So I made some bread yesterday. Used about 80 percent white and 20
percent whole wheat flour. The dough was really miserable stuff - sticky
and gooey, just didn't want to hold together. Didn't rise much after it
was shaped, either, just spread a bit. And not much oven spring at all.
Hmm. Well, I did let the sponge sit for probably too long, and maybe I
did use more whole wheat than usual, but still.

This morning I tasted the bread. Oh. Well, now I know why you add salt
to the dough.

-John-

On Feb 28, 6:52 am, John White > wrote:
> So I made some bread yesterday. Used about 80 percent white and 20
> percent whole wheat flour. The dough was really miserable stuff - sticky
> and gooey, just didn't want to hold together. Didn't rise much after it
> was shaped, either, just spread a bit. And not much oven spring at all.
> Hmm. Well, I did let the sponge sit for probably too long, and maybe I
> did use more whole wheat than usual, but still.
>
> This morning I tasted the bread. Oh. Well, now I know why you add salt
> to the dough.
>
> -John-

It probably all stems from omitting the salt. Without salt the dough
stays "sticky and gooey". The gluten doesn't mature well so the dough
stays flabby. Thus, while waiting for it to firm up and rise, it over-
proofs. And... over-proofing occurs more easily without salt...
because salt retards/balances the acid build.

So... no salt = bad gluten = doesn't trap gas = more proofing time =
glop.

In article .com>,
"Will" > wrote:

> On Feb 28, 6:52 am, John White > wrote:
> > So I made some bread yesterday. Used about 80 percent white and 20
> > percent whole wheat flour. The dough was really miserable stuff - sticky
> > and gooey, just didn't want to hold together. Didn't rise much after it
> > was shaped, either, just spread a bit. And not much oven spring at all.
> > Hmm. Well, I did let the sponge sit for probably too long, and maybe I
> > did use more whole wheat than usual, but still.
> >
> > This morning I tasted the bread. Oh. Well, now I know why you add salt
> > to the dough.
> >
> > -John-
>
> It probably all stems from omitting the salt. Without salt the dough
> stays "sticky and gooey". The gluten doesn't mature well so the dough
> stays flabby. Thus, while waiting for it to firm up and rise, it over-
> proofs. And... over-proofing occurs more easily without salt...
> because salt retards/balances the acid build.
>
> So... no salt = bad gluten = doesn't trap gas = more proofing time =
> glop.

Oh yeah, no question that the problem was the lack of salt. The other
stuff was just the rationalizations I was going through before I tasted
it.

"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Feb 28, 6:52 am, John White > wrote:
>> So I made some bread yesterday. Used about 80 percent white and 20
>> percent whole wheat flour. The dough was really miserable stuff - sticky
>> and gooey, just didn't want to hold together. Didn't rise much after it
>> was shaped, either, just spread a bit. And not much oven spring at all.
>> Hmm. Well, I did let the sponge sit for probably too long, and maybe I
>> did use more whole wheat than usual, but still.
>>
>> This morning I tasted the bread. Oh. Well, now I know why you add salt
>> to the dough.
>>
>> -John-
>
> It probably all stems from omitting the salt. Without salt the dough
> stays "sticky and gooey". The gluten doesn't mature well so the dough
> stays flabby. Thus, while waiting for it to firm up and rise, it over-
> proofs. And... over-proofing occurs more easily without salt...
> because salt retards/balances the acid build.
>
> So... no salt = bad gluten = doesn't trap gas = more proofing time =
> glop.

Not in my experience. when I've forgotten salt I don't know about it until
the first bite.

The hens don't seem to mind ...

Mary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On 28 Feb, 15:33, "Mary Fisher" > wrote:
> Not in my experience. when I've forgotten salt I don't know about it until
> the first bite.
>
> The hens don't seem to mind ...

Yeah I agree Mary, I haven't done it in a while now but I haven't
really noticed any obvious difference that couldn't be for some other
minor reason. I usually find that the bread is more than edible with
some salty butter or something. And yeah the birds don't mind either.

I suspect John, if you had added the salt you still would have had
problems. But that's how we learn.

Jim

In article .com>,
"TG" > wrote:

> On 28 Feb, 15:33, "Mary Fisher" > wrote:
> > Not in my experience. when I've forgotten salt I don't know about it until
> > the first bite.
> >
> > The hens don't seem to mind ...
>
> Yeah I agree Mary, I haven't done it in a while now but I haven't
> really noticed any obvious difference that couldn't be for some other
> minor reason. I usually find that the bread is more than edible with
> some salty butter or something. And yeah the birds don't mind either.
>
> I suspect John, if you had added the salt you still would have had
> problems. But that's how we learn.
>
> Jim

Nope, made some more (with salt included) using identical proportions
and the same starter, and it came out just fine. So now I'm really
puzzled as to why you and Mary have different results. I used 80 percent
KA Bread Flour, 20 percent KA WW flour. Local water is quite soft. It's
clear that, without salt, the gluten in my dough developed badly if at
all. So why are your results different? There's a lesson in there
somewhere, but I can't figure out what it is.

-John-

I also agree with Mary and Jim. The first bite reveals the problem.
I'm also aware that salt can actually interfere with gluten
development, but strengthen it in the final dough, hence the omission
of same along with starter during autolyzes.
One must be certain that all other variables are eliminated before
blaming saltlessness. Look to Tuscany. I am curious to know if you
discover something else. -Erich

On 2 Mar, 16:46, John White > wrote:
...
> > Jim
>
> Nope, made some more (with salt included) using identical proportions
> and the same starter, and it came out just fine. So now I'm really
> puzzled as to why you and Mary have different results. ...There's a lesson in there
> somewhere, but I can't figure out what it is.
>
> -John-

You say the same starter but was it fed since?

Jim

My experience with leaving out the salt in sourdough was that it rose and
baked fine, but it tasted lousy..I was trying to figure out what I did and
then it hit me..DUH!
I salted the buttered slices and it was edible, but not great.
My water is very hard here though, I wonder if that makes a difference, I
vaguely recall reading someplace that when using hard water one can get away
with less salt. Maybe one day I'll try baking with distilled water with and
without salt and see what happens..

Mike S.

"John White" > wrote in message news:jccw-> Nope,
made some more (with salt included) using identical proportions
> and the same starter, and it came out just fine. So now I'm really
> puzzled as to why you and Mary have different results. I used 80 percent
> KA Bread Flour, 20 percent KA WW flour. Local water is quite soft. It's
> clear that, without salt, the gluten in my dough developed badly if at
> all. So why are your results different? There's a lesson in there
> somewhere, but I can't figure out what it is.
>
> -John-