Folks,

I just found this group so please forgive me if this topic has been
discussed before.

I have been researching various forms of food preservation and
transformation by fermentation and I can find a lot of information on
lactic acid fermentation and acetic acid pickling but I've been unable
to find any information on using acetic acid bacteria to ferment and
pickle vegetables. One advantage of acetic acid fermentation over basic
vinegar pickling would be that it would reach its own equilibrium
acidity level, one wouldn't have to fuss as much about making sure that
the vinegar levels are correct. On the other hand, it might be far more
susceptable to mold (though vinegar production itself is fairly
straighforward).

Does anyone have any information on this topic?

Geoffrey Tolle

Would you not have to produce the vinegar, and then from that pickle the
vegetables? Otherwise the vegetables would spoil in the time the solution
came up to acid strength. Especially as, from what I understand of the
topic, you need oxygen to create vinegar. I really don't think you could
leave the vegetables in an alcoholic mix at room temperature exposed to the
air in the hope that the formation of vinegar would preserve them. IMHO it
would be far safer to use your 5% vinegar to pickle the vegetables,
refrigerating if in contact with the air, otherwise you would find you were
fermenting the vegetables as much as anything else. Generally the idea
behind food preservation is to _prevent_ them from fermenting. ;-)

That's just my guess though, there might well be a safe method that could be
employed to preserve the vegetables in a fermenting liquid without the whole
thing going sour on you. I think it would be difficult though, and hard to
get safe results for the home preserver.

All the Best,

Sean


"Geoffrey Tolle" > wrote in message
...
> Folks,
>
> I just found this group so please forgive me if this topic has been
> discussed before.
>
> I have been researching various forms of food preservation and
> transformation by fermentation and I can find a lot of information on
> lactic acid fermentation and acetic acid pickling but I've been unable
> to find any information on using acetic acid bacteria to ferment and
> pickle vegetables. One advantage of acetic acid fermentation over basic
> vinegar pickling would be that it would reach its own equilibrium
> acidity level, one wouldn't have to fuss as much about making sure that
> the vinegar levels are correct. On the other hand, it might be far more
> susceptable to mold (though vinegar production itself is fairly
> straighforward).
>
> Does anyone have any information on this topic?
>
> Geoffrey Tolle
>

All good points. My thinking is that, starting off with a vinegar mother
should develop the pickling medium as quickly as a souring mother develops a
brined souring medium. Will is work? I don't know. I thought I'd ask if anyone
else had tried it first. Part of my interest is in answering the question, when
did pickling become a matter of storing food in pre-fermented vinegar rather
than starting it in a brine and letting it sour?

One of the disadvantages of fermentation as opposed to straight pickling is
the uncertainty of the process (not that pickling is 100%). But some of the
advantages are the reduction of energy use, self-adjusting media, and potential
health benefits from intestinal flora compatible microbes.

Thanks for the reply.

Geoffrey Tolle

Sean wrote:

> Would you not have to produce the vinegar, and then from that pickle the
> vegetables? Otherwise the vegetables would spoil in the time the solution
> came up to acid strength. Especially as, from what I understand of the
> topic, you need oxygen to create vinegar. I really don't think you could
> leave the vegetables in an alcoholic mix at room temperature exposed to the
> air in the hope that the formation of vinegar would preserve them. IMHO it
> would be far safer to use your 5% vinegar to pickle the vegetables,
> refrigerating if in contact with the air, otherwise you would find you were
> fermenting the vegetables as much as anything else. Generally the idea
> behind food preservation is to _prevent_ them from fermenting. ;-)
>
> That's just my guess though, there might well be a safe method that could be
> employed to preserve the vegetables in a fermenting liquid without the whole
> thing going sour on you. I think it would be difficult though, and hard to
> get safe results for the home preserver.
>
> All the Best,
>
> Sean
>
> "Geoffrey Tolle" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Folks,
> >
> > I just found this group so please forgive me if this topic has been
> > discussed before.
> >
> > I have been researching various forms of food preservation and
> > transformation by fermentation and I can find a lot of information on
> > lactic acid fermentation and acetic acid pickling but I've been unable
> > to find any information on using acetic acid bacteria to ferment and
> > pickle vegetables. One advantage of acetic acid fermentation over basic
> > vinegar pickling would be that it would reach its own equilibrium
> > acidity level, one wouldn't have to fuss as much about making sure that
> > the vinegar levels are correct. On the other hand, it might be far more
> > susceptable to mold (though vinegar production itself is fairly
> > straighforward).
> >
> > Does anyone have any information on this topic?
> >
> > Geoffrey Tolle
> >

As I understand it, the traditional method of making pickles is lactic
acid fermentation which is where you add an appropriate amount of salt
and let the naturally occurring lactic acid bacteria work on it. This
will generate lots of beneficial microbes and enhance the nutritional
content of the preserved food. Pickling in vinegar is an alternate
modern (i.e. sterile) method which replicates the preservative effect
and tastes a bit like the lactic acid in the traditional method, but
without the bacterial element present. So there is no acetic acid
fermentation process per se as the pickling is accomplished by adding
prepared vinegar and, if you want to eat large numbers of beneficial
microbes, the traditional lactic acid fermentation is the way to go.
Hope this helps, James


Geoffrey Tolle > wrote in message >...
> All good points. My thinking is that, starting off with a vinegar mother
> should develop the pickling medium as quickly as a souring mother develops a
> brined souring medium. Will is work? I don't know. I thought I'd ask if anyone
> else had tried it first. Part of my interest is in answering the question, when
> did pickling become a matter of storing food in pre-fermented vinegar rather
> than starting it in a brine and letting it sour?
>
> One of the disadvantages of fermentation as opposed to straight pickling is
> the uncertainty of the process (not that pickling is 100%). But some of the
> advantages are the reduction of energy use, self-adjusting media, and potential
> health benefits from intestinal flora compatible microbes.
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Geoffrey Tolle
>
> Sean wrote:
>
> > Would you not have to produce the vinegar, and then from that pickle the
> > vegetables? Otherwise the vegetables would spoil in the time the solution
> > came up to acid strength. Especially as, from what I understand of the
> > topic, you need oxygen to create vinegar. I really don't think you could
> > leave the vegetables in an alcoholic mix at room temperature exposed to the
> > air in the hope that the formation of vinegar would preserve them. IMHO it
> > would be far safer to use your 5% vinegar to pickle the vegetables,
> > refrigerating if in contact with the air, otherwise you would find you were
> > fermenting the vegetables as much as anything else. Generally the idea
> > behind food preservation is to _prevent_ them from fermenting. ;-)
> >
> > That's just my guess though, there might well be a safe method that could be
> > employed to preserve the vegetables in a fermenting liquid without the whole
> > thing going sour on you. I think it would be difficult though, and hard to
> > get safe results for the home preserver.
> >
> > All the Best,
> >
> > Sean
> >