(Background--I am pretty new to sourdough baking. I have made bread
fby hand on and off or years with instant yeast. I have made a few
sourdough loaves over the last week more-or-less experimentally with
pretty good results, but I don't know if I can tweak it a bit to get
even better tasting bread. I have never been to California, so have no
basis for comparison with quality sourdough breads. Certainly my
results beat anything I can buy here in the stores.)

Is there any particular recipe for sourdough starter that does better
in warmer temperatures?

My unairconditioned Florida kitchen is pretty warm at this time of
year (>85 degrees). Various sourdough starter recipes give conflicting
advice about temperature. For example, one that includes a slice of
onion suggests that 85 degrees or more is good, and I have used this
recipe with excellent results. I have also made an excellent starter
just with mashed potato powder, sugar, salt and water that made
perfect bread except that it has a nose of cooked potatoes.

Another basic recipe without the onion suggests that temperatures over
80 degrees will probably incubate the wrong bacteria and give you a
bitter flavor. Does the onion make it more tolerant to heat, or is
that just a red herring?

I don't know how accurate any of this information is and how
temperature sensitive sourdough starters are. Preferably I don't want
to be brewing toxic bacteria that will kill me.

Recipes also suggest using bottled or distilled water and not
chlorinated water. I don't really know if my local tapwater is
chlorinated or not. Certainly I would not think of using swimming pool
water! So far my starters have been OK with tap water. How crucial is
this bottled water angle?

Another recipe suggests that organic rye flour is better. How does the
organicity effect the quality of the starter, or is this just a
preference?

Any comments?

You'll probably get a half dozen conflicting answers..... but here goes....


> Is there any particular recipe for sourdough starter that does better
> in warmer temperatures?
>

Given that sourdough LONG predates air conditioning, I think it's pretty
hardy and temperature is not that big a deal. Ideally, you want your
dough around 78F, as most bakers agree that is about the optimum
temperature for dough development. The rule of 240 is a good way of
getting there. Basically, subtract your room temperature, in
Fahrenheit, from 240, then subtract your flour temperature from that.
The result is your water temperature. Most of us have more control over
the water temperature than room or flour temperatures. If your tap
water temperature is higher than your target water temperature, use some
ice to cool the water. In some southern commercial bakeries ice is part
of the water that is put into the mixer.
> My unairconditioned Florida kitchen is pretty warm at this time of
> year (>85 degrees). Various sourdough starter recipes give conflicting
> advice about temperature. For example, one that includes a slice of
> onion suggests that 85 degrees or more is good, and I have used this
> recipe with excellent results. I have also made an excellent starter
> just with mashed potato powder, sugar, salt and water that made
> perfect bread except that it has a nose of cooked potatoes.
>

Until this week, my bakery was running between 85 and 95. No problems.
If you need to slow down your rise time, you can also cut back on the
amount of starter you use. Many people like potato breads. However,
when you switch your starter to flour and water, the potato nose will
fade out pretty quickly.

Personally, all I use to start starters is flour and water, with one
approach using a bit of malted barley and salt. Onions, cabbage leaves,
grape leaves, bakers yeast, grapes, potatoes, etc, etc are not needed
and are not desirable. In many cases, you don't get a sourdough starter
until these additions have been weaned from the starter and the yeast
and bacteria that should have started the starter take over. (King
Arthur flour is suggesting the use of canned pineapple juice for the
initial mix and the first two feedings to reduce the chances that the
wrong bacteria will start your starter. Not bad advice, but the bad
bacteria will be killed off pretty quickly even without the pineapple
juice.)
> Another basic recipe without the onion suggests that temperatures over
> 80 degrees will probably incubate the wrong bacteria and give you a
> bitter flavor. Does the onion make it more tolerant to heat, or is
> that just a red herring?
>

Red herring or old husbands tale. All you need is flour and water.

> I don't know how accurate any of this information is and how
> temperature sensitive sourdough starters are. Preferably I don't want
> to be brewing toxic bacteria that will kill me.
>

Sourdough starters are somewhat temperature sensitive. If the
temperature gets too high the yeast are favored over the bacteria and
the bacteria start to die off. Still, people have been making
sourdough for around 10,000 years, most of that time without anything
approaching what we would consider to be temperature controls.

> Recipes also suggest using bottled or distilled water and not
> chlorinated water. I don't really know if my local tapwater is
> chlorinated or not. Certainly I would not think of using swimming pool
> water! So far my starters have been OK with tap water. How crucial is
> this bottled water angle?
>

Not very crucial. If you enjoy your tap water, if it doesn't smell or
taste of chlorine, it will probably be OK. If your starter doesn't
start, then get some bottled drinking water. If it doesn't take off,
how much have you lost? A nickel's worth of flour and a day or two?

> Another recipe suggests that organic rye flour is better. How does the
> organicity effect the quality of the starter, or is this just a
> preference?
>
I find that it is easier to start a starter with organic whole grain
flours. They are typically less processed and more likely to still have
the yeast and bacteria on them to start a starter quickly. There is
some debate as to where the bacteria comes from, but there is no debate
about the yeast coming mostly from the grain. The biggest myth of
sourdough is that you are "catching a starter from the air." If you
look at the critter count in the air and on the flour, you'll see it is
orders of magnitude higher on the flour. It is far more likely that the
starter will start from critters on the flour. There are several
reports of people who have sterilized their media before trying to start
a starter. People who almost always succeeded in starting a starter
reported a failure rate in excess of 90%. Yes,. you can catch a starter
from the air, but the odds don't favor it.

My final suggestion to all sourdough beginners is to get a known good
starter rather than starting a starter yourself. Some sources are a
friend who is a sourdough baker, a local bakery willing to share, King
Arthur Flour, Sourdoughs International, Mr. Baker and the Friends of
Carl. The Friends of Carl distribute an excellent starter at no cost
other than a stamped self-addressed envelope (though I encourage people
to put a buck or five in your letter to support their efforts). The
friends of Carl web page is at http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/

Why do I suggest sourdough beginners first use a known good starter? I
am reminded of Christopher Columbus who didn't know where he was going,
didn't know where he was when he got there, and didn't know where he'd
been. If you don't know what a good starter looks like, smells like,
tastes like, or how it should work and handle, your chances of achieving
one are fairly slim. Using a known good starter eliminates a lot of
variables and makes the learning curve less steep. Once you know what
you are doing, then start your own starter.

Mike


--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Umbilical Cord? Nah, that's a Baby Bungee!

On Sep 6, 10:04 am, Mike Avery > wrote:
> You'll probably get a half dozen conflicting answers..... but here goes....
>
> > Is there any particular recipe for sourdough starter that does better
> > in warmer temperatures?
>
> Given that sourdough LONG predates air conditioning, I think it's pretty
> hardy and temperature is not that big a deal. Ideally, you want your
> dough around 78F, as most bakers agree that is about the optimum
> temperature for dough development. The rule of 240 is a good way of
> getting there. Basically, subtract your room temperature, in
> Fahrenheit, from 240, then subtract your flour temperature from that.
> The result is your water temperature. Most of us have more control over
> the water temperature than room or flour temperatures. If your tap
> water temperature is higher than your target water temperature, use some
> ice to cool the water. In some southern commercial bakeries ice is part
> of the water that is put into the mixer.
>
> > My unairconditioned Florida kitchen is pretty warm at this time of
> > year (>85 degrees). Various sourdough starter recipes give conflicting
> > advice about temperature. For example, one that includes a slice of
> > onion suggests that 85 degrees or more is good, and I have used this
> > recipe with excellent results. I have also made an excellent starter
> > just with mashed potato powder, sugar, salt and water that made
> > perfect bread except that it has a nose of cooked potatoes.
>
> Until this week, my bakery was running between 85 and 95. No problems.
> If you need to slow down your rise time, you can also cut back on the
> amount of starter you use. Many people like potato breads. However,
> when you switch your starter to flour and water, the potato nose will
> fade out pretty quickly.
>
> Personally, all I use to start starters is flour and water, with one
> approach using a bit of malted barley and salt. Onions, cabbage leaves,
> grape leaves, bakers yeast, grapes, potatoes, etc, etc are not needed
> and are not desirable. In many cases, you don't get a sourdough starter
> until these additions have been weaned from the starter and the yeast
> and bacteria that should have started the starter take over. (King
> Arthur flour is suggesting the use of canned pineapple juice for the
> initial mix and the first two feedings to reduce the chances that the
> wrong bacteria will start your starter. Not bad advice, but the bad
> bacteria will be killed off pretty quickly even without the pineapple
> juice.)
>
> > Another basic recipe without the onion suggests that temperatures over
> > 80 degrees will probably incubate the wrong bacteria and give you a
> > bitter flavor. Does the onion make it more tolerant to heat, or is
> > that just a red herring?
>
> Red herring or old husbands tale. All you need is flour and water.
>
> > I don't know how accurate any of this information is and how
> > temperature sensitive sourdough starters are. Preferably I don't want
> > to be brewing toxic bacteria that will kill me.
>
> Sourdough starters are somewhat temperature sensitive. If the
> temperature gets too high the yeast are favored over the bacteria and
> the bacteria start to die off. Still, people have been making
> sourdough for around 10,000 years, most of that time without anything
> approaching what we would consider to be temperature controls.
>
> > Recipes also suggest using bottled or distilled water and not
> > chlorinated water. I don't really know if my local tapwater is
> > chlorinated or not. Certainly I would not think of using swimming pool
> > water! So far my starters have been OK with tap water. How crucial is
> > this bottled water angle?
>
> Not very crucial. If you enjoy your tap water, if it doesn't smell or
> taste of chlorine, it will probably be OK. If your starter doesn't
> start, then get some bottled drinking water. If it doesn't take off,
> how much have you lost? A nickel's worth of flour and a day or two?
>
> > Another recipe suggests that organic rye flour is better. How does the
> > organicity effect the quality of the starter, or is this just a
> > preference?
>
> I find that it is easier to start a starter with organic whole grain
> flours. They are typically less processed and more likely to still have
> the yeast and bacteria on them to start a starter quickly. There is
> some debate as to where the bacteria comes from, but there is no debate
> about the yeast coming mostly from the grain. The biggest myth of
> sourdough is that you are "catching a starter from the air." If you
> look at the critter count in the air and on the flour, you'll see it is
> orders of magnitude higher on the flour. It is far more likely that the
> starter will start from critters on the flour. There are several
> reports of people who have sterilized their media before trying to start
> a starter. People who almost always succeeded in starting a starter
> reported a failure rate in excess of 90%. Yes,. you can catch a starter
> from the air, but the odds don't favor it.
>
> My final suggestion to all sourdough beginners is to get a known good
> starter rather than starting a starter yourself. Some sources are a
> friend who is a sourdough baker, a local bakery willing to share, King
> Arthur Flour, Sourdoughs International, Mr. Baker and the Friends of
> Carl. The Friends of Carl distribute an excellent starter at no cost
> other than a stamped self-addressed envelope (though I encourage people
> to put a buck or five in your letter to support their efforts). The
> friends of Carl web page is athttp://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/
>
> Why do I suggest sourdough beginners first use a known good starter? I
> am reminded of Christopher Columbus who didn't know where he was going,
> didn't know where he was when he got there, and didn't know where he'd
> been. If you don't know what a good starter looks like, smells like,
> tastes like, or how it should work and handle, your chances of achieving
> one are fairly slim. Using a known good starter eliminates a lot of
> variables and makes the learning curve less steep. Once you know what
> you are doing, then start your own starter.
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
> part time baker ICQ 16241692
> networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
> wordsmith
>
> A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
> Umbilical Cord? Nah, that's a Baby Bungee!

Thanks, that is a fantastically helpful response and addresses all my
queries perfectly.