Last night, I started a starter with whole-grain flour and filtered
water mixed to the consistency of pancake batter (or maybe just a
touch thicker). Then, this afternoon, I doubled the mix, but kept the
same consistency (or maybe I made it a little more wet). Anyway, I
just checked it (about 11 hours after feeding) and there was
definitely something happening. It was bubbling and when I stirred
it, it had a smell like pickled cabbage (although not as strong). Is
that right, or should it be a sweeter smell more like packaged yeast?
Am I just being paranoid or are things going wrong?

Also, with regards to feeding, is it possible to over feed? Is every
twelve hours ok for a starter as fresh as mine? It _is_ bubbling a
lot.

Thanks for the help!

Sincerely
Aaron

Hello Aaron,

you wrote:
>
> Last night, I started a starter with whole-grain flour and filtered
> water mixed to the consistency of pancake batter (or maybe just a
> touch thicker). Then, this afternoon, I doubled the mix, but kept the
> same consistency (or maybe I made it a little more wet). Anyway, I
> just checked it (about 11 hours after feeding) and there was
> definitely something happening. It was bubbling and when I stirred
> it, it had a smell like pickled cabbage (although not as strong). Is
> that right, or should it be a sweeter smell more like packaged yeast?

That seems to be on the lighter side of the possible smell spectrum.

What you are looking for is fresh sour smell, maybe fruity, possibly
alcoholic - altogether interesting and not repulsive, as a foul/putrid
smell would be.

Packaged yeast smell differs from a starter smell and if you used full
grain flour, there is a great variety of smells possible.

Maybe the sense of smell was developed to distinguish good from bad food
sources and it still can work very well in this manner. So, if it smells
interesting, it is a good sign.

> Am I just being paranoid or are things going wrong?

First one.

>
> Also, with regards to feeding, is it possible to over feed?

Yes, in theory - if you exceed geometrical growth of microorganisms,
which means doubling every generation period. Practically, it should be
difficult to double every couple of hours without reducing.

That goes for stable cultures. On a starter birth, it's slightly
different since there is a lot of competition going on initially and
germ counts are lower, so it will be a slower process.

However, with constant feeding and geometrical growth, the culture will
"collapse" eventually, i. e. the growth rate will exceed the feeding
amount and it will stagnate and eventually die.

My "rule of thumb" (which I picked up somewhere & don't remember) is
that a new starter, collapsing twice is ready to be used.

What happens, after the first collapse, if you feed again, there is
another boost of growth which will enhance the culture since by then
most likely the shakeout of undesired organisms has happened.

> Is every
> twelve hours ok for a starter as fresh as mine? It _is_ bubbling a
> lot.

That's the shakeout of organisms with weird smells going on. It could be
that the activity goes down, depending where you are and it is also
pretty random what can happen. There are a lot of factors involved, what
grows, what you feed, temperature etc.

Twelve hours is ok, but if you feed constant, you will collapse. If you
feed geometric (doubling the existing amount, most likely reducing the
culture before feeding after you reached several gallons of volume ;-),
you can sustain the culture, but probably not with a 12 hour feeding. If
you think that the generation doubling time is in the 1 - 2 hour range,
you can estimate yourself when you hit the peak and when it will
degrade.

To avoid the geometric growth and large waste of material with home
baking frequency i. e. not every day, you would put your starter in the
fridge in order to slow down growth close to nothing near freezing
temperature.

It looks as if you are on the right track with your starter. There are
other cases where the souring goes very fast, in less than 10 hours and
then it lacks activity and you wait until something happens but it is
already over soured. That's hard to detect.

Enjoy your new toy,

Samartha


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I've found that whole wheat is much more responsive to start a starter,
but it does smell at first. The smell changes to a more normal sourdough
start smell after a while, and I guess that is when I feel it has matured
to the point that I can use it without being scared. :-)

On a similar vein, I find that whole wheat always smells even in the case
of feeding normal (white) starter with whole wheat. I made pancakes that
way once that were disgusting and I had to toss the lot. Maybe I need a
higher start:whole wheat flour food ratio?


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:38:31 -0600, Aaron wrote:

> Last night, I started a starter with whole-grain flour and filtered
> water mixed to the consistency of pancake batter (or maybe just a
> touch thicker). Then, this afternoon, I doubled the mix, but kept the
> same consistency (or maybe I made it a little more wet). Anyway, I
> just checked it (about 11 hours after feeding) and there was
> definitely something happening. It was bubbling and when I stirred
> it, it had a smell like pickled cabbage (although not as strong). Is
> that right, or should it be a sweeter smell more like packaged yeast?
> Am I just being paranoid or are things going wrong?
>
> Also, with regards to feeding, is it possible to over feed? Is every
> twelve hours ok for a starter as fresh as mine? It _is_ bubbling a
> lot.
>
> Thanks for the help!
>
> Sincerely
> Aaron

Well, I reduced and fed again this morning, and I just checked it
(about 12 hours after feeding) and there is no activity. No bubbles,
just bad smells. Any thoughts? Should I feed every 12 hours or 24
hours? Should I feed more often or less often when I see activity?

Also, this morning, there was some white stuff in the mix, which I
removed. Any ideas as to what this was?

Thanks again for helping a newbie!

Aaron,

It is hard to tell what you are doing. Now you say, you are reducing -
what, how much, at what temperature, how long, are there any bubbles,
even tiny one's and if so, for how long?

I tried to explain, what the mechanisms are with constant feedings -
did that make any sense? If you reduce now, why are you doing it? Are
you following any recipe in what you are doing, do you have a plan?

If you haven't, go the http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html and
see if you can take this as a reference. Is the temperature you have the
same or lower. If it is lower, then your process could be slower. Are
the feeding amount ratios the same or higher? If they are higher (more
additions), you could be slower.


Aaron wrote:
>
> Well, I reduced and fed again this morning, and I just checked it
> (about 12 hours after feeding) and there is no activity. No bubbles,
> just bad smells. Any thoughts? Should I feed every 12 hours or 24
> hours? Should I feed more often or less often when I see activity?

I'd stick to consistent 12 hours with constant feedings with not too
cold a temperature and see what happens in a time frame of 3 - 4 days.

>
> Also, this morning, there was some white stuff in the mix, which I
> removed. Any ideas as to what this was?

No idea - if it comes again and it bothers you, describe it a bit more
than "white stuff".

Good luck,

Samartha

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Hi Aaron,

I am working on a starter using Samartha's method, more or less. Here are
some of my experiences.

I used rye flour and water (a little less than half cup of flour and about a
half cup of water from the tap) and after 12 hours at about 80-85 F I saw
little bubbles. Very exciting. Then I fed with more flour and water after
about 12 hours, about the same proportions. I never got the rising that
Samartha described but, nor the foul smell. It just kind of sat there. So
I thought maybe I was feeding it to often. It seemed that there was some
activity before I fed it, which then died down after I fed it. So I let it
sit for a day or so without feeding to see if the activity increased or the
odor changed. Not much happened.

When I looked at it last night the mixture seemed rather wet, liquid, like
very thin batter. So I added about 1/2 c of rye flour but no water. This
thickened it up. I have noticed that starter can get more runny as it sits.
I also had some lingering worries about what might be in the water that was
affecting growth--chlorine? Anyway, this morning things were bubbling away
and by noon the starter had risen significantly. The odor was strong, not
exactly foul, but not the most pleasant. I tasted it and it was quite sour,
much more sour than the white flour starter I had made.

In terms of the white stuff, this might be foam, but probably not if you
are not having much activity.

Hope this helps.

Dave

"Aaron" > wrote in message
...
> Well, I reduced and fed again this morning, and I just checked it
> (about 12 hours after feeding) and there is no activity. No bubbles,
> just bad smells. Any thoughts? Should I feed every 12 hours or 24
> hours? Should I feed more often or less often when I see activity?
>
> Also, this morning, there was some white stuff in the mix, which I
> removed. Any ideas as to what this was?
>
> Thanks again for helping a newbie!

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:28:58 -0500, "Dave Bazell" >
wrote:

>When I looked at it last night the mixture seemed rather wet, liquid, like
>very thin batter. So I added about 1/2 c of rye flour but no water. This
>thickened it up. I have noticed that starter can get more runny as it sits.


I noticed this as well.

>I also had some lingering worries about what might be in the water that was
>affecting growth--chlorine? Anyway, this morning things were bubbling away
>and by noon the starter had risen significantly. The odor was strong, not
>exactly foul, but not the most pleasant. I tasted it and it was quite sour,
>much more sour than the white flour starter I had made.


You're a braver man than I. =) I can't get up the nerve to taste
mine, even though the oder has improved somewhat.

>
>In terms of the white stuff, this might be foam, but probably not if you
>are not having much activity.
>
>Hope this helps.


It does. Thanks.


>
>Dave

Sorry for not being more clear. When I feed, I take 1/3 of the old
mix and add it to a new mix. I don't increase the proportions, just
refresh 2/3 of the starter with whole grain flour every 24 hours.

Last night there were no bubbles, but this morning there were a few.
I have been feeding, (with the exception of the first day) about every
24 hours. The first day, I fed after 12 hours.

I've been keeping the starter at about room temperature, which for our
house is about 73-75f.

The smell is improving, but it's not quite there yet.

I hope this helps. I don't really have much of a recipe, except for
what I mentioned above. I somewhat understood your first message on
this topic, but I wasn't quite sure if you were saying that more
frequent feedings or less frequent feedings were more desirable. I'll
switch to every 12 hours like you suggest and see what happens,
however, I'm not sure what you mean by "constant feedings". Is taking
1/3 of the original too litle? Should I try to find a warmer place
for the starter?

Thanks again for your help.

Sincerely
Aaron Cannon

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:13:48 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Aaron,
>
>It is hard to tell what you are doing. Now you say, you are reducing -
>what, how much, at what temperature, how long, are there any bubbles,
>even tiny one's and if so, for how long?
>
>I tried to explain, what the mechanisms are with constant feedings -
>did that make any sense? If you reduce now, why are you doing it? Are
>you following any recipe in what you are doing, do you have a plan?
>
>If you haven't, go the http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html and
>see if you can take this as a reference. Is the temperature you have the
>same or lower. If it is lower, then your process could be slower. Are
>the feeding amount ratios the same or higher? If they are higher (more
>additions), you could be slower.
>
>
>Aaron wrote:
>>
>> Well, I reduced and fed again this morning, and I just checked it
>> (about 12 hours after feeding) and there is no activity. No bubbles,
>> just bad smells. Any thoughts? Should I feed every 12 hours or 24
>> hours? Should I feed more often or less often when I see activity?
>
>I'd stick to consistent 12 hours with constant feedings with not too
>cold a temperature and see what happens in a time frame of 3 - 4 days.
>
>>
>> Also, this morning, there was some white stuff in the mix, which I
>> removed. Any ideas as to what this was?
>
>No idea - if it comes again and it bothers you, describe it a bit more
>than "white stuff".
>
>Good luck,
>
>Samartha

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:28:58 -0500, Dave Bazell wrote:

> I have noticed that starter can get more runny as it sits.

Yes, this is something which I have noticed as well. Is there a way to
fix this?

Kevin

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:36:47 -0500, Kevin Breit >
wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:28:58 -0500, Dave Bazell wrote:
>
>> I have noticed that starter can get more runny as it sits.
>
>Yes, this is something which I have noticed as well. Is there a way to
>fix this?
>
>Kevin

Hi Kevin,

Why would you want to "fix" it? In what way do you believe it to be a
problem?

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

My experience with Samartha's rye starter:

The first time I did not notice the tiny bubbles that had formed
and I let it sit for three days waiting for something to happen.
A ring of mold started forming so I dumped it.

The second time I noticed tiney bubbles after 8 hours, so kept
feeding it rye flour every 8 hours and it got more active. When
I was sure it was started good I switched to feeding it white
flour.

During it's growth it went through a range of smells from bad to
good and now smells like you would expect a starter to smell. I
made a loaf of sourdough bread that rose well and had a distinct
sourdough taste, although it did not taste like my favorite San
Francisco Sourdough.
Ernie

Kevin Breit wrote:
>
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:28:58 -0500, Dave Bazell wrote:
>
> > I have noticed that starter can get more runny as it sits.
>
> Yes, this is something which I have noticed as well. Is there a way to
> fix this?

No, this is the process of fermenting i. e. breaking down/converting
structure and nutrients and it goes along with sourdough fermentation.
Eliminating this would take away the essence of this process. It's not
sourdough, if you don't ferment.

Now, you can have shorter fermentation with less degradation - that's a
possibility and probably desired at one point although not a priority
when growing a starter from scratch and having a lot of randomness going
on.

This degradation is very nice to observe when making sourdough
pancake/crepe (not the 1/2" puff ups) batter where gas holding structure
is not an issue. If you let it ferment for a while - a couple of days -
with full grain flour and pretty stiff, it will get soupy eventually.

So - get to know your starter and make friends with it!

Samartha

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On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:21:51 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
> Why would you want to "fix" it? In what way do you believe it to be a
> problem?

I didn't know that the extra water from fermentation (as explained in
Samartha Deva's post) was desirable. I'll be sure to keep it then.

To follow up on this, does it matter how watery the starter is? Mine is a
little more watery than perscribed (I may have added a wee bit too much
water, not sure) and I'm not sure if I should worry or not.

Kevin

Aaron wrote:
>
> Sorry for not being more clear. When I feed, I take 1/3 of the old
> mix and add it to a new mix. I don't increase the proportions, just
> refresh 2/3 of the starter with whole grain flour every 24 hours.

That makes sense now, thanks for explaining.

> Last night there were no bubbles, but this morning there were a few.
> I have been feeding, (with the exception of the first day) about every
> 24 hours. The first day, I fed after 12 hours.
>
> I've been keeping the starter at about room temperature, which for our
> house is about 73-75f.
>
> The smell is improving, but it's not quite there yet.
>
> I hope this helps. I don't really have much of a recipe, except for
> what I mentioned above. I somewhat understood your first message on
> this topic, but I wasn't quite sure if you were saying that more
> frequent feedings or less frequent feedings were more desirable. I'll
> switch to every 12 hours like you suggest and see what happens,
> however, I'm not sure what you mean by "constant feedings".

Maybe it's a language thing (my end). What I meant is that the same
amount is fed with every feeding (constant = the same).

> Is taking
> 1/3 of the original too litle? Should I try to find a warmer place
> for the starter?

I don't know if it matters much at this point. Keeping it warm does
help, and running it into overripe (very sour) is important in my
opinion because it eliminates the "bad" stuff.

The method on my starter web pages does not reduce but only adds the
same amount, so the ratio of old refreshment/old stage part decreases i.
e. less and less is added relative to the old amount forcing it into
overripe state.

In essence, what you are doing is keeping the ratio of old
stage/refreshment constant.

So, with tripling in 8 - 12 hours, you kind of maintain a state of the
culture of an _established_ starter.

With growing from scratch, it may delay the overripe stage in your case
with 24 hours. With your 12 hours, my guess is that you may delay
getting the right organisms growing and maybe never go into overripe.

But that's all guesswork. One case gets sour in 8 hours and with another
it takes 3 days.

Best is if you see what is happening and go from there, like what Dave
posted a few messages ago in this thread.

> Thanks again for your help.

My pleasure,

Samartha

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On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:18:23 -0500, Kevin Breit >
wrote:

>To follow up on this, does it matter how watery the starter is? Mine is a
>little more watery than perscribed (I may have added a wee bit too much
>water, not sure) and I'm not sure if I should worry or not.
>
>Kevin

Hi Kevin,

It may matter but only at the extremes. By that I mean that if you add
a ton of water the solids might just sink to the bottom. That might
make a difference. I don't know.

But within the range of reason (that is, a little thicker... a little
thinner...) it won't make a difference that you will notice.

Also, (and I mean this respectfully) try to "worry" about all this a
bit less. The process is, in fact, very forgiving. People have made
bread using these methods for thousands of years. You will succeed if
you find a set of instructions you like (Samartha's are great) and
stick with 'em with no (radical) departures.

But, to repeat, if you are intending to feed your starter, and you are
delayed in traffic, there is no need to make any emergency cell phone
calls... <g>

Have fun with it,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Samartha Deva wrote:

a typo

change from:

> The method on my starter web pages does not reduce but only adds the
> same amount, so the ratio of old refreshment/old stage part decreases i.
> e. less and less is added relative to the old amount forcing it into
> overripe state.

to:

> The method on my starter web pages does not reduce but only adds the
> same amount, so the ratio of refreshment/old stage part decreases i.
> e. less and less is added relative to the old amount forcing it into
> overripe state.


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On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:28:41 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
> Also, (and I mean this respectfully) try to "worry" about all this a
> bit less.

Would the fact that my starter smells a little bit more like glue than
sourdough be reason to worry?

Kevin

Kevin Breit wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:28:41 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
> > Also, (and I mean this respectfully) try to "worry" about all this a
> > bit less.
>
> Would the fact that my starter smells a little bit more like glue than
> sourdough be reason to worry?
>
Don't worry - try to enjoy. That's aromatic alcohols, vinegar and who
knows what else they produce.

Makes good bread taste.

I think it's a very good sign.

Samartha



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Awe! I think I get it now. The faster the ph drops, the faster the
unwanted organisms are eliminated. Also, the competition for the
dwindling food supply sort of forces the starter in to "survival of
the fittest mode". Do I got it or am I still missing the point?

Either way, you've been a huge help in getting things on the right
track. It smells better and better with each refreshing. It actually
smells somewhat like yeast now. It should be good to use soon if the
smell is any indication. I'm just waiting for the explosive growth
that I've read about.


On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:22:32 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Samartha Deva wrote:
>
>a typo
>
>change from:
>
>> The method on my starter web pages does not reduce but only adds the
>> same amount, so the ratio of old refreshment/old stage part decreases i.
>> e. less and less is added relative to the old amount forcing it into
>> overripe state.
>
>to:
>
>> The method on my starter web pages does not reduce but only adds the
>> same amount, so the ratio of refreshment/old stage part decreases i.
>> e. less and less is added relative to the old amount forcing it into
>> overripe state.
>

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:41:25 -0500, Kevin Breit >
wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:28:41 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
>> Also, (and I mean this respectfully) try to "worry" about all this a
>> bit less.
>
>Would the fact that my starter smells a little bit more like glue than
>sourdough be reason to worry?
>
>Kevin

Hi again Kevin,

No.

Also, (and I mean this respectfully) try to "worry" about all this a
bit less.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth,

IMO - if somebody has never smelled a ripe full grain starter in his/her
life and all of a sudden it appears to be like glue smell, that's a very
valid reason to be concerned and ask.

Samartha

Kenneth wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:41:25 -0500, Kevin Breit >
> wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:28:41 -0500, Kenneth wrote:
> >> Also, (and I mean this respectfully) try to "worry" about all this a
> >> bit less.
> >
> >Would the fact that my starter smells a little bit more like glue than
> >sourdough be reason to worry?
> >
> >Kevin
>
> Hi again Kevin,
>
> No.
>
> Also, (and I mean this respectfully) try to "worry" about all this a
> bit less.
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:23:27 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Kenneth,
>
>IMO - if somebody has never smelled a ripe full grain starter in his/her
>life and all of a sudden it appears to be like glue smell, that's a very
>valid reason to be concerned and ask.
>
>Samartha

Hi Samartha,

Where did I suggest that he not ask?

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
>
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:23:27 -0700, Samartha Deva
> > wrote:
>
> >Kenneth,
> >
> >IMO - if somebody has never smelled a ripe full grain starter in his/her
> >life and all of a sudden it appears to be like glue smell, that's a very
> >valid reason to be concerned and ask.
> >
> >Samartha
>
> Hi Samartha,
>
> Where did I suggest that he not ask?

Where did I write that you "suggested he not ask" ?

Samartha

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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:25:21 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Where did I write that you "suggested he not ask" ?
>
>Samartha

Hi Samartha,

Somehow, I suspect that you know my point...<g>

The gentleman used the word "worry" so many times that it made me
itch. I was just trying to suggest that he worry a bit less.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
>
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:25:21 -0700, Samartha Deva
> > wrote:
>
> >Where did I write that you "suggested he not ask" ?
> >
> >Samartha
>
> Hi Samartha,
>
> Somehow, I suspect that you know my point...<g>

So we would talk about unwritten/spoken words. <g too>

In relation to bread & sourdough - you say "very good bread", I
understand "very good bread", but we both refer to totally different
objects.

> The gentleman used the word "worry" so many times that it made me
> itch. I was just trying to suggest that he worry a bit less.

True, he used that word "worry" a lot, maybe it was just asking for more
information. I don't think basic "worry" - pending major upheaval - was
an issue here. That's how I saw it with that.

Samartha

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