On 5 Dec 2003 15:19:10 -0800, (Phil) wrote:

>I'm wondering...I recently posted about how a baker gave me a chunk of
>his "chef" (doughy starter). Would it be possibe for me to take a cup
>of the chef, let it warm up (I keep it in the fridge), and then simply
>mix it with flour, water, and salt and bake with it? I know the
>process would involve a lot of trial and error as to the amounts
>used/hydration--but i'm willing to experiment. Then, could I just
>replenish the chef by feeding it with flour/water in equal parts?

Hi Phil,

You have described the traditional technique...

It would not involve lots of trial and error though. Just measure what
you put in, getting the dough to a texture you are happy with. Keep a
record of those amounts, then bake. Review the results and in case you
need any tweaking, you will know where you started.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

I'm wondering...I recently posted about how a baker gave me a chunk of
his "chef" (doughy starter). Would it be possibe for me to take a cup
of the chef, let it warm up (I keep it in the fridge), and then simply
mix it with flour, water, and salt and bake with it? I know the
process would involve a lot of trial and error as to the amounts
used/hydration--but i'm willing to experiment. Then, could I just
replenish the chef by feeding it with flour/water in equal parts?

Phil wrote:
>
> I'm wondering...Would it be possibe for me to take a cup
> of the chef, ... and then simply
> mix it with flour, water, and salt and bake with it?

I get the sense that you wish to treat the "chef" as if it were a
cake of bakers yeast.
I surely don't like to complicate things, but it is a bit more
involved than that.

I think Kenneth gave you a good answer, but I will expand it a
bit. Many who use a firm starter use an intermediate stage to
build from the chef to a starter for the dough. When that is not
done, as in the old dough hold back process, the innoculation of
the dough is at a higher percentage in the 20 to 30 percent
range. Your suggested use of one cup of "chef" would be enough
for one loaf. I suspect you would be happier with an
intermediate stage process. If, for nothing else, to get the
start to an active state.

Until you can get to a library, go here to read about how one
person deals with firm start:
http://www.outlawcook.com/Page12.html


> .... Then, could I just
> replenish the chef by feeding it with flour/water in equal parts?

You could, but equal parts of water and flour either by weight or
by volume will get you a liquid starter. You will need to stir
in "enough" extra flour to get the texture you want.

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On 5 Dec 2003 15:19:10 -0800, (Phil) wrote:

> > ... could I just replenish the chef by feeding it with flour/water
> > in equal parts?

> It would not involve lots of trial and error though. Just measure what
> you put in, getting the dough to a texture you are happy with. Keep a
> record of those amounts, then bake. Review the results and in case you
> need any tweaking, you will know where you started.

For small amounts, you should weigh to 0.1 gram, so you'll need a
pretty good scale/balance. Hans is working on a PDA application that
may prove useful and Luke will hopefully be around to help you systematize
your review with appropriate mathematical analysis. Don't forget to
record the humidity and temperature, and the moisture content of the
flour you use. What is your altitude? Do you have a way to measure
the atmospheric pressure?

In the meantime, just for laughs, you might designate a jelly-bean sized
chunk of your doughball as a "dried sourdough start", and do with it the
"Carlos" thing <http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/revive.txt>. (No need
however for drying it first, but do squash it up.) Refrigerate the rest and
you will still have your "chef" which is a noble artifact which distinctively
conveys the prestige and dignity of the french culinary culture.


--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

On 6 Dec 2003 15:25:00 -0800, (Phil) wrote:

>When you are doing hydration calculations, do you also account for the
>water/flour present in the starter?

Howdy,

Yes.

But remember that this hydration thing is not magic. It is just a way
to conveniently keep track of what you put in the loaf.

It is always frustrating to pull a loaf of bread from the oven, have
it look and taste wonderful, only then to find that you cannot
duplicate it...

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

(Phil) wrote in message . com>...
> I'm wondering...I recently posted about how a baker gave me a chunk of
> his "chef" (doughy starter). Would it be possibe for me to take a cup
> of the chef, let it warm up (I keep it in the fridge), and then simply
> mix it with flour, water, and salt and bake with it? I know the
> process would involve a lot of trial and error as to the amounts
> used/hydration--but i'm willing to experiment. Then, could I just
> replenish the chef by feeding it with flour/water in equal parts?

Well, I've decided not to use the chef and have succeded in making a
starter out of the "chef" (at least I think I've suceeded). I took
about a generous teaspoon of the chef a few days ago and mixed it with
..25 cup of flour and .25 cup water, so that the consistency was (is)
about like pancake batter. I covered it and let it sit on top of the
fridge and low and behold today it was all bubbly and smelled a lot
like the chef!! Woo-hoo! So, I mixed another quarter cup of flour and
water.

Questions though:

When you are doing hydration calculations, do you also account for the
water/flour present in the starter? It seems that a lot of recipes
given for sourdough white loaf (given in bakers percentages) seem to
neglect the hydration of the starter, and just call for a certain
weight of it.

Doesn't this have a large impact on the overall hydration?

"Phil" > wrote in message
m...
> (Phil) wrote in message
. com>...

> Questions though:
>
> When you are doing hydration calculations, do you also account for the
> water/flour present in the starter? It seems that a lot of recipes
> given for sourdough white loaf (given in bakers percentages) seem to
> neglect the hydration of the starter, and just call for a certain
> weight of it.
>
> Doesn't this have a large impact on the overall hydration?

You are making it too difficult. If you are fortunate enough to be using a
recipe that calls for starter by weight, they generally give you a clue as
to whether you are using a firm starter or a wet starter. Even further, it
probably says something like pancake-like consistency. Weight either form
according to directions. You should realize that among flour brands, flour
types, and types within brands there is an enormous variance in the amount
of water each flour will absorb. Truly. This will have far more impact on
the way you dough works up than the itty bitty difference you may have
between your wet starter and the one cited in the recipe. If you would take
10 white flour samples of bread flour and all purpose flour of different
brands and mix equal weight of water and flour for all ten you will most
likely have consistencies varying from soupy to cement like. Higher protein
flour will absorb more water than low protein(bread flour will absorb more
water than all purpose.) But you will find differences from brand to brand.
You will even find a difference between the bag of Brand X you just finished
and the new bag of Brand X you just purchased. This has to do with
formulation as well as crop mixtures. I was a non-believer until I
performed this experiment. Others here have done this as well.

Relax and make bread. Get to know how to prepare dough correctly. An
important thing to remember is not to add more flour immediately if the
mixture in the bowl seems pretty wet right after you have added all the
ingredients. The flour needs time to fully absorb the moisture. Work the
mixture with your machine for 6-8 minutes before considering adding more
flour. You want a tacky, soft dough. If you aren't sure whether you should
add flour or not, throw a cloth over the mixer and go away for 20 minutes or
so and see what the dough is like when you come back. Turn the mixer back
on and I bet the dough will pull together just fine.

Janet

Phil wrote:
>
> (Phil) wrote in message . com>...
> > I'm wondering...I recently posted about how a baker gave me a chunk of
> > his "chef" (doughy starter). Would it be possibe for me to take a cup
> > of the chef, let it warm up (I keep it in the fridge), and then simply
> > mix it with flour, water, and salt and bake with it? I know the
> > process would involve a lot of trial and error as to the amounts
> > used/hydration--but i'm willing to experiment. Then, could I just
> > replenish the chef by feeding it with flour/water in equal parts?
>
> Well, I've decided not to use the chef and have succeded in making a
> starter out of the "chef" (at least I think I've suceeded). I took
> about a generous teaspoon of the chef a few days ago and mixed it with
> .25 cup of flour and .25 cup water, so that the consistency was (is)
> about like pancake batter. I covered it and let it sit on top of the
> fridge and low and behold today it was all bubbly and smelled a lot
> like the chef!! Woo-hoo! So, I mixed another quarter cup of flour and
> water.
>
> Questions though:
>
> When you are doing hydration calculations, do you also account for the
> water/flour present in the starter? It seems that a lot of recipes
> given for sourdough white loaf (given in bakers percentages) seem to
> neglect the hydration of the starter, and just call for a certain
> weight of it.
>
> Doesn't this have a large impact on the overall hydration?

Yes, it does. Unless you are using a starter with exactly the same hydration
as you dough you have to make an allowance for both the water and the flour in
the starter. EG: my starter is kept at a 1.5:1 flour:water ratio. The dough I
make is approximately a 3:1 flour to water ratio. If I add a cup of starter
then there is an excess of water coming from the starter.

The above is usually taken care of in the recipe. If I give you a recipe and
it calls for one cup starter, three cups of flour, one cup of water and
whatever salt you use they I may already have made allowance for the starter
water and flour. That does not mean the water and flour in the starter are
ignored, just that they are already taken care of in the recipe.

If I want to modify the above recipe to use say one quarter cup of starter
then, to get the same type of flour with the same hydration, I have to make
allowance for the reduced flour and water in the starter.

Why would I make the change to 1/4 cup of starter? Reducing the amount of
starter prolongs the fermentation time and therefore affects the sourness of
the resulting bread. The less starter you use the sourer the bread will be.
The more starter you use the milder the bread will be.

I can give a recipe for dough that calls for no water, relying on the starter
water only. For my 1.5:1 flour to water starter it would be approximately
1-3/4 cups of starter, 2 cups of flour, salt, _NO WATER_.

The figures above are off the top of my head, don't rely on them for making
dough.

The only time you don't need to take the water and flour into account is when
you are using a piece of dough from a previous dough preparation. This is
already at the same hydration.

Does this make sense?

Bert

> wrote in message
...

> > [ ... ] ( full requote of
om>
to the second level ( > > ))

> [ ... ]

> The less starter you use the sourer the bread will be.
> The more starter you use the milder the bread will be.

What Old Wife told you that?

> ... The figures above are off the top of my head ...

It is a usual condition for figures, and almost everything else
around here..

> ... Does this make sense?

Nah, but who cares?

---
DickA

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 17:39:35 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>> The less starter you use the sourer the bread will be.
>> The more starter you use the milder the bread will be.

>What Old Wife told you that?

I made sourdough using 2 cups of stater (containing 1 1/2 cups flour,
1 1/2 cups of water) and it took just as long to rise and tasted just
as sour as bread made with 1/2 cup of starter.

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > > [ ... ] ( full requote of
> om>
> to the second level ( > > ))
>
> > [ ... ]
>
> > The less starter you use the sourer the bread will be.
> > The more starter you use the milder the bread will be.
>
> What Old Wife told you that?
>
> > ... The figures above are off the top of my head ...
>
> It is a usual condition for figures, and almost everything else
> around here..
>
> > ... Does this make sense?
>
> Nah, but who cares?
>
> ---
> DickA

The instruction booklet that came with the SF starter from SDI. It works, I
have tested it.

<start of quote>
"There is another way which involves reducing the amount of culture in the
recipe, A small amount will produce a long slow period of leavening and sour
bread, a large amount a short fast leavening and mild bread."
<end of quote>

Page 4, Original San Francisco Sourdough Culture Instructions // SDI // By Ed
Wood.

Maybe you should try it instead of shooting your mouth off.

Very sour sourdough

1/2 cup culture 4.7 ounces
9.1 cups flour 38.2 ounces
2.6 cups water 21.1 ounces
1 tsp salt

Proof at 85 degrees for two hours or until loaves double in size.


Mild sourdough
4 cups culture 37.2 ounces
5-3/4 cups flour 23.9 ounces
1/2 cup water 2.9 ounces
1 tsp salt

Proof at 85 degrees for 7 hours or until loaves double in size.

Both recipes will give you 64 ounces of dough.

Note that both recipes are for a starter with a 1.5:1 flour to water ratio.

All weights are avoirdupois.

Bert

> in message
said to me

> [ ... ]

> Maybe you should try it instead of shooting your mouth off.
>
> Page 4, Original San Francisco Sourdough Culture Instructions
> // SDI // By Ed Wood.
>
> Very sour sourdough
>
> 1/2 cup culture 4.7 ounces
> 9.1 cups flour 38.2 ounces
> 2.6 cups water 21.1 ounces
> 1 tsp salt
>
> Proof at 85 degrees for two hours or until loaves double in size.
>
>
> Mild sourdough
>
> 4 cups culture 37.2 ounces
> 5-3/4 cups flour 23.9 ounces
> 1/2 cup water 2.9 ounces
> 1 tsp salt
>
> Proof at 85 degrees for 7 hours or until loaves double in size.


That makes no sense. It seems the longer-fermented from the
larger inoculation is supposed to be milder, according to what
you presented..

Does that make sense to you, Bert? Anybody?

My practice is to build the culture through several stages from a
jelly-bean-sized lump to a sponge. When that has expanded
sufficiently, the dough is made by adding the rest of the flour
and kneading. My experience is that the sourness attained
depends upon the duration and temperature of dough incubation.
Temperature constant, the sourer bread comes from a longer
incubation.

The qualities of the bread, it seems to me, depend on a lot more
that a list of ingredients and an incubation interval. As far as
doubling is concerned, I do not know how it could be assumed
that it would occur in 7 hours in one case and 2 in the other.
Anyway, I would expect the dough with the larger inoculation
(of starter) to double the fastest, which your transcription does
not reflect..

As far as shooting my mouth off, I simply asked you which Old
Wife told you that tale. So you said Ed Wood. But the Tale may
indeed be due to Ed Wood's Old Wife, as it is likely that it is she
nowadays who generates the literature that goes out with the
starts. Mrs. Wood and I have never seen eye to eye.

--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

On 9 Dec 2003 at 4:46, Dick Adams wrote:

> > Page 4, Original San Francisco Sourdough Culture Instructions
> > // SDI // By Ed Wood.

> > Very sour sourdough

> > 1/2 cup culture 4.7 ounces
> > 9.1 cups flour 38.2 ounces
> > 2.6 cups water 21.1 ounces
> > 1 tsp salt

> > Proof at 85 degrees for two hours or until loaves double in size.

If memory serves, that's a typo. I believe he suggests a 16 hour rise
here.

> > Mild sourdough
> >
> > 4 cups culture 37.2 ounces
> > 5-3/4 cups flour 23.9 ounces
> > 1/2 cup water 2.9 ounces
> > 1 tsp salt

> > Proof at 85 degrees for 7 hours or until loaves double in size.

> That makes no sense. It seems the longer-fermented from the
> larger inoculation is supposed to be milder, according to what
> you presented..

> Does that make sense to you, Bert? Anybody?

I'm pretty sure it's a typo.... and typos don't have to make sense.

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Some people wouldn't be happy if you hung them with a new rope. .
..

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> > in message
> said to me
>
> > [ ... ]
>
> > Maybe you should try it instead of shooting your mouth off.
> >
> > Page 4, Original San Francisco Sourdough Culture Instructions
> > // SDI // By Ed Wood.
> >
> > Very sour sourdough
> >
> > 1/2 cup culture 4.7 ounces
> > 9.1 cups flour 38.2 ounces
> > 2.6 cups water 21.1 ounces
> > 1 tsp salt
> >
> > Proof at 85 degrees for two hours or until loaves double in size.
> >
> >
> > Mild sourdough
> >
> > 4 cups culture 37.2 ounces
> > 5-3/4 cups flour 23.9 ounces
> > 1/2 cup water 2.9 ounces
> > 1 tsp salt
> >
> > Proof at 85 degrees for 7 hours or until loaves double in size.
>
> That makes no sense. It seems the longer-fermented from the
> larger inoculation is supposed to be milder, according to what
> you presented..
>
> Does that make sense to you, Bert? Anybody?
>

No, it does not. I typed that as an afterthought and transposed them. As you
say, the larger inoculation needs the longer proofing.

Bert

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> > in message
> said to me
>
> > [ ... ]
>
> > Maybe you should try it instead of shooting your mouth off.
> >
> > Page 4, Original San Francisco Sourdough Culture Instructions
> > // SDI // By Ed Wood.
> >
> > Very sour sourdough
> >
> > 1/2 cup culture 4.7 ounces
> > 9.1 cups flour 38.2 ounces
> > 2.6 cups water 21.1 ounces
> > 1 tsp salt
> >
> > Proof at 85 degrees for two hours or until loaves double in size.
> >
> >
> > Mild sourdough
> >
> > 4 cups culture 37.2 ounces
> > 5-3/4 cups flour 23.9 ounces
> > 1/2 cup water 2.9 ounces
> > 1 tsp salt
> >
> > Proof at 85 degrees for 7 hours or until loaves double in size.
>
> That makes no sense. It seems the longer-fermented from the
> larger inoculation is supposed to be milder, according to what
> you presented..
>
> Does that make sense to you, Bert? Anybody?
>
> My practice is to build the culture through several stages from a
> jelly-bean-sized lump to a sponge. When that has expanded
> sufficiently, the dough is made by adding the rest of the flour
> and kneading. My experience is that the sourness attained
> depends upon the duration and temperature of dough incubation.
> Temperature constant, the sourer bread comes from a longer
> incubation.
>
> The qualities of the bread, it seems to me, depend on a lot more
> that a list of ingredients and an incubation interval. As far as
> doubling is concerned, I do not know how it could be assumed
> that it would occur in 7 hours in one case and 2 in the other.

You are obviously ignoring the "... or until loaves double in size" part.

> Anyway, I would expect the dough with the larger inoculation
> (of starter) to double the fastest, which your transcription does
> not reflect..

And you love the fact that I obviously transposed the two times. It gives you
the opportunity to give a long argument.

But it is interesting that you accepted my original statement that varying the
amount of starter gives a different amount of sourness.

Since you have agreed with my original post perhaps you can explain why you
objected to it. You were shooting your mouth off.

> As far as shooting my mouth off, I simply asked you which Old
> Wife told you that tale. So you said Ed Wood. But the Tale may
> indeed be due to Ed Wood's Old Wife, as it is likely that it is she
> nowadays who generates the literature that goes out with the
> starts. Mrs. Wood and I have never seen eye to eye.

You called my posting an old wive's tale. Now you are retracting your
statement. Don't hide yourself around the origin of the statement. You
challenged my posting and now agree with it. Thank you.

Bert

Mike Avery wrote:
>
> On 9 Dec 2003 at 4:46, Dick Adams wrote:
>
> > > Page 4, Original San Francisco Sourdough Culture Instructions
> > > // SDI // By Ed Wood.
>
> > > Very sour sourdough
>
> > > 1/2 cup culture 4.7 ounces
> > > 9.1 cups flour 38.2 ounces
> > > 2.6 cups water 21.1 ounces
> > > 1 tsp salt
>
> > > Proof at 85 degrees for two hours or until loaves double in size.
>
> If memory serves, that's a typo. I believe he suggests a 16 hour rise
> here.
>
> > > Mild sourdough
> > >
> > > 4 cups culture 37.2 ounces
> > > 5-3/4 cups flour 23.9 ounces
> > > 1/2 cup water 2.9 ounces
> > > 1 tsp salt
>
> > > Proof at 85 degrees for 7 hours or until loaves double in size.
>
> > That makes no sense. It seems the longer-fermented from the
> > larger inoculation is supposed to be milder, according to what
> > you presented..
>
> > Does that make sense to you, Bert? Anybody?
>
> I'm pretty sure it's a typo.... and typos don't have to make sense.
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Avery
>
> ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
> Phone: 970-642-0280
> * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
> way *
>
> A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
> Some people wouldn't be happy if you hung them with a new rope. .
> .

Yes the two lines were transposed. They were added after the lists of
ingredients were entered. But he did agree that changing the amounts of
starter does change the sourness which was what he had called "an old wive's
tale".

I am looking at the booklet now. It calls for two hours rise for the 4 cup
recipe and seven hours for the 1/2 cup recipe.

Bert

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 04:46:06 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>My experience is that the sourness attained
>depends upon the duration and temperature of dough incubation.
>Temperature constant, the sourer bread comes from a longer
>incubation.

Does that include resting the sponge or the dough in a refrigerator
for several days? The yeast is dormant at the lower temperatures, but
is the lactobacillus dormant too?

It has been my experience, admittedly limited, that I can get a bread
that has a sourer taste if I rest the sponge for 3 days in the
refrigerator after its final blowoff fermentation. This is mandatory
for a poolish sponge made from commercial yeast.

However if I omit the 3-day refrigerator rest, the bread still has an
adequate sour taste, presumably from the 6 hour final rise. So
recently I have skipped the 3 day rest.

I have seen any number of articles which claim that the longer your
starter has been around (in the refrigerator) - like several months -
the sourer your bread will be. Of course, those articles could be
wrong, as so many are.

>As far as
>doubling is concerned, I do not know how it could be assumed
>that it would occur in 7 hours in one case and 2 in the other.

I have never been able to achieve a 2-hour doubling using natural
sourdough starter - and I have used starter amounts nearly equal to
the dough. For example, that recipe I just posted on my show-and-tell
website, with the picture you have craved all these months, is one
where I used 1 1/2 cups of starter flour and 2 cups of dough flour. It
took a good 6 hours to double at 80F.

Doesn't hydration play some kind of role in rise times? All my doughs
of late have been very slack, and all of them take at least 6 hours to
double.

>Anyway, I would expect the dough with the larger inoculation
>(of starter) to double the fastest, which your transcription does
>not reflect..

I have made large doughs using small starter amounts and small doughs
using large starter amounts. It always takes 6 hours to double at 80F.

"Bob" > wrote in message
...

> >Temperature constant, the sourer bread comes from a longer
> >incubation.

> Does that include resting the sponge or the dough in a refrigerator
> for several days? The yeast is dormant at the lower temperatures, but
> is the lactobacillus dormant too?

I have not studied refrigerator incubation*. There is a report from the
Gaenzle organization that lactobacilli survive better than yeast at
temperatures near freezing.

> [ ... ]

> Doesn't hydration play some kind of role in rise times? All my doughs
> of late have been very slack, and all of them take at least 6 hours to
> double.

Surely does, and a list of other things, I suspect.

> I have made large doughs using small starter amounts and small doughs
> using large starter amounts. It always takes 6 hours to double at 80F.

Good to have something we can hang our hats on!

---
DickA

________________
* nor toasting marshmallows there as well

> wrote in message
...

> [ ... ]

> As you say, the larger inoculation needs the longer proofing.

Did I say that? Jeez, I must be getting crazy.

> wrote in message
...

> [ ... ]

> You challenged my posting and now agree with it.

I don't agree that I agreed.

> wrote in message
...

> [ ... ]

> But he (Adams) did agree that changing the amounts of
> starter does change the sourness

I don't think I'd want Bert for a bibliographer.

> wrote in message
...

> [ ... ] (deleted thread history to 3-levels of >>>'s)

> It may not work exactly the way I described it. And then again, it may.

Good you cleared that up for us, Bert.

* * * * *

Bert, do this for us:

Click up http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html
and study item 4., which says
"Trim irrelevant quoted text, neaten posts and replies by editing if possible."
Let us know if you are having trouble with links or with your email editor.

---
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > [ ... ]
>
> > As you say, the larger inoculation needs the longer proofing.
>
> Did I say that? Jeez, I must be getting crazy.
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > [ ... ]
>
> > You challenged my posting and now agree with it.
>
> I don't agree that I agreed.
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > [ ... ]
>
> > But he (Adams) did agree that changing the amounts of
> > starter does change the sourness
>
> I don't think I'd want Bert for a bibliographer.
>

Here is your statement:

<quote>

My practice is to build the culture through several stages from a
jelly-bean-sized lump to a sponge. When that has expanded
sufficiently, the dough is made by adding the rest of the flour
and kneading. My experience is that the sourness attained
depends upon the duration and temperature of dough incubation.
Temperature constant, the sourer bread comes from a longer
incubation.

The qualities of the bread, it seems to me, depend on a lot more
that a list of ingredients and an incubation interval. As far as
doubling is concerned, I do not know how it could be assumed
that it would occur in 7 hours in one case and 2 in the other.
Anyway, I would expect the dough with the larger inoculation
(of starter) to double the fastest, which your transcription does
not reflect..

<end of quote>

"... the sourer bread comes from a longer incubation."

"... I would expect the dough with the larger inoculation (of starter) to
double the fastest..."

Lets see what that means:

Premises:

Larger inoculation doubles faster.

Sourer bread comes from a longer incubation.

Therefo

Larger inoculation results in less sour bread.

Doesn't that agree with the statement you called old wives's tales?

Sheesh... you are grabbing at straws... give it up...

Bert

Closed mouths gather no feet

> in message
said to me:

> [ ... ]

> Sheesh... you are grabbing at straws... give it up...

OK, Bert, I give up! (Overpowered by you skillful rhetoric!)

Looks like you're a winner, there, Bert. Clearly you and "Bob"
are emerging as the King of this Hill. But, did you see that "Bob"
is already* showing evidence of something that looks almost
like bread?

How about you, Bert? Are you a baker as well as a debater?

---
DickA

*after only ~320 posts to r.f.s.

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 16:28:19 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

> "Bob" is already showing evidence of something that looks almost
>like bread?

What is it then, if not bread?

It's not rye glop cooked in a crock pot, so you have a hard time
identifying it.

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> > in message
> said to me:
>
> > [ ... ]
>
> > Sheesh... you are grabbing at straws... give it up...
>
> OK, Bert, I give up! (Overpowered by you skillful rhetoric!)
>
> Looks like you're a winner, there, Bert. Clearly you and "Bob"
> are emerging as the King of this Hill. But, did you see that "Bob"
> is already* showing evidence of something that looks almost
> like bread?
>
> How about you, Bert? Are you a baker as well as a debater?
>
> ---
> DickA
>
> *after only ~320 posts to r.f.s.

PLONK

> wrote in message
...

>
> "... the sourer bread comes from a longer incubation." (attributed to Dick
Adams)
>
> "... I would expect the dough with the larger inoculation (of starter) to
> double the fastest..."
>
> Lets see what that means:
>
> Premises:
>
> Larger inoculation doubles faster.
>
> Sourer bread comes from a longer incubation.
>
> Therefo
>
> Larger inoculation results in less sour bread.

Do you find that to be the case from experience?

This is what I've experienced...

The few times I've purposely gone after and achieved a "sour" loaf it was
through long rising/proofing/incubation/fermenting times. (I'm just gonna
call it rising from now on) So I sort of agree with the statement that
sourer bread comes from longer incubation.

On the other hand, I play around with different amounts of starter fairly
regularly. My bread, clearly takes more time to rise when I use less
starter. If, however, I use the exact same procedure I usually use
(rise/punch-down/shape/rise/bake) I don't find that there is a noticeable
difference in "sourness" when using a lesser amount of starter. This was
even the case one time when I used a ridiculously small amount of starter
and the dough took something like fifteen hours to get to the point of
baking.

So my experience isn't necessarily that more time equals more sourness.

When I've experienced more sourness is when I've caused the bread to have
more rising time through multiple punch-downs. Like I said, I've only done
this a few times, but it has been reproducible. I used my normal formula and
rather than just one punch-down I do two or three with a rise between each.
What I shoot for is getting at least a good twelve hours or more of rising
time out of the dough which would otherwise take five or six. Ultimately it
goes into the oven when the loaf looks like I want so the times are
approximate.

Recently, I inadvertently got a sour loaf after leaving some dough in the
refrigerator for a couple of days. I had put it in there for convenience
when I was doing a lot of baking around Thanksgiving. Not only was I
surprised by the sourness, the bread also came out with a very nice crumb. I
have not tried to reproduce that so I can't really comment on it in any more
detail.

So based upon my baking, I've found that time does in fact help make a bread
more sour, but not if that time is gained by decreasing the starter. So I
would not agree with your logic above.

I am far from the most knowledgeable person who reads this newsgroup and
only offer this as my experience not any statement as to how all this stuff
works.

-Mike

Mike Pearce wrote:
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > "... the sourer bread comes from a longer incubation." (attributed to Dick
> Adams)
> >
> > "... I would expect the dough with the larger inoculation (of starter) to
> > double the fastest..."
> >
> > Lets see what that means:
> >
> > Premises:
> >
> > Larger inoculation doubles faster.
> >
> > Sourer bread comes from a longer incubation.
> >
> > Therefo
> >
> > Larger inoculation results in less sour bread.
>
> Do you find that to be the case from experience?
>
> This is what I've experienced...
>
> The few times I've purposely gone after and achieved a "sour" loaf it was
> through long rising/proofing/incubation/fermenting times. (I'm just gonna
> call it rising from now on) So I sort of agree with the statement that
> sourer bread comes from longer incubation.
>
> On the other hand, I play around with different amounts of starter fairly
> regularly. My bread, clearly takes more time to rise when I use less
> starter. If, however, I use the exact same procedure I usually use
> (rise/punch-down/shape/rise/bake) I don't find that there is a noticeable
> difference in "sourness" when using a lesser amount of starter. This was
> even the case one time when I used a ridiculously small amount of starter
> and the dough took something like fifteen hours to get to the point of
> baking.
>
> So my experience isn't necessarily that more time equals more sourness.
>
> When I've experienced more sourness is when I've caused the bread to have
> more rising time through multiple punch-downs. Like I said, I've only done
> this a few times, but it has been reproducible. I used my normal formula and
> rather than just one punch-down I do two or three with a rise between each.
> What I shoot for is getting at least a good twelve hours or more of rising
> time out of the dough which would otherwise take five or six. Ultimately it
> goes into the oven when the loaf looks like I want so the times are
> approximate.
>
> Recently, I inadvertently got a sour loaf after leaving some dough in the
> refrigerator for a couple of days. I had put it in there for convenience
> when I was doing a lot of baking around Thanksgiving. Not only was I
> surprised by the sourness, the bread also came out with a very nice crumb. I
> have not tried to reproduce that so I can't really comment on it in any more
> detail.
>
> So based upon my baking, I've found that time does in fact help make a bread
> more sour, but not if that time is gained by decreasing the starter. So I
> would not agree with your logic above.
>
> I am far from the most knowledgeable person who reads this newsgroup and
> only offer this as my experience not any statement as to how all this stuff
> works.
>
> -Mike

I don't make bread too often. I do it because I like the results. It is like
my other hobby, photography. Most everyone takes their film to a lab. I like
to do it myself and have a darkroom to do my black and white. I even mix my
own chemicals. Ansel Adams I am not. But there is a sense of accomplishment
when I get that one beautiful print of my favorite subject, my granddaughter.

Yes I have tested the control of sourness by varying the amount of starter. I
like a tangy bread. When I forst got the SDI culture I chose to test the
resulting starter and made bread with starter amounts equivalent to both the 1
cup and 4 cup recipes. These recipes are to produce 60 ounces of dough for
four loaves. My tests were done using 1/4 of the amounts in the recipes. There
was a very distinct difference between the two. The smaller amount produced a
bread with a fairly sour taste and the larger amount was much milder. I don't
know if I would call the first one very sour but others did. Perhaps it was
because the culture had not had time to settle down.

I no longer make bread with that culture. I read so many raves about Carl's
Oregon culture that I sent for it, liked it and eventually discarded the SDI
culture.

Carl's behaves exactly the same.

I now make bread with fairly long rise times. I measure the ingredients (about
1/2 cup of starter for about 50 ounces of dough) and mix all the culture, half
the flour and 3/4 of the water. Basically this is the same as giving a real
heavy feeding at about a 2:1 ratio, close to the 1.5:1 ratio I keep my
culture. The mix is done in the bowl of my KA mixer. I then cover the bowl
with Saran wrap and let it sit overnight at room temperature, somewhere around
78 degrees F. Next morning it has close to tripled and then settled down, past
its peak. I then add the remaining flour and water and the salt, knead in the
KA and let it rise once then punch down, form, put it in a pan, slash and let
it rise a second time. Then I bake. No stone, no spraying.

I get some very good bread, much better than I get at most bakeries. The crust
is a bit crunchy. The holes are not as large as those in pictures I have seen
here.

Works for me. ;-)

Bert

Mike Pearce wrote:
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > "... the sourer bread comes from a longer incubation." (attributed to Dick
> Adams)
> >
> > "... I would expect the dough with the larger inoculation (of starter) to
> > double the fastest..."
> >
> > Lets see what that means:
> >
> > Premises:
> >
> > Larger inoculation doubles faster.
> >
> > Sourer bread comes from a longer incubation.
> >
> > Therefo
> >
> > Larger inoculation results in less sour bread.
>
> Do you find that to be the case from experience?
>
> This is what I've experienced...
>
> The few times I've purposely gone after and achieved a "sour" loaf it was
> through long rising/proofing/incubation/fermenting times. (I'm just gonna
> call it rising from now on) So I sort of agree with the statement that
> sourer bread comes from longer incubation.
>
> On the other hand, I play around with different amounts of starter fairly
> regularly. My bread, clearly takes more time to rise when I use less
> starter. If, however, I use the exact same procedure I usually use
> (rise/punch-down/shape/rise/bake) I don't find that there is a noticeable
> difference in "sourness" when using a lesser amount of starter. This was
> even the case one time when I used a ridiculously small amount of starter
> and the dough took something like fifteen hours to get to the point of
> baking.
>
> So my experience isn't necessarily that more time equals more sourness.
>
> When I've experienced more sourness is when I've caused the bread to have
> more rising time through multiple punch-downs. Like I said, I've only done
> this a few times, but it has been reproducible. I used my normal formula and
> rather than just one punch-down I do two or three with a rise between each.
> What I shoot for is getting at least a good twelve hours or more of rising
> time out of the dough which would otherwise take five or six. Ultimately it
> goes into the oven when the loaf looks like I want so the times are
> approximate.
>
> Recently, I inadvertently got a sour loaf after leaving some dough in the
> refrigerator for a couple of days. I had put it in there for convenience
> when I was doing a lot of baking around Thanksgiving. Not only was I
> surprised by the sourness, the bread also came out with a very nice crumb. I
> have not tried to reproduce that so I can't really comment on it in any more
> detail.
>
> So based upon my baking, I've found that time does in fact help make a bread
> more sour, but not if that time is gained by decreasing the starter. So I
> would not agree with your logic above.
>
> I am far from the most knowledgeable person who reads this newsgroup and
> only offer this as my experience not any statement as to how all this stuff
> works.
>
> -Mike

BTW, I make only white bread. If I want rye or any other kind of bread I go to
a Publix that has a bakery and buy some of their's. It is not bad, much better
than the large commercial bakeries.

Sometimes I will add some bacon drippings to the dough. What I am looking for
is something like Cuban bread. So far I have not been too successful. I think
you need steam injection to get that thin, blistered crust that the small
bakery I buy it from gets.

Bert

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 15:25:00 -0800, Phil wrote:

> (Phil) wrote in message . com>...
>> I'm wondering...I recently posted about how a baker gave me a chunk of
>> his "chef" (doughy starter). Would it be possibe for me to take a cup
>> of the chef, let it warm up (I keep it in the fridge), and then simply
>> mix it with flour, water, and salt and bake with it? I know the
>> process would involve a lot of trial and error as to the amounts
>> used/hydration--but i'm willing to experiment. Then, could I just
>> replenish the chef by feeding it with flour/water in equal parts?
>
> Well, I've decided not to use the chef and have succeded in making a
> starter out of the "chef" (at least I think I've suceeded). I took
> about a generous teaspoon of the chef a few days ago and mixed it with
> .25 cup of flour and .25 cup water, so that the consistency was (is)
> about like pancake batter. I covered it and let it sit on top of the
> fridge and low and behold today it was all bubbly and smelled a lot
> like the chef!! Woo-hoo! So, I mixed another quarter cup of flour and
> water.

What I've been doing for a while now is making a new seed from the bread
I'm currently making, then building that gradually over two days into a
new chef. I start with about a half-ounce of dough, cut from the dough
right before I shape the loaves. That sits in the fridge for about 24
hours, then I take it out and start to feed it. After about another 24
hours, I have about 12 ounces of what might be called a very firm starter,
but it's really more like aged dough, and lends a great taste to the
breads. To that 12 ounces I add 14 more of flour and 7 of water
(adjusting of course to make the dough nice), and 2-1/2 tsps of salt. I
let this ferment for about 4 hours, then whack off another half-ounce,
stick in the fridge, shape the new loaves (I get to batards from it) and
so it goes. This is almost straight from the Silverton book, but I also
read and stole some pain au levain tips from the Bread Alone and Crust &
Crumb books.

But this way you don't have to cherish that seed you got from the baker --
you make your own each time you make bread. I like to think that the
breads I make have a history that can be traced back to a certain loaf.
(I'm not at all sure why I find that interesting, but I do.)

As you can read in the Oven Spring thread, I'm still dealing with just how
to proof it, but no matter how it proofs, it still has a lovely flavor
(tingly-sour crust, but not too) and a regular, but fairly open crumb.

I've also made a chef from scratch -- after vacation, I just make a
very teeny batch of bread dough using my regular starter, and start it
aging as above.

m