Or, rather, lack of smell.

All the references to sourdough starter and smell/aroma suggest that there
is one, whether light or strong.

My started was made by me and lives in my fridge, covered by a fine net (one
of those things weighted with beads round the edge).It has no particular
smell that I can detect and I don't think it gives a particular 'sour'
flavour to the bread.

Don't get me wrong, the bread smells and tastes very good, it's just that it
doesn't seem, well, sour!

Nor did the few commercial 'hand made brick oven baked rustic sourdough'
breads I've bought over the years.

There's nothing wrong with my sense of taste or smell, I can detect very
faint aromas from other sources.

Is the sour aroma and flavour over-stated?

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:
> [..]
>
> Is the sour aroma and flavour over-stated?
>
No, it's a fact. Good bread smell and taste without sourness comes from
bread crust.
> My started was made by me and lives in my fridge, covered by a fine net

I would not do that - a good fridge has spores and molds which handle
the cold environment and grow there.
You sure don't want those to grow in your starter.

Sourdough starters are anaerobic and don't need oxygen to grow.

A functional starter has a sour smell and taste after growing a while
(couple of hours outside the fridge), less so with more refined flours,
but nevertheless.

Strong sourness in bread is not always desired by everyone and there is
the elusive hunt for the holey grail in good sourdough taste.

Sam

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 06:53:45 -0600, Sam
> wrote:

>Good bread smell and taste without sourness comes from
>bread crust.

Hi Sam,

Could you say something more about that? I don't get what
you mean.

Many thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 06:53:45 -0600, Sam
> > wrote:
>
>
>> Good bread smell and taste without sourness comes from
>> bread crust.
>>
>
> Hi Sam,
>
> Could you say something more about that? I don't get what
> you mean.
>
> Many thanks,
>
Crust formation has very large influence on bread taste, probably the
browning (maillard/caramelization).

So - crust can be made with plain yeast driven bread without souring and
with that, non-sour bread can have good taste from good crust.

With that, perceived good bread taste is not necessarily connected with
functional sourdough which was Mary's mixup - good taste = sourdough
working, but no sourness.

Does it make more sense now?


Sam

"Sam" > wrote in message
news:mailman.14.1223477220.3240.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Kenneth wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 06:53:45 -0600, Sam
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Good bread smell and taste without sourness comes from bread crust.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Sam,
>>
>> Could you say something more about that? I don't get what
>> you mean.
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
> Crust formation has very large influence on bread taste, probably the
> browning (maillard/caramelization).
>
> So - crust can be made with plain yeast driven bread without souring and
> with that, non-sour bread can have good taste from good crust.
>
> With that, perceived good bread taste is not necessarily connected with
> functional sourdough which was Mary's mixup - good taste = sourdough
> working, but no sourness.
>
> Does it make more sense now?

No. Nor does your comment about Mary's mixup.
>

On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:46:59 -0600, Sam
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Oct 2008 06:53:45 -0600, Sam
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Good bread smell and taste without sourness comes from
>>> bread crust.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Sam,
>>
>> Could you say something more about that? I don't get what
>> you mean.
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>Crust formation has very large influence on bread taste, probably the
>browning (maillard/caramelization).
>
>So - crust can be made with plain yeast driven bread without souring and
>with that, non-sour bread can have good taste from good crust.
>
>With that, perceived good bread taste is not necessarily connected with
>functional sourdough which was Mary's mixup - good taste = sourdough
>working, but no sourness.
>
>Does it make more sense now?
>
>
>Sam
>

Hi again,

Well, crust taste is certainly significant as you say, but a
well made bread (whether SD, or commercial yeast risen) also
has a flavorful crumb.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Mary Fisher wrote:
> [..]
> No. Nor does your comment about Mary's mixup.
>
Well, maybe you may want to give more information of what you are doing.

Having a self-made starter with fine net in a fridge making lacking -
maybe - sourness is pretty thin on information what is going on.

Sourdough driven bread can be made from non-sour, light sour, very sour,
over-sour.
Same goes for "taste" - or "tang" - very light to strong.
Crumb structure goes from very light or large holes to very dense, small
holes and heavy.
Flours used go from ....

etc...

all are valid breads where the only criteria is that someone likes it,
then it's "good bread".

It depends what you want. Apparently you desire more sourness in your
products which is a possibility with sourdough.

To answer your question direct:
> Is the sour aroma and flavour over-stated?
>
Both are valid factors and criteria for many folks baking sourdough
breads to get something better than store-bought.

Sam

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hi again,
>
> Well, crust taste is certainly significant as you say, but a
> well made bread (whether SD, or commercial yeast risen) also
> has a flavorful crumb.

Mine certainly does.

This morning's SD dough didn't look much but I had to get it into the oven
because I had an American coming for lunch.

The oven spring was amazing, there were some very big holes in the crumb.

Still, she was impressed, by the look, the flavour and the texture. Says she
hasn't had anything as good as that in years, since she left NY in fact.

I don't know if that's a Good Thing or not :-)

Mary.

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:54:10 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
> wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>> Hi again,
>>
>> Well, crust taste is certainly significant as you say, but a
>> well made bread (whether SD, or commercial yeast risen) also
>> has a flavorful crumb.
>
>Mine certainly does.
>
>This morning's SD dough didn't look much but I had to get it into the oven
>because I had an American coming for lunch.
>

Hi Mary,

Well, we Americans can be delicious... and with some good
bread, well, it just doesn't get any better. <g>

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:54:10 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
. ..
>>>
>>> Hi again,
>>>
>>> Well, crust taste is certainly significant as you say, but a
>>> well made bread (whether SD, or commercial yeast risen) also
>>> has a flavorful crumb.
>>
>>Mine certainly does.
>>
>>This morning's SD dough didn't look much but I had to get it into the oven
>>because I had an American coming for lunch.
>>
>
> Hi Mary,
>
> Well, we Americans can be delicious... and with some good
> bread, well, it just doesn't get any better. <g>

She didn't realise she was going to be the main course :-)

Even after my urging her to stuff herself with more herb soup ...

Mary
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Mary Fisher wrote:
>
> There's nothing wrong with my sense of taste or smell, I can detect very
> faint aromas from other sources.
>
> Is the sour aroma and flavour over-stated?
>
> Mary
>
>

Mine has a distinct sour smell, something like warm stale beer almost.
When it gets old from a bunch of long feedings without a complete
refresh, it is almost sour enough to make your eyes water. At that
point, I refresh it because 'too' sour makes for heavy bread in my case.

I get the starter sour by doing 12-18 hour grows on the counter, but
think the better, well a different sour comes from a long rise time.

I find the long grow sour starter makes heavier bread than the sour in
the long rise method.

I can get this long rise time and nice soft airy bread by taking a small
amount of starter and giving it lots of food vs growing a preferment or
growing the bread in stages and using a couple cups of starter and
therefore less food for the same loaf.

Dick gave me this method's basics and it works well for a fluffy airy loaf.

I made bread yesterday and my starter from the fridge was really odorous
so I took it all out, cleaned the container and used a tbsp full to grow
a fresh batch for the fridge the night before. My new batch was nice
and lively come morning.

My two loaves turned out really nice and 'sour'. One was 50/50 by
volume dark rye and white all purpose flours and the other was plain
white. I refreshed my starter and got it lively first the night before,
then used 1 tbsp of starter for each loaf.

These both got mixed with only flour salt and water and got a 2 hour
rest, then a series of stretches and folds, then loafed and let to grow
for another 6 1/2 hours before baking from a cold oven.

I was really happy with the results, especially the nice dark airy rye.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...uff/airySD.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ff/airySD1.jpg

Mike

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
g.com...
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>>
>> There's nothing wrong with my sense of taste or smell, I can detect very
>> faint aromas from other sources.
>>
>> Is the sour aroma and flavour over-stated?
>>
>> Mary
>>
>>
>
> Mine has a distinct sour smell, something like warm stale beer almost.
> When it gets old from a bunch of long feedings without a complete
> refresh, it is almost sour enough to make your eyes water. At that
> point, I refresh it because 'too' sour makes for heavy bread in my case.
>
> I get the starter sour by doing 12-18 hour grows on the counter, but
> think the better, well a different sour comes from a long rise time.
>
> I find the long grow sour starter makes heavier bread than the sour in
> the long rise method.
>
> I can get this long rise time and nice soft airy bread by taking a small
> amount of starter and giving it lots of food vs growing a preferment or
> growing the bread in stages and using a couple cups of starter and
> therefore less food for the same loaf.
>
> Dick gave me this method's basics and it works well for a fluffy airy
> loaf.
>
> I made bread yesterday and my starter from the fridge was really odorous
> so I took it all out, cleaned the container and used a tbsp full to grow
> a fresh batch for the fridge the night before. My new batch was nice
> and lively come morning.
>
> My two loaves turned out really nice and 'sour'. One was 50/50 by
> volume dark rye and white all purpose flours and the other was plain
> white. I refreshed my starter and got it lively first the night before,
> then used 1 tbsp of starter for each loaf.
>
> These both got mixed with only flour salt and water and got a 2 hour
> rest, then a series of stretches and folds, then loafed and let to grow
> for another 6 1/2 hours before baking from a cold oven.
>
> I was really happy with the results, especially the nice dark airy rye.


Thanks for all that, Mike, it's very helpful and interesting. My all white
(but very strong flour) bread yesterday had very large holes despite looking
unpromising when I put it into the oven. My friend said it was excellent and
recognised it as SD so perhaps I'm too used to it!

I think I'll try using rye when we've used all this. To date I've only used
rye in the starter.

I'm surprised that you say you used a cold oven, I thought that went against
all the rules, can you say more about it?

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:

>
> I'm surprised that you say you used a cold oven, I thought that went against
> all the rules, can you say more about it?
>
> Mary
>

I am still experimenting with oven temps and methods. I have even used
a gas BBQ with good success. When I used a heavy bottomed container or
a stone for baking, I have been trying the cold oven method that some
folks seem to prefer, vs the shock method of a hot oven. My baking
stone even shattered from putting it into a pre-heated oven with a round
loaf on it for some reason.

If I use a tin bread mold or cookie sheet, I have better results with a
hot oven I think because the warm up tends to burn or scorch the
bottoms. I also use a hot oven for conventional commercial yeast bread.

I used glass Pyrex containers for these loaves and started them in a
cold oven set for 400F. My oven doesn't do well over 400-425, it burns
the bottoms. The elements aren't even.

I got about an inch of oven bounce even after 8 hours total of rising
this way with a nice evenly brown crust.

Today I am making baguettes to go along with some beef neck bones and
veggies I have been cooking into a broth since yesterday to make French
onion soup with and to cook down for bullion 'cubes'. (I cook a whole
stew pot of nice garlicky broth down to fit into 4 ice cube trays and
freeze them to have homemade beef or chicken bullion 'cubes' around.)

I want to try the cold oven shot with these too and think I will double
up on the cookie sheet for a heavier bottomed pan.

I will post some photos when I am finished.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:34:11 -0400, Mike Romain
> wrote:

>My baking
>stone even shattered from putting it into a pre-heated oven with a round
>loaf on it for some reason.

Hi Mike,

The intent of a baking stone is to allow the (relatively)
cold dough to be put on a very hot massive surface.

So typically, the stone is left in the hot oven, and then
the dough is put on the hot stone.

Now, all that said, the sort of baking stones that are sold
by many cooking suppliers are, in fact, not massive enough
to do much good.

Years ago, I bought a slab of soapstone that weighed on the
order of 90 pounds.

That helped me to produce much better crusts than I was able
to get prior to its use.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Sam" > wrote in message
news:mailman.13.1223470428.3240.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>> [..]
>>
>> Is the sour aroma and flavour over-stated?
>>
> No, it's a fact. Good bread smell and taste without sourness comes from
> bread crust.
>> My started was made by me and lives in my fridge, covered by a fine net
>
> I would not do that - a good fridge has spores and molds which handle the
> cold environment and grow there.
> You sure don't want those to grow in your starter.

The same spores and moulds are in every domestic atmosphere. It's impossible
to escape them.
>
> Sourdough starters are anaerobic and don't need oxygen to grow.

And your point is?
>
Mary

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:57:32 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
> wrote:

>
>"Sam" > wrote in message
>news:mailman.13.1223470428.3240.rec.food.sourdoug ...
>> Mary Fisher wrote:
>>> [..]
>>>
>>> Is the sour aroma and flavour over-stated?
>>>
>> No, it's a fact. Good bread smell and taste without sourness comes from
>> bread crust.
>>> My started was made by me and lives in my fridge, covered by a fine net
>>
>> I would not do that - a good fridge has spores and molds which handle the
>> cold environment and grow there.
>> You sure don't want those to grow in your starter.
>
>The same spores and moulds are in every domestic atmosphere. It's impossible
>to escape them.
>>
>> Sourdough starters are anaerobic and don't need oxygen to grow.
>
>And your point is?
>>
>Mary
>

Hi Mary,

Sam will likely respond for himself, but here is my
understanding of the intent of his comment...

All sorts of critters live, and multiply, in a refrigerator
even if it is kept immaculately clean.

Those can easily contaminate a sourdough culture.

A sourdough culture does not need any oxygen, and so can
safely be stored in a sealed container in the refrigerator.
Sealing the container has the added of very significantly
decreasing the likelihood of contamination.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hi Mary,
>
> Sam will likely respond for himself, but here is my
> understanding of the intent of his comment...
>
> All sorts of critters live, and multiply, in a refrigerator
> even if it is kept immaculately clean.

They are also living in the atmosphere outside the fridge.
>
> Those can easily contaminate a sourdough culture.
>
> A sourdough culture does not need any oxygen, and so can
> safely be stored in a sealed container in the refrigerator.
> Sealing the container has the added of very significantly
> decreasing the likelihood of contamination.

It's impossible to seal anything 100%. How do you suggest doing it?

Decreasing the likelihood of contamination isn't ensuring it.

Also, there are two opportunities for contamination:

1) every time the starter is unsealed for 'feeding'

2) when the initial sponge is made.

Those actions are not done in sealed, sterile conditions.

Mary

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
g.com...
> Mary Fisher wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm surprised that you say you used a cold oven, I thought that went
>> against
>> all the rules, can you say more about it?
>>
>> Mary
>>
>
> I am still experimenting with oven temps and methods. I have even used
> a gas BBQ with good success.

So have I - it's the only way I can bake anything when we're in our little
caravan in wet and windy Wales!

> When I used a heavy bottomed container or
> a stone for baking,

My gas BBQ has two heat sources. I heat the whole thing for twenty minutes
then close off one and put the dough, in its tin, on the other side of the
BBQ. I have to turn it occasionally to avoid a black side but I'm getting
better at it :-)

....
>
> I used glass Pyrex containers for these loaves and started them in a
> cold oven set for 400F.

I'll try that, thanks for the tip.

>
> I got about an inch of oven bounce even after 8 hours total of rising
> this way with a nice evenly brown crust.
>
> Today I am making baguettes to go along with some beef neck bones and
> veggies I have been cooking into a broth since yesterday to make French
> onion soup with and to cook down for bullion 'cubes'. (I cook a whole
> stew pot of nice garlicky broth down to fit into 4 ice cube trays and
> freeze them to have homemade beef or chicken bullion 'cubes' around.)

Is it too late to call round?

> I will post some photos when I am finished.

Please do.

Mary

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:37:12 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
> wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>> Hi Mary,
>>
>> Sam will likely respond for himself, but here is my
>> understanding of the intent of his comment...
>>
>> All sorts of critters live, and multiply, in a refrigerator
>> even if it is kept immaculately clean.
>
>They are also living in the atmosphere outside the fridge.
>>
>> Those can easily contaminate a sourdough culture.
>>
>> A sourdough culture does not need any oxygen, and so can
>> safely be stored in a sealed container in the refrigerator.
>> Sealing the container has the added of very significantly
>> decreasing the likelihood of contamination.
>
>It's impossible to seal anything 100%. How do you suggest doing it?
>
>Decreasing the likelihood of contamination isn't ensuring it.
>
>Also, there are two opportunities for contamination:
>
>1) every time the starter is unsealed for 'feeding'
>
>2) when the initial sponge is made.
>
>Those actions are not done in sealed, sterile conditions.
>
>Mary
>

Hi Mary,

There are very important distinctions between the desire to
inform, and the desire to convince.

Please store your starter in any way you wish, and continue
to enjoy it.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> Hi Mary,
>
> There are very important distinctions between the desire to
> inform, and the desire to convince.
>
> Please store your starter in any way you wish, and continue
> to enjoy it.
>
> All the best,
>
Kenneth, thanks for clarifying this situation.

There is this phrase, which goes something like: "It cannot be what
should not be".
Seems to be going rampant these days.

And in this case - just let it be.
Not sure if that makes any sense either ;-)

Sam

Mary Fisher wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> g.com...
>> Mary Fisher wrote:
>>
>>> I'm surprised that you say you used a cold oven, I thought that went
>>> against
>>> all the rules, can you say more about it?
>>>

Yes. The cold oven start made for a real crispy crust that stayed
crispy for a long time with a nice soft crumb.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stickstart.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ickfinish1.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stickcrumb.jpg

The bread got woofed down so I had to make more for the French onion soup.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n.../onionsoup.jpg

The next loaves I made the same except I use a hot, 400F oven to start
and they turned out with a soft chewy crust and the same nice soft crumb.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n.../softstick.jpg

Mike






>> Mary
>>>
>> I am still experimenting with oven temps and methods. I have even used
>> a gas BBQ with good success.
>
> So have I - it's the only way I can bake anything when we're in our little
> caravan in wet and windy Wales!
>
>> When I used a heavy bottomed container or
>> a stone for baking,
>
> My gas BBQ has two heat sources. I heat the whole thing for twenty minutes
> then close off one and put the dough, in its tin, on the other side of the
> BBQ. I have to turn it occasionally to avoid a black side but I'm getting
> better at it :-)
>
> ...
>> I used glass Pyrex containers for these loaves and started them in a
>> cold oven set for 400F.
>
> I'll try that, thanks for the tip.
>
>> I got about an inch of oven bounce even after 8 hours total of rising
>> this way with a nice evenly brown crust.
>>
>> Today I am making baguettes to go along with some beef neck bones and
>> veggies I have been cooking into a broth since yesterday to make French
>> onion soup with and to cook down for bullion 'cubes'. (I cook a whole
>> stew pot of nice garlicky broth down to fit into 4 ice cube trays and
>> freeze them to have homemade beef or chicken bullion 'cubes' around.)
>
> Is it too late to call round?
>
>> I will post some photos when I am finished.
>
> Please do.
>
> Mary
>
>