On Mon, 26 May 2003 19:07:26 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>
>"Walt" > wrote in message
>news >
>> I went first, to the sourdough/basicbread one, but amongst other
>> things it said Ingredients: 1 package of yeast" etc and I was confused,
>> I dont have any idea what size a package is, and I thought the idea of
>> sourdough (at least in this ng) was not to use bought-in yeast?
>





Hi all,

I am new to this group. I have successfully been keeping my sourdough
starter for 6 months. It makes the very best bread.

I would warn you about using commercial yeast in your sourdough.
While it will assure you of a rise and speed it up, it will also kill
the wild yeast and the bacteria in your starter. So, you really
aren't making sourdough bread. And, depending on how fast it kills it
and how strong your starter is, you won't even taste the sourness.

I would highly recommend Ed Wood's book called Classic Sourdough. It
explains the first loaf of bread with a new starter and how patient
you have to be. My first loaf took almost 8 hours for the first rise.

Diane

>David Feuer
>P.S. "Pancake syrup" should be illegal. "Sugar-free pancake syrup"
>should be a felony.



As a New Englander and pure Yankee I agree with you David. Pure Maple
Syrup is the only one that counts.

But oh this waffle discussion is awesome. Have you all tried sour
dough waffles with a great stew poured over them. Not a breakfast
food, but awesome!

Diane

"Hoople & Diane" > wrote in message
s.com...
> As a New Englander and pure Yankee I agree with you David.
Pure Maple
> Syrup is the only one that counts.
> But oh this waffle discussion is awesome. Have you all tried
sour
> dough waffles with a great stew poured over them. Not a
breakfast
> food, but awesome!
> Diane

Never tried the stew and waffle thing, sounds good. As for Maple
Syrup. that's all I use. I buy a gallon a year and enjoy it.
The only thing I have eaten that came close was some hot home
made syrup my friend made with maple sugar. Her sourdough
pancakes and hot home made syrup were out of this world. My kids
still talk about them.
Ernie

Ernie wrote:
>
> "Hoople & Diane" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> > ... Have you all tried sour dough waffles with a great stew poured over them.
> > Not a breakfast food, but awesome!

> Never tried the stew and waffle thing, sounds good.

Chicken pot waffles.

B/

Hoople & Diane wrote:

> I would warn you about using commercial yeast in your sourdough.
> While it will assure you of a rise and speed it up, it will also kill
> the wild yeast and the bacteria in your starter.

That's an interesting observation.

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#456

speaks otherwise.

> So, you really
> aren't making sourdough bread. And, depending on how fast it kills it
> and how strong your starter is, you won't even taste the sourness.

Maybe the way you grew your starter made it so weak it was overwhelmed
by the baker's yeast. Note that the reference I gave above was talking
about and "established" starter.


> I would highly recommend Ed Wood's book called Classic Sourdough. It
> explains the first loaf of bread with a new starter and how patient
> you have to be. My first loaf took almost 8 hours for the first rise.

That would show some weakness, wouldn't it?

So, how did you get your starter and how do you grow it to make bread?
If you would explain this, maybe something can be learned from it.

Thank you,

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:40:37 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Hoople & Diane wrote:
>
>> I would warn you about using commercial yeast in your sourdough.
>> While it will assure you of a rise and speed it up, it will also kill
>> the wild yeast and the bacteria in your starter.
>
>That's an interesting observation.
>
>http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#456
>
>speaks otherwise.
>
>> So, you really
>> aren't making sourdough bread. And, depending on how fast it kills it
>> and how strong your starter is, you won't even taste the sourness.
>
>Maybe the way you grew your starter made it so weak it was overwhelmed
>by the baker's yeast. Note that the reference I gave above was talking
>about and "established" starter.
>
>
>> I would highly recommend Ed Wood's book called Classic Sourdough. It
>> explains the first loaf of bread with a new starter and how patient
>> you have to be. My first loaf took almost 8 hours for the first rise.
>
>That would show some weakness, wouldn't it?
>
>So, how did you get your starter and how do you grow it to make bread?
>If you would explain this, maybe something can be learned from it.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Samartha


I don't ever use commercial yeasts in my sourdough bread. I am using
the King Arthur Starter and according to the book by Ed Wood, the
temperature in my home (60°) assured me of a slow rise with time for
the sourness to develop.

According to most of the stuff I have read, it is just fine to use
sourdough starter as an ingredient in other bread. It will add taste
and also allow the bread to stay fresh longer. But to make sourdough
bread assumes that you are using the starter to flavor and rise the
bread.

"Starters made with commercial bakers' yeast are not natural leavens.
They are yeasted starters. They do not produce the same results in
terms of flavor, texture and keeping qualities as natural leaven
starters do. You will never obtain true sourdough bread from a starter
that contains commercial bakers yeast. However, it is possible that a
yeasted starter might be taken over by natural yeasts and converted
into a natural leaven. " from
http://www.angelfire.com/ab/bethsbre...Sourdough.html



Now that my starter is established it takes about 2-3 hours for the
first rise and 1 1/2 - 2hours for the second rise.

I feed my starter stone ground whole wheat flour. It is very healthy
and even continues to grow in the refrigerator.

The information about the wild yeast and bacteria being killed isn't
an opinion. It is a fact.

The information on your site:
(460 And to the margin note right next (CONCERNING THE ABILITY OF
BACTERIAL

461 FERMENTATION TO RAISE A LOAF OF BREAD, WITHOUT YEAST): We¹ve done
the

462 experiments, it works quite well without yeast. ) Is confusing to
me. Since sourdough has wild yeast in it aren't you referring to
without commercial yeast?




Diane

"Diane" > wrote in message
s.com...

> Samartha Deva wrote:
>
> >Hoople & Diane wrote:
> >
> >> I would warn you about using commercial yeast in your sourdough.
> >> While it will assure you of a rise and speed it up, it will also kill
> >> the wild yeast and the bacteria in your starter.
> >
> >That's an interesting observation.
> >
> >http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#456
> >
> >speaks otherwise.
> >
> >> So, you really
> >> aren't making sourdough bread. And, depending on how fast it kills it
> >> and how strong your starter is, you won't even taste the sourness.
> >
> >Maybe the way you grew your starter made it so weak it was overwhelmed
> >by the baker's yeast. Note that the reference I gave above was talking
> >about and "established" starter.
> >

> The information about the wild yeast and bacteria being killed isn't
> an opinion. It is a fact.
>

OK, it looks like you are saying that it is a fact that commercial yeast
added to a sourdough starter and or bread made with one will kill off the
natural yeast and bacteria. I've always read that is was the other way
around, that commercial yeast was unable to survive very long in the
environment produced by a natural starter. Am I misunderstanding what you
are saying? If not, do you have any links to cites for this claim?

Thanks,
-Mike

"Diane" > wrote in message
s.com...
snip
> "Starters made with commercial bakers' yeast are not natural leavens.
> They are yeasted starters. They do not produce the same results in
> terms of flavor, texture and keeping qualities as natural leaven
> starters do. You will never obtain true sourdough bread from a starter
> that contains commercial bakers yeast. However, it is possible that a
> yeasted starter might be taken over by natural yeasts and converted
> into a natural leaven. " from
> http://www.angelfire.com/ab/bethsbre...Sourdough.html
snip
> Diane

You are confusing two different issues. A 'starter' made with commercial
yeast is simply a sponge made of flour and commercial yeast and can be kept
somewhat longer term. It has nothing to do with sourdough. Beth is
referring to the possibility of a longer kept commercial yeast starter being
taken over by natural organisms and becoming sourdough. If you re-read the
above paragraph in this context, the paragraph makes sense. However, a
sourdough starter is one that is natural organisms only. You can however
make bread by 'spiking' your sourdough bread dough with commercial yeast and
this will regulate the rise to a predictable timing--in which case the
sourdough is used considerably for flavor and the bread is not dependent
upon it for rise. You would not, however, ever use a commercial yeast in
combination with your stored mother jar of sourdough starter. That is the
jar that you use to make more starter in preparation for bread making and
that is kept as is, sourdough organisms only. Beth knows her stuff and you
need to re-read what she has written.
Janet

Diane wrote:
[...]
> >> you have to be. My first loaf took almost 8 hours for the first rise.
> >
> >That would show some weakness, wouldn't it?
> >
> >So, how did you get your starter and how do you grow it to make bread?
> >If you would explain this, maybe something can be learned from it.
> >
> >Thank you,
> >
> >Samartha
>
> I don't ever use commercial yeasts in my sourdough bread. I am using
> the King Arthur Starter and according to the book by Ed Wood, the
> temperature in my home (60°) assured me of a slow rise with time for
> the sourness to develop.

Ok, so you were not growing a newborn starter from scratch, which I
assumed from your subject, but bought a package which contained
organisms from a previously established sourdough culture and used that
as a seed to grow more. Thanks for clarifying.

> According to most of the stuff I have read, it is just fine to use
> sourdough starter as an ingredient in other bread.

You can do anything if you just read the right material and use this as
justification.

> It will add taste
> and also allow the bread to stay fresh longer. But to make sourdough
> bread assumes that you are using the starter to flavor and rise the
> bread.

That's a question of definition. I'd say, bread made from flour, water,
salt and culture - all organic, of cause;-) would pass the qualification
pretty well and from there, one can deviate until it starts getting
nebulous - is the supermarket sourdough bread which uses chemicals to
simulate the taste still sourdough bread as it says on the label? Is a
bread which uses a dead sourdough extract/concentrate as flavor
ingredient and baker's yeast to quick rise the dough a sourdough bread?

Maybe the term "natural sourdough bread leavened without baker's yeast"
would be a more clear definition of what is the main type of bread of
discussion here.

> "Starters made with commercial bakers' yeast are not natural leavens.
> They are yeasted starters. They do not produce the same results in
> terms of flavor, texture and keeping qualities as natural leaven
> starters do. You will never obtain true sourdough bread from a starter
> that contains commercial bakers yeast.

Not that I promote baker's yeast for sourdough breads, but there are
several descriptions to grow a starter which starts with yeast or "just
a grain of yeast" and develop into stable cultures after a while.

> However, it is possible that a
> yeasted starter might be taken over by natural yeasts and converted
> into a natural leaven. " from
> http://www.angelfire.com/ab/bethsbre...Sourdough.html

There you go - why would this happen, if the yeast would kill the
"natural" one's?

> Now that my starter is established it takes about 2-3 hours for the
> first rise and 1 1/2 - 2hours for the second rise.
>
> I feed my starter stone ground whole wheat flour. It is very healthy
> and even continues to grow in the refrigerator.
>
> The information about the wild yeast and bacteria being killed isn't
> an opinion. It is a fact.

Where did you learn this fact?

Did it actually happen to you that you had an established starter, fed
it some yeast and then it either died or did not get sour anymore?

That would be interesting.

>
> The information on your site:
> (460 And to the margin note right next (CONCERNING THE ABILITY OF
> BACTERIAL
>
> 461 FERMENTATION TO RAISE A LOAF OF BREAD, WITHOUT YEAST): We¹ve done
> the
>
> 462 experiments, it works quite well without yeast. ) Is confusing to
> me.
> Since sourdough has wild yeast in it aren't you referring to
> without commercial yeast?

First of all, the text can also be found in Dan Wing/Alan Scott's great
book "The Bread Builders" on page 230 - if you get a chance to take a
peek at that book, it's really worth it.

The section you find confusing talks about LB's being able to rise a
dough without yeasts - they've checked this out, and that's what they
are talking about.

You assume that a sourdough needs to have yeast - well, it's a question
of definition.

The one's I found define sourdough, see the

http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html

don't limit their definition to certain organisms as you do if you say
that it needs to have wild yeast.

If you find another good sourdough definition, please post it.

Thank you,

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Diane" > wrote in message =
s.com...

> ... the temperature in my home (60=B0) ... assured me of a slow rise=20
> with time for the sourness to develop. =20

Is it Hoople who is turning down the thermostat?

Does Hoople know that you are irritating the r.f.s. advice givers
by giving them advice?

> Now that my starter is established it takes about 2-3 hours for the
> first rise and 1 1/2 - 2hours for the second rise.

Aha, seems like you may have taken possession of the thermostat.
Based on that report, it would appear you have succeeded to get it=20
pretty warm at last.

Did you dump Hoople? Guess not -- you're still using his mailbox.

Seems like you are asking for "suggestions for what's next". First =
thing
is to dump Hoople. After that, more reading in the FAQs.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

P.S. Mrs. Adams turns down the thermostat in my house, but I have a
box with its own thermostat, usually at 85 or 90=B0F., for dough =
raising.
(She does not know how to find that thermostat -- it is hidden.)

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 05:02:30 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>
>"Diane" > wrote in message s.com...
>
>> ... the temperature in my home (60°) ... assured me of a slow rise
>> with time for the sourness to develop.
>
>Is it Hoople who is turning down the thermostat?

(Unfortunately we are not millionaires and 60 is about the
temperature we can afford to keep the house during the day and at
night who needs heat when we have each other. Fortunately I control
my own thermostat)
>
>Does Hoople know that you are irritating the r.f.s. advice givers
>by giving them advice?
>
>> Now that my starter is established it takes about 2-3 hours for the
>> first rise and 1 1/2 - 2hours for the second rise.
>
I rise bread as I have been doing it for the last 25+ year. In my
oven with the light on. It is a perfect temperature. No need to heat
the house for something that takes up less than one sqaure foot.


>
>Did you dump Hoople? Guess not -- you're still using his mailbox.
>
>Seems like you are asking for "suggestions for what's next". First thing
>is to dump Hoople. After that, more reading in the FAQs.

I am enjoying baking my bread and have been very successful. I don't
think I need suggestions from you. I am surprised with an attitude
like yours that there is a Mrs. Adams.

"Diane" > wrote in message =
s.com...

> I don't think I need suggestions from you. I am surprised with=20
> an attitude like yours that there is a Mrs. Adams.

Well, Mrs. Adams would never ask me for suggestions about what
to do next.

> I am enjoying baking my bread and have been very successful.

Can you post a picture? =20

Thanks. =20

---
DickA =20

"Diane" > wrote in message
s.com...
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:40:37 -0700, Samartha Deva
> > wrote:
>
> >Hoople & Diane wrote:
> >
> >> I would warn you about using commercial yeast in your sourdough.
> >> While it will assure you of a rise and speed it up, it will also kill
> >> the wild yeast and the bacteria in your starter.
> >
> >That's an interesting observation.
> >
> >http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#456
> >
> >speaks otherwise.
> >
> >> So, you really
> >> aren't making sourdough bread. And, depending on how fast it kills it
> >> and how strong your starter is, you won't even taste the sourness.
> >
> >Maybe the way you grew your starter made it so weak it was overwhelmed
> >by the baker's yeast. Note that the reference I gave above was talking
> >about and "established" starter.
> >
> >
> >> I would highly recommend Ed Wood's book called Classic Sourdough. It
> >> explains the first loaf of bread with a new starter and how patient
> >> you have to be. My first loaf took almost 8 hours for the first rise.
> >
> >That would show some weakness, wouldn't it?
> >
> >So, how did you get your starter and how do you grow it to make bread?
> >If you would explain this, maybe something can be learned from it.
> >
> >Thank you,
> >
> >Samartha
>
>
> I don't ever use commercial yeasts in my sourdough bread. I am using
> the King Arthur Starter and according to the book by Ed Wood, the
> temperature in my home (60°) assured me of a slow rise with time for
> the sourness to develop.
>
> According to most of the stuff I have read, it is just fine to use
> sourdough starter as an ingredient in other bread. It will add taste
> and also allow the bread to stay fresh longer. But to make sourdough
> bread assumes that you are using the starter to flavor and rise the
> bread.
>
> "Starters made with commercial bakers' yeast are not natural leavens.
> They are yeasted starters. They do not produce the same results in
> terms of flavor, texture and keeping qualities as natural leaven
> starters do. You will never obtain true sourdough bread from a starter
> that contains commercial bakers yeast. However, it is possible that a
> yeasted starter might be taken over by natural yeasts and converted
> into a natural leaven. " from
> http://www.angelfire.com/ab/bethsbre...Sourdough.html
>
>
>
> Now that my starter is established it takes about 2-3 hours for the
> first rise and 1 1/2 - 2hours for the second rise.
>
> I feed my starter stone ground whole wheat flour. It is very healthy
> and even continues to grow in the refrigerator.
>
> The information about the wild yeast and bacteria being killed isn't
> an opinion. It is a fact.
>
> The information on your site:
> (460 And to the margin note right next (CONCERNING THE ABILITY OF
> BACTERIAL
>
> 461 FERMENTATION TO RAISE A LOAF OF BREAD, WITHOUT YEAST): We¹ve done
> the
>
> 462 experiments, it works quite well without yeast. ) Is confusing to
> me. Since sourdough has wild yeast in it aren't you referring to
> without commercial yeast?
>
> >
> Diane

>>>I feed my starter stone ground whole wheat flour. It is very healthy
and even continues to grow in the refrigerator.<<<

Diane, I know this "stone ground whole wheat flour" has been discussed in
regard to Crocodile bread, but since you say that you do use it, I have two
questions:

1) Do you live and buy it in the U.S.
2) If you are familiar with King Arthur whole wheat white and have used it,
would this qualify as "stone ground whole wheat flour," and by the same
token, would King Arthur's whole wheat flour qualify as "stone ground whole
wheat flour," or would stone ground whole wheat flour grind/texture be more
like the Hodgson's "stone ground rye flour."

Thanks,
Dee

>