This is an attempt to pour oil on troubled waters; I hope it succeeds.

Debates on the merits of the 3-Stage Detmold process surface periodically
on the NG.

The following facts may not be clear to all the contributors to these
threads:

- Detmolder is an engineering company (located in Detmold, Germany!) that
makes machinery for (small/medium scale?) commercial bakers;

- on its web-site, Detmolder publishes bread-baking recipes with the
following features:

- the recipes display the special capabilities of its machinery;

- the described routines are easily accomplished with that machinery;
the routines would not be commercially viable (for bakeries that
do not operate for 24 h/day) without it;

- the baked breads can achieve a quality that will make purchasers
come back for more (I am guessing here; but it is part of the sales
pitch to sell the machines).

The postings to this NG, that discuss the merits of one of these Detmold
routines, do not mention the quantities of dough that are being processed.
Control of dough viscosity is crucial when asking the machinery to cope
with 30-60 lb of dough; to the home-baker, this may be less important than
having to get up at 1 a.m. (or go to bed late!) for the next stage of the
3-Stage process.

Felix Karpfen



--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On 12 Dec 2007 20:16:41 GMT, Felix Karpfen
> wrote:

>This is an attempt to pour oil on troubled waters; I hope it succeeds.

Hi Felix,

We'll know soon enough, but before that...

Are you a betting man? <g>

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Felix Karpfen wrote:
> This is an attempt to pour oil on troubled waters; I hope it succeeds.
>
> Debates on the merits of the 3-Stage Detmold process surface periodically
> on the NG.
>
> The following facts may not be clear to all the contributors to these
> threads:
>
> - Detmolder is an engineering company (located in Detmold, Germany!) that
> makes machinery for (small/medium scale?) commercial bakers;
>
> - on its web-site, Detmolder publishes bread-baking recipes with the
> following features:
>
> - the recipes display the special capabilities of its machinery;
>
> - the described routines are easily accomplished with that machinery;
> the routines would not be commercially viable (for bakeries that
> do not operate for 24 h/day) without it;
>
> - the baked breads can achieve a quality that will make purchasers
> come back for more (I am guessing here; but it is part of the sales
> pitch to sell the machines).
>
> The postings to this NG, that discuss the merits of one of these Detmold
> routines, do not mention the quantities of dough that are being processed.
> Control of dough viscosity is crucial when asking the machinery to cope
> with 30-60 lb of dough; to the home-baker, this may be less important than
> having to get up at 1 a.m. (or go to bed late!) for the next stage of the
> 3-Stage process.
>
> Felix Karpfen
>
>
>

Thanks for the info. I would guess that method is the reasoning behind
the poster's controlled environment setup to duplicate the machine
environment?

The three stage grow is also part of several cookbook recipes I have
come across, including 'The Joy of Cooking' and works really well,
controlled environment or not.

Mike

Felix Karpfen wrote:
> This is an attempt to pour oil on troubled waters; I hope it succeeds.
>
> Debates on the merits of the 3-Stage Detmold process surface periodically
> on the NG.
>
> The following facts may not be clear to all the contributors to these
> threads:
>
> - Detmolder is an engineering company (located in Detmold, Germany!) that
> makes machinery for (small/medium scale?) commercial bakers;
>
> - on its web-site, Detmolder publishes bread-baking recipes with the
> following features:
>
> - the recipes display the special capabilities of its machinery;
>
> - the described routines are easily accomplished with that machinery;
> the routines would not be commercially viable (for bakeries that
> do not operate for 24 h/day) without it;
>
> - the baked breads can achieve a quality that will make purchasers
> come back for more (I am guessing here; but it is part of the sales
> pitch to sell the machines).
>
> The postings to this NG, that discuss the merits of one of these Detmold
> routines, do not mention the quantities of dough that are being processed.
> Control of dough viscosity is crucial when asking the machinery to cope
> with 30-60 lb of dough; to the home-baker, this may be less important than
> having to get up at 1 a.m. (or go to bed late!) for the next stage of the
> 3-Stage process.
>
> Felix Karpfen
>
>
>
>
Uumpf!

The Detmold 2/3- and what else have you sourdough growing processes have
been developed by:

BAGKF: Bundesanstalt für Getreide-, Kartoffel- und Fettforschung, Detmold

Which was a German Federal research institution about well, grain,
potatoes and fat.

Apparently, they got reorganized under an umbrella of:

Bundesforschungsanstalt für Ernährung und Lebensmittel (federal research
institute for nutrition and food)
(http://www.bfel.de)

All kinds of sourdough growing procedures are around, 1/2/3-whatever and
different strategies to accommodate timings to human work schedules.

Sourdough- and baking machine vendors publish their recipes on web sites
or promotional material so sell their products.

The calculator on my web site:

http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SD-Dtm-3-03.cgi

is based on the publication given on the bottom of that web page as
reference. As far as I know, the procedure described and used has
nothing to do with any vendor selling equipment or products.

Usually, in literature, sourdough procedures are given to result in a
final dough amount of 168 kg. To obtain a particular amount one would
multiply the quantities in a basic recipe to fit the desired end result.

The responsibility how to apply the formulas to a given set of machinery
and needs lays with the baker/machinist using it.

To bring the name "Detmolder" in sourdough growing context into
connection with a company named Detmold is IMO misleading.

It's the BAGKF in Detmold which did it, not somebody trying to hitch a
publicity ride on the name.

More oil....

Sam

Felix Karpfen wrote:


> - on its web-site, Detmolder publishes bread-baking recipes with the
> following features:
>
> Felix Karpfen
>
>
>
Be nice of you post the web_address


Joe Umstead

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:21:53 -0700, Sam wrote:

> Felix Karpfen wrote:

>>
>> - Detmolder is an engineering company (located in Detmold, Germany!) that
>> makes machinery for (small/medium scale?) commercial bakers;
>
>>
> Uumpf!
>
> The Detmold 2/3- and what else have you sourdough growing processes have
> been developed by:
>
> BAGKF: Bundesanstalt für Getreide-, Kartoffel- und Fettforschung, Detmold
>
> Which was a German Federal research institution about well, grain,
> potatoes and fat.

I stand corrected.

There are limitations to Google searches undertaken from Australia.

I will look what Google has to say about BAGKF - but "grain, potato and
fat" covers a lot of territory for one research organisation. Especially
as post-graduate qualifications in Physics, Chemistry and Micro-Biology
are very desirable for Bread-Baking research.

>
> Usually, in literature, sourdough procedures are given to result in a
> final dough amount of _168 kg_
>
Even if I failed to find the source that inspired the machinery
developed by Detmolder, I consider my basic comment still valid.

Using machinery that operates 24 hours/day and handles up to 168kg of
dough imposes one set of constraints; trying to get a good night's
sleep while making a single loaf of sourdough bread imposes different
constraints.

While optimum results are achieved when the micro-organism activity is
at its peak before starting the next stage of the process, I have found
the process to be very forgiving in sub-optimal situations.

In plain English, I can make very edible sourdough rye bread and still
get a good night's sleep. And by taste-buds are too coarse to detect
the finer nuances that the fluctuations in the many dozens of chemicals
(produced during the baking process) contribute to the taste of the
final loaf of bread.

> More oil....

Alas, none is left.

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:
> [..]
>> Usually, in literature, sourdough procedures are given to result in a
>> final dough amount of _168 kg_
>>
>>
> Even if I failed to find the source that inspired the machinery
> developed by Detmolder, I consider my basic comment still valid.
>
Sure - my drive was only to get the source straight and with search
engines, a current company has more web presence than a research
department, now reorganized, publishing a couple of decades ago.

Most of the more relevant hits I got when looking for that "Detmold
3-Stage" were for research publications one has to pay for.
> Using machinery that operates 24 hours/day and handles up to 168kg of
> dough imposes one set of constraints; trying to get a good night's
> sleep while making a single loaf of sourdough bread imposes different
> constraints.
>
>
Those procedures are just "templates" or formulas for some real
situation. Apparently, they were using 100 kg of flour with 68 kg water
to get a bread dough and this was used henceforth as the basis to
communicate to other's so not everyone is doing something different in
amounts and and one has to recalculate the whole thing in order to
compare it.

Bakeries sure have different work schedules than a home baker.
A "regular" 3-Stage procedure with the last stage growing over night is
documented somewhere like this:
Stage 1 - 08:00
Stage 2 - 15:00
Stage 3 - 20:00
Make dough 04:00

I get along fine with the 6 hours on the first stage , setting up the
first stage at midnight and having the 2. stages ingredients all
weighted out ready to go.
> While optimum results are achieved when the micro-organism activity is
> at its peak before starting the next stage of the process, I have found
> the process to be very forgiving in sub-optimal situations.
>
> In plain English, I can make very edible sourdough rye bread and still
> get a good night's sleep. And by taste-buds are too coarse to detect
> the finer nuances that the fluctuations in the many dozens of chemicals
> (produced during the baking process) contribute to the taste of the
> final loaf of bread.
>
>
My objective with the DM process was not only to get good bread but also
to be able to throw out that sourdough starter growing box with the 500
knobs to turn and have some kind of baseline to go from. The DM-3 Stage
was a nice project to implement because it was the only one I had all
the starter flour/total flour ratios for different rye percentages
20/40/60/80 available.

It also gives me some peace of mind knowing that some institution I
consider credible in sourdough matters has figured that out empirically.
Something I would never be able to accomplish.
>> More oil....
>>
>
> Alas, none is left.
>
>
Soon - and it may be getting so expensive that nobody can afford it any
more.

Sam

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:49:28 -0700, Sam wrote:

> Felix Karpfen wrote:
>> [..]
>>> Usually, in literature, sourdough procedures are given to result in a
>>> final dough amount of _168 kg_
>>>
>>>
>> Even if I failed to find the source that inspired the machinery
>> developed by Detmolder, I consider my basic comment still valid.
>>
> Sure - my drive was only to get the source straight and with search
> engines, a current company has more web presence than a research
> department, now reorganized, publishing a couple of decades ago.

This is an answer of sorts both to the above and to the "requested
address" from Joe Umstead (Message-ID:
>)

Regrettably, my visits to the Detmolder webpage are as dated as the
reference to BAGKF (now transformed to BFEL).

When I visited the Detmolder site, I judged that I was not part of the
target audience.

Since then, I have switched to a new computer and a different Operating
System. The info, that I downloaded from the Detmolder URL, is buried in
the bowels of my old computer; I do not believe that my downloaded info is
worth the time needed to resurrect the computer and try to find the info.

And I got discouraged by my initial Google's efforts - they offered 268000
entries that related to "Detmolder". So far, zilch on my efforts to
refine the search. It is on the cards that Detmolder - like BAGKF - is
history.

For what it is worth (for German readers) - the wiki.de entry
(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauerteigführung) gives interesting
background info on the different approaches to multi-step sourdough
fermentation and "http://www.der-sauerteig.de" is loaded with recipes and
comments on the Detmold processes.

Felix



--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:
> This is an answer of sorts both to the above and to the "requested
> address" from Joe Umstead (Message-ID:
> >)
>
> Felix
>
>
>
Thank You, Felx

Joe Umstead