http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html

"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.

--

"I'm the master of low expectations."

GWB, aboard Air Force One, 04Jun2003

In article >,
Michel Boucher > wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
>
> "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.

You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me

In article >, Michel Boucher
> wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html


We've been going round and round on this in another newsgroup. An extreme
vegetarian group has been spreading this untrue story. Atkins died from a
fall. His organs failed, causing fluid retention. His excess weight was
all due to fluid.

Perhaps others have a different idea what "obese" means, but someone who
puts on 60 pounds in a week is not obese, they are deadly sick.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

On 11 Feb 2004 22:58:27 GMT, Michel Boucher >
wrote:

>
>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
>
>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>

I'm no fan of his diet, but a colleague did see Atkins at a meeting in
1999 and reports that he was not overweight at that time. I'm willing
to give them the benefit of the doubt in attributing some of the
"obesity" to other health problems. Unfortunately in refusing an
autopsy, the family left themselves open to speculation. Unless, of
course, there was something (diet-related?) that they wanted to hide.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

>Perhaps others have a different idea what "obese" means, but someone who
>puts on 60 pounds in a week is not obese, they are deadly sick.
>
>--
>Dan Abel
>Sonoma State University
>AIS


My father did both in his life. Once, when his systems were shutting down, he
gained 40 lbs. in a week, and, yes, went into congestive heart failure. Just
before his death in August, he lost nearly 58 lbs. in just over a week.

When I was in my third trimester of pregnancy, I developed toxemia. I was
immediately hospitalized. I was eating nothing but the hospital diet, which
was tightly controlled for calories, fat, sodium and protein. Still, in the
last 4 weeks of my pregnancy, I gained just under fifty lbs.

Sheila

Curly Sue wrote:

> Unless, of course, there was something (diet-related?) that they wanted to hide.


Like a highly refined Cheeze-It sitting in his stomach... Now *that*
could be devastating...

~john

Dan Abel wrote:

> In article >, Michel Boucher
> > wrote:
>
>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
>
> We've been going round and round on this in another newsgroup. An extreme
> vegetarian group has been spreading this untrue story. Atkins died from a
> fall. His organs failed, causing fluid retention. His excess weight was
> all due to fluid.
>
> Perhaps others have a different idea what "obese" means, but someone who
> puts on 60 pounds in a week is not obese, they are deadly sick.

Some pretty shabby stuff going on with all that "news" coverage.

"The late Dr. Robert Atkins is being smeared for his alleged obesity
at the time of his death, by a phony doctors organization that has
been exposed as a front group for People for the Ethical Treatment of
Animals (PETA) and has been censured by the American Medical
Association (AMA)."
<http://www.consumerfreedom.com/release_detail.cfm?PR_ID=48>

Atkins's cardiac problem had no medical or physiological correlation
with his (or any) diet.

From <http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/4/25-466719.html>

"We have been treating this condition, cardiomyopathy, for almost two
years," explains Patrick Fratellone MD, Dr. Atkins' personal physician
and cardiologist, "and during the course of diagnosis, we discovered
that Dr. Atkins' coronary arteries were normal as diagnosed by an
angiogram performed at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital on the upper
west side of New York City in April of 2001. Clearly, his own
nutritional protocols have left him, at the age of 71, with an
extraordinarily healthy cardiovascular system. Unfortunately, the
infection-related cardiomyopathy is totally another matter."

From Gannett <http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=106&sid=169199>

"Millions of people who follow Atkins' low-carb, meat-lovers' diet
were caught off guard by a report Tuesday in The Wall Street Journal
that the cardiologist weighed 258 at the time of his death and had
heart disease. The new document shows that the 6-foot-tall Atkins
weighed 195 on admission to the hospital after a fall on April 8,
2003. He went into a coma and died April 17 at age 72."

Pastorio

In article
>,
Cindy Fuller > wrote:

> In article >,
> Michel Boucher > wrote:
>
> > http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
> >
> > "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>
> You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
> my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
> First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
> Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
> weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
> The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
> do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>
> Cindy

Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV
fluids in patients who are dying. :-P
Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.

If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article
mentioned CHF), it would not surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.

I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katra at centurytel dot net>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

"Cindy Fuller" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Michel Boucher > wrote:
>
> > http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
> >
> > "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>
> You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
> my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
> First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
> Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
> weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
> The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
> do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>
> Cindy
>

Another point you might have taught is that Dr. Atkins being obese at the
time of his death. assuming it is true, has absolutely no relevance to the
validity of the diet he championed.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken wrote:
> "Cindy Fuller" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In article >,
>> Michel Boucher > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
>>>
>>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>>
>>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
>>my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
>>First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
>>Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
>>patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
>>weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
>>The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
>>do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>>
>>Cindy
>>
>
>
> Another point you might have taught is that Dr. Atkins being obese at the
> time of his death. assuming it is true, has absolutely no relevance to the
> validity of the diet he championed.
>
>

Hmmm, I wonder is she has her own ax to grind. The weight was due to his
medical condition, if I read correctly. But then, did not the Grape
Nuts' man, Ewell Gibbons, also die from heart problems?


jim

Curly Sue wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2004 22:58:27 GMT, Michel Boucher >
> wrote:
>
>
>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
>>
>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>>
>
>
> I'm no fan of his diet, but a colleague did see Atkins at a meeting in
> 1999 and reports that he was not overweight at that time. I'm willing
> to give them the benefit of the doubt in attributing some of the
> "obesity" to other health problems. Unfortunately in refusing an
> autopsy, the family left themselves open to speculation. Unless, of
> course, there was something (diet-related?) that they wanted to hide.
>
> Sue(tm)
> Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!


Careful, Sue, there's a conspiracy right there behind you and its gonna
get you! Keep your eyes oooooopen, wide open, for those black
helicopters when you drive home late at night.


jim

Katra wrote:
>
> In article
> >,
> Cindy Fuller > wrote:

> > You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
> > my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
> > First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
> > Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> > patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
> > weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
> > The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
> > do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.

> Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV
> fluids in patients who are dying. :-P
> Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.
>
> If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article
> mentioned CHF), it would not surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.
>
> I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.

I'm not sure where I'm coming in on this subject, I haven't been
following along. (laugh) I'm getting to the point were the words
Atkins and carbs make my eyes glaze over.

At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and
I wondered, am I completely out of touch? Every picture I saw of him,
he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese. Then I heard
about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died.
Oh, that makes sense. It's not fat.

Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an
(Atkins advocate?) doctor who mentioned this report. Whoever made
the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me
that someone on life support gained that much weight from hospital
food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing down
on full sugar Jello. Come on!

nancy

"JimLane" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Aitken wrote:
> > "Cindy Fuller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>In article >,
> >> Michel Boucher > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
> >>>
> >>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
> >>
> >>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
> >>my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
> >>First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
> >>Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> >>patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
> >>weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
> >>The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
> >>do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
> >>
> >>Cindy
> >>
> >
> >
> > Another point you might have taught is that Dr. Atkins being obese at
the
> > time of his death. assuming it is true, has absolutely no relevance to
the
> > validity of the diet he championed.
> >
> >
>
> Hmmm, I wonder is she has her own ax to grind. The weight was due to his
> medical condition, if I read correctly. But then, did not the Grape
> Nuts' man, Ewell Gibbons, also die from heart problems?
>
>

Dr. Atkins did not die from heart problems but from a fall. He had a heart
problem caused by a viral infection.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Katra wrote:
> >
> > In article
> > >,
> > Cindy Fuller > wrote:
>
> > > You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
> > > my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
> > > First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
> > > Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> > > patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
> > > weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
> > > The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
> > > do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>
> > Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV
> > fluids in patients who are dying. :-P
> > Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.
> >
> > If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article
> > mentioned CHF), it would not surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.
> >
> > I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.
>
> I'm not sure where I'm coming in on this subject, I haven't been
> following along. (laugh) I'm getting to the point were the words
> Atkins and carbs make my eyes glaze over.
>
> At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and
> I wondered, am I completely out of touch? Every picture I saw of him,
> he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese. Then I heard
> about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died.
> Oh, that makes sense. It's not fat.
>
> Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an
> (Atkins advocate?) doctor who mentioned this report. Whoever made
> the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
> he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me
> that someone on life support gained that much weight from hospital
> food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing down
> on full sugar Jello. Come on!
>
> nancy

Not from food but from IV fluids - that's the claim at least.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message

> > At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and
> > I wondered, am I completely out of touch? Every picture I saw of him,
> > he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese. Then I heard
> > about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died.
> > Oh, that makes sense. It's not fat.
> >
> > Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an
> > (Atkins advocate?) doctor who mentioned this report. Whoever made
> > the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
> > he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me
> > that someone on life support gained that much weight from hospital
> > food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing down
> > on full sugar Jello. Come on!
> >
> > nancy
>
> Not from food but from IV fluids - that's the claim at least.

That's precisely my point.

nancy

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:18:04 -0500, Nancy Young
> wrote:



>At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and
>I wondered, am I completely out of touch? Every picture I saw of him,
>he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese. Then I heard
>about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died.
>Oh, that makes sense. It's not fat.
>
>Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an
>(Atkins advocate?) doctor who mentioned this report. Whoever made
>the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
>he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me
>that someone on life support gained that much weight from hospital
>food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing down
>on full sugar Jello. Come on!
>

He was in a coma - of course, being in a coma probably helps a patient
can tolerate hospital food. (I know, I know...IV/tube only)

Boron

Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:18:04 -0500, Nancy Young

> >Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an
> >(Atkins advocate?) doctor who mentioned this report. Whoever made
> >the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
> >he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me
> >that someone on life support gained that much weight from hospital
> >food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing down
> >on full sugar Jello. Come on!
> >
>
> He was in a coma - of course, being in a coma probably helps a patient
> can tolerate hospital food. (I know, I know...IV/tube only)

(laughing!!) Exactly. Unless someone was sneaking in and shoving
pasta down his throat, I don't see how someone in a coma can gain
that much (any??) weight. Those wacky food tubes and all.

nancy

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:38:58 GMT, Cindy Fuller
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Michel Boucher > wrote:
>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
>>
>> "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>
>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
>my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
>First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
>Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
>patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
>weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
>The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
>do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>

I asked an expert today who said that it's certainly conceivable that
he could have gained 20 lb from fluids in that time period. He
suggested that the remainder of Atkin's excess weight could be
explained if he was taking steroids over the previous few years for
his heart problem.

The family's report of him gaining 60 lb in 8 days is unlikely, but
OTOH, it's unfair of that other group and/or the media to attribute
his excess weight to his Diet or suggest that his diet would have kept
him slim with the particular health problems he had.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

In article >,
Katra > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> Cindy Fuller > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Michel Boucher > wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
> > >
> > > "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
> >
> > You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
> > my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
> > First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
> > Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> > patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
> > weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
> > The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
> > do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
> >
> > Cindy
>
> Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV
> fluids in patients who are dying. :-P
> Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.
>
> If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article
> mentioned CHF), it would not surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.
>
> I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.

But for someone with documented congestive heart failure, which Atkins
supposedly had because of the cardiomyopathy, a fluid restriction is
usually warranted.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:34:03 -0500, Nancy Young
> wrote:

>Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:18:04 -0500, Nancy Young
>
>> >Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an
>> >(Atkins advocate?) doctor who mentioned this report. Whoever made
>> >the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
>> >he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me
>> >that someone on life support gained that much weight from hospital
>> >food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing down
>> >on full sugar Jello. Come on!
>> >
>>
>> He was in a coma - of course, being in a coma probably helps a patient
>> can tolerate hospital food. (I know, I know...IV/tube only)
>
>(laughing!!) Exactly. Unless someone was sneaking in and shoving
>pasta down his throat, I don't see how someone in a coma can gain
>that much (any??) weight. Those wacky food tubes and all.
>
>nancy

If the admit and death weights were accurate, there is really nothing
other than edema that could account for it.

Boron

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Aitken wrote:
> >
> > "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
>
> > > At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and
> > > I wondered, am I completely out of touch? Every picture I saw of him,
> > > he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese. Then I heard
> > > about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died.
> > > Oh, that makes sense. It's not fat.
> > >
> > > Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an
> > > (Atkins advocate?) doctor who mentioned this report. Whoever made
> > > the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
> > > he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me
> > > that someone on life support gained that much weight from hospital
> > > food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing down
> > > on full sugar Jello. Come on!
> > >
> > > nancy
> >
> > Not from food but from IV fluids - that's the claim at least.
>
> That's precisely my point.
>
> nancy

It may be your point but it was not in your message.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Boron Elgar wrote:

> If the admit and death weights were accurate, there is really nothing
> other than edema that could account for it.



Lets not forget that Mr. Olympia would also be classified as "obese".
Body Weight and Body Fat are two entirely different things...

~john

"Curly Sue" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:38:58 GMT, Cindy Fuller
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Michel Boucher > wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
> >>
> >> "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
> >
> >You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
> >my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
> >First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
> >Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> >patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
> >weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
> >The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
> >do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
> >
>
> I asked an expert today who said that it's certainly conceivable that
> he could have gained 20 lb from fluids in that time period. He
> suggested that the remainder of Atkin's excess weight could be
> explained if he was taking steroids over the previous few years for
> his heart problem.
>
> The family's report of him gaining 60 lb in 8 days is unlikely, but
> OTOH, it's unfair of that other group and/or the media to attribute
> his excess weight to his Diet or suggest that his diet would have kept
> him slim with the particular health problems he had.
>
> Sue(tm)

Exactly. Why people are so obsessed with Dr. Atkins's weight is beyond me.
Well, no, it's not really beyond me - it is yet another example of the
terminal stupidity that is so common on this newsgroup. Even if he did weigh
260 (or whatever) pounds, so what? Maybe he would have weighed 400 if not
for the diet. Maybe his willpower failed him and he went off the diet.
Think, people!


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Levelwave© wrote:

> Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>> If the admit and death weights were accurate, there is really nothing
>> other than edema that could account for it.
>
>
>
>
> Lets not forget that Mr. Olympia would also be classified as "obese".
> Body Weight and Body Fat are two entirely different things...
>
> ~john

Actually, that is why the better measurement is BMI (body mass index.)

BTW, it's more than common to see patients dying in an edematous state;
the infusion of massive quantities of fluids and Rx along with a low
albumin and immobility all contribute to this.

Rich

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.

Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Peter Aitken wrote:
> > >
> > > "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
> >
> > > > At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and
> > > > I wondered, am I completely out of touch? Every picture I saw of him,
> > > > he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese. Then I heard
> > > > about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died.
> > > > Oh, that makes sense. It's not fat.
> > > >
> > > > Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an
> > > > (Atkins advocate?) doctor who mentioned this report. Whoever made
> > > > the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
> > > > he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me
> > > > that someone on life support gained that much weight from hospital
> > > > food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing down
> > > > on full sugar Jello. Come on!
> > > >
> > > > nancy
> > >
> > > Not from food but from IV fluids - that's the claim at least.
> >
> > That's precisely my point.
> >
> > nancy
>
> It may be your point but it was not in your message.
>
> --
> Peter Aitken

Hmmm. Seems other people got it. Life support, but he's eating
Jello? No. Sorry you don't recognise sarcasm when you see it.

nancy

Curly Sue wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:38:58 GMT, Cindy Fuller
> > wrote:
>
>
>>In article >,
>>Michel Boucher > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
>>>
>>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>>
>>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
>>my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
>>First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
>>Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
>>patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
>>weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
>>The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
>>do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.

And that's pretty much how it happened. A quart of water weighs just
at 2.2 pounds. Considering the concentrations of nutrients and the
fact of his taking prednisone and his organs going into shutdown, it's
not surprising given that they were taking extreme measures.

> I asked an expert today who said that it's certainly conceivable that
> he could have gained 20 lb from fluids in that time period. He
> suggested that the remainder of Atkin's excess weight could be
> explained if he was taking steroids over the previous few years for
> his heart problem.
>
> The family's report of him gaining 60 lb in 8 days

It wasn't the family's report, it's the hospitals. They're the ones
who said he weighed 195 when he was admitted and weighed 258 when he
died. It's edema,,plain adn simple

Bob

> is unlikely, but
> OTOH, it's unfair of that other group and/or the media to attribute
> his excess weight to his Diet or suggest that his diet would have kept
> him slim with the particular health problems he had.
>
> Sue(tm)
> Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

Peter Aitken wrote:

> Exactly. Why people are so obsessed with Dr. Atkins's weight is beyond me.
> Well, no, it's not really beyond me - it is yet another example of the
> terminal stupidity that is so common on this newsgroup. Even if he did weigh
> 260 (or whatever) pounds, so what? Maybe he would have weighed 400 if not
> for the diet. Maybe his willpower failed him and he went off the diet.
> Think, people!

Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next marathon.
THINK, PETER! He went into the hospital at 195. Checked out much
larger. All the while IN A COMA.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:

> Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next marathon.
> THINK, PETER! He went into the hospital at 195. Checked out much
> larger. All the while IN A COMA.


Yeah, but aren't IV's nothing but sugar water? If so that is strictly
*not* Atkins' Approved... So it's no wonder he gained 40 lbs in 8
days... If they had followed Atkins' own advice and used Splenda IV's he
would have died a respectable 195lbs... some people just don't get it

~john

Levelwave© wrote:
>
> Nancy Young wrote:
>
> > Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next marathon.
> > THINK, PETER! He went into the hospital at 195. Checked out much
> > larger. All the while IN A COMA.
>
> Yeah, but aren't IV's nothing but sugar water? If so that is strictly
> *not* Atkins' Approved... So it's no wonder he gained 40 lbs in 8
> days... If they had followed Atkins' own advice and used Splenda IV's he
> would have died a respectable 195lbs... some people just don't get it

(laughing!) Shut up! John.

nancy

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:26:59 -0500, Bob > wrote:

>Curly Sue wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:38:58 GMT, Cindy Fuller
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article >,
>>>Michel Boucher > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
>>>>
>>>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>>>
>>>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
>>>my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
>>>First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
>>>Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
>>>patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
>>>weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
>>>The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
>>>do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>
>And that's pretty much how it happened. A quart of water weighs just
>at 2.2 pounds. Considering the concentrations of nutrients and the
>fact of his taking prednisone and his organs going into shutdown, it's
>not surprising given that they were taking extreme measures.
>
>> I asked an expert today who said that it's certainly conceivable that
>> he could have gained 20 lb from fluids in that time period. He
>> suggested that the remainder of Atkin's excess weight could be
>> explained if he was taking steroids over the previous few years for
>> his heart problem.
>>
>> The family's report of him gaining 60 lb in 8 days
>
>It wasn't the family's report, it's the hospitals. They're the ones
>who said he weighed 195 when he was admitted and weighed 258 when he
>died. It's edema,,plain adn simple
>
>Bob

I thought some wacko group managed to get ahold of the records, made a
statement, and the family rebutted the contention that he was obese by
claiming the weight was edema. I haven't heard that the hospital
"weighed in" on the issue.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

In article >,
Levelwave(C) > wrote:

> Nancy Young wrote:
>
> > Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next marathon.
> > THINK, PETER! He went into the hospital at 195. Checked out much
> > larger. All the while IN A COMA.
>
>
> Yeah, but aren't IV's nothing but sugar water? If so that is strictly
> *not* Atkins' Approved... So it's no wonder he gained 40 lbs in 8
> days... If they had followed Atkins' own advice and used Splenda IV's he
> would have died a respectable 195lbs... some people just don't get it
>
> ~john

The standard D5 IV (5% glucose in water) has 170 kcal per liter, D10 has
340 kcal per liter. Ain't nobody going to get fat on that amount of
kcal, especially in a condition of physiologic stress. Splenda is not
absorbed from the gut, so it would be a foreign substance in the
bloodstream.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> > Exactly. Why people are so obsessed with Dr. Atkins's weight is beyond
me.
> > Well, no, it's not really beyond me - it is yet another example of the
> > terminal stupidity that is so common on this newsgroup. Even if he did
weigh
> > 260 (or whatever) pounds, so what? Maybe he would have weighed 400 if
not
> > for the diet. Maybe his willpower failed him and he went off the diet.
> > Think, people!
>
> Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next marathon.
> THINK, PETER! He went into the hospital at 195. Checked out much
> larger. All the while IN A COMA.
>
> nancy

Don't be a twit, Nancy. Some people are claiming that he weighed 260
*before* he went into the hospital, and that is what I am talking about, as
anyone with the intelligence of a toaster would realize.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Cindy Fuller wrote:

> In article >,
> Levelwave(C) > wrote:
>
>
>>Nancy Young wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next marathon.
>>>THINK, PETER! He went into the hospital at 195. Checked out much
>>>larger. All the while IN A COMA.
>>
>>
>>Yeah, but aren't IV's nothing but sugar water? If so that is strictly
>>*not* Atkins' Approved... So it's no wonder he gained 40 lbs in 8
>>days... If they had followed Atkins' own advice and used Splenda IV's he
>>would have died a respectable 195lbs... some people just don't get it
>>
>>~john
>
>
> The standard D5 IV (5% glucose in water) has 170 kcal per liter, D10 has
> 340 kcal per liter. Ain't nobody going to get fat on that amount of
> kcal, especially in a condition of physiologic stress. Splenda is not
> absorbed from the gut, so it would be a foreign substance in the
> bloodstream.
>
> Cindy
>
It's the H2O that is infused, and the low albumin state that causes it
to leak into the lymphatic vessels and interstitial and 3rd spaces. Has
nothing to do with the glucose or the food intake!!

Go to any ICU and you'll see how accumulative measures, correlate with
increased weight.

Rich

Rich

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.

On 02/12/2004 5:18 PM, in article
, "Cindy
Fuller" > opined:

> In article >,
> Levelwave(C) > wrote:
>
>> Nancy Young wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next marathon.
>>> THINK, PETER! He went into the hospital at 195. Checked out much
>>> larger. All the while IN A COMA.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, but aren't IV's nothing but sugar water? If so that is strictly
>> *not* Atkins' Approved... So it's no wonder he gained 40 lbs in 8
>> days... If they had followed Atkins' own advice and used Splenda IV's he
>> would have died a respectable 195lbs... some people just don't get it
>>
>> ~john
>
> The standard D5 IV (5% glucose in water) has 170 kcal per liter, D10 has
> 340 kcal per liter. Ain't nobody going to get fat on that amount of
> kcal, especially in a condition of physiologic stress. Splenda is not
> absorbed from the gut, so it would be a foreign substance in the
> bloodstream.
>
> Cindy

You are a stupid ****.

Try and remove emotion from your posts and engage in honest debate.
--
================================================== ==================
Who's the black private dick that's a sex machine to all the chicks?
================================================== ==================

Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Peter Aitken wrote:
> >
> > > Exactly. Why people are so obsessed with Dr. Atkins's weight is beyond
> me.
> > > Well, no, it's not really beyond me - it is yet another example of the
> > > terminal stupidity that is so common on this newsgroup. Even if he did
> weigh
> > > 260 (or whatever) pounds, so what? Maybe he would have weighed 400 if
> not
> > > for the diet. Maybe his willpower failed him and he went off the diet.
> > > Think, people!
> >
> > Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next marathon.
> > THINK, PETER! He went into the hospital at 195. Checked out much
> > larger. All the while IN A COMA.
> >
> > nancy
>
> Don't be a twit, Nancy. Some people are claiming that he weighed 260
> *before* he went into the hospital, and that is what I am talking about, as
> anyone with the intelligence of a toaster would realize.

Hello, dimwit, and that's an insult to dimwits, read the article to
which I was replying and try to put it into context. I mean, don't
hurt your brain or anything, you need what's left.

nancy

Cindy Fuller wrote:

> The standard D5 IV (5% glucose in water) has 170 kcal per liter, D10 has
> 340 kcal per liter. Ain't nobody going to get fat on that amount of
> kcal, especially in a condition of physiologic stress. Splenda is not
> absorbed from the gut, so it would be a foreign substance in the
> bloodstream.


That'n went plum right over your head...

~john

Nancy Young > wrote in
:

> Peter Aitken wrote:
>>
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Peter Aitken wrote:
>> >
>> > > Exactly. Why people are so obsessed with Dr. Atkins's weight is
>> > > beyond
>> me.
>> > > Well, no, it's not really beyond me - it is yet another example
>> > > of the terminal stupidity that is so common on this newsgroup.
>> > > Even if he did
>> weigh
>> > > 260 (or whatever) pounds, so what? Maybe he would have weighed
>> > > 400 if
>> not
>> > > for the diet. Maybe his willpower failed him and he went off the
>> > > diet. Think, people!
>> >
>> > Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next
>> > marathon. THINK, PETER! He went into the hospital at 195. Checked
>> > out much larger. All the while IN A COMA.
>> >
>> > nancy
>>
>> Don't be a twit, Nancy. Some people are claiming that he weighed 260
>> *before* he went into the hospital, and that is what I am talking
>> about, as anyone with the intelligence of a toaster would realize.
>
> Hello, dimwit, and that's an insult to dimwits, read the article to
> which I was replying and try to put it into context. I mean, don't
> hurt your brain or anything, you need what's left.
>
> nancy
>

But have they found his pillows yet?

--
Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on nothing but food
and water.
--------
FIELDS, W. C.

In article >,
Nancy Young > wrote:

> Katra wrote:
> >
> > In article
> > >,
> > Cindy Fuller > wrote:
>
> > > You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
> > > my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
> > > First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
> > > Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> > > patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
> > > weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
> > > The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
> > > do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>
> > Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV
> > fluids in patients who are dying. :-P
> > Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.
> >
> > If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article
> > mentioned CHF), it would not surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.
> >
> > I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.
>
> I'm not sure where I'm coming in on this subject, I haven't been
> following along. (laugh) I'm getting to the point were the words
> Atkins and carbs make my eyes glaze over.
>
> At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and
> I wondered, am I completely out of touch? Every picture I saw of him,
> he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese. Then I heard
> about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died.
> Oh, that makes sense. It's not fat.
>
> Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an
> (Atkins advocate?) doctor who mentioned this report. Whoever made
> the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
> he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me
> that someone on life support gained that much weight from hospital
> food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing down
> on full sugar Jello. Come on!
>
> nancy

He was in a coma...
How could he "eat"?

If someones says it was not purely fluid gain, they are full of feces
and anti-low carb. :-P

What a bunch of ass holes!

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katra at centurytel dot net>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article
>,
Cindy Fuller > wrote:

> In article >,
> Katra > wrote:
>
> > In article
> > >,
> > Cindy Fuller > wrote:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > Michel Boucher > wrote:
> > >
> > > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10....ap/index.html
> > > >
> > > > "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
> > >
> > > You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in
> > > my nutrition class today. Many of my students are nursing majors.
> > > First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's NYC
> > > Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> > > patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body
> > > weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days.
> > > The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to
> > > do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
> > >
> > > Cindy
> >
> > Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV
> > fluids in patients who are dying. :-P
> > Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.
> >
> > If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article
> > mentioned CHF), it would not surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.
> >
> > I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.
>
> But for someone with documented congestive heart failure, which Atkins
> supposedly had because of the cardiomyopathy, a fluid restriction is
> usually warranted.
>
> Cindy

Yah, ok, so tell that to the god damned cardiologist in charge!

My mom gained 30 lbs. in a week from IV fluids on a ****ing ventilator!
When she went in, she was already suffering from CHF secondary to
pulmonary hypertension. The doctor said she was suffering from "fluid
overload" and they STILL ran the IV at 60mls per hour!!!

The ****ers drowned and killed an already dying woman. :-( Her urine
output was nil since her blood pressure was about 60/40, even on
Dopamine.

Sounds like they did the same thing to Dr. Atkins...

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katra at centurytel dot net>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

Katra wrote:

> He was in a coma...
> How could he "eat"?
>
> If someone says it was not purely fluid gain, they are full of feces
> and anti-low carb. :-P
>
> What a bunch of assholes!
>
> K.

You know, Katra. You have to quit being so shy. Come out of your
shell. Say what you really mean instead of sugar-coating everything. <G>

Bob