ewdotson wrote:
> salgud wrote:
> > ewdotson wrote:
> > > Sheldon wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > > I see you're obviously not serious in receiving answers to your
> > > > queries.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The personal attacks may have perhaps been a bit unfortunate (it's
> > > always a bit of a shame to see people stoop to your level), but the
> > > poster you were replying to clearly has a far firmer grasp on the
> > > thermodynamics of the situation than you do.
> > The personal attacks were deliberate, obviously, in response to
> > numerous personal attacks by him to many of us in this forum, including
> > myself. I've found over the years, that the best way to deal with
> > bullies, physical or verbal, is to mimic their own behaviors. Gets 'em
> > every time!
>
> Oh, I know well enough what he's like. And can't really blame you for
> responding in kind. I always was excessively idealistic.
>
> --
> Ernest

I understand. And I, having been bullied a lot as a kid, and
excessively agressive with bullies, both physical and verbal. Most
consider it a fault, but I have no qualms about it. I probably
shouldn't enjoy bullying bullies so much!

"salgud" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> ewdotson wrote:
>> salgud wrote:
>> > ewdotson wrote:
>> > > Sheldon wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> > > > I see you're obviously not serious in receiving answers to your
>> > > > queries.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > The personal attacks may have perhaps been a bit unfortunate (it's
>> > > always a bit of a shame to see people stoop to your level), but the
>> > > poster you were replying to clearly has a far firmer grasp on the
>> > > thermodynamics of the situation than you do.
>> > The personal attacks were deliberate, obviously, in response to
>> > numerous personal attacks by him to many of us in this forum, including
>> > myself. I've found over the years, that the best way to deal with
>> > bullies, physical or verbal, is to mimic their own behaviors. Gets 'em
>> > every time!
>>
>> Oh, I know well enough what he's like. And can't really blame you for
>> responding in kind. I always was excessively idealistic.
>>
>> --
>> Ernest
>
> I understand. And I, having been bullied a lot as a kid, and
> excessively agressive with bullies, both physical and verbal. Most
> consider it a fault, but I have no qualms about it. I probably
> shouldn't enjoy bullying bullies so much!
>

Nah...don't apologize. Bullies and trolls *WANT* to be treated that way.
You're being a good neighbor.

Doug Kanter wrote:
> "salgud" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > ewdotson wrote:
> >> salgud wrote:
> >> > ewdotson wrote:
> >> > > Sheldon wrote:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> > > > I see you're obviously not serious in receiving answers to your
> >> > > > queries.
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > The personal attacks may have perhaps been a bit unfortunate (it's
> >> > > always a bit of a shame to see people stoop to your level), but the
> >> > > poster you were replying to clearly has a far firmer grasp on the
> >> > > thermodynamics of the situation than you do.
> >> > The personal attacks were deliberate, obviously, in response to
> >> > numerous personal attacks by him to many of us in this forum, including
> >> > myself. I've found over the years, that the best way to deal with
> >> > bullies, physical or verbal, is to mimic their own behaviors. Gets 'em
> >> > every time!
> >>
> >> Oh, I know well enough what he's like. And can't really blame you for
> >> responding in kind. I always was excessively idealistic.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ernest
> >
> > I understand. And I, having been bullied a lot as a kid, and
> > excessively agressive with bullies, both physical and verbal. Most
> > consider it a fault, but I have no qualms about it. I probably
> > shouldn't enjoy bullying bullies so much!
> >
>
> Nah...don't apologize. Bullies and trolls *WANT* to be treated that way.
> You're being a good neighbor.

ROFLMAO! Reminds me of that old joke, "What's the worst thing a sadist
can do to a masochist?"



Nothing.

Happy New Year!

Sheldon wrote:
>
> Actually frozen wouldn't, it's a solid... solids don't readily
> transfer energy through conduction with other solids... but
> ordinary soft/pliable room temperature dough and with all that
> wet gloppy sauce on top when it contacts hot porous stone,
> most definitely,

No, frozen solids conduct more heat and conduct it
more quickly than unfrozen.

In the case of water, the thermal conductivity of ice
is about 4 times higher than that of liquid water,
and the thermal diffusivity (roughly speaking, the
speed of conduction) is about 9 times higher, as
documented he

http://food.oregonstate.edu/learn/pop/water11.html

This correlates well with food. For example,
frozen chili with meat (a reasonable analog for
frozen pizza) has a thermal conductivity about
4 times higher than that of thawed chili, and
the thermal diffusivity is about 7 times higher,
as documented he

http://food.oregonstate.edu/energy/t11.html

Among other things, that's why you can
freeze food faster than you can thaw it.

"Sheldon" > wrote in
oups.com:

>
> Carol Garbo wrote:
>> You can also use the pizza stone for baking things like calzones and
>> crusty breads.
>
> Pizza stones are a gimmick, to separate the idiots from their dollars.
> Residential ovens have nowhere enough BTU ratings for quick enough
> recovery rates for stones to be of any real use other than imagined.

We did suggest heating the oven for an hour at the highest setting. The
recovery will be quicker this way as the whole oven has had the
temperature soaked in. Not exactly a commercial pizza oven but better
than the wait for the light to click off and then cram the pizza in.



> Common sense should tell all but the lowest IQ imbeciles that there is
> no way to make a wimpy home oven operate like a commercial pizza oven,
> no way whatsoever, I don't care if you put your tombstone in it... the
> more crap stuffed into an oven the less efficient it becomes, even
> negates the advantage of convection ovens... so go ahead, get the
> biggest baddest stones you can find. Unless you increase BTUs it's
> just an exercise in moronic mental masturbation.

How is the oven less efficient? More thermal mass allows for a quicker
recovery of temperature. Do you use thin pans on your stove top? Don't
want that thermal mass getting in the way of your burner when you dump
cold food in do you? Agree about a convection oven, but they did not
mention about a convection oven.

Again we are trying to suggest the best way to APPROXIMATE a commercial
pizza oven with what one has. When the original poster wins the lottery
they can have a commercial pizza oven built for the two times a year they
cook their own pizza. Otherwise, they can try a method that will help
provide better (not perfect as you seem to desire) results than what they
did that caused them to post asking for help.

Hope you have a better day.

--
---
Charles Quinn

"Choosing the lesser of two evils, is still choosing evil" - Jerry Garcia

salgud wrote:

> Doug Kanter wrote:
> > "salgud" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > > ewdotson wrote:
> > >> salgud wrote:
> > >> > ewdotson wrote:
> > >> > > Sheldon wrote:
> > >>
> > >> [snip]
> > >>
> > >> > > > I see you're obviously not serious in receiving answers to
> your
> > >> > > > queries.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > The personal attacks may have perhaps been a bit unfortunate
> (it's
> > >> > > always a bit of a shame to see people stoop to your level),
> but the
> > >> > > poster you were replying to clearly has a far firmer grasp on
> the
> > >> > > thermodynamics of the situation than you do.
> > >> > The personal attacks were deliberate, obviously, in response to
>
> > >> > numerous personal attacks by him to many of us in this forum,
> including
> > >> > myself. I've found over the years, that the best way to deal
> with
> > >> > bullies, physical or verbal, is to mimic their own behaviors.
> Gets 'em
> > >> > every time!
> > >>
> > >> Oh, I know well enough what he's like. And can't really blame
> you for
> > >> responding in kind. I always was excessively idealistic.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Ernest
> > >
> > > I understand. And I, having been bullied a lot as a kid, and
> > > excessively agressive with bullies, both physical and verbal. Most
>
> > > consider it a fault, but I have no qualms about it. I probably
> > > shouldn't enjoy bullying bullies so much!
> > >
> >
> > Nah...don't apologize. Bullies and trolls *WANT* to be treated that
> way.
> > You're being a good neighbor.
>
> ROFLMAO! Reminds me of that old joke, "What's the worst thing a sadist
>
> can do to a masochist?"
>
> Nothing.
>
> Happy New Year!

What amazes me about sheldon and his ilk is that every now and then they
speak to you quite civilly as if they had never offended you, or at
least attempted to do so, never tried to 'bully' you. I have
experienced this here with sheldon and in various other groups with
others of his ilk and in real life as an young person (don't even get me
started on 'family') when otherwise brutal, bullying people act quite
sane.

As if they expect an equally 'normal' response instead of, as in real
life, a look of incredulity, or here in the net an ignoring of their
boorish behaviour as contemptible and any attempt by them to be civil as
not to be trusted.

In real life one avoids these people, shuns them, and that effectively
as most every one else does to, in the net they are a bit more
obtrusive, even with mail filters one sees their vile abusiveness when
others respond to them.
---
JL

In article >,
Joseph Littleshoes > wrote:


> > Doug Kanter wrote:

> > > >> salgud wrote:


> > > >> > myself. I've found over the years, that the best way to deal
> > with
> > > >> > bullies, physical or verbal, is to mimic their own behaviors.
> > Gets 'em
> > > >> > every time!


> > > Nah...don't apologize. Bullies and trolls *WANT* to be treated that
> > way.
> > > You're being a good neighbor.


> as most every one else does to, in the net they are a bit more
> obtrusive, even with mail filters one sees their vile abusiveness when
> others respond to them.

Which, of course, is what the two posters above are advocating, seeing
who can make the most obscene and useless posts.

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 08:50:46 GMT, Joseph Littleshoes
> wrote:

>in the net they are a bit more
>obtrusive, even with mail filters one sees their vile abusiveness when
>others respond to them.

and with that very last phrase we have a fine summary of the
problem...

All the best
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Sheldon wrote:
> Dee Randall wrote:
>
>>We made pizza tonight. I let my stone heat 1 hour at 550. Each time the
>>element comes on, it bakes the stone even hotter, eventually getting the
>>stone as hot and hotter than the inside of oven temperature. Don't take my
>>word for it, check the bread groups and google. I got this information from
>>the scientific breadmaker experts.
>
> That must be a Magic Chef oven.
>
> That's not possible, least not on this planet... because if you can get
> something inside your oven hotter than the oven temperature you've just
> created energy out of nothing... free energy... you've solved all the
> world's energy shortage problems. Your scientific breadmaker experts
> are obviously just as stupid as you.

Once again, our resident blowhole moron shows he's a moron with no real
knowledge outside his moronic blowhole moronness.

The element is *always* going to be hotter than the oven temperature
when it's glowing. The fact that it cycles on and off means that getting
the oven to a set temperature only needs part of the heat-generating
capacity of the element. It's glowing hotter than any set temperature
and heating the stone every time it comes on. It's heating the stone by
both conduction from heated air and radiation (the glow) which is
considerably hotter than the air.

The temperature of the air in the oven isn't the same as the temperature
from the radiant element. If it were, the broiler wouldn't brown top
surfaces of foods. Put your thermometer up near the broiler element and
see how long it survives, moron. Put some lead up near it and see if it
melts, moron. Melting point of lead...? Look it up, ignorant blowhole moron.

> The only way to create a hotter temperature inside an oven is to
> increase the temperature until your pizza ignites, than while the pizza
> is burning (giving up its energy) its flames will be hotter than the
> oven temperature... of course you'll have nothing to eat but ash.

Learn some physics, fatheaded, pontificating moron.

Pastorio

Sheldon wrote:
> Carol Garbo wrote:
>
>>You can also use the pizza stone for baking things like calzones and
>>crusty breads.
>
>
> Pizza stones are a gimmick, to separate the idiots from their dollars.
> Residential ovens have nowhere enough BTU ratings for quick enough
> recovery rates for stones to be of any real use other than imagined.

Oh, look. It's Sheldon offering yet more proof of his lack of education.
Pizza stones are a way to get temperatures *higher* than the thermostat
settings. Recovery time is a function of lots of variables, and largely
irrelevant when making a pizza at home. The heavier the stone the longer
the recovery time, but also the the les impact the pizza will have on
the stone. More thermal mass means better temperature retention.

> Commercial brick ovens are arranged so that their heating elements or
> flames are of significant magnitude and in *direct contact* with the
> stones, giving them a high rate of recovery.

Um, no. Not in direct contact. If gas flames, they would leave soot and
soon be useless for the purpose. If electric, they would heat-stress the
stones and shatter them. Both rely on radiation to heat the cooking
surfaces. Wood-fired ovens sometimes have fireboxes under them, and
other times build a fire inside the cooking chamber. Wood burns cooler
than gas.

Thye stones in commercial ovens are more massive and hold heat better.
And, yes, the heat sources are more forceful, but only becaused they
expect to cook more than one pizza and that BTU capacity is necessary
for volume cooking..

> When product is placed on
> stones in your wimpy home oven the instant moisture condensate
> immediately lowers the contact area temperature of the stone to below
> that of boiling water...

Pure nonsense. Lousy physics. Blowhole moronness.

> poached pizza crust, just great... then when
> the temperature finally begins to recover the poached soggy crust
> becomes leathery tough, not crisp.

Spoken like a true moron with no experience.

> And the thicker the stone the
> slower the recovery rate, so by buying the most expensive thickest
> pizza stones you're simply demonstrating that your IQ is ever lower.

<LOL> Could you be more clownish? The whole process you describe
*doesn't happen* so your description is worth your usual value.

> You're far better off with perforated baking pans, or screens... even
> the pizzerias now realize they can produce better product and at lower
> energy cost with pizza screens and that's what most use nowadays...

<LOL> More expertise from the wizard with *NO* restaurant experience.
Goes without saying; not true about screens. Using a screen has no
effects on energy costs; it merely makes it more forgiving and able to
absorb errors better. Pizza screens are intended for operations that
don't specialize in pizza. The ones with unskilled help, formula
preparations and unsophisticated clientele.

> darn things only cost like about $3... go to any on line commercial
> pizza supply site and you'll see pizza screens in a zillion sizes.
> Common sense should tell all but the lowest IQ imbeciles that there is
> no way to make a wimpy home oven operate like a commercial pizza oven,
> no way whatsoever, I don't care if you put your tombstone in it... the
> more crap stuffed into an oven the less efficient it becomes, even
> negates the advantage of convection ovens...

<LOL> And here, Shecky confuses microwave ovens with conventional or
convection ovens. By this moronic thinking, two baked potatoes would
take longer than one baked potato. That's clearly not the case.

> so go ahead, get the
> biggest baddest stones you can find. Unless you increase BTUs it's
> just an exercise in moronic mental masturbation.

With posts like this, Sheckele has the brilliance to discuss other
people's masturbation. <LOL>

> http://www.servu-online.com/Pizza-Eq...a-Screens-.asp

Wonderful. Another brilliant bit of research by our resident blowhole
moron. That proves nothing. As usual.

Pastorio

Sheldon wrote:
> salgud wrote:
>
>>Sheldon wrote:
>>
>>>Carol Garbo wrote:
>>>
>>>>You can also use the pizza stone for baking things like calzones and
>>>>crusty breads.
>>>
>>>Pizza stones are a gimmick, to separate the idiots from their dollars.
>>>Residential ovens have nowhere enough BTU ratings for quick enough
>>>recovery rates for stones to be of any real use other than imagined.
>>
>>I'm not sure on this one, dogturd.
>
>
> I see you're obviously not serious in receiving answers to your
> queries.
>
>
> <BIG SNIP>

<LOL>

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
> Sheldon wrote:
> > Dee Randall wrote:
> >
> >>We made pizza tonight. I let my stone heat 1 hour at 550. Each time the
> >>element comes on, it bakes the stone even hotter, eventually getting the
> >>stone as hot and hotter than the inside of oven temperature. Don't take my
> >>word for it, check the bread groups and google. I got this information from
> >>the scientific breadmaker experts.
> >
> > That must be a Magic Chef oven.
> >
> > That's not possible, least not on this planet... because if you can get
> > something inside your oven hotter than the oven temperature you've just
> > created energy out of nothing... free energy... you've solved all the
> > world's energy shortage problems. Your scientific breadmaker experts
> > are obviously just as stupid as you.
>
> Once again, our resident blowhole moron shows he's a moron with no real
> knowledge outside his moronic blowhole moronness.
>
> The element is *always* going to be hotter than the oven temperature
> when it's glowing. The fact that it cycles on and off means that getting
> the oven to a set temperature only needs part of the heat-generating
> capacity of the element. It's glowing hotter than any set temperature
> and heating the stone every time it comes on. It's heating the stone by
> both conduction from heated air and radiation (the glow) which is
> considerably hotter than the air.
>
> The temperature of the air in the oven isn't the same as the temperature
> from the radiant element. If it were, the broiler wouldn't brown top
> surfaces of foods. Put your thermometer up near the broiler element and
> see how long it survives, moron. Put some lead up near it and see if it
> melts, moron. Melting point of lead...? Look it up, ignorant blowhole moron.
>
> > The only way to create a hotter temperature inside an oven is to
> > increase the temperature until your pizza ignites, than while the pizza
> > is burning (giving up its energy) its flames will be hotter than the
> > oven temperature... of course you'll have nothing to eat but ash.
>
> Learn some physics, fatheaded, pontificating moron.
>
> Pastorio

This thread inspired me to make some pizza for dinner last night.

This bit of the thread had me curious as I could see at least
theoretically how a pizza stone directly absorbing the radiant energy
from the ovens element could heat above the ambient temperature above it
in the oven where the ovens temperature sensor is.

So when making my pizza I got out my Fluke 87 with 80TK thermocouple
probe to monitor the air temp near the top of the oven and my IR
thermometer to monitor the temperature of the pizza stone.

At the start, both thermometers were reading 65 degrees. I started the
oven heating to 550 degrees and periodically checked the temperatures.
As expected the pizza stone lagged behind due to it's thermal mass. The
pizza stone eventually made it to the 550 setting a short while after
the ambient oven air did.

I watched for some time while my pizza dough was rising and while I was
rolling / stretching the dough, but there was no overshoot in the
temperature of the pizza stone. It appears that the thermal mass of the
stone is too great for it to overshoot before it's re-radiated the
energy to the rest of the oven.

I expect that the bottom surface of the pizza stone experienced
temperatures in excess of the 550 degree setting, however the thermal
mass and lag prevented these higher temperatures from ever being
reflected in the top surface of the pizza stone.

At any rate, the pizzas came out great with the stone at 550.

Pete C.

On 28 Dec 2005 13:46:58 -0800, wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I have today cooked myself my first homemade pizza and apart from the
>fact i used wholemeal flour (which turned out quite nice) and it was
>baked on a rectangular baking tray i have to say they turned out very
>nice.
>
>Anyway, I would like to invest in a pizza stone so first of all what is
>the best type - marbel or granite (dont know if granite is the most
>common but it we have many qranite quarries here in Scotland)?
>
>Also, how is a stone supposed to be cleaned? I have read some articles
>and it seems a bit of a chore. Any tips?
>
>Cheers

check out one of these pizza stones...
http://ww2.williams-sonoma.com/cat/p...2981&cmsrc=sch
I remember putting it in the oven, turning the oven up as hot as it
would go 500 degrees, dusting the stone heavily with cornmeal in order
for the pizza not to stick, buying every variety of shredded cheese
available at the market...

Everyone in my family enjoyed the homemade pizza!

Bill

Bill wrote:
>
> check out one of these pizza stones...
> http://ww2.williams-sonoma.com/cat/p...2981&cmsrc=sch

The text is hipocritical:

"dense ceramic holds heat exceptionally well
"the ceramic is porous"

Hmmm... which is it?


> every variety of shredded cheese available at the market...

Like some 14 types of cheese... how'd the parmesan and feta go with the
bleu...


> Everyone in my family enjoyed the homemade pizza!

no one ever claimed Chronic Taste In Ass Disease ain't hereditary.

Sheldon wrote:
>

<snipped>

>
> > every variety of shredded cheese available at the market...
>
> Like some 14 types of cheese... how'd the parmesan and feta go with the
> bleu...

I can't say I've ever seen *shredded* feta or bleu cheese at any market.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
> >
> > > every variety of shredded cheese available at the market...
> >
> > Like some 14 types of cheese... how'd the parmesan and feta go with the
> > bleu...
>
> I can't say I've ever seen *shredded* feta or bleu cheese at any market.

Sure you have... just that they spell it "grated/crumbled".

On 31 Dec 2005 11:01:51 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:

>
>Pete C. wrote:
>> Sheldon wrote:
>> >
>> > > every variety of shredded cheese available at the market...
>> >
>> > Like some 14 types of cheese... how'd the parmesan and feta go with the
>> > bleu...
>>
>> I can't say I've ever seen *shredded* feta or bleu cheese at any market.
>
>Sure you have... just that they spell it "grated/crumbled".


Hmmm, I can crumble cheese with my hands, can you do the same
shredding - without any tools?

Of course you can, that why your ass is always so raw, your use those
shredders of your to wipe your ass. (ohhh, a shelliebabie post!)


jim

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:31:12 -0800, sf >
wrote:

>Honest. A good home made pizza doesn't need a blast furnace -
>probably because the door doesn't open as many times as a commercial
>oven does. I can do mine (size equivalent of an extra large) in about
>8 minutes at 475°.

Tell that too GOOD pizza bakers whose ovens are around 800 degrees!


------------
There are no atheists in foxholes
or in Fenway Park in an extra inning
game.
____

Cape Cod Bob

Delete the two "spam"s for email

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 13:30:19 -0800, "Kent" > wrote:

>Your pizza stone should be HEFTY and HEAVY. You heat it up for one hour at
>550F before your pizza goes on it.
>You NEVER take it out of the oven and wash it. In fact, water never touches
>it. Scrape it off when it needs scraping, and that's it.
>I have had my late brother's pizza stone on the lower oven rack for 25 years
>and everything is fine, particularly the pizza.
>Before plunging away at a gourmet store for yuppies, you might check a local
>restaurant supply house. That where we always buy our pizza paddles, the
>same ones that pizza houses buy.

OMG!! SOmeone in this group knows something. Amazing,
------------
There are no atheists in foxholes
or in Fenway Park in an extra inning
game.
____

Cape Cod Bob

Delete the two "spam"s for email

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:37:50 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> wrote:

>>>
>>> Also, how is a stone supposed to be cleaned? I have read some articles
>>> and it seems a bit of a chore. Any tips?
>
>The best tip of all -- use your oven cleaner; comes out brand-spankin' new.
>Dee Dee
>
STOP cleaning the damn thing. Carbon is good!
------------
There are no atheists in foxholes
or in Fenway Park in an extra inning
game.
____

Cape Cod Bob

Delete the two "spam"s for email

On 29 Dec 2005 19:55:09 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:

>
>Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>>
>> I have never used a pizza stone.
>
>You're missing nothing... pizza stones in a conventional oven are a
>joke on the unknowing.. A pizza screen or perforated pizza pan is much
>better... even makes it easy to do grilled pizza. Most pizzerias with
>real brick ovens are using pizza screens nowadays.

Maybe in Iowa.
------------
There are no atheists in foxholes
or in Fenway Park in an extra inning
game.
____

Cape Cod Bob

Delete the two "spam"s for email

On Sat 31 Dec 2005 10:34:52p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Cape Cod Bob?

> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 14:31:12 -0800, sf >
> wrote:
>
>>Honest. A good home made pizza doesn't need a blast furnace -
>>probably because the door doesn't open as many times as a commercial
>>oven does. I can do mine (size equivalent of an extra large) in about
>>8 minutes at 475°.
>
> Tell that too GOOD pizza bakers whose ovens are around 800 degrees!

I don't have to tell them anything. I never eat their pizzas.


--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
__________________________________________________ ________________
And if we enter a room full of manure, may we believe in the pony.

Pete C. wrote:
> "Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
>>Sheldon wrote:
>>
>>>Dee Randall wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>We made pizza tonight. I let my stone heat 1 hour at 550. Each time the
>>>>element comes on, it bakes the stone even hotter, eventually getting the
>>>>stone as hot and hotter than the inside of oven temperature. Don't take my
>>>>word for it, check the bread groups and google. I got this information from
>>>>the scientific breadmaker experts.
>>>
>>>That must be a Magic Chef oven.
>>>
>>>That's not possible, least not on this planet... because if you can get
>>>something inside your oven hotter than the oven temperature you've just
>>>created energy out of nothing... free energy... you've solved all the
>>>world's energy shortage problems. Your scientific breadmaker experts
>>>are obviously just as stupid as you.
>>
>>Once again, our resident blowhole moron shows he's a moron with no real
>>knowledge outside his moronic blowhole moronness.
>>
>>The element is *always* going to be hotter than the oven temperature
>>when it's glowing. The fact that it cycles on and off means that getting
>>the oven to a set temperature only needs part of the heat-generating
>>capacity of the element. It's glowing hotter than any set temperature
>>and heating the stone every time it comes on. It's heating the stone by
>>both conduction from heated air and radiation (the glow) which is
>>considerably hotter than the air.
>>
>>The temperature of the air in the oven isn't the same as the temperature
>>from the radiant element. If it were, the broiler wouldn't brown top
>>surfaces of foods. Put your thermometer up near the broiler element and
>>see how long it survives, moron. Put some lead up near it and see if it
>>melts, moron. Melting point of lead...? Look it up, ignorant blowhole moron.
>>
>>
>>>The only way to create a hotter temperature inside an oven is to
>>>increase the temperature until your pizza ignites, than while the pizza
>>>is burning (giving up its energy) its flames will be hotter than the
>>>oven temperature... of course you'll have nothing to eat but ash.
>>
>>Learn some physics, fatheaded, pontificating moron.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> This thread inspired me to make some pizza for dinner last night.
>
> This bit of the thread had me curious as I could see at least
> theoretically how a pizza stone directly absorbing the radiant energy
> from the ovens element could heat above the ambient temperature above it
> in the oven where the ovens temperature sensor is.
>
> So when making my pizza I got out my Fluke 87 with 80TK thermocouple
> probe to monitor the air temp near the top of the oven and my IR
> thermometer to monitor the temperature of the pizza stone.
>
> At the start, both thermometers were reading 65 degrees. I started the
> oven heating to 550 degrees and periodically checked the temperatures.
> As expected the pizza stone lagged behind due to it's thermal mass. The
> pizza stone eventually made it to the 550 setting a short while after
> the ambient oven air did.
>
> I watched for some time while my pizza dough was rising and while I was
> rolling / stretching the dough, but there was no overshoot in the
> temperature of the pizza stone. It appears that the thermal mass of the
> stone is too great for it to overshoot before it's re-radiated the
> energy to the rest of the oven.

If you heat it with the broiler on rather than just heating the oven on
a "bake" setting, it will overshoot.

> I expect that the bottom surface of the pizza stone experienced
> temperatures in excess of the 550 degree setting, however the thermal
> mass and lag prevented these higher temperatures from ever being
> reflected in the top surface of the pizza stone.

The bottom-heating process won't get the stone above oven setting
because it's relying on the air temp to do the heating.

Pastorio


> At any rate, the pizzas came out great with the stone at 550.
>
> Pete C.

On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 01:25:45 -0500, "Bob (this one)" <"Bob
> wrote:

>The bottom-heating process won't get the stone above oven setting
>because it's relying on the air temp to do the heating.
>
>Pastorio

Hi Bob,

With respect, you are wrong on this one...

I did it for years and easily had the stone 150F (carefully
measured) hotter than the highest air temperature of the
oven.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Bob (this one)" <"Bob > wrote in message
>
> The bottom-heating process won't get the stone above oven setting because
> it's relying on the air temp to do the heating.
>
> Pastorio

Not rue. There will also be infrared heating from electric elements or a
broiler element.

Three ways to heat. Conduction, convection, radiation.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Bob (this one)" <"Bob > wrote in message
> >
> > The bottom-heating process won't get the stone above oven setting because
> > it's relying on the air temp to do the heating.
> >
> > Pastorio
>
> Not rue. There will also be infrared heating from electric elements or a
> broiler element.
>
> Three ways to heat. Conduction, convection, radiation.

Precisely. But with radiation heat transfer proximity is of primary
importance, typical home ovens are not constructed to take advantage of
radiation heat transfer. With commercial baking ovens the heating
elements are typically situated intimately proximate to the oven's
brickwork, often set within slots or even through holes in the brick,
whereas it is via radiation that the bricks actually become signicantly
hotter than the oven chamber because then the oven chamber is heated
via conduction directly from the bricks rather than directly from the
elements. With a commecial oven the bricks are actually part and
parcel of the heating elements, essentially the bricks *are* the
heating elements. However, pizza stones added to a residential oven
cannot be situated so they can take advange of radiation heat transfer
to any meaningful degree, and in fact they tend to hinder the oven's
normal convection, even with forced convection ovens. And of course
residential elements are not nearly powerful enough, or configured
properly, to transfer meaningful thermal energy to slabs of stone. And
the fact that they take so long to heat (stone is a very good good
insulator precisely because it's a very poor conductor) is significant
in that once cooled they do not recover well, especially via
conduction. And stone can in fact be cooled remarkably rapidly. In
fact a slab of stone can be lava flow hot on one side and
simultaniously be stone cold on the other (again, stone is a lousy
conductor), which is why NASA uses ceramic tiles for space ship reentry
and which is *precisely* why pizza stones are essentially worthless.
Imagine, idiots are paying $30 for 40¢ worth of fire brick, just to
convince only themselves that they know about baking. And then the
imbecilic cooking supply ads (written probably by moronic restaurant
critic types who never actually cooked anytrhing) claim "porous" and
"dense"... which is it, can't be both. The very same idiot restaurant
critics who write prattle like the perfectly rare steak arrived at the
table steaming hot. duh

http://www.efunda.com/formulae/heat_...e/overview.cfm

"Sheldon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Bill wrote:
>>
>> check out one of these pizza stones...
>> http://ww2.williams-sonoma.com/cat/p...2981&cmsrc=sch
>
> The text is hipocritical:
>
> "dense ceramic holds heat exceptionally well
> "the ceramic is porous"
>
> Hmmm... which is it?

Hey...meat sock...explain why "holds heat" excludes "porous". Mommy can help
you with composition, spelling, and medicine.

Kenneth wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 01:25:45 -0500, "Bob (this one)" <"Bob
> > wrote:
>
>>The bottom-heating process won't get the stone above oven setting
>>because it's relying on the air temp to do the heating.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> With respect, you are wrong on this one...
>
> I did it for years and easily had the stone 150F (carefully
> measured) hotter than the highest air temperature of the
> oven.

Apologies; I wasn't very clear when I wrote the above. I was assuming
that oven was set on baking and the stone would be in the center of the
oven or closer to the top element, several inches away from the lower
element.

Proximity to the element is important for heating the stone over air
temperature. Thanks for your observation.

Pastorio

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Bob (this one)" <"Bob > wrote in message
>
>>The bottom-heating process won't get the stone above oven setting because
>>it's relying on the air temp to do the heating.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
> Not rue. There will also be infrared heating from electric elements or a
> broiler element.
>
> Three ways to heat. Conduction, convection, radiation.

To be sure. But radiation falls off as the square of the distance. I
wrote unclearly here, assuming the oven to be set for baking and the
stone high up in the oven.

You're, of course, correct.

Pastorio

Sheldon wrote:
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>>"Bob (this one)" <"Bob > wrote in message
>>
>>>The bottom-heating process won't get the stone above oven setting because
>>>it's relying on the air temp to do the heating.
>>>
>>>Pastorio
>>
>>Not rue. There will also be infrared heating from electric elements or a
>>broiler element.
>>
>>Three ways to heat. Conduction, convection, radiation.
>
>
> Precisely. But with radiation heat transfer proximity is of primary
> importance, typical home ovens are not constructed to take advantage of
> radiation heat transfer.

Broiler. End of your moronic diatribe. The rest is no more correct than
the first sentence.

> With commercial baking ovens the heating
> elements are typically situated intimately proximate to the oven's
> brickwork, often set within slots or even through holes in the brick,
> whereas it is via radiation that the bricks actually become signicantly
> hotter than the oven chamber because then the oven chamber is heated
> via conduction directly from the bricks rather than directly from the
> elements.


More bullshit. The elements are hotter than the air temperature in *all*
ovens. They cycle on and off to get a stable *range* of temperatures.

> With a commecial oven the bricks are actually part and
> parcel of the heating elements, essentially the bricks *are* the
> heating elements. However, pizza stones added to a residential oven
> cannot be situated so they can take advange of radiation heat transfer
> to any meaningful degree, and in fact they tend to hinder the oven's
> normal convection, even with forced convection ovens.

Putting stones on the bottom shelf or on the top shelf puts them
"proximate" to the elements.

> And of course
> residential elements are not nearly powerful enough, or configured
> properly, to transfer meaningful thermal energy to slabs of stone.

Nonsense. Empirical evidence contradicts this statement.

> And
> the fact that they take so long to heat (stone is a very good good
> insulator precisely because it's a very poor conductor)

Poor Sheldon doesn't understand much about thermal transfer and thermal
mass. And this statement is a bit too vague to credit. What does "so
long" mean in relative terms?

> is significant
> in that once cooled they do not recover well, especially via
> conduction.

Irrelevant. So how does this square with the glowing (heh) descriptions
about brick ovens?

> And stone can in fact be cooled remarkably rapidly. In
> fact a slab of stone can be lava flow hot on one side and
> simultaniously be stone cold on the other

Spoken like a guy who has never witnessed a lava flow. Lava flows aren't
slabs, they're liquid. If the lava flow is several hundred yards wide,
it can be cold on one side. But lava and pizza stones are radically
different and bringing them together in analogies shows a deep lack of
knowledge about both commercial ceramics and the nature of lava.

> (again, stone is a lousy
> conductor), which is why NASA uses ceramic tiles

Ceramics used on shuttles aren't stone and aren't like pizza stones.
They're porous because of the thermal properties that porosity offers.
Pizza stones are much more dense and made from different materials.

> for space ship reentry
> and which is *precisely* why pizza stones are essentially worthless.

Idiot. False comparison. False conclusion.

> Imagine, idiots are paying $30 for 40¢ worth of fire brick, just to
> convince only themselves that they know about baking.

Clownish raving only to demonstrate deeper ignorance than before.

> And then the
> imbecilic cooking supply ads

Like the ones for pizza screens that only unskilled bakers would use.

> (written probably by moronic restaurant
> critic types who never actually cooked anytrhing) claim "porous" and
> "dense"... which is it, can't be both. The very same idiot restaurant
> critics who write prattle like the perfectly rare steak arrived at the
> table steaming hot. duh

No matter how many diversionary brainfarts you offer, Sheldon, you're
simply wrong about this. Hurling insults to the four points of the
compass doesn't disguise your ignorance.

>
> http://www.efunda.com/formulae/heat_...e/overview.cfm

This offers Sheldon no support for his errors.

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
> Kenneth wrote:
> > On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 01:25:45 -0500, "Bob (this one)" <"Bob
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>The bottom-heating process won't get the stone above oven setting
> >>because it's relying on the air temp to do the heating.
> >>
> >>Pastorio
> >
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > With respect, you are wrong on this one...
> >
> > I did it for years and easily had the stone 150F (carefully
> > measured) hotter than the highest air temperature of the
> > oven.
>
> Apologies; I wasn't very clear when I wrote the above. I was assuming
> that oven was set on baking and the stone would be in the center of the
> oven or closer to the top element, several inches away from the lower
> element.
>
> Proximity to the element is important for heating the stone over air
> temperature. Thanks for your observation.
>
> Pastorio

The pizza stone was (and is) on the rack in the very bottom position of
the oven, perhaps an inch above the bake coil. This is the position that
it remains in full time, with 0-2 additional racks above depending on
what I'm baking.

It's a convection oven, but I left it in regular mode for the test.
Presumably convection would reduce the chances of pizza stone overshoot.
At any rate I did not observe any overshoot in a couple hours of
operation.

My assessment is that while it might be possible to get an overshoot, it
likely would take too much time for it to be a factor under normal home
use. If you're baking pizza or bread all day perhaps, but probably not
if you're just running two pizzas through for dinner.

Pete C.

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:09:42 GMT, "Pete C."
> wrote:

>My assessment is that while it might be possible to get an overshoot, it
>likely would take too much time for it to be a factor under normal home
>use. If you're baking pizza or bread all day perhaps, but probably not
>if you're just running two pizzas through for dinner.
>
>Pete C.

Hi Pete,

I certainly would not presume to tell you what happens in
your own oven, but I can tell what happened in mine.

I am curious though...

How did you measure the temperature of the stone when you
experimented?

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Doug Kanter wrote:
> "Sheldon" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Bill wrote:
> >>
> >> check out one of these pizza stones...
> >> http://ww2.williams-sonoma.com/cat/p...2981&cmsrc=sch
> >
> > The text is hipocritical:
> >
> > "dense ceramic holds heat exceptionally well
> > "the ceramic is porous"
> >
> > Hmmm... which is it?
>
> explain why "holds heat" excludes "porous".

Never learned to read writing, eh... porous excludes dense... oh, dense
one.

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:09:42 GMT, "Pete C."
> > wrote:
>
>>My assessment is that while it might be possible to get an overshoot, it
>>likely would take too much time for it to be a factor under normal home
>>use. If you're baking pizza or bread all day perhaps, but probably not
>>if you're just running two pizzas through for dinner.
>>
>>Pete C.
>
> Hi Pete,
>
> I certainly would not presume to tell you what happens in
> your own oven, but I can tell what happened in mine.
>
> I am curious though...
>
> How did you measure the temperature of the stone when you
> experimented?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Kenneth

Certainly I will not answer for Kenneth, but I take the temperature of my
stone with a infrared sensor. Point and click.
Dee Dee

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:13:56 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> wrote:

>
>Certainly I will not answer for Kenneth, but I take the temperature of my
>stone with a infrared sensor. Point and click.
>Dee Dee
>

Hi Dee,

I was not asking myself the question...<g>

Because I saw such a dramatic temperature differential for
years, I am a bit surprised when others don't.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
news
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:13:56 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>Certainly I will not answer for Kenneth, but I take the temperature of my
>>stone with a infrared sensor. Point and click.
>>Dee Dee
>>
>
> Hi Dee,
>
> I was not asking myself the question...<g>

Yes, I know, I screwed up -- LOL.
>
> Because I saw such a dramatic temperature differential for
> years, I am a bit surprised when others don't.
Kenneth

"You can lead to the water, but you can't make 'em drink"
Dee Dee

Kenneth wrote:
>
> On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:09:42 GMT, "Pete C."
> > wrote:
>
> >My assessment is that while it might be possible to get an overshoot, it
> >likely would take too much time for it to be a factor under normal home
> >use. If you're baking pizza or bread all day perhaps, but probably not
> >if you're just running two pizzas through for dinner.
> >
> >Pete C.
>
> Hi Pete,
>
> I certainly would not presume to tell you what happens in
> your own oven, but I can tell what happened in mine.
>
> I am curious though...
>
> How did you measure the temperature of the stone when you
> experimented?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

As noted previously, I used a Fluke 87 multimeter with TK80 thermocouple
adapter to measure the ambient oven temperature (I hung the thermocouple
near the top of the oven) and an IR thermometer to check the surface
temp of the pizza stone. Both instruments read within 1 degree of each
other at the start and both settled in within +/- 5 degrees after the
preheat (that variation largely due to opening the oven door to shoot
the IR readings).

Pete C.

Sheldon wrote:
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > "Bob (this one)" <"Bob > wrote in message
> > >
> > > The bottom-heating process won't get the stone above oven setting because
> > > it's relying on the air temp to do the heating.
> > >
> > > Pastorio
> >
> > Not rue. There will also be infrared heating from electric elements ora
> > broiler element.
> >
> > Three ways to heat. Conduction, convection, radiation.
>
> Precisely. But with radiation heat transfer proximity is of primary
> importance, typical home ovens are not constructed to take advantage of
> radiation heat transfer.

That's really not so true. The bit about proximity being of primary
importance in radiative heat transfer that is. What matters is the
energy that is incident on the stone. Now, admittedly the further the
stone is from the source, the more of the energy from the source that
will be incident on the walls of the oven rather than the stone. But
there's still quite a large portion of that energy that falls onto the
stone, and that won't be effected by distance (well, ok, ignoring the
air effects, but those'll be quite trivial.) Plus, the oven as a whole
is a pretty fair approximation of a blackbody, so most of the energy
that hits the walls will be reemitted too and eventually hit the stone.
Really, proximity is a very minor matter in this case. I recommend
looking up the Stefan-Boltzmann law and reading up on how radiative
heat transfer actually works.

>With commercial baking ovens the heating
> elements are typically situated intimately proximate to the oven's
> brickwork, often set within slots or even through holes in the brick,
> whereas it is via radiation that the bricks actually become signicantly
> hotter than the oven chamber because then the oven chamber is heated
> via conduction directly from the bricks rather than directly from the
> elements. With a commecial oven the bricks are actually part and
> parcel of the heating elements, essentially the bricks *are* the
> heating elements. However, pizza stones added to a residential oven
> cannot be situated so they can take advange of radiation heat transfer
> to any meaningful degree, and in fact they tend to hinder the oven's
> normal convection, even with forced convection ovens. And of course
> residential elements are not nearly powerful enough, or configured
> properly, to transfer meaningful thermal energy to slabs of stone. And
> the fact that they take so long to heat (stone is a very good good
> insulator precisely because it's a very poor conductor) is significant
> in that once cooled they do not recover well, especially via
> conduction. And stone can in fact be cooled remarkably rapidly.

This is also really terribly true. In fact, it's pretty much the
opposite of true and one of the main advantages of a stone. You're
right, it is a poor conductor, but that helps explain why it's slow to
cool down.

> In
> fact a slab of stone can be lava flow hot on one side and
> simultaniously be stone cold on the other (again, stone is a lousy
> conductor), which is why NASA uses ceramic tiles for space ship reentry

Comparing pizza stones to HRSI tiles is such an apples to oranges
comparison that I'm a bit amazed that anyone would make it. HRSI is
made from low-density silicon fibers, pizza stones are made from ...
rock. HRSI has many properties which are benificial to the extreme
environments involved in reentry. Pizza stones ... do not.

> and which is *precisely* why pizza stones are essentially worthless.
> Imagine, idiots are paying $30 for 40¢ worth of fire brick, just to
> convince only themselves that they know about baking. And then the
> imbecilic cooking supply ads (written probably by moronic restaurant
> critic types who never actually cooked anytrhing) claim "porous" and
> "dense"... which is it, can't be both. The very same idiot restaurant
> critics who write prattle like the perfectly rare steak arrived at the
> table steaming hot. duh
>
> http://www.efunda.com/formulae/heat_...e/overview.cfm

That site doesn't do one darned thing to support your case.

--
Ernest