On 2018-12-08 5:08 PM, cshenk wrote:
> Dave Smith wrote:
>

>> FWIW.... there are minimum wages for servers here. It is lower for
>> those serving alcohol, but it currently $12.20 /hr here.
>
> A waitress may only make 1.25 an hour and be expected to 'make of the
> rest in tips' which she then has to split with the cook and bus boy
> (cook and busboy make over minimum wage already).
>

I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.

Having eaten in places like Germany and the Netherlands, where
restaurant prices are a little higher than they are here, but include
tax and service, I like the idea of looking at the menu price and
knowing that we had two appetizers at $10, two entrees at $20, and a
bottle of wine for $30, then dessert and coffee for $10 each and the
bill is $110 than to have get see the menu prices 10% lower and then
getting a bill with taxes as (14% here) and then being expected to tip
$15 or more on top of that.

I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
add 15% or more.

On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:47:24 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2018-12-08 5:08 PM, cshenk wrote:
>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>
>>> FWIW.... there are minimum wages for servers here. It is lower for
>>> those serving alcohol, but it currently $12.20 /hr here.
>>
>> A waitress may only make 1.25 an hour and be expected to 'make of the
>> rest in tips' which she then has to split with the cook and bus boy
>> (cook and busboy make over minimum wage already).
>>
>
>I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
>cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>
>Having eaten in places like Germany and the Netherlands, where
>restaurant prices are a little higher than they are here, but include
>tax and service, I like the idea of looking at the menu price and
>knowing that we had two appetizers at $10, two entrees at $20, and a
>bottle of wine for $30, then dessert and coffee for $10 each and the
>bill is $110 than to have get see the menu prices 10% lower and then
>getting a bill with taxes as (14% here) and then being expected to tip
>$15 or more on top of that.
>
>I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
>when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
>add 15% or more.
>
I don't like the tip added in style - no guarantee the servers really
get it, no encouragement for them to be pleasant. I like to decide
for myself how great the service was. I do a percentage because
that's the easier way to do it.

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:54:17 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> I don't like the tip added in style - no guarantee the servers really
> get it, no encouragement for them to be pleasant. I like to decide
> for myself how great the service was. I do a percentage because
> that's the easier way to do it.
>
Me, too.

On 12/8/2018 6:13 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:54:17 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>>
>> I don't like the tip added in style - no guarantee the servers really
>> get it, no encouragement for them to be pleasant. I like to decide
>> for myself how great the service was. I do a percentage because
>> that's the easier way to do it.
>>
> Me, too.
>
I agree with you both.

Jill

On 2018-12-08 5:53 PM, wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:47:24 -0500, Dave Smith

>> I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
>> when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
>> add 15% or more.
>>
> I don't like the tip added in style - no guarantee the servers really
> get it, no encouragement for them to be pleasant. I like to decide
> for myself how great the service was. I do a percentage because
> that's the easier way to do it.

There may not be a guarantee that they server would get, but you want to
be able to hold the purse strings like you would the strings of a puppet
to make sure they dance to your tune to get their tip. You want to be
able to withhold the tip and deny them a good wage if your server gets
stuck with a table of 15 that leads to the kitchen and wait staff having
to deal with their orders.

On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:23:21 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2018-12-08 5:53 PM, wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:47:24 -0500, Dave Smith
>
>>> I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
>>> when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
>>> add 15% or more.
>>>
>> I don't like the tip added in style - no guarantee the servers really
>> get it, no encouragement for them to be pleasant. I like to decide
>> for myself how great the service was. I do a percentage because
>> that's the easier way to do it.
>
>There may not be a guarantee that they server would get, but you want to
>be able to hold the purse strings like you would the strings of a puppet
>to make sure they dance to your tune to get their tip. You want to be
>able to withhold the tip and deny them a good wage if your server gets
>stuck with a table of 15 that leads to the kitchen and wait staff having
>to deal with their orders.
>
Er no. I go for a meal and if the server is pleasant, does not
continually hover over me, but smiles and is just - nice - then I
leave a nice tip. If they are hung over, or sharp, or crash the
plates down in front of me, then I do not leave any tip.

On 2018-12-08 8:47 p.m., wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:23:21 -0500, Dave Smith

>> There may not be a guarantee that they server would get, but you want to
>> be able to hold the purse strings like you would the strings of a puppet
>> to make sure they dance to your tune to get their tip. You want to be
>> able to withhold the tip and deny them a good wage if your server gets
>> stuck with a table of 15 that leads to the kitchen and wait staff having
>> to deal with their orders.
>>
> Er no. I go for a meal and if the server is pleasant, does not
> continually hover over me, but smiles and is just - nice - then I
> leave a nice tip. If they are hung over, or sharp, or crash the
> plates down in front of me, then I do not leave any tip.
>

Knowing that they are making minimum wage and expected to make it up it
tips, you stiff them on the tip if you is something displeases you about
the service?
This is an example of the sort of thing that makes me question the
tipping culture.

On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 21:02:28 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2018-12-08 8:47 p.m., wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:23:21 -0500, Dave Smith
>
>>> There may not be a guarantee that they server would get, but you want to
>>> be able to hold the purse strings like you would the strings of a puppet
>>> to make sure they dance to your tune to get their tip. You want to be
>>> able to withhold the tip and deny them a good wage if your server gets
>>> stuck with a table of 15 that leads to the kitchen and wait staff having
>>> to deal with their orders.
>>>
>> Er no. I go for a meal and if the server is pleasant, does not
>> continually hover over me, but smiles and is just - nice - then I
>> leave a nice tip. If they are hung over, or sharp, or crash the
>> plates down in front of me, then I do not leave any tip.
>>
>
>Knowing that they are making minimum wage and expected to make it up it
>tips, you stiff them on the tip if you is something displeases you about
>the service?
>This is an example of the sort of thing that makes me question the
>tipping culture.

It's interesting that Lucretia has the right-wing view he Underpay
them and only if they please people enough, will they make enough to
live off.

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 9:06:19 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 21:02:28 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
> >On 2018-12-08 8:47 p.m., wrote:
> >> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:23:21 -0500, Dave Smith
> >
> >>> There may not be a guarantee that they server would get, but you want to
> >>> be able to hold the purse strings like you would the strings of a puppet
> >>> to make sure they dance to your tune to get their tip. You want to be
> >>> able to withhold the tip and deny them a good wage if your server gets
> >>> stuck with a table of 15 that leads to the kitchen and wait staff having
> >>> to deal with their orders.
> >>>
> >> Er no. I go for a meal and if the server is pleasant, does not
> >> continually hover over me, but smiles and is just - nice - then I
> >> leave a nice tip. If they are hung over, or sharp, or crash the
> >> plates down in front of me, then I do not leave any tip.
> >>
> >
> >Knowing that they are making minimum wage and expected to make it up it
> >tips, you stiff them on the tip if you is something displeases you about
> >the service?
> >This is an example of the sort of thing that makes me question the
> >tipping culture.
>
> It's interesting that Lucretia has the right-wing view he Underpay
> them and only if they please people enough, will they make enough to
> live off.

Every job is like that. If I don't please my employer, I'm out of a job.

Cindy Hamilton

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 8:02:28 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> Knowing that they are making minimum wage and expected to make it up it
> tips, you stiff them on the tip if you is something displeases you about
> the service?
> This is an example of the sort of thing that makes me question the
> tipping culture.
>
I stiffed a waitress on a tip once and not sorry I did. My friend and I
were seated, we got coffee, ordered then another couple that the waitress
knew well was seated. Was it a neighbor, relative, her preacher? I don't
know but she was at their table, constantly refilling coffee cups, food was
promptly brought out and we can't get her attention no matter what we did.
Couple is just about finished with their meal and our food arrives absolutely
stone cold. By the way, waitress had no other customers at that time.

Cashier wanted to know if everything was ok. I was polite but told her exact-ly what transpired and how disappointed we were with the service. Cashier
held our ticket aside to speak with the manager. Waitress is certainly not
going to be rewarded for such **** poor service by me.

On 2018-12-08 11:25 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 8:02:28 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>> Knowing that they are making minimum wage and expected to make it up it
>> tips, you stiff them on the tip if you is something displeases you about
>> the service?
>> This is an example of the sort of thing that makes me question the
>> tipping culture.
>>
> I stiffed a waitress on a tip once and not sorry I did. My friend and I
> were seated, we got coffee, ordered then another couple that the waitress
> knew well was seated. Was it a neighbor, relative, her preacher? I don't
> know but she was at their table, constantly refilling coffee cups, food was
> promptly brought out and we can't get her attention no matter what we did.
> Couple is just about finished with their meal and our food arrives absolutely
> stone cold. By the way, waitress had no other customers at that time.
>
> Cashier wanted to know if everything was ok. I was polite but told her exact-ly what transpired and how disappointed we were with the service. Cashier
> held our ticket aside to speak with the manager. Waitress is certainly not
> going to be rewarded for such **** poor service by me.


I don't blame you. I once left a small tip because the waitress was
flirting with the guy at the next table, who happened to be a friend of
mine. She was talking to him as she set my wife's order on the table and
spilled it. She should have been paying attention.

Then there was the snotty waiter in a seafood restaurant in Vancouver
who stiffed himself out of money. The bill had been over $60 (back in
the mid 80s) and he brought back more than $60 change. I had paid with a
Bank of America travellers cheque. He obviously assumed it was American
funds and had given me exchange. I tried to tell him three times. He
was rude the first time, ruder the second time and cut me off on my
third attempt to point out his error in my favour. The rudeness let to
a low tip and he was out more than $25 on the bill. I tried to do the
right thing for him and was treated with disdain for it.

On 12/8/2018 9:02 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2018-12-08 8:47 p.m., wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:23:21 -0500, Dave Smith
>
>>> There may not be a guarantee that they server would get, but you want to
>>> be able to hold the purse strings like you would the strings of a puppet
>>> to make sure they dance to your tune to get their tip.Â* You want to be
>>> able to withhold the tip and deny them a good wage if your server gets
>>> stuck with a table of 15 that leads to the kitchen and wait staff having
>>> to deal with their orders.
>>>
>> Er no.Â*Â* I go for a meal and if the server is pleasant, does not
>> continually hover over me, but smiles and is just - nice - then I
>> leave a nice tip.Â* If they are hung over, or sharp, or crash the
>> plates down in front of me,Â* then I do not leave any tip.
>>
>
> Knowing that they are making minimum wage and expected to make it up it
> tips, you stiff them on the tip if you is something displeases you about
> the service?
> This is an example of the sort of thing that makes me question the
> tipping culture.

You really don't get it, do you Dave? Servers know their wages depend
on tips. It behooves them to be pleasant. They don't have to become
your new best friend but if the're feeling grouchy they shouldn't take
it out on the customers. No, not even if the customer is being a PITA.
It's in the job description.

Note: The walk-in cooler is a great place to go and let out a scream or
unleash a few curse words when you're feeling particularly irritated.

Jill

On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 8:26:18 AM UTC-6, Jill McQuown wrote:
....
>
> Note: The walk-in cooler is a great place to go and let out a scream or
> unleash a few curse words when you're feeling particularly irritated.
>
> Jill

In my first baking job at Venture Stores during cookie specials when we were baking off a LOT of cookies I'd take one of my 15min breaks as 15 one min breaks in the deep freeze! Great place to cool off!

John Kuthe, KutheChocolates.com...

On 12/8/2018 6:23 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2018-12-08 5:53 PM, wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:47:24 -0500, Dave Smith
>
>>> I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
>>> when you get your bill and see the tax addedÂ* and then being expected to
>>> add 15% or more.
>>>
>> I don't like the tip added in style - no guarantee the servers really
>> get it, no encouragement for them to be pleasant.Â* I like to decide
>> for myself how great the service was.Â*Â* I do a percentage because
>> that's the easier way to do it.
>
> There may not be a guarantee that they server would get, but you want to
> be able to hold the purse strings like you would the strings of a puppet
> to make sure they dance to your tune to get their tip.Â* You want to be
> able to withhold the tip and deny them a good wage if your server gets
> stuck with a table of 15 that leads to the kitchen and wait staff having
> to deal with their orders.
>
>
I don't expect a server to perform miracles. I have eyes, I can tell
when a restaurant is busy and the server is in the weeds.

As for your example of a table of 15, IME if a party that large is
seated that will be the *only* party the server has to deal with.
Another server may help run food out to the large party but that's no
big deal. If there are tables left in their station other servers pick
them up until the large party is gone. (Also IME, good servers don't
have a problem picking up an extra table or two.) The kitchen has to
deal with getting the food out regardless of how many people are seated
together.

Jill

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>
I don't like the tip automatically to the bill. The waitstaff know they
will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
appears after the food has been delivered.
>
> I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
> when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
> add 15% or more.
>
I do not tip based on the total price; I tip on the amount of the bill before
taxes are added.

On 2018-12-08 6:12 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
>> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>>
> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill. The waitstaff know they
> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
> appears after the food has been delivered.

I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not at
all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.



>> I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
>> when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
>> add 15% or more.
>>
> I do not tip based on the total price; I tip on the amount of the bill before
> taxes are added.

Well, there is another one of those unwritten tipping rule questions.
Some people thing you should tip as a percentage on the total, tip
included. If you pay by debit here and opt for 15% it is on the total,
including the tax.

On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:30:34 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2018-12-08 6:12 PM, wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>>> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
>>> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>>> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>>> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>>> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>>>
>> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill. The waitstaff know they
>> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
>> appears after the food has been delivered.
>
>I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not at
>all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.
>
>
>
>>> I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
>>> when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
>>> add 15% or more.
>>>
>> I do not tip based on the total price; I tip on the amount of the bill before
>> taxes are added.
>
>Well, there is another one of those unwritten tipping rule questions.
>Some people thing you should tip as a percentage on the total, tip
>included. If you pay by debit here and opt for 15% it is on the total,
>including the tax.
>
>
It isn't here, tip comes before tax.

On 2018-12-08 8:48 p.m., wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:30:34 -0500, Dave Smith
>
>> Well, there is another one of those unwritten tipping rule questions.
>> Some people thing you should tip as a percentage on the total, tip
>> included. If you pay by debit here and opt for 15% it is on the total,
>> including the tax.
>>
>>
> It isn't here, tip comes before tax.
>
Really? And how do they do that? When you pay by debit machine they
enter the amount. They do not enter the food and drink total, let you
add the percentage tip and then add the tax.

Do you think maybe you were wrong about that?

On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 21:32:40 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2018-12-08 8:48 p.m., wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:30:34 -0500, Dave Smith
>>
>>> Well, there is another one of those unwritten tipping rule questions.
>>> Some people thing you should tip as a percentage on the total, tip
>>> included. If you pay by debit here and opt for 15% it is on the total,
>>> including the tax.
>>>
>>>
>> It isn't here, tip comes before tax.
>>
>Really? And how do they do that? When you pay by debit machine they
>enter the amount. They do not enter the food and drink total, let you
>add the percentage tip and then add the tax.
>
>Do you think maybe you were wrong about that?

I will examine it carefully next time!

On 2018-12-09 6:36 AM, wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 21:32:40 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> On 2018-12-08 8:48 p.m., wrote:
>>> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:30:34 -0500, Dave Smith
>>>
>>>> Well, there is another one of those unwritten tipping rule questions.
>>>> Some people thing you should tip as a percentage on the total, tip
>>>> included. If you pay by debit here and opt for 15% it is on the total,
>>>> including the tax.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It isn't here, tip comes before tax.
>>>
>> Really? And how do they do that? When you pay by debit machine they
>> enter the amount. They do not enter the food and drink total, let you
>> add the percentage tip and then add the tax.
>>
>> Do you think maybe you were wrong about that?
>
> I will examine it carefully next time!
>


Please do, because I am intrigued by the process that would be involved
in taking total that was entered into the machine, deducting the amount
of tax, which was never entered separately, calculating the percentage
tip on that amount, then adding that tip and the tax to get a new total.
Or..... you could just acknowledge that the machines calculate the
tip on the total amount, tax included.

I do not pay a tip on the taxes. If I used the % tip I will opt for the
15% and accept that it is actually closer to 17%.

FWIW... my managed a number of bars and restaurants for close to 10
years and considers 15% to be a good tip.

On 12/8/2018 8:48 PM, wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:30:34 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> On 2018-12-08 6:12 PM, wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>>>> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
>>>> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>>>> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>>>> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>>>> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>>>>
>>> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill. The waitstaff know they
>>> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
>>> appears after the food has been delivered.
>>
>> I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not at
>> all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
>>>> when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
>>>> add 15% or more.
>>>>
>>> I do not tip based on the total price; I tip on the amount of the bill before
>>> taxes are added.
>>
>> Well, there is another one of those unwritten tipping rule questions.
>> Some people thing you should tip as a percentage on the total, tip
>> included. If you pay by debit here and opt for 15% it is on the total,
>> including the tax.
>>
>>
> It isn't here, tip comes before tax.
>
There's a place on the ticket/guest check where you write in the tip
before you sign. It is *above* the tax amount so you're tipping on the
meal, not on the taxed total. I guess he hasn't looked at a guest check
lately.

Jill

On 2018-12-09 9:47 AM, jmcquown wrote:
> On 12/8/2018 8:48 PM, wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:30:34 -0500, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-12-08 6:12 PM, wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>>>>> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of
>>>>> the
>>>>> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>>>>> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>>>>> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>>>>> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>>>>>
>>>> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill.Â* The waitstaff know
>>>> they
>>>> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
>>>> appears after the food has been delivered.
>>>
>>> I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not at
>>> all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
>>>>> when you get your bill and see the tax addedÂ* and then being
>>>>> expected to
>>>>> add 15% or more.
>>>>>
>>>> I do not tip based on the total price; I tip on the amount of the
>>>> bill before
>>>> taxes are added.
>>>
>>> Well, there is another one of those unwritten tipping rule questions.
>>> Some people thing you should tip as a percentage on the total, tip
>>> included.Â* If you pay by debit here and opt for 15% it is on the total,
>>> including the tax.
>>>
>>>
>> It isn't here, tip comes before tax.
>>
> There's a place on the ticket/guest check where you write in the tip
> before you sign.Â* It is *above* the tax amount so you're tipping on the
> meal, not on the taxed total.Â* I guess he hasn't looked at a guest check
> lately.



I was talking about paying the bill by debit card and using the option
to tip by percentage. If you use that, the percentage is based on the
total that was entered into the machine, which would include the tax.
That means that you are paying that percentage on the tax as well as the
food and drink. You can avoid that by calculating the amount of the tip
and entering that amount.

On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 09:47:14 -0500, jmcquown >
wrote:

>On 12/8/2018 8:48 PM, wrote:
>> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018 18:30:34 -0500, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-12-08 6:12 PM, wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>>>>> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
>>>>> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>>>>> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>>>>> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>>>>> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>>>>>
>>>> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill. The waitstaff know they
>>>> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
>>>> appears after the food has been delivered.
>>>
>>> I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not at
>>> all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
>>>>> when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
>>>>> add 15% or more.
>>>>>
>>>> I do not tip based on the total price; I tip on the amount of the bill before
>>>> taxes are added.
>>>
>>> Well, there is another one of those unwritten tipping rule questions.
>>> Some people thing you should tip as a percentage on the total, tip
>>> included. If you pay by debit here and opt for 15% it is on the total,
>>> including the tax.
>>>
>>>
>> It isn't here, tip comes before tax.
>>
>There's a place on the ticket/guest check where you write in the tip
>before you sign. It is *above* the tax amount so you're tipping on the
>meal, not on the taxed total. I guess he hasn't looked at a guest check
>lately.
>
>Jill

I found my last receipt and quoted it to him, quite simple the machine
is totalled, tax added, then when she hands it to me, I add my tip and
it totals in the tip as well for final total.

On 2018-12-09 2:28 PM, wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 09:47:14 -0500, jmcquown >

>> There's a place on the ticket/guest check where you write in the tip
>> before you sign. It is *above* the tax amount so you're tipping on the
>> meal, not on the taxed total. I guess he hasn't looked at a guest check
>> lately.
>>
>> Jill
>
> I found my last receipt and quoted it to him, quite simple the machine
> is totalled, tax added, then when she hands it to me, I add my tip and
> it totals in the tip as well for final total.

Yes you did. You bill showed the total charges for the meal and the tax
and total due. Then it showed the tip, which turned out to be 20% of the
Balance Due, which included the tax. That showed quite clearly that you
paid a 20% on the tax as well as the meal.
>

On 2018-12-09 2:28 PM, wrote:

>> There's a place on the ticket/guest check where you write in the tip
>> before you sign. It is *above* the tax amount so you're tipping on the
>> meal, not on the taxed total. I guess he hasn't looked at a guest check
>> lately.
>>
>> Jill
>
> I found my last receipt and quoted it to him, quite simple the machine
> is totalled, tax added, then when she hands it to me, I add my tip and
> it totals in the tip as well for final total.

If you intend to tip 15% or 20% on the price of the meal you will have
to work it out and, when given the machine, enter it manually. If you
opt to tip a percentage it will be calculated on the food and drink and
on the tax. You do not need to pay a tip on the tax.

On 12/8/2018 6:30 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2018-12-08 6:12 PM, wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>>> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
>>> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>>> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>>> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>>> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>>>
>> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill.Â* The waitstaff know they
>> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
>> appears after the food has been delivered.
>
> I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not at
> all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.
>
I can't say I've ever experienced "tip soliciting behaviour". What does
that even mean? Being obsequious? Nope, I can't say I've encountered that.

Jill

On 2018-12-09 9:44 AM, jmcquown wrote:
> On 12/8/2018 6:30 PM, Dave Smith wrote:

>>> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill.Â* The waitstaff know they
>>> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
>>> appears after the food has been delivered.
>>
>> I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not
>> at all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.
>>
> I can't say I've ever experienced "tip soliciting behaviour".Â* What does
> that even mean?Â* Being obsequious?Â* Nope, I can't say I've encountered
> that.



Are you kidding. It is no secret. Psychology today even wrote an
article about it. They noted that women who wear something in their hair
get more tips from men and women than those who do not. Waitress who
gently touch their customers on the shoulder, arm or hand get larger
tips. The customers who are touched tend to buy more drinks, offering
more opportunities for tips. Introducing themselves by name gets bigger
tips. They suggest setting up reciprocity. They do things like writing
a little note on the bill. If the food is late they tell you the chef
didn't think it was up to his standards so he did it over again. They
have done you a favour....so pay up. They repeat the orders, leading to
a sense of sameness, which will prompt you to tip more. At the bottom
of their list is offering good service.

On 12/9/2018 10:51 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2018-12-09 9:44 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>> On 12/8/2018 6:30 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>
>>>> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill.Â* The waitstaff know
>>>> they
>>>> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
>>>> appears after the food has been delivered.
>>>
>>> I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not
>>> at all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.
>>>
>> I can't say I've ever experienced "tip soliciting behaviour".Â* What
>> does that even mean?Â* Being obsequious?Â* Nope, I can't say I've
>> encountered that.
>
>
> Are you kidding.Â* It is no secret. Psychology today even wrote an
> article about it.

Uh... I don't actually care what Psychology Today has to say about it.
I'm basing this on my own experience.

> They noted that women who wear something in their hair
> get more tips from men and women than those who do not.

So... I'm supposed to think because someone wears a barrette or a flower
ornament in their hair they're schemeing to get more tips? How about
they're just keeping it pinned up out of the way?

> Waitress who
> gently touch their customers on the shoulder, arm or hand get larger
> tips. The customers who are touched tend to buy more drinks, offering
> more opportunities for tips.

I've never ever had a server touch me.

> Introducing themselves by name gets bigger
> tips.

That's company policy. They usually wear name tags, too.

> They suggest setting up reciprocity.Â* They do things like writing
> a little note on the bill.

I've never gotten little notes on my restaurant bills. Even if I did it
wouldn't induce me to tip more.

> If the food is late they tell you the chef
> didn't think it was up to his standards so he did it over again. They
> have done you a favour....so pay up.Â* They repeat the orders, leading to
> a sense of sameness, which will prompt you to tip more.Â* At the bottom
> of their list is offering good service.
>
Apparently we have dined in very different places.

Jill

On 2018-12-09 12:49 PM, jmcquown wrote:
> On 12/9/2018 10:51 AM, Dave Smith wrote:

>>> I can't say I've ever experienced "tip soliciting behaviour".Â* What
>>> does that even mean?Â* Being obsequious?Â* Nope, I can't say I've
>>> encountered that.
>>
>>
>> Are you kidding.Â* It is no secret. Psychology today even wrote an
>> article about it.
>
> Uh... I don't actually care what Psychology Today has to say about it.
> I'm basing this on my own experience.

It is a reputable periodical and there was research that led them to
these findings.


>
>> They noted that women who wear something in their hair get more tips
>> from men and women than those who do not.
>
> So... I'm supposed to think because someone wears a barrette or a flower
> ornament in their hair they're schemeing to get more tips?Â* How about
> they're just keeping it pinned up out of the way?

Hell no. You aren't supposed to think that. It would give away the
tricks of the trade.


>
>> Waitress who gently touch their customers on the shoulder, arm or hand
>> get larger tips. The customers who are touched tend to buy more
>> drinks, offering more opportunities for tips.
>
> I've never ever had a server touch me.

You haven't. I sure have.


>
>> Introducing themselves by name gets bigger tips.
>
> That's company policy.Â* They usually wear name tags, too.

Yes, and it gives them some sort of relationship with the customer .....
so they will be more likely to tip more.
>
>> They suggest setting up reciprocity.Â* They do things like writing a
>> little note on the bill.
>
> I've never gotten little notes on my restaurant bills.Â* Even if I did it
> wouldn't induce me to tip more.


Really????? You never got a bill with a hand written Thanks or Have A
Nice Day with the server's name and a happy face???? I have to go by
my experience, because I have seen it a lot.



Psychology Today is not the only source on tips for getting tips. There
are lots of them. Even Forbes has suggestions that include wearing make
up, standing close to customers, touching customers, squatting at the
table, smiling, complimenting their food selections,writing Thank You on
the cheques and drawing little pictures.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurash.../#2c6d7bc7d02b


>
>> If the food is late they tell you the chef didn't think it was up to
>> his standards so he did it over again. They have done you a
>> favour....so pay up.Â* They repeat the orders, leading to a sense of
>> sameness, which will prompt you to tip more.Â* At the bottom of their
>> list is offering good service.
>>
> Apparently we have dined in very different places.

It would seem more like different worlds When I get the routine about
the product not being good enough I assume it is BS. If I get the story
about the fish not being fresh enough for the chef's standards I
automatically translate that to them having got a deal on it because it
was old and it had got so bad they can't even try to foist it on a diner.

On 12/9/2018 12:49 PM, jmcquown wrote:
> On 12/9/2018 10:51 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> Waitress who gently touch their customers on the shoulder, arm or hand
>> get larger tips. The customers who are touched tend to buy more
>> drinks, offering more opportunities for tips.
>
> I've never ever had a server touch me.
>
Nor have I. It wouldn't make me give a big tip - quite the opposite! I
don't want strangers touching me.

On 12/9/2018 12:49 PM, jmcquown wrote:

>
>> They suggest setting up reciprocity.Â* They do things like writing a
>> little note on the bill.
>
> I've never gotten little notes on my restaurant bills.Â* Even if I did it
> wouldn't induce me to tip more.
>
I've gotten a hand written "thank you" or a smiley face a couple of
times. Would not induce me to add an extra 20% buy if you feel good
about the service aI may round up a little more.

In article >,
says...
>
> On 2018-12-09 9:44 AM, jmcquown wrote:
> > On 12/8/2018 6:30 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> >>> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill.* The waitstaff know they
> >>> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
> >>> appears after the food has been delivered.
> >>
> >> I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not
> >> at all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.
> >>
> > I can't say I've ever experienced "tip soliciting behaviour".* What does
> > that even mean?* Being obsequious?* Nope, I can't say I've encountered
> > that.
>
>
>
> Are you kidding. It is no secret. Psychology today even wrote an
> article about it. They noted that women who wear something in their hair
> get more tips from men and women than those who do not.

Waitress who
> gently touch their customers on the shoulder, arm or hand get larger
> tips.

Really. Any serving staff who laid hands on me, or anyone in my
party, just forfeited any tip.

Janet UK.

On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 18:32:31 -0000, Janet > wrote:

>In article >,
>says...
>>
>> On 2018-12-09 9:44 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>>
>> > I can't say I've ever experienced "tip soliciting behaviour".* What does
>> > that even mean?* Being obsequious?* Nope, I can't say I've encountered
>> > that.
>>
>> Are you kidding. It is no secret. Psychology today even wrote an
>> article about it. They noted that women who wear something in their hair
>> get more tips from men and women than those who do not.
>
>> Waitress who gently touch their customers on the shoulder, arm or hand get larger
>> tips.
>
>Really. Any serving staff who laid hands on me, or anyone in my
>party, just forfeited any tip.

I don't think you have anything to fear.

On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 09:44:25 -0500, jmcquown >
wrote:

>On 12/8/2018 6:30 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2018-12-08 6:12 PM, wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>>>> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
>>>> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>>>> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>>>> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>>>> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>>>>
>>> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill.* The waitstaff know they
>>> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
>>> appears after the food has been delivered.
>>
>> I have had excellent service in non tipping countries, and I did not at
>> all miss the tip soliciting behaviour.
>>
>I can't say I've ever experienced "tip soliciting behaviour". What does
>that even mean?

Cleavage.

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 6:12:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
> >
> > I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
> > People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
> > cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
> > reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
> > meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
> > gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
> >
> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill. The waitstaff know they
> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
> appears after the food has been delivered.
> >
> > I think that you have to admit that there is a degree of sticker shock
> > when you get your bill and see the tax added and then being expected to
> > add 15% or more.
> >
> I do not tip based on the total price; I tip on the amount of the bill before
> taxes are added.

You really calculate it so finely? How much are the taxes in your jursidiction?
Here they are 6%, so the difference would be like tipping 15% versus 15.9%.

If your taxes are 12% it would be 15% versus 16.8%. If your taxes are 15%,
it would be 15% versus 17%.

On a $10.00 tab, the difference is between tipping $1.50 or $1.70. I would
just leave the change on the table and make it $2.00 anyway, so I wouldn't
have a bunch of silver rattling around in my pocket.

Cindy Hamilton

On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 6:32:43 AM UTC-6, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 6:12:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> >
> > I do not tip based on the total price; I tip on the amount of the bill before
> > taxes are added.
>
> You really calculate it so finely? How much are the taxes in your jursidiction?
>
9.25 to 9.75% It's easy to calculate. Look at the bill and mentally do 10%
and then whatever the amount is double it.
>
> Here they are 6%, so the difference would be like tipping 15% versus 15.9%.
>
> If your taxes are 12% it would be 15% versus 16.8%. If your taxes are 15%,
> it would be 15% versus 17%.
>
> On a $10.00 tab, the difference is between tipping $1.50 or $1.70. I would
> just leave the change on the table and make it $2.00 anyway, so I wouldn't
> have a bunch of silver rattling around in my pocket.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
If it's a $10 tab I would calculate 10% of that which would be a buck but then
I double it to 20% or two bucks.

On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 10:40:18 AM UTC-10, wrote:
> On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 6:32:43 AM UTC-6, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >
> > On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 6:12:20 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > >
> > > I do not tip based on the total price; I tip on the amount of the bill before
> > > taxes are added.
> >
> > You really calculate it so finely? How much are the taxes in your jursidiction?
> >
> 9.25 to 9.75% It's easy to calculate. Look at the bill and mentally do 10%
> and then whatever the amount is double it.
> >
> > Here they are 6%, so the difference would be like tipping 15% versus 15.9%.
> >
> > If your taxes are 12% it would be 15% versus 16.8%. If your taxes are 15%,
> > it would be 15% versus 17%.
> >
> > On a $10.00 tab, the difference is between tipping $1.50 or $1.70. I would
> > just leave the change on the table and make it $2.00 anyway, so I wouldn't
> > have a bunch of silver rattling around in my pocket.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
> >
> If it's a $10 tab I would calculate 10% of that which would be a buck but then
> I double it to 20% or two bucks.

I just move the decimal point over one place and times by two. Trying to calculate 15, 16, 17, 18, or 19% is too Goddamn hard for my brain. I like it when the establishment figures out the gratuities because it's going to be less than I'd pay. Yay!

On 12/8/2018 6:12 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:46:16 PM UTC-6, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
>> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>>
> I don't like the tip automatically to the bill. The waitstaff know they
> will receive a tip whether they are an attentive waiter or one who dis-
> appears after the food has been delivered.
>>

Should not make a difference. Good employees are always good, bad don't
care at any time. Just like the typical wage earner, you know you are
getting paid at the end of the week, but you also know that if you don't
do a good job you will be gone.

We have a restaurant in our area that does not allow tipping. I'd call
it a way above average experience and the staff is top notch. I have no
idea what they are paid, but it has to be good. They closed when the
children retired after the parents opened it 55 years earlier.

You have to pay the staff what they would make when tipped though, or
you lose them.

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 5:46:16 PM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2018-12-08 5:08 PM, cshenk wrote:
> > Dave Smith wrote:
> >
>
> >> FWIW.... there are minimum wages for servers here. It is lower for
> >> those serving alcohol, but it currently $12.20 /hr here.
> >
> > A waitress may only make 1.25 an hour and be expected to 'make of the
> > rest in tips' which she then has to split with the cook and bus boy
> > (cook and busboy make over minimum wage already).
> >
>
> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.

Sorry? I believe I'm the only person here who claims to tip 30% or
more. When have I ever said I was opposed to a decent wage for waitstaff?

However, many places that have tried that have rescinded it due to complaints
on the part of their employees, because it reduced their actual compensation.

Cindy Hamilton

On Sun, 9 Dec 2018 04:22:57 -0800 (PST), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 5:46:16 PM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2018-12-08 5:08 PM, cshenk wrote:
>> > Dave Smith wrote:
>> >
>>
>> >> FWIW.... there are minimum wages for servers here. It is lower for
>> >> those serving alcohol, but it currently $12.20 /hr here.
>> >
>> > A waitress may only make 1.25 an hour and be expected to 'make of the
>> > rest in tips' which she then has to split with the cook and bus boy
>> > (cook and busboy make over minimum wage already).
>> >
>>
>> I remain perplexed by the attitudes that I see being expressed here.
>> People feel obliged to leave a tip that is based on a percentage of the
>> cost of their meal and drinks, some claiming to tip 30% or more, but
>> reject the suggestion that the price of service being included in the
>> meal. They prefer to pay a percentage of their bill as a voluntary
>> gratuity to having a smaller amount added to the menu price.
>
>Sorry? I believe I'm the only person here who claims to tip 30% or
>more. When have I ever said I was opposed to a decent wage for waitstaff?
>
>However, many places that have tried that have rescinded it due to complaints
>on the part of their employees, because it reduced their actual compensation.
>
>Cindy Hamilton

Ditto - I feel I am making up for their low wages!