nancree wrote:
> Good manners are, quite simply, consideration for other people.
>
> Your wife has got to a lot of trouble to prepare the meal, to set the
> table. You are setting the standard of behavior for your group.
>
> If this man is offending you and your family( as you have indicated),
> you have your family to consider. Take him aside, tell him to sit up,
> --tell him he is making your family uncomfortable, and you would like
> for him to show consideration for the rest of you.
>
> It would help him in the other areas of his life, too. Surely he is
> offending others where he eats, at a lunch counter, at work, etc. He
> needs help.
>
I would try a subtle approach. First, if there is a clear-headed family
member (wife) attached to him, try to find out if she's already lost
this battle. If you sense she is as odd as he, skip this step, and go
right towards asking him if the table or chair could be altered so he
could "sit up and eat like everyone else". Is this guy really tall? If
so, it can be a problem wedging the lower half under the table (I once
dated a 6'10" fellow and he couldn't fit under most tables...hence liked
the counter.
HTH
blacksalt
you could also write to dear abby and send him the clipping.

I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners. I
would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and vice
versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a few
basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the table
when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others, eat
with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and don't
entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents of
your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may harm
the dog.

As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to you
and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion however
you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or you
chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't see
myself as a manners Nazi.

I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes me
cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a restaurant.
The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything wrong.
I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be long
term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.

The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the table
for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the plate.
He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.

Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
family dinner or a restaurant?

Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?

David

Good manners are, quite simply, consideration for other people.

Your wife has got to a lot of trouble to prepare the meal, to set the
table. You are setting the standard of behavior for your group.

If this man is offending you and your family( as you have indicated),
you have your family to consider. Take him aside, tell him to sit up,
--tell him he is making your family uncomfortable, and you would like
for him to show consideration for the rest of you.

It would help him in the other areas of his life, too. Surely he is
offending others where he eats, at a lunch counter, at work, etc. He
needs help.

nancree wrote:
> Good manners are, quite simply, consideration for other people.
>
> Your wife has got to a lot of trouble to prepare the meal, to set the
> table. You are setting the standard of behavior for your group.
>
> If this man is offending you and your family( as you have indicated),
> you have your family to consider. Take him aside, tell him to sit
up,
> --tell him he is making your family uncomfortable, and you would like
> for him to show consideration for the rest of you.

Absolutely not. He is a guest in the home and you should never, ever,
correct the manners of a guest. If he is *that* offensive, he should
not be invited to your table again.

>
> It would help him in the other areas of his life, too. Surely he is
> offending others where he eats, at a lunch counter, at work, etc. He
> needs help.

It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
Mother.

As an aside, an observation: If the man has reached adulthood and
still has poor table manners it is unlikely that anything anyone says
to him will make one iota of difference.

-L.

"David Hare-Scott" > wrote in message
...
>I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners. I
> would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
> with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
> host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and
> vice
> versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a few
> basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the
> table
> when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others,
> eat
> with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and
> don't
> entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents of
> your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may
> harm
> the dog.
>
> As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to
> you
> and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion
> however
> you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or
> you
> chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't see
> myself as a manners Nazi.
>
> I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes me
> cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
> feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a
> restaurant.
> The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything
> wrong.
> I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
> bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
> the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be
> long
> term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.
>
> The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
> then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
> his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the
> table
> for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the
> plate.
> He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
> conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
> arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.
>
> Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
> family dinner or a restaurant?
>
> Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?
>
> David
>
>

You have my sympathies. I once worked at a company where one of the managers
had non-existent table manners. He sort of hunched over his plate and
shoveled food in like someone was going to take it away from him. If he had
something to say during this shoveling, he said it, while continuing the
shoveling. Non-speaking sounds were as disturbing as well.

At company events, those in the know would make sure they weren't sitting
next to or across from him, and never told newbies what to expect. It was
unpleasant to say the least. It astounded me that he made it to a managerial
level with those manners, but I would suspect that he wasn't invited to
meals where customers were also invited.

As for your family member/guest, perhaps chiding children about their
manners in his presence? Although something that subtle may not work.

Pointing it out to him at the table probably isn't a good idea either, but
if someone close to him could take him aside and talk to him. Make it sound
like you folks are really persnickety, and not that he's a piggy. That way
he saves face.

Or, come up with "new" table rules based on ethnicity of various dishes. Low
table, floor-sitting, and chopsticks might force him into new posture.

Whatever you do, you probably want to do it while this is all sort of new,
otherwise it's going to be hard to explain why you put up with him for a
couple years before mentioning it.

Good Luck.

In article >, "David
Hare-Scott" > wrote:

> The offender (adult male) sits with their

his

> chair way back from the
> table, then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid
> falling with his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half
> both arms on the table for balance. The result is that his face is
> about 6 inches from the plate. He sits up to speak most of the time
> but occasionally his dinner conversation emanates from his soup bowl.
> This must be very economical on arm movements while feeding but it
> looks really ugly and clumsy to me.
>
> Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an
> informal family dinner or a restaurant?

Well, no.

> Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so
> what?

You should. T his is the sort of behavior that can be career limiting
if done in the presence of the boss and/or clients. Someone needs to
suck it up and take him aside and kindly tell him he needs some work.
Have you any idea how he might cotton to such a conversation? Has it
EVER been brought up to him? If it has and he simply refuses to change
his ways then you all have to decide if you're going to ignore and
accept, stop inviting him to dinner, or nag him until you sufficiently
**** him off that he'll refuse to partake at your table.

Maybe the folks at the etiquette group have a better solution or
suggestion.
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> Arizona vacation pics added 3-24-05.
"I read recipes the way I read science fiction: I get to the end and
say,'Well, that's not going to happen.'" - Comedian Rita Rudner,
performance at New York, New York, January 10, 2005.

Barb replied:

>> table, then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid
>> falling with his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half
>> both arms on the table for balance. The result is that his face is
>> about 6 inches from the plate. He sits up to speak most of the time
>> but occasionally his dinner conversation emanates from his soup bowl.
>> This must be very economical on arm movements while feeding but it
>> looks really ugly and clumsy to me.
<snip>
> This is the sort of behavior that can be career limiting
> if done in the presence of the boss and/or clients. Someone needs to
> suck it up and take him aside and kindly tell him he needs some work.

Geez, you guys! This is a SPLENDID opportunity to have the family work as a
team! Here's what you do: At some prearranged signal, EVERYBODY should move
their chair as far back as possible, then adopt exactly the posture and
mannerisms of the offender.

I can just imagine...

Bob

David Hare-Scott wrote:
> [snip]
> I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine
> makes me cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated
> anything. I don't feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed
> if we were in a restaurant.

Don't invite him out with you to a restaurant. In the meantime,
uncringe yourself. In other words, so far it's just your problem, not
his.

> The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything
> wrong.

And if you tell him there is, in your opinion, something wrong with his
behavior, what will he take to be the underlying subtext? Is it, we
really like you but you may not be aware that your manners put people
off? Or is it, god I can hardly eat my food watching the spectacle you
make of yourself! Or is it, you're such a clod in comparison to me
that I want to urge you to come up to my loftier standard. I'm
exaggerating, but the point is that people often react strongly and
negatively to well-meaning criticism. Particularly when they don't
think there is a problem, as is the case here.

> I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard
> to bear.

So bear it anyway, or run the risk of embarassing and hurting him.

> Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
> the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to
> be long term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.

Why not grin and bear it? I was always taught that tolerance of others
was an essential component of good manners. You're saying none of your
other friends have any annoying habits or mannerisms? Which do you
choose to bring to their attention?

> [snip description] ...it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.
>
So what?

> Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an
> informal family dinner or a restaurant?

>From your tone, my guess is that your concept of "informal" and mine
differ. I want guests at my informal table to enjoy themselves, which
they won't if I make them uncomfortable. You've already said you'd be
embarrassed in a restaurant with him.
>
> Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so
what?
>
If he becomes family, then the closest family member might consider it,
or if he becomes a really close friend whom you know so well you can
tailor the message to be effective but not insulting. Until then all
you've really said is that the way he eats is unusual and you don't
like it. If you make something of it before you have a close
relationship with him, you will never get that close.

I would make an exception and consider saying something if the person
were not an adult or were from another culture but you haven't
indicated that to be the case. -aem

David Hare-Scott wrote:
>
<snip for brevity>
>
> The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the
table,
> then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling
with
> his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on
the table
> for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the
plate.
> He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
> conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very
economical on
> arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to
me.
>
> Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an
informal
> family dinner or a restaurant?
>
> Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so
what?
>
I think you are over-reacting. As some other posters have said, this
man is a guest in your house and entitled to the host's and hostess's
perfect courtesy. And IMO that courtesy includes ensuring his comfort,
refraining from criticism, ignoring lapses (that don't endanger people
or damage property, etc).

His dining table posture is unusual but there is nothing "disgusting"
happening, really. Apparently, he isn't eating with his hands or
snarfing his food mouth to plate; he isn't blowing his nose in his
napkin; he isn't talking with his mouth full or spewing food about;
nothing is dribbling out of his mouth; he isn't spitting out food he
dislikes. In fact, from what you've said, he tries to be agreeable and
join in the conversation.

He's a regular guest (and it doesn't sound as tho he's a friend of
yours) For some reason you're being coy about his relationship with the
family, but I assume he's a special friend or fiance of a woman in your
family. Later, when (if) he becomes a member of the family his spouse
might take up the task of scooting his chair closer to the table.

In the meantime, lighten up.

Mac

In article >, "Bob"
> wrote:

> Barb replied:
>
> >> table, then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To
> >> avoid falling with his face in the meal he then lay both elbows
> >> and half both arms on the table for balance. The result is that
> >> his face is about 6 inches from the plate. He sits up to speak
> >> most of the time but occasionally his dinner conversation emanates
> >> from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on arm movements
> >> while feeding but itlooks really ugly and clumsy to me. <snip>

> > This is the sort of behavior that can be career limiting if done in
> > the presence of the boss and/or clients. Someone needs to suck it
> > up and take him aside and kindly tell him he needs some work.

> Geez, you guys! This is a SPLENDID opportunity to have the family
> work as a team! Here's what you do: At some prearranged signal,
> EVERYBODY should move their chair as far back as possible, then adopt
> exactly the posture and mannerisms of the offender.

> I can just imagine...
>
> Bob


LOL! Shame on you! If the offensive guest were born into the family,
yeah, maybe; if he's not a member of the family now, that All Family act
might just get him out the front door never to be seen again unless he's
also possessed of an exceptional sense of humor. What's your backup
plan? "-)
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> Arizona vacation pics added 3-24-05.
"I read recipes the way I read science fiction: I get to the end and
say,'Well, that's not going to happen.'" - Comedian Rita Rudner,
performance at New York, New York, January 10, 2005.

"aem" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> David Hare-Scott wrote:
>> [snip]
>> I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine
>> makes me cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated
>> anything. I don't feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed
>> if we were in a restaurant.
>
> Don't invite him out with you to a restaurant. In the meantime,
> uncringe yourself. In other words, so far it's just your problem, not
> his.

Good point. As hosts, your task is to make your guests feel welcome and
comfortable. While this person's table behavior does seem odd there is
nothing really rude about it, is there? You and your family should relax and
enjoy the meal and company.

>> The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything
>> wrong.]

And what exactly is wrong other than the fact that he does not sit and eat
the way you think he should?

>
> Why not grin and bear it? I was always taught that tolerance of others
> was an essential component of good manners. You're saying none of your
> other friends have any annoying habits or mannerisms? Which do you
> choose to bring to their attention?
>

And how many of your friends are resisting saying something to you about
your own behavior that they don't like?

A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was holding a
state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the finger bowls were
brought around, the king picked his up and drank the contents. The Queen
immediately did the same, followed by all the other guests. Now *that's*
manners!


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

David Hare-Scott wrote:
<big snip>
>
> The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the
table,
> then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling
with
> his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on
the table
> for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the
plate.
> He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
> conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very
economical on
> arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to
me.
>
> Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an
informal
> family dinner or a restaurant?


Way too much info about YOU (snipped), nothing much about the guest...
perhaps he has a physical disability (which of course is none of your
beeswax)... otherwise methinks you *grossly* exaggerate. If you can
spend so much time observing/criticising other's minutia then it's your
table manners that are in dire need of remedy... QUIT STARING AT
PEOPLE!

Unlike you the man is obviously enjoying his food. I dispise diners
who act as though the table is at the UN, that they're there to discuss
world events and behave as though no one is eating. There's plenty of
time before and after dinner for earth shattering current events... why
don't you just look in your own dish and shut the **** up and eat! I
for one would much rather hear the lip smacking and slurping of those
in the throes of ogasmic dining than the snooty din of arrogant
baloney. You sir are the "offender", and a snob.

So what did you serve, Campbells Tomato Soup, Mrs. Pauls Fish Sticks,
and Ring Dings. The man was being polite, by not bitching about "What
kind shit is this?"

Sheldon

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in
. com:

> A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was
> holding a state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the
> finger bowls were brought around, the king picked his up and drank the
> contents. The Queen immediately did the same, followed by all the
> other guests. Now *that's* manners!
>

LOL!!!

Andy

--
"If you can't do it naturally, then fake it."
- Alfred Hitchcock
Spoken to Ingrid Bergman

On Sat 26 Mar 2005 07:09:52a, Peter Aitken wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was
> holding a state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the
> finger bowls were brought around, the king picked his up and drank the
> contents. The Queen immediately did the same, followed by all the other
> guests. Now *that's* manners!

Hmmm... Tepid water, probably with a bit of lemon. Palate cleanser?

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

"Sheldon" > wrote:
>spend so much time observing/criticising other's minutia then it's your
>table manners that are in dire need of remedy... QUIT STARING AT
>PEOPLE!
Sheldon, I think I would be quite a popular guest in a traditional
Chinese home - you know, slurping, belching (well, maybe not an
audible belch)- not being afraid to admit that you enjoy the food. I
do have to occasionally eat meals with a guy (upper-level management
type) who seems to be fairly sophisticated in general, but never fails
to blow his nose at the table. Disgusting.

Peter Aitken wrote:

<snip for brevity>
>
> A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was
holding a
> state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the finger
bowls were
> brought around, the king picked his up and drank the contents. The
Queen
> immediately did the same, followed by all the other guests. Now
*that's*
> manners!

Indeed. One of our (U.S.) presidents was not quite so polite with his
guests. President Coolidge was presiding at a dinner, and was seen to
pour cream/milk in his saucer. The other guests followed suit (and
rumor has it that at least one began to sip from the saucer). Coolidge
smiled and then placed his saucer on the floor, where his cat was
waiting for the treat.

Mac

AlleyGator wrote:
> "Sheldon" > wrote:
> >spend so much time observing/criticising other's minutia then it's
your
> >table manners that are in dire need of remedy... QUIT STARING AT
> >PEOPLE!
> Sheldon, I think I would be quite a popular guest in a traditional
> Chinese home - you know, slurping, belching (well, maybe not an
> audible belch)-

Where did you acquire that concept regarding Chinese people.

not being afraid to admit that you enjoy the food. I
> do have to occasionally eat meals with a guy (upper-level management
> type) who seems to be fairly sophisticated in general, but never
fails
> to blow his nose at the table. Disgusting.

I see nothing terrible about an occasional discrete nose blowing,
provided it's not into the table linen. I'm pretty certain you and the
OP have not been in the military... yoose two whiny wusses sure sound
like mamma's boys... yoose infants wouldn't last two hours in boot
camp... yoose need to grow up, grow some intestinal fortitude.

Sheldon

"Sheldon" > wrote:
>I see nothing terrible about an occasional discrete nose blowing,
>provided it's not into the table linen. I'm pretty certain you and the
>OP have not been in the military... yoose two whiny wusses sure sound
>like mamma's boys... yoose infants wouldn't last two hours in boot
>camp... yoose need to grow up, grow some intestinal fortitude.
>
>Sheldon
>
I don't wanna grow up (bad cue for a song) - I'm not talking about a
meal with the guys at a campout. I'm talking about a nice place -
blowing your nose at the table, in a resturant, is low-class. I
don't mean a sniff - I mean a honk. Wet snot sound - the kind that
makes your throat slam shut.

David Hare-Scott > wrote in message
...
[text of guest's style vs. host's elided]
> Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about
> it? If so what?

No; it's a no-win situation no matter how you approach it.

You have to decide if the long-term relationship you're cultivating is
worth the 30-minute trial at every mealtime.

The Ranger
---
"I'm not allowed to kill you; that's against the rules. But you'd be
amazed at what you can survive."
-- Jafar, Aladdin 2

<snip>

I
>don't mean a sniff - I mean a honk. Wet snot sound - the kind that
>makes your throat slam shut.

This made me cry that I laughed so hard. You have quite a way with
words...

Ginny

I think the oldest English rule is to do what the hostess does, and she goes
first. I believe it stems form the Victorian penchant for trying all things
new, (and practically speaking, it was damn unlikely you would how to eat
some steamed malay root)
She makes the first move on every dish, and you follow her lead - same
utensil, her manners, etc. You then know how and when and with what.

Story goes that Queen Victoria was hosting a political state dinner with
the Raj of some large Indian state.
He picked up the finger bowl (scented with floating rose petals) and
proceeded to drink out of it, much to the chagrin of the aghast guests.
Queen Victoria immediately proceeded to pick up her finger bowl and sip
from it, and the others followed her lead - important guest saved from
embarrassment by the first rules of hosting - what the hostess does is
proper, and the hostess goes first.

"David Hare-Scott" > wrote in message
...
> I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners.
I
> would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
> with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
> host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and
vice
> versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a few
> basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the
table
> when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others,
eat
> with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and
don't
> entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents of
> your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may
harm
> the dog.
>
> As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to
you
> and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion
however
> you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or
you
> chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't see
> myself as a manners Nazi.
>
> I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes me
> cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
> feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a
restaurant.
> The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything
wrong.
> I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
> bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
> the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be
long
> term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.
>
> The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
> then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
> his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the
table
> for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the
plate.
> He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
> conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
> arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.
>
> Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
> family dinner or a restaurant?
>
> Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?
>
> David
>
>

"-L." >, if that's their real name, wrote:

>It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
>corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
>Mother.

Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty well-known to
us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your mother teach you
anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those elbows to yourself."

Warning to those attending the cook-in.

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

"Bob" >, if that's their real name, wrote:

>Geez, you guys! This is a SPLENDID opportunity to have the family work as a
>team! Here's what you do: At some prearranged signal, EVERYBODY should move
>their chair as far back as possible, then adopt exactly the posture and
>mannerisms of the offender.
>
>I can just imagine...

You are an evil genius. Where have you been all my life?

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

I believe there are two first rules that apply to most English/Western
European dinners -
the hostess goes first on every dish, and what the hostess does
constitutes proper manners (utensil, manner of eating the dish, etc.
Probably done in part because of the Victorian penchant for eating all kinds
of new and strange things that often only the host knew how to eat, and for
a few other reasons)

The story goes that Queen Victoria was hosting a state dinner for the very
important Raja of some large Indian state. In the course of the meal, he
picked up the rose-petal-decorated finger bowl and drank from it, much the
shock and chagrin of the aghast guests.
Queen Victoria promptly picked up her finger bowl and drank from it,
pinkie slightly up. The other guests then drank from theirs, as was then
made proper for that meal by the hostess, and a political crisis was
averted.

"David Hare-Scott" > wrote in message
...
> I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners.
I
> would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
> with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
> host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and
vice
> versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a few
> basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the
table
> when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others,
eat
> with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and
don't
> entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents of
> your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may
harm
> the dog.
>
> As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to
you
> and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion
however
> you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or
you
> chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't see
> myself as a manners Nazi.
>
> I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes me
> cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
> feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a
restaurant.
> The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything
wrong.
> I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
> bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked on
> the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be
long
> term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.
>
> The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
> then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
> his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the
table
> for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the
plate.
> He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
> conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
> arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.
>
> Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
> family dinner or a restaurant?
>
> Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?
>
> David
>
>

, if that's their real name, wrote:

>One of our (U.S.) presidents was not quite so polite with his
>guests. President Coolidge was presiding at a dinner, and was seen to
>pour cream/milk in his saucer. The other guests followed suit (and
>rumor has it that at least one began to sip from the saucer). Coolidge
>smiled and then placed his saucer on the floor, where his cat was
>waiting for the treat.

ROFLMAO! Thanks for sharing that. <G>

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

Damsel in dis Dress > wrote in
:

> "-L." >, if that's their real name, wrote:
>
> >It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
> >corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
> >Mother.
>
> Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty
> well-known to us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your
> mother teach you anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those
> elbows to yourself."
>
> Warning to those attending the cook-in.
>
> Carol
>

Way outa my league...round here it's more like "No applause for the
belches!!!"

--
No Bread Crumbs were hurt in the making of this Meal.
Type 2 Diabetic 1AC 7.3, 5.5, 5.6 mmol
Continuing to be Manitoban

Monsur Fromage du Pollet >, if that's their real name,
wrote:

>Damsel in dis Dress > wrote in
:
>
>> "-L." >, if that's their real name, wrote:
>>
>> >It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
>> >corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
>> >Mother.
>>
>> Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty
>> well-known to us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your
>> mother teach you anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those
>> elbows to yourself."
>>
>> Warning to those attending the cook-in.
>
>Way outa my league...round here it's more like "No applause for the
>belches!!!"

Crash and I are actually VERY informal. When we belch and say, "Excuse
me," the non-belcher reassures the belcher, "That's okay, you'll do better
next time." A really GOOD belch yields this comment, "Very ladylike."

Carol ::burp::

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

Barb replied:

>> Geez, you guys! This is a SPLENDID opportunity to have the family
>> work as a team! Here's what you do: At some prearranged signal,
>> EVERYBODY should move their chair as far back as possible, then adopt
>> exactly the posture and mannerisms of the offender.
>
> LOL! Shame on you! If the offensive guest were born into the family,
> yeah, maybe; if he's not a member of the family now, that All Family act
> might just get him out the front door never to be seen again unless he's
> also possessed of an exceptional sense of humor. What's your backup
> plan? "-)


I bet Queen Victoria and her court would have done it! :-þ

The notion is simple enough: Either the guy thinks his behavior is
acceptable (in which case he won't see anything wrong with other people
following suit), or he doesn't realize how it looks (in which case he'll
gain insight from seeing other people doing the same thing he does, and
maybe he'll mend his ways). If he's really emotionally fragile enough to be
driven away by something like that, then he's doomed anyway; there's BOUND
to be some incident sooner or later which would be at least as traumatic.

Bob

On Sat 26 Mar 2005 10:48:59a, Damsel in dis Dress wrote in
rec.food.cooking:

> Monsur Fromage du Pollet >, if that's their real
> name, wrote:
>
>>Damsel in dis Dress > wrote in
m:
>>
>>> "-L." >, if that's their real name, wrote:
>>>
>>> >It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
>>> >corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
>>> >Mother.
>>>
>>> Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty
>>> well-known to us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your
>>> mother teach you anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those
>>> elbows to yourself."
>>>
>>> Warning to those attending the cook-in.
>>
>>Way outa my league...round here it's more like "No applause for the
>>belches!!!"
>
> Crash and I are actually VERY informal. When we belch and say, "Excuse
> me," the non-belcher reassures the belcher, "That's okay, you'll do
> better next time." A really GOOD belch yields this comment, "Very
> ladylike."
>
> Carol ::burp::
>

This lady has class!

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

I once heard the tale of what has to be the worst table manners. A
friend told me about a woman he'd heard of, who was visiting someone for
tea. The host, a student, poured the tea, and then opened a milk
bottle, and before passing it to the guest, took a big swig directly
from it!

I was always taught, from a young age, not to drink straight from the
bottle, but apparently not everyone is taught this.

--
SteveR
(throw away the dustbin, send to stever@... instead)

Humans are way too stupid to be dumb animals.
http://www.accidentalcreditor.org.uk/

Wayne Boatwright >, if that's their real name,
wrote:

>On Sat 26 Mar 2005 10:48:59a, Damsel in dis Dress wrote in
>rec.food.cooking:
>
>> Crash and I are actually VERY informal. When we belch and say, "Excuse
>> me," the non-belcher reassures the belcher, "That's okay, you'll do
>> better next time." A really GOOD belch yields this comment, "Very
>> ladylike."
>>
>> Carol ::burp::
>
>This lady has class!

Which is why you married me. Wait! That was supposed to be a secret.
Sorry, Dumplin'.

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

sorry about this reply - it was sent during a spell-check and I thought it
didn't go, so I redid it in the following post - they should be basically
the same content.

"--" > wrote in message
news
> I think the oldest English rule is to do what the hostess does, and she
goes
> first. I believe it stems form the Victorian penchant for trying all
things
> new, (and practically speaking, it was damn unlikely you would how to eat
> some steamed malay root)
> She makes the first move on every dish, and you follow her lead - same
> utensil, her manners, etc. You then know how and when and with what.
>
> Story goes that Queen Victoria was hosting a political state dinner with
> the Raj of some large Indian state.
> He picked up the finger bowl (scented with floating rose petals) and
> proceeded to drink out of it, much to the chagrin of the aghast guests.
> Queen Victoria immediately proceeded to pick up her finger bowl and sip
> from it, and the others followed her lead - important guest saved from
> embarrassment by the first rules of hosting - what the hostess does is
> proper, and the hostess goes first.
>
> "David Hare-Scott" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I am assuming that everybody has some sort of standard of table manners.
> I
> > would also assume that what constitutes acceptable manners varies widely
> > with culture and context. Usually I tend to go with the flow - if the
> > host/ess looks formal and concerned about such things I smarten up and
> vice
> > versa. However informal the situation my be, there are (I believe) a
few
> > basic rules that you should keep. Such as: clean hands, no feet on the
> table
> > when the food arrives, avoid spilling food/drink on the table or others,
> eat
> > with your hands only where the food suits it and/or custom demands and
> don't
> > entertain others with the noises you make or the sight of the contents
of
> > your mouth. Don't throw bones over your shoulder to the dog as you may
> harm
> > the dog.
> >
> > As for which implement you use or exactly how you hold it; that's up to
> you
> > and how important you think it is, it will not cause me indigestion
> however
> > you do it. If your elbow should happen to rest on the table somewhat or
> you
> > chew your chop bone it will not alter the stream of my blood. I don't
see
> > myself as a manners Nazi.
> >
> > I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine makes
me
> > cringe. So far I have not said or (I hope) indicated anything. I don't
> > feel insulted by them but I would be embarassed if we were in a
> restaurant.
> > The individual concerned clearly does not see that there is anything
> wrong.
> > I don't want to see him embarassed or hurt but I find his style hard to
> > bear. Other members of the family share my disquiet and have remarked
on
> > the situation to me. Our relationship with this fellow is likely to be
> long
> > term so 'grin and bear it' is not an appealing choice.
> >
> > The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
> > then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling
with
> > his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the
> table
> > for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the
> plate.
> > He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
> > conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical
on
> > arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.
> >
> > Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
> > family dinner or a restaurant?
> >
> > Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so
what?
> >
> > David
> >
> >
>
>

-- wrote:
> I think the oldest English rule is to do what the hostess does, and
she goes
> first. I believe it stems form the Victorian penchant for trying all
things
> new, (and practically speaking, it was damn unlikely you would how to
eat
> some steamed malay root)
> She makes the first move on every dish, and you follow her lead -
same
> utensil, her manners, etc. You then know how and when and with what.

You watched way too many olde "sycho-fantasy" sailing movies.

Sheldon Kidd

David Hare-Scott wrote:

>
> The offender (adult male) sits with their chair way back from the table,
> then so he can reach the plate he leans far forward. To avoid falling with
> his face in the meal he then lay both elbows and half both arms on the table
> for balance. The result is that his face is about 6 inches from the plate.
> He sits up to speak most of the time but occasionally his dinner
> conversation emanates from his soup bowl. This must be very economical on
> arm movements while feeding but it looks really ugly and clumsy to me.
>
> Do you think this style of eating is reasonable for either an informal
> family dinner or a restaurant?
>
> Should (or can) we, the family, try to do something about it? If so what?

Maybe he was raised by dogs. Does he snap at you if your hand gets close to his
plate? Your description reminded me of a SCTV skit where Andrea Martin plays
the part of a woman who had been raised by a family of Canada Geese. For lunch
she put a bag of pop corn into a big bowl of water and stuck her head in the
bowl to bob for corn.

Unfortunately, it is bad manners to point out bad manners. The best you can do
is to set a good example.
If it really bothers you, try the old summer camp song.

Jimmy Jimmy if you're abel
Get your elbows off the table
This is not a horse's stable
But a public eating table

:-)



Ever watch Rick Steve's shows where he goes into a fancy European restaurant,
orders an elegant dinner and then holds his fork like a motorcycle handlebar?

"Sheldon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> -- wrote:
> > I think the oldest English rule is to do what the hostess does, and
> she goes
> > first. I believe it stems form the Victorian penchant for trying all
> things
> > new, (and practically speaking, it was damn unlikely you would how to
> eat
> > some steamed malay root)
> > She makes the first move on every dish, and you follow her lead -
> same
> > utensil, her manners, etc. You then know how and when and with what.
>
> You watched way too many olde "sycho-fantasy" sailing movies.

Actually, its from several sources - the Marine embassy-duty school at San
Diego, a couple books on international business etiquette used when I was
travelling overseas to set up foreign partnerships for the companies, and
materials I have read adjunct to the restoration of the Victorian summer
home I have recently bought.

To be measured, there is implicitly a reference. That is, you will be
judged against some reference - and in dining settings, that reference for
etiquette will be the hostess, or in some countries where the women do not
have that role, the host.
Do what they do and wait for their lead, and you will usually come off as
being acceptably couth.

My mother was always one for reserved proper etiquette at the table, and
IMHO, it has been the deal-maker in many instances.

PS - I don't even remembering watching sailing movies - its a joke around
here about my viewing is just enough to recharge the DVD clock battery-
besides, my tastes run to foreign language films.

>
> Sheldon Kidd
>

Damsel in dis Dress wrote:
> Monsur Fromage du Pollet >, if that's their real name,
> wrote:
>
>
>>Damsel in dis Dress > wrote in
m:
>>
>>
>>>"-L." >, if that's their real name, wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>It is not the place of a host to correct a guest. If he is to be
>>>>corrected, it is the place of someone close to him - his spouse or
>>>>Mother.
>>>
>>>Anyone who would be found at our dinner table would be pretty
>>>well-known to us. We'd have no problem yelling, "Hey! Didn't your
>>>mother teach you anything? Pull up to the table and get keep those
>>>elbows to yourself."
>>>
>>>Warning to those attending the cook-in.
>>
>>Way outa my league...round here it's more like "No applause for the
>>belches!!!"
>
>
> Crash and I are actually VERY informal. When we belch and say, "Excuse
> me," the non-belcher reassures the belcher, "That's okay, you'll do better
> next time." A really GOOD belch yields this comment, "Very ladylike."
>
> Carol ::burp::

Yep. In our house, we say "God bless you."

Pastorio

"--" > wrote:
>PS - I don't even remembering watching sailing movies - its a joke around
>here about my viewing is just enough to recharge the DVD clock battery-
>besides, my tastes run to foreign language films.
So, you mean I'm not the only one who watches the "Masseur Ichi" films
with subtitles on IFC?

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 14:09:52 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
> wrote:

>"aem" > wrote in message
roups.com...
>> David Hare-Scott wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>> I now have the case where a person who comes to my house to dine

snipped....

>A lovely story, perhaps apocryphal, about Queen Victoria. She was
holding a
>state dinner for the king of some African tribe. When the finger
bowls were
>brought around, the king picked his up and drank the contents. The
Queen
>immediately did the same, followed by all the other guests. Now
*that's*
>manners!

I have a similar one about my paternal grand mote hr who was raised
very properly by her Scottish mother. My grandmother lived on a very
rural sugar plantation in Hawaii. Her lunch was always very formal-
never a sandwich. So one day some visiting Indian scientists came to
visit the plantation and my grandfather invited them to lunch at his
house.

My grandmother didn't have much time to prepare and told the cook to
just make more of the same stuff. So at lunch when the artichokes
came to the table, my grandmother noticed that the scientists were
eating the entire artichoke leaf and so did she. I believe the sharp
pointy tips had been cut off.

It is a family favorite story.

I on the other hand live very informally, although equally rural-ly.

aloha,
Thunder
smithfarms.com
Farmers of 100% Kona Coffee
& other Great Stuff

AlleyGator wrote:

> "--" > wrote:
> >PS - I don't even remembering watching sailing movies - its a joke around
> >here about my viewing is just enough to recharge the DVD clock battery-
> >besides, my tastes run to foreign language films.
> So, you mean I'm not the only one who watches the "Masseur Ichi" films
> with subtitles on IFC?

I like most of those foreign films. Bear in mind that most of them are the best
of their native language films. They are certainly better than the crap coming
out of Hollywood.

A lot of people are turned off by reading subtitles. I can speak / understand
some French and German. I start off reading the subtitles and after a while I
am listening to the dialogue and understanding most of it.

"--" >, if that's their real name, wrote:

> My mother was always one for reserved proper etiquette at the table, and
>IMHO, it has been the deal-maker in many instances.

We had a plate, paper napkin, and properly placed knife, fork, and spoon,
even if we were just having tomato soup and a grilled cheese sandwich. And
if you improperly reached for something, she'd stab the back of your hand
with a fork. Emily Post, eat your heart out!

Nowadays, I just put out whichever utensils will actually be used. Paper
napkins have been replaced by paper towels. I never stab Crash.

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon