin with a sack of grain. If you find a hot rise a PIA, how are you going to deal with the suggestions to use a brick, wood fired oven? regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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williamwaller wrote: > > I think it's two things... > > ...The long cool rise increases enzymatic activity that releases more starches > for the fermentation process... More likely increased availbility of sugars. You can prove it in your own kitchen. Just take some whole corn grits and soak them in water overnight and see how much sweeter they taste in the morning. Works with wheat too, but you are more likely to have whole corm meal than wheat grits and corn tastes better. If you really want to see how sweet they can get, add a little diastalic malt to the slurry. Having the flour wet for a longer period of time likely assures a greater hydration of the starches. > > The use of stiffer starter crosses the line into "old dough". There were a > number of posts on this topic about two weeks ago. You are exactly right when you mean old dough held back as a "chef" to start a new batch of dough. I am less confused by the terminology when there is enough context provided to distinguish that from the process of adding old dough as a dough improver with only a slight contribution to rising the loaf. Book authors are often guilty of confusing their readers in this area. One of the best ways to get a Deseem like starter is to merely hold back a lump of dough after the final mixing and add a little more flour to it and there you are. If you want to wrap it in a kerchief and store it in the middle of a can of flour in your cool basement, be my guest. It will do just as well in Saran wrap in the refrigerator. > > I am not convinced the desem starter itself imparts "special" quality to the > bread (and it is my preferred way to generate a new starter). I think aging > the dough and pushing the final proof are the reasons. > I think that one has to be careful "pushing the proof" because it is very easy to get off flavors when dough is fermented at too high a temperature. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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williamwaller wrote: > > I think it's two things... > > ...The long cool rise increases enzymatic activity that releases more starches > for the fermentation process... More likely increased availbility of sugars. You can prove it in your own kitchen. Just take some whole corn grits and soak them in water overnight and see how much sweeter they taste in the morning. Works with wheat too, but you are more likely to have whole corm meal than wheat grits and corn tastes better. If you really want to see how sweet they can get, add a little diastalic malt to the slurry. Having the flour wet for a longer period of time likely assures a greater hydration of the starches. > > The use of stiffer starter crosses the line into "old dough". There were a > number of posts on this topic about two weeks ago. You are exactly right when you mean old dough held back as a "chef" to start a new batch of dough. I am less confused by the terminology when there is enough context provided to distinguish that from the process of adding old dough as a dough improver with only a slight contribution to rising the loaf. Book authors are often guilty of confusing their readers in this area. One of the best ways to get a Deseem like starter is to merely hold back a lump of dough after the final mixing and add a little more flour to it and there you are. If you want to wrap it in a kerchief and store it in the middle of a can of flour in your cool basement, be my guest. It will do just as well in Saran wrap in the refrigerator. > > I am not convinced the desem starter itself imparts "special" quality to the > bread (and it is my preferred way to generate a new starter). I think aging > the dough and pushing the final proof are the reasons. > I think that one has to be careful "pushing the proof" because it is very easy to get off flavors when dough is fermented at too high a temperature. Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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think it's two things...
> > The long cool rise increases enzymatic activity that releases more starches > for the fermentation process. Peter Reinhart in "The Bread Baker's > Apprentice" covers this.. > > The use of stiffer starter crosses the line into "old dough". There were a > number of posts on this topic about two weeks ago. > > I am not convinced the desem starter itself imparts "special" quality to the > bread (and it is my preferred way to generate a new starter). I think aging > the dough and pushing the final proof are the reasons. > > If you review the literature, I think you'll find that aging dough is a > relatively new practice. Not new to the old time SD folks and experienced > bakers, but new to the hobby baking world. The Desem tradition always > advocated longer primary ferments and has become identified with the subtle > flavors longer fermentings impart. > > Will I have succeeded! The bread rose well, triple I think. It was as light as a comercial bread but tastier, of course. The kids (6 and 2) even loved it. I took a loaf to a pot luck and despite there being 3 others, it went. I increased the water to 2 cups for 4 cups of flour. I appoligize for not having the math down to report hydration, I'll figure that out this week. I might have under baked it a bit. It had the consistancy of wonderbread. Except for the crust, you could have rolled the slice up into a little ball. Here, in Santa Fe, the temp is 50 at night and 80 for a high. With a cylinder beverage cooler with 2 gal of water, I am able to keep between 55 and 65 degrees. For the hot rise I used a chest cooler in the tub and half filled it with hot water at 100 degrees. I bought a wire shelf to keep the loaves above and closed the lid. The first rise looked good after 2 hours but I pushed it to 3. The proof took 2 hours and could have gone a little longer. I was impatient. All is well. The taste is not very sour, but not bland at all. I believe that is the point of the cool ferment. Now I will experiment with a hearth loaf. it's been fun Pam |
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think it's two things...
> > The long cool rise increases enzymatic activity that releases more starches > for the fermentation process. Peter Reinhart in "The Bread Baker's > Apprentice" covers this.. > > The use of stiffer starter crosses the line into "old dough". There were a > number of posts on this topic about two weeks ago. > > I am not convinced the desem starter itself imparts "special" quality to the > bread (and it is my preferred way to generate a new starter). I think aging > the dough and pushing the final proof are the reasons. > > If you review the literature, I think you'll find that aging dough is a > relatively new practice. Not new to the old time SD folks and experienced > bakers, but new to the hobby baking world. The Desem tradition always > advocated longer primary ferments and has become identified with the subtle > flavors longer fermentings impart. > > Will I have succeeded! The bread rose well, triple I think. It was as light as a comercial bread but tastier, of course. The kids (6 and 2) even loved it. I took a loaf to a pot luck and despite there being 3 others, it went. I increased the water to 2 cups for 4 cups of flour. I appoligize for not having the math down to report hydration, I'll figure that out this week. I might have under baked it a bit. It had the consistancy of wonderbread. Except for the crust, you could have rolled the slice up into a little ball. Here, in Santa Fe, the temp is 50 at night and 80 for a high. With a cylinder beverage cooler with 2 gal of water, I am able to keep between 55 and 65 degrees. For the hot rise I used a chest cooler in the tub and half filled it with hot water at 100 degrees. I bought a wire shelf to keep the loaves above and closed the lid. The first rise looked good after 2 hours but I pushed it to 3. The proof took 2 hours and could have gone a little longer. I was impatient. All is well. The taste is not very sour, but not bland at all. I believe that is the point of the cool ferment. Now I will experiment with a hearth loaf. it's been fun Pam |
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On 9/17/04 8:57 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:
> > > williamwaller wrote: >> >> I think it's two things... >> >> ...The long cool rise increases enzymatic activity that releases more >> starches for the fermentation process... > > More likely increased availbility of sugars. Well yes... the sugars were starches before the enzymes got to them. They were released (as sugars) for the fermentation process. > One of the best ways to get a Deseem like starter is to merely > hold back a lump of dough after the final mixing and add a little > more flour to it and there you are. If you want to wrap it in a > kerchief and store it in the middle of a can of flour in your > cool basement, be my guest. It will do just as well in Saran > wrap in the refrigerator. You could do those things. They would work. Why not employ the traditional method? Burying a small piece of fresh, stiff dough is not so onerous. Plus, it allows you to evaluate the quality of your grain supply. Flour milled at too high a temperature, grain treated to suppress molds and bacteria, old dry flour, etc... does not easily build a desem starter. It is useful to know that your grain has the vitality to generate it's own starter. It is not easy to build a desem from flour bought at the grocery store. I suspect that's why we see the posts calling it difficult, implying it's esoteric and so forth. Another interpretation is that the flour we've used is NOT VERY GOOD. >> I am not convinced the desem starter itself imparts "special" quality to the >> bread (and it is my preferred way to generate a new starter). I think aging >> the dough and pushing the final proof are the reasons. >> > I think that one has to be careful "pushing the proof" because it > is very easy to get off flavors when dough is fermented at too > high a temperature. By "pushing" I simply mean proofing above ambient room temperature, not heat of a heroic nature <g>. > Regards, > > Charles > |
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On 9/17/04 8:57 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:
> > > williamwaller wrote: >> >> I think it's two things... >> >> ...The long cool rise increases enzymatic activity that releases more >> starches for the fermentation process... > > More likely increased availbility of sugars. Well yes... the sugars were starches before the enzymes got to them. They were released (as sugars) for the fermentation process. > One of the best ways to get a Deseem like starter is to merely > hold back a lump of dough after the final mixing and add a little > more flour to it and there you are. If you want to wrap it in a > kerchief and store it in the middle of a can of flour in your > cool basement, be my guest. It will do just as well in Saran > wrap in the refrigerator. You could do those things. They would work. Why not employ the traditional method? Burying a small piece of fresh, stiff dough is not so onerous. Plus, it allows you to evaluate the quality of your grain supply. Flour milled at too high a temperature, grain treated to suppress molds and bacteria, old dry flour, etc... does not easily build a desem starter. It is useful to know that your grain has the vitality to generate it's own starter. It is not easy to build a desem from flour bought at the grocery store. I suspect that's why we see the posts calling it difficult, implying it's esoteric and so forth. Another interpretation is that the flour we've used is NOT VERY GOOD. >> I am not convinced the desem starter itself imparts "special" quality to the >> bread (and it is my preferred way to generate a new starter). I think aging >> the dough and pushing the final proof are the reasons. >> > I think that one has to be careful "pushing the proof" because it > is very easy to get off flavors when dough is fermented at too > high a temperature. By "pushing" I simply mean proofing above ambient room temperature, not heat of a heroic nature <g>. > Regards, > > Charles > |
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On 9/17/04 8:57 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:
> > > williamwaller wrote: >> >> I think it's two things... >> >> ...The long cool rise increases enzymatic activity that releases more >> starches for the fermentation process... > > More likely increased availbility of sugars. Well yes... the sugars were starches before the enzymes got to them. They were released (as sugars) for the fermentation process. > One of the best ways to get a Deseem like starter is to merely > hold back a lump of dough after the final mixing and add a little > more flour to it and there you are. If you want to wrap it in a > kerchief and store it in the middle of a can of flour in your > cool basement, be my guest. It will do just as well in Saran > wrap in the refrigerator. You could do those things. They would work. Why not employ the traditional method? Burying a small piece of fresh, stiff dough is not so onerous. Plus, it allows you to evaluate the quality of your grain supply. Flour milled at too high a temperature, grain treated to suppress molds and bacteria, old dry flour, etc... does not easily build a desem starter. It is useful to know that your grain has the vitality to generate it's own starter. It is not easy to build a desem from flour bought at the grocery store. I suspect that's why we see the posts calling it difficult, implying it's esoteric and so forth. Another interpretation is that the flour we've used is NOT VERY GOOD. >> I am not convinced the desem starter itself imparts "special" quality to the >> bread (and it is my preferred way to generate a new starter). I think aging >> the dough and pushing the final proof are the reasons. >> > I think that one has to be careful "pushing the proof" because it > is very easy to get off flavors when dough is fermented at too > high a temperature. By "pushing" I simply mean proofing above ambient room temperature, not heat of a heroic nature <g>. > Regards, > > Charles > |
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