http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit

What do *you* think it is and why?

--
Bob

Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

Opinicus wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit
>
> What do *you* think it is and why?

I live in Virginia, USA. It's the south. There's only one kind of
biscuit, and it takes an old woman with 63 years of experience to make
it properly.

No one else can do it. The people who license biscuit-making won't even
consider a man for it. And women must be elderly and cranky but with a
secret heart of gold or other precious metal except zirconium. Oh, and
ytturbium.

Those women have a canoe-shaped wooden trough about 18-inches long and
maybe a foot wide. They mix their secret ingredients (which I've
discovered through serious spying but can't divulge) in the trough and
mutter their incantations. Did I say incantations? There are no
incantations. (TANI)

No, seriously...

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" wrote...
> Opinicus wrote:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit
>>
>> What do *you* think it is and why?
>
> I live in Virginia, USA. It's the south. There's only one kind of biscuit,
> and it takes an old woman with 63 years of experience to make it properly.
>
> No one else can do it. The people who license biscuit-making won't even
> consider a man for it. And women must be elderly and cranky but with a
> secret heart of gold or other precious metal except zirconium. Oh, and
> ytturbium.
>
> Those women have a canoe-shaped wooden trough about 18-inches long and
> maybe a foot wide. They mix their secret ingredients (which I've
> discovered through serious spying but can't divulge) in the trough and
> mutter their incantations. Did I say incantations? There are no
> incantations. (TANI)
>
> No, seriously...
>
Cereally serially seriously!

God rose early one morning and created "country sausage" patties to cook
crisply brown and sandwich between biscuit halves.

The next day, he rose late and discovered splitting, buttering and toasting
yesterday's biscuits to serve with sorghum syrup or Seville orange
marmalade.

......and Captain Jack's (P. O'B's) "toasted cheese" is unmatched when made
using dfay-old biscuits.

Then there's the grandest excuse for a product rarely obtainable in the US
today, dry cured ham (as in original Smithfield or from places like Burger's
in Missouri) sliced translucently as in Serrano or the Italian versions,
terribly salty unless soaked for a month or two, but on "Beaten Biscuits", a
keystone of ancient Southren cuisine as in "Spoonbread" and strange
beverages made with eggs and alcohol.

Then there's the finest excuse for ordering the really extra sharp versions
of (US) "Cheddar" from Vermont, etc. (or even down at the Wal-Mart or Sam's
for the "Cabot" brand), "Cheese Biscuits" (which at best have a little
dosage of garlic powder and a more generous addition of "real" paprika, the
kind with actual flavor.

After that, the contradiction in terms, "Sourdough" biscuits without
saleratus and such, a "yeasty" biscuit.

All things considered, the ability to make (a) red plum preserves, (b) sour
cherry jam, (c) "May-haw" jelly, or the jelly from wild grapes, "muscadines"
or "Mustangs" (the same, I think), presages the entry into the arcane
mysteries of biscuitry, a witch's craft at which we neophytes/novices only
knead at the edges.

Now, able to purchase the softer "Southern" flours locally, inreases the
ability to make passable, edible if not award-winning biuscuits, always
hoping to find the secret formula for the layered versions.

It is difficult to envision actually making biscuits as "Short" as those
from Micket D's, almost dripping with grease, but having in extremis made
good biscuits with bacon grease and ham fat, I'm game to experiment.

......as with pie crust, lard may be best!

TMO

TOliver wrote:

> Then there's the grandest excuse for a product rarely obtainable in the US
> today, dry cured ham (as in original Smithfield or from places like Burger's
> in Missouri)

Turner hams from the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. Neighbors of mine.
They produce a few thousand a year and they're wonderful. Salt and sugar
cured, so nowhere near as salty as those others. <www.turnerhams.com>

> sliced translucently as in Serrano or the Italian versions,
> terribly salty unless soaked for a month or two, but on "Beaten Biscuits", a
> keystone of ancient Southren cuisine as in "Spoonbread" and strange
> beverages made with eggs and alcohol.
>
> Then there's the finest excuse for ordering the really extra sharp versions
> of (US) "Cheddar" from Vermont, etc. (or even down at the Wal-Mart or Sam's
> for the "Cabot" brand), "Cheese Biscuits" (which at best have a little
> dosage of garlic powder and a more generous addition of "real" paprika, the
> kind with actual flavor.

Yep.

Pretty good, too, is strawberries sliced and spooned over a split
biscuit. Splash of cream over top.

> .....as with pie crust, lard may be best!

Kin ah hear a AMEN...

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" > wrote
>
> No, seriously...
>
> Pastorio

I wish you had been. It is an interesting subject with no definitive answer
that I know of. The use of "biscuit" in non-American terms is pretty
uniform. American biscuits are, in some ways similar to scones, but lighter.
I suspect two possibilities but have no reason to except "gut feeling" which
is notoriously misleading.

Having had an Irish mother, I have had some very light scones and light
breads that could almost be called biscuits.

Also, I see a lot of similarities between American biscuits and certain
dumplings. Both in taste and texture.

Many of American food names, including cookies, came from the Dutch. Perhaps
there is a convoluted name twist here. Or perhaps, the Irish and Scottish
immigrants in the south simply 1) changed the meanings as time passes or 2)
followed some antiquated language usage which is a common thread with these
people.....many American English constructs are old styles that differ from
modern British English.

I think not. So let me suggest a third possibility, with your indulgence:
The name cookie (Dutch) having been well established in America, we have a
loose cannon in the term "biscuit". We have Irish scones and dumplings. We
are using a simple recipe, easy to make and quite variable as to contents.
What to call 'em?

As far as I am aware, no other cuisine makes anything identical to American
biscuits. Similar sure, identical...no. But wait! American biscuits are
eaten just like scones and also are used exactly like dumplings!

Holy Crap! It is those Netherlanders again! Oh, and along with American
contrary inventiveness too. Both helped change Irish immigrant food to a new
art form with a borrowed name.

I'm just speculating idly here, so feel free to cut my hawsers. The OED
won't be of much help here I think. An American food with a borrowed name
not in use in America. Why? Dunno really. It works though. Unlike the
American use of pants when they mean trousers.

Charlie

Charles Gifford wrote:
> "Bob (this one)" > wrote
>
>>No, seriously...
>>
>>Pastorio
>
> I wish you had been.

Me too. It would have assumed I had the slightest notion of what I was
talking about. But here's some info:
<http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/CookieHistory.htm>
<http://www.readthewest.com/booksAnthologies.html>
<http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2676/Soul_Food_a_brief_history>

> It is an interesting subject with no definitive answer
> that I know of. The use of "biscuit" in non-American terms is pretty
> uniform.

Actually, in its incarnations in the various European languages, it
means many different things, some cooked twice some not. Zweiback in
German. Biscuit in French. Biscotto in Italian. Biscuit in English (for
cookies in the U.K. and different things in Oz.). And in usages like
seabiscuit for hardtack.

> American biscuits are, in some ways similar to scones, but lighter.
> I suspect two possibilities but have no reason to except "gut feeling" which
> is notoriously misleading.
>
> Having had an Irish mother, I have had some very light scones and light
> breads that could almost be called biscuits.

They're all quick breads, sharing the characteristics of the genre.

> Also, I see a lot of similarities between American biscuits and certain
> dumplings. Both in taste and texture.

Dumplings in the U.S. are steamed quick breads, generally cooked over a
simmering stew or soup. Sometimes made as a thick batter, and other
times and a soft dough.

> Many of American food names, including cookies, came from the Dutch.

Not too many came from dutch. Americans have cheerfully pillaged other
languages for names of things. And then with equal cheer changed them so
they bear scant resemblance to the originals.

> Perhaps
> there is a convoluted name twist here. Or perhaps, the Irish and Scottish
> immigrants in the south simply 1) changed the meanings as time passes or 2)
> followed some antiquated language usage which is a common thread with these
> people.....many American English constructs are old styles that differ from
> modern British English.
>
> I think not. So let me suggest a third possibility, with your indulgence:
> The name cookie (Dutch) having been well established in America, we have a
> loose cannon in the term "biscuit". We have Irish scones and dumplings. We
> are using a simple recipe, easy to make and quite variable as to contents.
> What to call 'em?
>
> As far as I am aware, no other cuisine makes anything identical to American
> biscuits. Similar sure, identical...no. But wait! American biscuits are
> eaten just like scones and also are used exactly like dumplings!

Actually they aren't often eaten like scones. They rarely are something
to nibble with tea. Generally, they're part of a meal. Your meaning for
dumpling is at odds with the American usage.

> Holy Crap! It is those Netherlanders again! Oh, and along with American
> contrary inventiveness too. Both helped change Irish immigrant food to a new
> art form with a borrowed name.

I'm skeptical about that. The Dutch influence in American cuisine is all
but invisible. Likewise Scots or Irish. Scots made oat cakes on
griddles. Biscuits are oven-baked. There's some conjecture that they
came out of plantation cooking and were an invention/adaptation, in the
specific, of slave cooks.

> I'm just speculating idly here, so feel free to cut my hawsers. The OED
> won't be of much help here I think. An American food with a borrowed name
> not in use in America. Why? Dunno really. It works though. Unlike the
> American use of pants when they mean trousers.

We also say pants when we mean breathing rapidly.

Those wacky Americans...

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" > wrote
>
> Those wacky Americans...
>
> Pastorio

Indeed. I had errors in my post as I admitted. You had plenty in your reply
to mine. Together or individually we made no advance in this subject.
Howsomever, my dear Pastorio, you deserve points for the line above.

Charlie, biscuitless in Sandy Eggo

Charles Gifford wrote:

> "Bob (this one)" > wrote
>
>>Those wacky Americans...
>>
>>Pastorio
>
> Indeed. I had errors in my post as I admitted. You had plenty in your reply
> to mine. Together or individually we made no advance in this subject.
> Howsomever, my dear Pastorio, you deserve points for the line above.
>
> Charlie, biscuitless in Sandy Eggo

<LOL> I said in my first (or was it second) post that I didn't know
anything about the subject. At least yours included some interesting
international conjectures.

But you do need to come east for some biscuits, I figure Texas would be
close enough. They make them nearly as well as the old farm women around
here in Virginia.

And I meant it. Nearly.

Let me know the next time you're in my neck of the woods. I'll introduce
you to some experts far beyond my meager skills.

Pastorio

How do you know we mean trousers? For all you know, we're all running about in our shreddies...

PlaidPooka wrote:[color=blue]
> Charles Gifford Wrote:
>
>>"Bob (this one)" wrote
>>
>>
>>I'm just speculating idly here, so feel free to cut my hawsers. The
>>OED
>>won't be of much help here I think. An American food with a borrowed
>>name
>>not in use in America. Why? Dunno really. It works though. Unlike the
>>American use of pants when they mean trousers.
>>
>>Charlie
>
>
> How do you know we mean trousers? For all you know, we're all running
> about in our shreddies...
>
>
Oh no! Akk! Run away! Shreddies are those long thermal undies that
RAF aircrew wear under their immersion suits and G suits, to keep them
warm when they fall out of their aircraft into the North Sea - so called
because of the knits resemblance to a certain famous breakfast cereal.

--
Kate XXXXXX R.C.T.Q Madame Chef des Trolls
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.katedicey.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

"PlaidPooka" > wrote in message
...[color=blue]
>
> Charles Gifford Wrote:
> > "Bob (this one)" wrote
> >
> >
> > I'm just speculating idly here, so feel free to cut my hawsers. The
> > OED
> > won't be of much help here I think. An American food with a borrowed
> > name
> > not in use in America. Why? Dunno really. It works though. Unlike the
> > American use of pants when they mean trousers.
> >
> > Charlie
>
> How do you know we mean trousers? For all you know, we're all running
> about in our shreddies...
>
>
> --
> PlaidPooka

In my part of this thread I was referring to the odd use of language by
Americans. Your response was humorous though!

Charlie

Opinicus wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit
>
> What do *you* think it is and why?
>
Biscuits are thin, flat, and vary from crisp to hard. Sweet, pain, or
savoury, take your pick!
Cookies are thicker and softer, with a slightly chewy texture.
Scones are light and fluffy in texture, and either oven baked or baked
on a girdle.
Oatcakes are thin, flat, crisp, and baked on a girdle! They're neither
biscuits not scones, they are a law unto themselves...
Soda breads are heavier than scones, but still delish...
And stottie cake is a oven bottom baked bread (traditionally turned over
half way through cooking) with yeast, and the best thing in the world
for making sandwiches! Oh, except Chelsea buns...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stottie_cake
--
Kate XXXXXX R.C.T.Q Madame Chef des Trolls
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.katedicey.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

"Kate Dicey" wrote...
> Opinicus wrote:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit
>>
>> What do *you* think it is and why?
>>
> Biscuits are thin, flat, and vary from crisp to hard.

Here writes a lady from the benighted kitchens - either great drafty halls
or tiny niches stolen from a trailer house ("mobile home")of the - of the
Scuttled H'aisles who has never met the grandest of pleasures, the ethereal
and ephemeral pleasures of "Hot Biscuits", reared as she seems to have been
on the British appraoch, at best little more than sweetened, flavored
hardtack/ship's biscuit, baked to last for an eternity or a voyage to the
Indies.


> Sweet, pain, or savoury, take your pick!

There's "Biscuitry Fromagic" as earlier mentioned, but otherwise, biscuits
are to be split, buttered and laden with strange or ordinary flavors from
cane syrup vis marmalades up through the haughtiest of berry compotes, but
not ignoring gravy along the way.

> Cookies are thicker and softer, with a slightly chewy texture.
> Scones are light and fluffy in texture, and either oven baked or baked on
> a girdle.

Scones light? Lighter'n what? Door Stops? ....And served near chilled to
boot, the temperature of an Erse' parlor, which even smoky with peat would
give you a bad case of chillbains if not frostbite on the side away from the
dank almost heatless glow of the hearth.

Biscuits are the quintessence of light! Gentler than the touch of fruit in
May Wine, softer than the patch of skin beneath a baby's ear, lighter than a
lover's breath.

While a drover at trail's end of the cattle drive or a freighter at the end
of a long haul might look forward to the harsh bite of whiskey or the sweaty
embrace of a brothel queen, the delight and pleasure of good biscuits
required only a bed of coals and a Dutch oven until the flour ran out or was
outnumbered by the weevils.

......and then there's the rarest of delicacies, since biscuits never lasted
long enough to produce it, the "pudding" made from biscuit crumbs, a dish
which causes bread puddling to blush.

The very height of luxury, like unto serving oysters with caviar, is a meal
in which both cornbread "dressing" and biscuits are on the same menu


> Oatcakes are thin, flat, crisp, and baked on a girdle! They're neither
> biscuits not scones, they are a law unto themselves...

Existing upon a diet of which forced the Scots to slip across the Border in
search of real food.

> Soda breads are heavier than scones, but still delish...

Vaguely reminiscent of biscuits, as if someone had mixed up a really bad
batch, left the dough in a grand lump and throwed it in the oven to
over-bake to a consistency that, jammed under a wheel, it would preserve the
cart from rolling off down the mountain.

Then they're known to put currants in it, which scattered about add no more
flavor and less protein than would have a lively brood of weevils. Currants
make grand jams, jellies and syrups, but speckling them in scones or soda
bread seems affectation.

> And stottie cake is a oven bottom baked bread (traditionally turned over
> half way through cooking) with yeast, and the best thing in the world for
> making sandwiches! Oh, except Chelsea buns...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stottie_cake
> --

I'll try it, although the brief time required to produce grand biscuits
makes longer work hard to justify.

(;-P) TMO

TOliver wrote:
> "Kate Dicey" wrote...
>
>>Opinicus wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuit
>>>
>>>What do *you* think it is and why?
>>>
>>
>>Biscuits are thin, flat, and vary from crisp to hard.
>
>
> Here writes a lady from the benighted kitchens - either great drafty halls
> or tiny niches stolen from a trailer house ("mobile home")of the - of the
> Scuttled H'aisles who has never met the grandest of pleasures, the ethereal
> and ephemeral pleasures of "Hot Biscuits", reared as she seems to have been
> on the British appraoch, at best little more than sweetened, flavored
> hardtack/ship's biscuit, baked to last for an eternity or a voyage to the
> Indies.
>
>
>
>>Sweet, pain, or savoury, take your pick!
>
>
> There's "Biscuitry Fromagic" as earlier mentioned, but otherwise, biscuits
> are to be split, buttered and laden with strange or ordinary flavors from
> cane syrup vis marmalades up through the haughtiest of berry compotes, but
> not ignoring gravy along the way.
>
>
>>Cookies are thicker and softer, with a slightly chewy texture.
>>Scones are light and fluffy in texture, and either oven baked or baked on
>>a girdle.
>
>
> Scones light? Lighter'n what? Door Stops? ....And served near chilled to
> boot, the temperature of an Erse' parlor, which even smoky with peat would
> give you a bad case of chillbains if not frostbite on the side away from the
> dank almost heatless glow of the hearth.

Dunno where *you've* had scones, but in this house they are usually
light enough that you need a butterfly net to catch them and come served
hot of the girdle or fresh out of the oven.

My good old Scots granny taught me to make girdle scones. For the very
best ones all you need is a heap of self raising flour in a bowl, a
pinch of salt, a little sugar, and enough full cream milk just on the
turn to make a soft but handleable dough. Mix them up with an old
kitchen knife, pat them out into a round about 3/4" thick, cut into
wedges and cook on a well floured girdle over a medium flame. Serve as
they come off the girdle, with home made raspberry jam and whipped cream.

Any left should be split and fried along with the bacon and black
pudding for breakfast.

A good peat fire with burn hot and slow and almost smokeless. Gives a
very even heat for cooking the oatcakes.

>>And stottie cake is a oven bottom baked bread (traditionally turned over
>>half way through cooking) with yeast, and the best thing in the world for
>>making sandwiches! Oh, except Chelsea buns...
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stottie_cake
>>--
>
>
> I'll try it, although the brief time required to produce grand biscuits
> makes longer work hard to justify.
>
You'll need a stone based oven and a long peel to make proper stottie
cakes. Oh, and home boiled ham and proper pease puddin'.

--
Kate XXXXXX R.C.T.Q Madame Chef des Trolls
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.katedicey.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

"Kate Dicey" > wrote
>
> Serve as
> they come off the girdle, with home made raspberry jam and whipped cream.
>
> Any left should be split and fried along with the bacon and black
> pudding for breakfast.

Food Porn!!!!!

Charlie

TOliver wrote, of Scones:

> Vaguely reminiscent of biscuits, as if someone had mixed up a really bad
> batch, left the dough in a grand lump and throwed it in the oven to
> over-bake to a consistency that, jammed under a wheel, it would preserve the
> cart from rolling off down the mountain.
>
> Then they're known to put currants in it, which scattered about add no more
> flavor and less protein than would have a lively brood of weevils. Currants
> make grand jams, jellies and syrups, but speckling them in scones or soda
> bread seems affectation.

That would be like me visiting the USA and judging all "biscuits" on what I
might eat at Po' Folks or Popeye's.

The currants that go in jam are not the same as those which may or may not
end up in scones. The jam, jelly & syrup ones would be blackcurrants [or
less commonly red/whitecurrants].

The currants that you think are in scones are very small dried grapes -
"mini raisins" if you like. Which actually are not put in scones although
may have been in past times - the overwhelming preference is for plump juicy
raisins or sultanas. These days they are only seen in mincemmeat, rich fruit
christmas cakes, and Eccles cakes.

Don't know where you got your scone impressions from, but s/he'd have been
first against the wall in my view. Unless this is merely some anti-Brit
propaganda, which I feel would be undeserved as we gave you the "biscuit"
recipe in the first place. What you've done with it since is your own
affair.

Sue
Portsmouth, UK
--
pen-drake location ntl-world-.-com minus hyphens.

"EastneyEnder" wrote:

>
> The currants that you think are in scones are very small dried grapes -
> "mini raisins" if you like. Which actually are not put in scones although
> may have been in past times - the overwhelming preference is for plump
> juicy
> raisins or sultanas. These days they are only seen in mincemmeat, rich
> fruit
> christmas cakes, and Eccles cakes.

.....Round here, East of the land of Fruits and Nuts, where raisins once were
set out to dry in the streets of Fresno, we're even seeing dried cranberries
in scones.
>
> Don't know where you got your scone impressions from, but s/he'd have been
> first against the wall in my view. Unless this is merely some anti-Brit
> propaganda, which I feel would be undeserved as we gave you the "biscuit"
> recipe in the first place. What you've done with it since is your own
> affair.
>

We're supportive of the UK and UKians, but become demonstrably out of
control when scullery scuts from the Scuttled Haisles commence to preaching
on biscuits with which they've been on a downhill run since Admiral Benbow
hauled down his flag and became a publican.

The cistern-chain pulling was so open, I had not the wit to include an irony
meter to advise you....

TMO

Growing up in Canada when it was just a colony (more or less) of the
UK, a biscuit was definitely nearer to a cracker than anything else.
Biscuits are hard dry flat things that go well with cheese.
Will

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:54:02 GMT, "TOliver" >
wrote:

>
>"EastneyEnder" wrote:
>
>>
>> The currants that you think are in scones are very small dried grapes -
>> "mini raisins" if you like. Which actually are not put in scones although
>> may have been in past times - the overwhelming preference is for plump
>> juicy
>> raisins or sultanas. These days they are only seen in mincemmeat, rich
>> fruit
>> christmas cakes, and Eccles cakes.
>
>....Round here, East of the land of Fruits and Nuts, where raisins once were
>set out to dry in the streets of Fresno, we're even seeing dried cranberries
>in scones.
>>
>> Don't know where you got your scone impressions from, but s/he'd have been
>> first against the wall in my view. Unless this is merely some anti-Brit
>> propaganda, which I feel would be undeserved as we gave you the "biscuit"
>> recipe in the first place. What you've done with it since is your own
>> affair.
>>
>
>We're supportive of the UK and UKians, but become demonstrably out of
>control when scullery scuts from the Scuttled Haisles commence to preaching
>on biscuits with which they've been on a downhill run since Admiral Benbow
>hauled down his flag and became a publican.
>
>The cistern-chain pulling was so open, I had not the wit to include an irony
>meter to advise you....
>
>TMO
>