On 2015-11-11 4:12 PM, graham wrote:

> Isn't it strange that the highest rates of teenage pregnancy are in
> those areas of the US where xtian fundies try to limit science and sex
> education.


I always thought it more than a little strange that those who are most
opposed to abortion are also opposed to birth control and sex education.
For many of the fundies, sex is sin, and if people have sex out of
wedlock they have to pay the price.

On 2015-11-11 4:46 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> The Texas law is a bit overboard. As Carol stated "some form of ID"
> would include an expired driver's license or student ID. It is possible
> to make a sensible law.

In theory. The problem is that politicians get involved.

Janet B wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:25:53 -0600, "cshenk" > wrote:
>
> > Michel Boucher wrote in rec.food.cooking:
> >
> >> "cshenk" > wrote in
> >> :
> >>
> >> >> > There is a lot of voter fraud and showing some form
> >> >> > of ID to vote is not a burden if you want honest elections.
> >> >>
> >> >> A LOT of voter fraud? That's total BS. 37 credible cases
> >> >> out of 1 billion votes isn't enough to merit these jackbooted
> >> >> actions aimed solely at limiting citizens ability to vote.
> >> >
> >> > I really do not get the idea that showing some form of ID
> >> > (even a current bill stub with your address) is so horrible or
> >> > disenfranchises anyone. You can even mail in for a voters
> >> > registration card and list all the folks living at your house
> >> > and get cards back to use to vote with.
> >> >
> >> > Can you explain how a US citizen can be disenfranchized by
> >> > having to show some basic ID? Meantime, I do not get it.
> >>
> >> Our defunct Conservative gummint tried that by ramming through a
> >> bill titled Fair Elections Act which made it more difficult for
> >> students, the elderly in retirement homes and the homeless to
> >> vote but luckily it backfired. They thought that people without
> >> ID would not be able to vote but people were showing up with
> >> corroborating evidence of their citizenship.
> >>
> >> The voter fraud, as usual, was all on the Conservatives' side.
> >> They were charged in three separate schemes, found guilty, and
> >> sentenced in all but one where the party was fined. THEY knew
> >> there was fraud because THEY were the ones doing it.
> >>
> >> The Chief Electoral Officer said there were no recorded cases
> >> of systematic voter fraud before October 2005 (the first time
> >> these jackasses got enough seats to form a government).
> >>
> >> Good riddance to bad rubbish.
> >
> > Ok, but we see folks saying folks in their 90s cant vote. Um,
> > that's a state problem becuse by then they are drawing social
> > security so have a SSN card (or number). THat is one of the 20 or
> > so ways to show identity.
> >
> > If your elderly parent lives with you, you just have to be there to
> > validate the address. It's not an issue.
> >
> > Now if some states get wierd and require specifics, that is wrong.
> > Mine is reasonable. Texas seems the only one off set. Maybe they
> > have more issues with illegal folks there?
> >
> > Carol
> you need to consider (your state rules) that 2 forms of ID are
> required. If one is not there you can get around by using other
> things that require 2 forms of ID. Most of which you won't know about
> until you get there. You are making minimum wage, working odd,
> unpredictable hours at a fast food joint. You don't make enough to
> run a car to get you to DMV. You can't afford to take off of work.
> Some of the documentation isn't easily available to you because of
> age, location, travel, etc. If you are a student, living at a
> university, you do not have proof of residence where you are. The
> whole thing becomes a rigmarole with many trips and extra expense here
> and there. $5 or $10 doesn't impact you much, but for poor people it
> makes a big difference to spend extra to get a birth certificate,
> school transcript or other forms of ID. Most of these people have
> been voting for decades with no problem. Now impediments have been
> erected to make access to voting really tough or impossible.
> Janet US

Sorry Janet, not buying it.

SSN card replication is free. A tax stub will do for the rest. Copy of
a filed EZ form works too. A letter addressed to you name with post
stamp even works.

Try again.

--

Embudo wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> cshenk wrote:
> > sf wrote in rec.food.cooking:
> >
> >>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:27:04 -0500, Ed Pawlowski >
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > There is a lot of voter fraud and showing some form
> > > > of ID to vote is not a burden if you want honest elections.
> > >
> > > A LOT of voter fraud? That's total BS. 37 credible cases out of
> > > 1 billion votes isn't enough to merit these jackbooted actions
> > > aimed solely at limiting citizens ability to vote.
> >
> > I really do not get the idea that showing some form of ID (even a
> > current bill stub with your address) is so horrible or
> > disenfranchises anyone. You can even mail in for a voters
> > registration card and list all the folks living at your house and
> > get cards back to use to vote with.
>
> Ayup!
>
> > Can you explain how a US citizen can be disenfranchized by having to
> > show some basic ID? Meantime, I do not get it.
> >
> > Carol
>
> Maybe you don't get this:
>
> http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...general_politi
> cs/may_2015/most_democrats_think_illegal_immigrants_should_vot e
>
> The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that
> one-out-of-three Likely U.S. Voters (35%) now believes that illegal
> immigrants should be allowed to vote if they can prove they live in
> this country and pay taxes. Sixty percent (60%) disagree, while five
> percent (5%) are undecided. (To see survey question wording, click
> here.)
>
> Fifty-three percent (53%) of Democrats think tax-paying illegal
> immigrants should have the right to vote. Twenty-one percent (21%) of
> Republicans and 30% of voters not affiliated with either major
> political party agree.

Auto-posting the same crap 20 times doesn't make me interested.

--

"cshenk" > wrote in
:

> Ok, but we see folks saying folks in their 90s cant vote. Um,
> that's a state problem becuse by then they are drawing social
> security so have a SSN card (or number). THat is one of the
> 20 or so ways to show identity.
>
> If your elderly parent lives with you, you just have to be
> there to validate the address. It's not an issue.
>
> Now if some states get wierd and require specifics, that is
> wrong. Mine is reasonable. Texas seems the only one off set.
> Maybe they have more issues with illegal folks there?

In Canada we only have one set of rules for federal elections.
They may be flawed (not for long) but they are at least
understandable.

Your system is so totaly anti-democratic, I suggest you scrap
it and start over from scratch, consulting with other nations
as to the most efficient type of ballot, most efficient type
of ID, etc.

Hint: ballots? Paper! (duh)

Hint: ID? National identity cards (common in Europe)

--

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice,
you have chosen the side of the oppressor " --
Desmond Tutu

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On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 2:39:12 PM UTC-7, Embudo wrote:
> graham wrote:
> > On 11/11/2015 1:18 PM, sf wrote:
> >> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:42:01 -0600, Michel Boucher
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>> Janet B > wrote in
> >>> :
> >>>
> >>>>>> Better access to abortion should avoid the
> >>>>>> problem of later term procedures.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It all starts with better access to birth control.
> >>>>
> >>>> exactly.
> >>>> Janet US
> >>>
> >>> And that starts with proper (not judgmental) education.
> >>
> >> You mean teaching evidence based science instead of their biblical
> >> myth about the universe being created in seven 24-hour days, the earth
> >> being only 6000 years old and man walking with dinosaurs just like in
> >> the cartoons?
> >>
> > Isn't it strange that the highest rates of teenage pregnancy are in
> > those areas of the US where xtian fundies try to limit science and sex
> > education.
> > Graham
> >
> Isn't it sickening that some gut-****ed canucklehead has to be down
> talking shit in OUR news groups.
>
> **** off and die, you asshole!

"OUR news groups"...what makes them "OUR" news groups? Americans don't own the friggin InterNet or the fricken world either.
===

MisterDiddyWahDiddy > wrote in
:

> I am, of course, supporting Bernie.

If I was in the US, I would be doing that too.

--

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice,
you have chosen the side of the oppressor " --
Desmond Tutu

---
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Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2015-11-11 4:46 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> The Texas law is a bit overboard. As Carol stated "some form of ID"
>> would include an expired driver's license or student ID. It is possible
>> to make a sensible law.
>
> In theory. The problem is that politicians get involved.
>
NO.

In reality:


http://www.votetexas.gov/register-to-vote/need-id

In 2011, the Texas Legislature passed Senate Bill 14 (SB 14) creating a
new requirement for voters to show photo identification when voting in
person. While pending review within the judicial system, the U.S.
Supreme Court issued its opinion in Shelby County v. Holder, which
effectively ended all pending litigation. As a result, voters are now
required to present an approved form of photo identification in order to
vote in all Texas Elections.

This requirement is effective immediately.

Here is a list of the acceptable forms of photo ID:

Texas driver license issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS)
Texas Election Identification Certificate issued by DPS
Texas personal identification card issued by DPS
Texas concealed handgun license issued by DPS
United States military identification card containing the persons
photograph
United States citizenship certificate containing the persons photograph
United States passport
With the exception of the U.S. citizenship certificate, the
identification must be current or have expired no more than 60 days
before being presented for voter qualification at the polling place.

Procedures for Voting

When a voter arrives at a polling location, the voter will be asked to
present one of the seven (7) acceptable forms of photo ID. Election
officials will now be required by State law to determine whether the
voters name on the identification provided matches the name on the
official list of registered voters (€œOLRV€�). After a voter presents
their ID, the election worker will compare it to the OLRV. If the name
on the ID matches the name on the list of registered voters, the voter
will follow the regular procedures for voting.

If the name does not match exactly but is €œsubstantially similar€� to the
name on the OLRV, the voter will be permitted to vote as long as the
voter signs an affidavit stating that the voter is the same person on
the list of registered voters.

If a voter does not have proper identification, the voter will still be
permitted to vote provisionally. The voter will have (six) 6 days to
present proper identification to the county voter registrar, or the
voters ballot will be rejected.

Exemption/Exceptions:

Voters with a disability may apply with the county voter registrar for a
permanent exemption. The application must contain written documentation
from either the U.S. Social Security Administration evidencing he or she
has been determined to have a disability, or from the U.S. Department of
Veterans Affairs evidencing a disability rating of at least 50 percent.
In addition, the applicant must state that he or she has no valid form
of photo identification. Those who obtain a disability exemption will be
allowed to vote by presenting a voter registration certificate
reflecting the exemption. Please contact your voter registrar for more
details.

Voters who have a consistent religious objection to being photographed
and voters who do not have any valid form of photo identification as a
result of certain natural disasters as declared by the President of the
United States or the Texas Governor, may vote a provisional ballot,
appear at the voter registrars office within six (6) calendar days
after election day, and sign an affidavit swearing to the religious
objection or natural disaster, in order for your ballot to be counted.
Please contact your county voter registrar for more details.

Frequently Asked Questions

1. When does the new photo identification law go into effect?

The new photo identification requirement is effective immediately.

2. What kind of identification will be required to qualify to vote in
person under the new program?

A voter will be required to show one of the following forms of photo
identification at the polling location before the voter will be
permitted to cast a vote.

Texas driver license issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS)
Texas Election Identification Certificate issued by DPS
Texas personal identification card issued by DPS
Texas concealed handgun license issued by DPS
United States military identification card containing the persons
photograph
United States citizenship certificate containing the persons photograph
United States passport
3. My ID is expired. Will it still work?

With the exception of the U.S. citizenship certificate, the
identification must be current or have expired no more than 60 days
before being presented for voter qualification at the polling place.

4. But what if a voter does not have any of these forms of photo ID? Are
there any exceptions?

If a voter does not have a permanent disability exemption (addressed
below) indicated on his or her voter registration certificate AND the
voter does not have any of the photo identifications indicated above at
the time of voting, the voter may cast a provisional ballot at the
polls. However, in order to have the provisional ballot counted, the
voter will be required to visit the voter registrars office within six
calendar days of the date of the election to either present one of the
above forms of photo ID OR submit one of the temporary affidavits
addressed below (e.g., religious objection or natural disaster) in the
presence of the county voter registrar while attesting to the fact that
he or she does not have any of the required photo IDs.

A permanent exemption is available for voters with documented
disabilities. Voters with a disability may apply with the county voter
registrar for a permanent exemption. The application must contain
written documentation from either the U.S. Social Security
Administration evidencing the applicants disability, or from the U.S.
Department of Veterans Affairs evidencing a disability rating of at
least 50 percent. In addition, the applicant must state that he or she
has no valid form of photo identification. Those who obtain a disability
exemption will be allowed to vote by presenting a voter registration
certificate reflecting the exemption.

Affidavits are available for voters who have a consistent religious
objection to being photographed and for voters who do not have any photo
identification as a result of certain natural disasters as declared by
the President of the United States or the Texas Governor within 45 days
of the day the ballot was cast.

5. If I have a government-issued ID that contains my photo and it is not
on the list above, may I use it?

If you do not have one of the forms of photo IDs listed above and your
voter registration certificate does not have a disability exemption
noted, you will only be eligible to cast a provisional ballot.

6. My name on my approved photo ID does not exactly match my name on my
voter registration card. Can I still vote?

Election officials will review the ID and if a name is €œsubstantially
similar€� to the name on their list of registered voters, you will still
be able to vote, but you will also have to submit an affidavit stating
that you are the same person on the list of registered voters.

7. What does €œsubstantially similar€� mean?

A voters name is considered substantially similar if one or more of the
following circumstances applies:

The name on the ID is slightly different from one or more of the name
fields on the official list of registered voters.
The name on the voters ID or on list of registered voters is a
customary variation of the voters formal name. For example, Bill for
William, or Beto for Alberto.
The voters name contains an initial, middle name, or former name that
is either not on the official list of registered voters or on the
voters ID.
A first name, middle name, former name or initial of the voters name
occupies a different field on the presented ID document than it does on
the list of registered voters.
In considering whether a name is substantially similar, election
officials will also look at whether information on the presented ID
matches elements of the voters information on the official list of
registered voters such as the voters residence address or date of birth.

8. Does the new photo ID requirement apply to voting by mail?

The new requirement does not change the process for voting by mail.

9. Does the address on my photo identification have to match my address
on the official list of registered voters at the time of voting?

The new requirement makes no determination on voter address matching
criteria; therefore, there is no address matching requirement.

10. When is the DPS Election Identification Certificate going to be
available?

The Election Identification Certificate is now available. Information
regarding how to obtain an election identification certificate can be
found at www.dps.texas.gov. You may also contact DPS by telephone at
(512) 424-2600 for more information.

11. What happens if I refuse to show proof of identity?

Voters who refuse to show proof of identity will be allowed to vote by
provisional ballot. However, please be advised that a refusal to show ID
is not a valid ground for casting a provisional ballot, and it is likely
that the voters ballot will be rejected by the ballot board.

We hope you have found this information helpful. Should you need
additional information, please contact our office via telephone at
1-800-252-VOTE (8683) or email us.

cshenk wrote:
> Embudo wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>> cshenk wrote:
>>> sf wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:27:04 -0500, Ed Pawlowski >
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is a lot of voter fraud and showing some form
>>>>> of ID to vote is not a burden if you want honest elections.
>>>>
>>>> A LOT of voter fraud? That's total BS. 37 credible cases out of
>>>> 1 billion votes isn't enough to merit these jackbooted actions
>>>> aimed solely at limiting citizens ability to vote.
>>>
>>> I really do not get the idea that showing some form of ID (even a
>>> current bill stub with your address) is so horrible or
>>> disenfranchises anyone. You can even mail in for a voters
>>> registration card and list all the folks living at your house and
>>> get cards back to use to vote with.
>>
>> Ayup!
>>
>>> Can you explain how a US citizen can be disenfranchized by having to
>>> show some basic ID? Meantime, I do not get it.
>>>
>>> Carol
>>
>> Maybe you don't get this:
>>
>> http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...general_politi
>> cs/may_2015/most_democrats_think_illegal_immigrants_should_vot e
>>
>> The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that
>> one-out-of-three Likely U.S. Voters (35%) now believes that illegal
>> immigrants should be allowed to vote if they can prove they live in
>> this country and pay taxes. Sixty percent (60%) disagree, while five
>> percent (5%) are undecided. (To see survey question wording, click
>> here.)
>>
>> Fifty-three percent (53%) of Democrats think tax-paying illegal
>> immigrants should have the right to vote. Twenty-one percent (21%) of
>> Republicans and 30% of voters not affiliated with either major
>> political party agree.
>
> Auto-posting the same crap 20 times doesn't make me interested.
>

If the truth bothers you then your problems are far greater than boredom.

Michel Boucher wrote:
> Your system is so totaly anti-democratic, I suggest

**** OFF AND GO TO HELL!!!

No one wants your pig-ignorant Frenchy mouth here.

GET LOST!

Roy wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 2:39:12 PM UTC-7, Embudo wrote:
>> graham wrote:
>>> On 11/11/2015 1:18 PM, sf wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:42:01 -0600, Michel Boucher
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Janet B > wrote in
>>>>> :
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Better access to abortion should avoid the
>>>>>>>> problem of later term procedures.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It all starts with better access to birth control.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>> Janet US
>>>>>
>>>>> And that starts with proper (not judgmental) education.
>>>>
>>>> You mean teaching evidence based science instead of their biblical
>>>> myth about the universe being created in seven 24-hour days, the earth
>>>> being only 6000 years old and man walking with dinosaurs just like in
>>>> the cartoons?
>>>>
>>> Isn't it strange that the highest rates of teenage pregnancy are in
>>> those areas of the US where xtian fundies try to limit science and sex
>>> education.
>>> Graham
>>>
>> Isn't it sickening that some gut-****ed canucklehead has to be down
>> talking shit in OUR news groups.
>>
>> **** off and die, you asshole!
>
> "OUR news groups"...what makes them "OUR" news groups? Americans don't own the friggin InterNet

Yeah we do!

> or the fricken world either.
> ===

We're leasing it from the Euro banksters, cope.

Roy > wrote in
:

>> > Isn't it strange that the highest rates of teenage
>> > pregnancy are in those areas of the US where xtian fundies
>> > try to limit science and sex education.
>> > Graham
>> >
>> Isn't it sickening that some gut-****ed canucklehead has to
>> be down talking shit in OUR news groups.
>>
>> **** off and die, you asshole!

Ah the benefits of a classical education...

> "OUR news groups"...what makes them "OUR" news groups?
> Americans don't own the friggin InterNet or the fricken world
> either.

Wow, this reminds me of the WebTV wars of...ah who cares how long
ago that was...when they thought we were encroaching on THEIR
newsgroups? Oh well. As a wise man once said: Don't let idiots
ruin your day.

--

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice,
you have chosen the side of the oppressor " --
Desmond Tutu

---
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Michel Boucher wrote:
> MisterDiddyWahDiddy > wrote in
> :
>
>> I am, of course, supporting Bernie.
>
> If I was in the US, I would be doing that too.
>
You're a traitor to two nations, you Quebequois POS.

Michel Boucher wrote:
> Roy > wrote in
> :
>
>>>> Isn't it strange that the highest rates of teenage
>>>> pregnancy are in those areas of the US where xtian fundies
>>>> try to limit science and sex education.
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>> Isn't it sickening that some gut-****ed canucklehead has to
>>> be down talking shit in OUR news groups.
>>>
>>> **** off and die, you asshole!
>
> Ah the benefits of a classical education...

Ah the whinging of a pathetic Qebequois separatist.


>> "OUR news groups"...what makes them "OUR" news groups?
>> Americans don't own the friggin InterNet or the fricken world
>> either.
>
> Wow, this reminds me of the WebTV wars of...ah who cares how long
> ago that was...when they thought we were encroaching on THEIR
> newsgroups? Oh well.

Looks like you hosers have worn out your welcome before.

Now there's a surprise, not!

> As a wise man once said: Don't let idiots
> ruin your day.


**** off back to your own newsgroups, Frenchy!

Janet B wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:26:31 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:50:27 -0600, "cshenk" > wrote:
> >
> >> sf wrote in rec.food.cooking:
> >>
> >> > On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:10:30 -0700, Embudo > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm talking about a state photo id - not a driver's license.
> >> > >
> >> > > Most states will issue a low cost or even free photo id.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> http://www.immihelp.com/newcomer/get...se-photo-id.ht
> >> > > ml >> > >
> >> > > http://www.ncdot.gov/dmv/driver/id/
> >> >
> >> > And where are these places located? Some states have all but
> >> > eliminated them in counties that are "problematic" - aka: not
> >> > republican enough.
> >>
> >> Site please?
> >
> > http://prospect.org/article/22-state...restrictions-t
> > hreatens-shift-outcomes-tight-races
>
> Thanks for the good read.
> Janet US

It's a bunch of crap. Worse than the National Enquirer. The most
blatent is that some criminal offenses DO remove the ability to vote
and they act like this is wrong. Sorry, but some DO remove that for
life.

Fact, you need more proof to get federal aide like food stamps, than to
vote.

--

Embudo wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> sf wrote:
> >On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:10:30 -0700, Embudo > wrote:
> >
> > > sf wrote:
> >>>On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:56:52 -0700, Embudo > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Most states will issue them for those who do not or can not
> > > > > drive.
> > > >
> > > > You don't get one if you can't drive. To drive well enough to
> > > > pass the driving portion of the test (try parallel parking on
> > > > the first pass if you've never done it before, try figuring out
> > > > a maze of traffic signs instructing vehicles if you usually
> > > > take the bus). To pass the test, you need behind the wheel
> > > > experience and you won't get experience if you don't have a car.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm talking about a state photo id - not a driver's license.
> > >
> > > Most states will issue a low cost or even free photo id.
> > >
> > > http://www.immihelp.com/newcomer/get...cense-photo-id.
> > > html
> > >
> > > http://www.ncdot.gov/dmv/driver/id/
> >
> > And where are these places located?
>
> DMV offices mostly.
>
> Some state offer satellite locations too.
>
> > Some states have all but
> > eliminated them in counties that are "problematic" - aka: not
> > republican enough.
>
>
> That is utter BULLSHIT!

It's also not true.

--

cshenk wrote:
> Embudo wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>> sf wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 15:10:30 -0700, Embudo > wrote:
>>>
>>>> sf wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:56:52 -0700, Embudo > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Most states will issue them for those who do not or can not
>>>>>> drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't get one if you can't drive. To drive well enough to
>>>>> pass the driving portion of the test (try parallel parking on
>>>>> the first pass if you've never done it before, try figuring out
>>>>> a maze of traffic signs instructing vehicles if you usually
>>>>> take the bus). To pass the test, you need behind the wheel
>>>>> experience and you won't get experience if you don't have a car.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm talking about a state photo id - not a driver's license.
>>>>
>>>> Most states will issue a low cost or even free photo id.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.immihelp.com/newcomer/get...cense-photo-id.
>>>> html
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ncdot.gov/dmv/driver/id/
>>>
>>> And where are these places located?
>>
>> DMV offices mostly.
>>
>> Some state offer satellite locations too.
>>
>>> Some states have all but
>>> eliminated them in counties that are "problematic" - aka: not
>>> republican enough.
>>
>>
>> That is utter BULLSHIT!
>
> It's also not true.
>
De vera!

graham wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On 11/11/2015 1:18 PM, sf wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:42:01 -0600, Michel Boucher
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Janet B > wrote in
> > > :
> > >
> > > > > > Better access to abortion should avoid the
> > > > > > problem of later term procedures.
> > > > >
> > > > > It all starts with better access to birth control.
> > > >
> > > > exactly.
> > > > Janet US
> > >
> > > And that starts with proper (not judgmental) education.
> >
> > You mean teaching evidence based science instead of their biblical
> > myth about the universe being created in seven 24-hour days, the
> > earth being only 6000 years old and man walking with dinosaurs just
> > like in the cartoons?
> >
> Isn't it strange that the highest rates of teenage pregnancy are in
> those areas of the US where xtian fundies try to limit science and
> sex education. Graham

LOL, sad but true.

--

cshenk wrote:
> graham wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>> On 11/11/2015 1:18 PM, sf wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:42:01 -0600, Michel Boucher
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Janet B > wrote in
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>>>> Better access to abortion should avoid the
>>>>>>> problem of later term procedures.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It all starts with better access to birth control.
>>>>>
>>>>> exactly.
>>>>> Janet US
>>>>
>>>> And that starts with proper (not judgmental) education.
>>>
>>> You mean teaching evidence based science instead of their biblical
>>> myth about the universe being created in seven 24-hour days, the
>>> earth being only 6000 years old and man walking with dinosaurs just
>>> like in the cartoons?
>>>
>> Isn't it strange that the highest rates of teenage pregnancy are in
>> those areas of the US where xtian fundies try to limit science and
>> sex education. Graham
>
> LOL, sad but true.
>
Nope, one more lie.

http://www.americashealthrankings.or...TeenBirth/2012

United States Teen Birth Rate (1993-2014)

Number of births per 1,000 females aged 15 to 19 years.

50 47.5 New Mexico

No go on, tell us how New Mexico is run by "fundies" who "limit science
and sex education".

http://sexetc.org/states/newmexico

New Mexico state law requires sexuality education.

Teaching about contraceptives, such as condoms, the Pill, or the Patch,
is also required, but does not need to be stressed.

You do not need your parents’ permission to participate in sexuality
education or HIV/AIDS education classes.

Yes, you can buy condoms, and you do not have to be a certain age to buy
them. Teens of any age can buy condoms from a drugstore, pharmacy,
grocery store, or even online. They are relatively inexpensive. A pack
of twelve condoms costs about $12. Female condoms are about $2 to $4
per condom.
•You can get condoms for free or at a reduced cost from health clinics
(like Planned Parenthood), HIV testing centers, and local health
departments. (Call 1-800-230-PLAN (7526) for the nearest Planned
Parenthood Health Center.)

All minors are allowed to get a prescription for birth control without a
parent’s permission.

If you go to a Title X clinic, your appointment will be completely
confidential, including your billing and your records.

Title X clinics provide sexual and reproductive health care to the
public (girls, boys, teens and adults). Title X clinics offer many
services, including prescriptions for the Pill, pregnancy option
counseling, and testing for pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases,
including HIV.

If you are under or over 18 years old and want an abortion, you are not
required to ask your parent/s or guardian for permission, or tell them.
A law that would have required parental consent has been permanently
blocked by the courts.
There is no mandatory waiting period in your state before a teen can get
an abortion.
Your state provides Medicaid coverage for medically necessary abortions.

People of any age can buy Plan B One-Step without a prescription over
the counter at a local pharmacy. Next Choice, Next Choice One Dose, My
Way and Levonorgestrel are approved for sale without a prescription to
those who are 17 and older from a pharmacist. If you are 16 or younger,
you will need a prescription for Next Choice, Next Choice One Dose, My
Way and Levonorgestrel. The EC pill ella is only available with a
prescription regardless of age. Prices may vary for each of these
options depending on the brand, the pharmacy and which state you are in.


You sap.

On 11/11/2015 4:26 PM, sf wrote:

>>
> So the answer is to limit voting to citizens with no outstanding
> tickets who have a hard copy of birth certificates. Yeah, sure.
> That's encouraging voter participation. Not. If I had to obtain a
> birth certificate from another state just to vote, I'd consider it an
> impediment of my voting rights. If this birth certificate thing is SO
> important, then the states should be sharing that information
> electronically and the transaction should be absolutely free to the
> person who is required to present it.
>

Birth certificates are required for many things as you go through life.
Most everyone has one and most parents take care of them and pass them
on to adult children. If you lose it, why should my tax dollars
subsidize you getting a "free" replacement?

While parking tickets should not be an impediment to voting, the person
in the story is not very responsible. Yet she is allowed to choose our
nation's leaders.

wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 9:06:58 AM UTC-8, Janet B wrote:
> > On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:27:12 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:27:48 -0500, Dave Smith
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Better access to abortion should avoid the
> > >> problem of later term procedures.
> > >
> > > It all starts with better access to birth control.
> >
> > exactly.
> > Janet US
>
> But the late term abortion is not caused by dawdling or a failure to
> use birth control. It is caused typically by an ultrasound on a wanted
> child revealing a serious birth defect, like a fetus without a
> cerebrum or a cerebellum. Or a Down syndrome child, who will either
> die at a tragically young age, or far outlive the parents (both of
> which I have seen).

I have no problem with late term medical abortions when it's a radical
case (though I'd not do it over downs syndrome, life span is normal).

When I was 19, I worked as a nurses aide. There was a lady who had
break through bleeding all along her pregnancy that turned out to be
cervical cancer (which had spread). She was 5 months along. She died 6
weeks later before the child had even a shred of a chance to make it.

*If* she had opted for a late term abortion along with the hysterectomy
she needed then chemo, she might have made it. As it is, she's the
real story of the medical need.

--

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 11/11/2015 4:26 PM, sf wrote:
>
>>>
>> So the answer is to limit voting to citizens with no outstanding
>> tickets who have a hard copy of birth certificates. Yeah, sure.
>> That's encouraging voter participation. Not. If I had to obtain a
>> birth certificate from another state just to vote, I'd consider it an
>> impediment of my voting rights. If this birth certificate thing is SO
>> important, then the states should be sharing that information
>> electronically and the transaction should be absolutely free to the
>> person who is required to present it.
>>
>
> Birth certificates are required for many things as you go through life.
> Most everyone has one and most parents take care of them and pass them
> on to adult children. If you lose it, why should my tax dollars
> subsidize you getting a "free" replacement?

Furthermore would the same "freebie" apply to your SSN card?

> While parking tickets should not be an impediment to voting, the person
> in the story is not very responsible. Yet she is allowed to choose our
> nation's leaders.

And a whopping 53% of Dems want illegals voting in OUR elections!

Madness, sheer madness.

On 11/11/2015 4:28 PM, sf wrote:

>>
>> But I draw the line at subsidizing document searches for the terminally
>> lazy, clueless, or otherwise disconnected mooches.
>>
>> Voting demands some degree of personal accountability, period.
>
> Republican BS, designed to make bullies feel superior.
>

I'm not a Republican but I really think people have to be responsible
for themselves.

Janet B wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:29:25 -0800 (PST),
> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 9:06:58 AM UTC-8, Janet B wrote:
> >> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:27:12 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:27:48 -0500, Dave Smith
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Better access to abortion should avoid the
> >> >> problem of later term procedures.
> >> >
> >> >It all starts with better access to birth control.
> >>
> >> exactly.
> >> Janet US
> >
> > But the late term abortion is not caused by dawdling or a failure
> > to use birth control. It is caused typically by an ultrasound on a
> > wanted child revealing a serious birth defect, like a fetus without
> > a cerebrum or a cerebellum. Or a Down syndrome child, who will
> > either die at a tragically young age, or far outlive the parents
> > (both of which I have seen).
>
> Yes. I understand that abortions are not used as a method of birth
> control. Conservatives seem to take the stand that abortions are used
> for birth control.
> Janet US

Hi Janet, one of the problems in this discussion is 'what is a late
term abortion'. The bar keeps lowering so muddies the picture. I was 3
months and 2 weeks before I knew I was pregnant. Irregular cycles.
Some of the poasts mak it see like anything after 12 weeks is 'late
term'.

Carol

--

cshenk wrote:
> Janet B wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:29:25 -0800 (PST),
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 9:06:58 AM UTC-8, Janet B wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:27:12 -0800, sf > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:27:48 -0500, Dave Smith
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Better access to abortion should avoid the
>>>>>> problem of later term procedures.
>>>>>
>>>>> It all starts with better access to birth control.
>>>>
>>>> exactly.
>>>> Janet US
>>>
>>> But the late term abortion is not caused by dawdling or a failure
>>> to use birth control. It is caused typically by an ultrasound on a
>>> wanted child revealing a serious birth defect, like a fetus without
>>> a cerebrum or a cerebellum. Or a Down syndrome child, who will
>>> either die at a tragically young age, or far outlive the parents
>>> (both of which I have seen).
>>
>> Yes. I understand that abortions are not used as a method of birth
>> control. Conservatives seem to take the stand that abortions are used
>> for birth control.
>> Janet US
>
> Hi Janet, one of the problems in this discussion is 'what is a late
> term abortion'. The bar keeps lowering so muddies the picture. I was 3
> months and 2 weeks before I knew I was pregnant. Irregular cycles.
> Some of the poasts mak it see like anything after 12 weeks is 'late
> term'.
>
> Carol
>

You must be delusional

20 weeks.


http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...+term+abortion

Any abortion performed after the fetus would be viable if delivered to a
nonspecialized health center.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...term-abortion/

Though most states have restrictions against late-term abortions, two
states moved bills this week that would make those restrictions tighter.
The Kansas Senate passed a bill Wednesday prohibiting most abortions
after the 21st week of pregnancy. At the same time, the Idaho Senate
backed a similar proposal with a 20-week threshold.

The bills were modeled after legislation passed last year in Nebraska
premised on research suggesting a fetus is able to feel pain after 20
weeks. Similar proposals are percolating in at least nine other states,
according to one organization's estimate.

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 11:45:50 AM UTC-8, Embudo wrote:
> sf wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:57:18 -0800 (PST),
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Any "free" photo ID should mean that the state covers the cost of
> >> gathering the supporting documents required.
> >
> > Agree.
> >
>
> I do NOT agree.
>
> A "free" ID is fine, of course the rest of us subsidize it.
>
> But I draw the line at subsidizing document searches for the terminally
> lazy, clueless, or otherwise disconnected mooches.
>
> Voting demands some degree of personal accountability, period.

My MIL didn't need a photo ID to vote back when she was the sole support
of her widowed mother and her six siblings, after her coal miner immigrant
dad died from black lung disease.

My MIL did not need photo ID to vote when she was Rosie the Riveter,
assembling B-24s.

My MIL did not need photo ID to vote when she welcomed her noncommissioned
Marine Aviator husband back from Okinawa, or her Marine baby brother
who had fought and almost died on Iwo Jima.

Nor did my MIL need photo ID to vote during the 50s, the 60s, the 70s
the 80s, the 90s, the 00's, or as late as 2014. The time when she
was either working or raising a family, or both.

So you would call my MIL a "mooch"? If anything, this country has been
mooching off her.

On 11/11/2015 3:07 PM, Dave Smith wrote:

>
> Enjoy the honeymoon with the Liberals. I give them about 4 months before
> people become disenchanted with them.

It'll take much longer than that to undo the damage done by the Con
Dictator!
Graham


--
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play.
It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness,
disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in
witnessing violence." George Orwell

wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 11:45:50 AM UTC-8, Embudo wrote:
>> sf wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 10:57:18 -0800 (PST),
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Any "free" photo ID should mean that the state covers the cost of
>>>> gathering the supporting documents required.
>>>
>>> Agree.
>>>
>>
>> I do NOT agree.
>>
>> A "free" ID is fine, of course the rest of us subsidize it.
>>
>> But I draw the line at subsidizing document searches for the terminally
>> lazy, clueless, or otherwise disconnected mooches.
>>
>> Voting demands some degree of personal accountability, period.
>
> My MIL didn't need a photo ID to vote back when she was the sole support
> of her widowed mother and her six siblings, after her coal miner immigrant
> dad died from black lung disease.

Get out the violin section!

> My MIL did not need photo ID to vote when she was Rosie the Riveter,
> assembling B-24s.

How many illegals did we have in the US then?

> My MIL did not need photo ID to vote when she welcomed her noncommissioned
> Marine Aviator husband back from Okinawa, or her Marine baby brother
> who had fought and almost died on Iwo Jima.

Cue up the band!

How many illegals were in the USA then????

> Nor did my MIL need photo ID to vote during the 50s, the 60s, the 70s
> the 80s, the 90s, the 00's, or as late as 2014. The time when she
> was either working or raising a family, or both.

Because she had properly ESTABLISHED residency, dolt!

> So you would call my MIL a "mooch"? If anything, this country has been
> mooching off her.

Did she get a free birth certificate?

Stop trying to run a pity party on your family lineage.

This nation is awash in 10-20 million ILLEGALS!

I bet your red white and blue family members damned well have photo ID
drivers licenses.

Hint - a FREE Photo ID is available in most states.

This is a temp[est in a leftarded teapot - PERIOD!

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 11:56:16 AM UTC-8, Embudo wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 9:06:58 AM UTC-8, Janet B wrote:
> >> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:27:12 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:27:48 -0500, Dave Smith
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Better access to abortion should avoid the
> >>>> problem of later term procedures.
> >>>
> >>> It all starts with better access to birth control.
> >>
> >> exactly.
> >> Janet US
> >
> > But the late term abortion is not caused by dawdling or a failure to
> > use birth control.
> Oh?
>
> You're omniscient as to EVERY late term abortion's circumstances?
>
> I think not!
>
> https://prustice.wordpress.com/2009/...erm-abortions/
>
> Dr. George Tiller, the man complicated Gov. Kathleen Sebilious
> confirmation process with the money he, a late-term abortionist, gave to
> her for political reasons, has on his website, http://www.drtiller.com/
> , a list of some medical complications that he and other physicians give
> as reasons to abort the baby.
>
> So I did some google'ing to read about these complex medical
> terminologies in order to better understand where these women are when
> they make this choice.
>
> To be honest, I don't know what to think about a few of these. However,
> there are some that I firmly believe are no reason to take that innocent
> child's life.
>
> See for yourself. And if I'm not making sense with my "medical
> explanations" please research these yourself.
>
> Admission Criteria (link to Dr. Tiller's Admission into his clinic's
> Criteria)
>
> Trisomy 21: Down Syndrome
>
> Trisomy 13 & 18: mental retardation, 90 percent of babies born with it
> die before the age of 1.
>
> Anencephaly: a severe head disorder, occurs when the head end of the
> neural tube fails to close, absence of a major portion of the brain,
> skull, and scalp. Children with this disorder are born without a
> forebrain, the largest part of the brain. The remaining brain tissue is
> often exposed--not covered by bone or skin.
>
> Polycystic Kidney Disease: cysts on the babies kidney. It takes many
> years for this to cause the kidneys to fail and can be treated with
> dialysis or kidney transplantation. 600,000 people in the U.S. are
> living with PKD.
>
> Spina Bifida: the most common permanently disabling birth defect in the
> U.S. The spine of the baby fails to close, he or she won't be able to
> walk. 70,000 people in the U.S. are living with SB.
>
> Hydrocephalus: there is an excessive amount of fluid in the brain.
> Infants experience vomiting, large head size, sleepiness, irritability,
> downward deviation of the eyes ("sunsetting") and seizures. Older
> children and adults may experience different symptoms such as, headache
> followed by vomiting, nausea, papilledema (swelling of the optic disk
> which is part of the optic nerve), blurred or double vision, sunsetting,
> problems with balance, poor coordination, gait disturbance, urinary
> incontinence, slowing or loss of developmental progress, lethargy,
> drowsiness, irritability, or other changes in personality or cognition
> including memory loss. Hydrocephalus is very treatable.
>
> Potter's Syndrome: there is a total absence or malformation of infant
> kidneys. Vast majority of babies die at birth or shortly afterwards.
>
> Lethal Dwarfism: this is very rare. Some symptoms are a large head, wide
> front fontanel, corneal clouding, closed off ear canals, and very short
> arms. Nearly half of the babies that have this die before they're born.
>
> Holoprosencephaly: In most cases, the brain does not divide into lobes,
> which severely deforms the skull and face. Sometimes the brain is
> partially or nearly divided, making the symptoms much less severe. In
> the absolute worst cases, the baby dies in the womb.
>
> Anterior and Posterior Encephalocele: this complication leads to
> chromosomal anomaly, most common anomaly being Trisomy 18. Patients with
> an anterior encephalocele have a 100% survival rate, but only 55% in
> persons with a posterior encephalocele. Encephalocele reduces the chance
> of live birth to 21%, and only half of those live births survive.
> Approximately 75% of survivors have a mental deficit. The absence of
> brain tissue in the herniated sac is the single most favorable
> prognostic feature for survival.
>
> Non-Immune Hydrops: Excess of extra-cellular fluid in two or more sites
> without any identifiable circulating antibody to red cell antigens.
> There are treatments to perform while the baby is still in the womb,
> however the prognosis is generally very poor with very high peri-natal
> mortality.
>
> > It is caused typically by an ultrasound on a wanted
> > child revealing a serious birth defect, like a fetus without a
> > cerebrum or a cerebellum.
>
> "Typically"?
>
> Citation????

You just gave an excellent citation, Ace. Severely damaged fetuses who
will not live outside the womb. Or will have severe mental deficits.
Did you read it?


>
> http://www.womenscenter.com/abortion_reasons.html
>
> The most common underlying reasons for abortion were

The topic is LATE-TERM abortions, Ace. Not every abortion.
By 24 weeks, the pregnancies are wanted. Only tragic circumstances would
lead to termination now.

> 1) they could not
> afford a child at the time and were unmarried (42%), 2) it would
> interfere with their education (38%), 3) it would interfere with their
> employment (38%), and 4) they were students or planning to enroll in
> studies (34%). Other reasons are having relationship problems, not ready
> for another child, or don't want people to know they had sex or got
> pregnant, the health of the fetus, victim of rape, or became pregnant as
> result of incest.
>
>
> http://www.winmentalhealth.com/late_...nformation.php
>
> Approximately 10% or one in ten abortions performed are later-term,
> after the first trimester (Terkel).
> Risk of the mother's death for abortions between 16 and 20 weeks is one
> in 29,000.
> Risk of death at 21 weeks and beyond is one in 11,000.
> Only 1.2% of abortions are performed 20 weeks or later (about 13,200 in
> the U.S. in 2011) (Planned Parenthood).
> Psychological or emotional damage to the woman or teen is more common
> and can be more intense with late-term abortion than with abortions
> (Coleman, Coyle, Rue. 2014).
> Approximately 10-percent of women have an abortion after the first three
> months of pregnancy, what most consider to be later term, that is four
> months or later. Only approximately one-percent of abortions, or 1.2%
> more precisely, are performed late-term, after 20 weeks of pregnancy.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_t...n_of_pregnancy
>
> In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from
> 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions.
> Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks.
> These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had
> not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results
> were as follows:[7]
>
> 71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
> 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
> 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
> 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
> 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
> 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
> 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
> 6% Woman didn't know timing is important
> 5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
> 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
> 11% Other
> A new study in 2013 shows that most women seeking late term abortion
> "fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone,
> were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male
> partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then
> had access problems, or were young and nulliparous."[21]
>
>
> > Or a Down syndrome child, who will either
> > die at a tragically young age, or far outlive the parents (both of
> > which I have seen).
> >

The Down syndrome daughter outlived her parents by 50 years. If it
happened to you, what arrangements would you make for her lifetime care?

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 2:39:09 PM UTC-8, Michel Boucher wrote:
> "cshenk" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Ok, but we see folks saying folks in their 90s cant vote. Um,
> > that's a state problem becuse by then they are drawing social
> > security so have a SSN card (or number). THat is one of the
> > 20 or so ways to show identity.
> >
> > If your elderly parent lives with you, you just have to be
> > there to validate the address. It's not an issue.
> >
> > Now if some states get wierd and require specifics, that is
> > wrong. Mine is reasonable. Texas seems the only one off set.
> > Maybe they have more issues with illegal folks there?
>
> In Canada we only have one set of rules for federal elections.
> They may be flawed (not for long) but they are at least
> understandable.
>
> Your system is so totaly anti-democratic, I suggest you scrap
> it and start over from scratch, consulting with other nations
> as to the most efficient type of ballot, most efficient type
> of ID, etc.
>
> Hint: ballots? Paper! (duh)
>
> Hint: ID? National identity cards (common in Europe)


National identity card == mandatory photo ID. None of that Ihre Papiere,
bitte! crap for me. I was born free and I intend to stay that way.

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 3:34:11 PM UTC-8, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 11/11/2015 4:26 PM, sf wrote:
>
> >>
> > So the answer is to limit voting to citizens with no outstanding
> > tickets who have a hard copy of birth certificates. Yeah, sure.
> > That's encouraging voter participation. Not. If I had to obtain a
> > birth certificate from another state just to vote, I'd consider it an
> > impediment of my voting rights. If this birth certificate thing is SO
> > important, then the states should be sharing that information
> > electronically and the transaction should be absolutely free to the
> > person who is required to present it.
> >
>
> Birth certificates are required for many things as you go through life.

Really? I haven't needed one since I was 18. What on God's green earth
is making you dig yours up all the time?

> Most everyone has one and most parents take care of them and pass them
> on to adult children. If you lose it, why should my tax dollars
> subsidize you getting a "free" replacement?

My parents are long dead. Have pity on me, an orphan.

>
> While parking tickets should not be an impediment to voting, the person
> in the story is not very responsible. Yet she is allowed to choose our
> nation's leaders.

Yep. All you have to be is a non-felon.

wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 11:56:16 AM UTC-8, Embudo wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 9:06:58 AM UTC-8, Janet B wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:27:12 -0800, sf > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 17:27:48 -0500, Dave Smith
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Better access to abortion should avoid the
>>>>>> problem of later term procedures.
>>>>>
>>>>> It all starts with better access to birth control.
>>>>
>>>> exactly.
>>>> Janet US
>>>
>>> But the late term abortion is not caused by dawdling or a failure to
>>> use birth control.
>> Oh?
>>
>> You're omniscient as to EVERY late term abortion's circumstances?
>>
>> I think not!
>>
>> https://prustice.wordpress.com/2009/...erm-abortions/
>>
>> Dr. George Tiller, the man complicated Gov. Kathleen Sebilious
>> confirmation process with the money he, a late-term abortionist, gave to
>> her for political reasons, has on his website, http://www.drtiller.com/
>> , a list of some medical complications that he and other physicians give
>> as reasons to abort the baby.
>>
>> So I did some google'ing to read about these complex medical
>> terminologies in order to better understand where these women are when
>> they make this choice.
>>
>> To be honest, I don't know what to think about a few of these. However,
>> there are some that I firmly believe are no reason to take that innocent
>> child's life.
>>
>> See for yourself. And if I'm not making sense with my "medical
>> explanations" please research these yourself.
>>
>> Admission Criteria (link to Dr. Tiller's Admission into his clinic's
>> Criteria)
>>
>> Trisomy 21: Down Syndrome
>>
>> Trisomy 13 & 18: mental retardation, 90 percent of babies born with it
>> die before the age of 1.
>>
>> Anencephaly: a severe head disorder, occurs when the head end of the
>> neural tube fails to close, absence of a major portion of the brain,
>> skull, and scalp. Children with this disorder are born without a
>> forebrain, the largest part of the brain. The remaining brain tissue is
>> often exposed--not covered by bone or skin.
>>
>> Polycystic Kidney Disease: cysts on the babies kidney. It takes many
>> years for this to cause the kidneys to fail and can be treated with
>> dialysis or kidney transplantation. 600,000 people in the U.S. are
>> living with PKD.
>>
>> Spina Bifida: the most common permanently disabling birth defect in the
>> U.S. The spine of the baby fails to close, he or she won't be able to
>> walk. 70,000 people in the U.S. are living with SB.
>>
>> Hydrocephalus: there is an excessive amount of fluid in the brain.
>> Infants experience vomiting, large head size, sleepiness, irritability,
>> downward deviation of the eyes ("sunsetting") and seizures. Older
>> children and adults may experience different symptoms such as, headache
>> followed by vomiting, nausea, papilledema (swelling of the optic disk
>> which is part of the optic nerve), blurred or double vision, sunsetting,
>> problems with balance, poor coordination, gait disturbance, urinary
>> incontinence, slowing or loss of developmental progress, lethargy,
>> drowsiness, irritability, or other changes in personality or cognition
>> including memory loss. Hydrocephalus is very treatable.
>>
>> Potter's Syndrome: there is a total absence or malformation of infant
>> kidneys. Vast majority of babies die at birth or shortly afterwards.
>>
>> Lethal Dwarfism: this is very rare. Some symptoms are a large head, wide
>> front fontanel, corneal clouding, closed off ear canals, and very short
>> arms. Nearly half of the babies that have this die before they're born.
>>
>> Holoprosencephaly: In most cases, the brain does not divide into lobes,
>> which severely deforms the skull and face. Sometimes the brain is
>> partially or nearly divided, making the symptoms much less severe. In
>> the absolute worst cases, the baby dies in the womb.
>>
>> Anterior and Posterior Encephalocele: this complication leads to
>> chromosomal anomaly, most common anomaly being Trisomy 18. Patients with
>> an anterior encephalocele have a 100% survival rate, but only 55% in
>> persons with a posterior encephalocele. Encephalocele reduces the chance
>> of live birth to 21%, and only half of those live births survive.
>> Approximately 75% of survivors have a mental deficit. The absence of
>> brain tissue in the herniated sac is the single most favorable
>> prognostic feature for survival.
>>
>> Non-Immune Hydrops: Excess of extra-cellular fluid in two or more sites
>> without any identifiable circulating antibody to red cell antigens.
>> There are treatments to perform while the baby is still in the womb,
>> however the prognosis is generally very poor with very high peri-natal
>> mortality.
>>
>>> It is caused typically by an ultrasound on a wanted
>>> child revealing a serious birth defect, like a fetus without a
>>> cerebrum or a cerebellum.
>>
>> "Typically"?
>>
>> Citation????
>
> You just gave an excellent citation, Ace. Severely damaged fetuses who
> will not live outside the womb. Or will have severe mental deficits.
> Did you read it?

Dis you think I have a problem with THAT medical necessity?

Dolt.

=
>>
>> http://www.womenscenter.com/abortion_reasons.html
>>
>> The most common underlying reasons for abortion were
>
> The topic is LATE-TERM abortions, Ace. Not every abortion.
> By 24 weeks, the pregnancies are wanted. Only tragic circumstances would
> lead to termination now.
>
>> 1) they could not
>> afford a child at the time and were unmarried (42%), 2) it would
>> interfere with their education (38%), 3) it would interfere with their
>> employment (38%), and 4) they were students or planning to enroll in
>> studies (34%). Other reasons are having relationship problems, not ready
>> for another child, or don't want people to know they had sex or got
>> pregnant, the health of the fetus, victim of rape, or became pregnant as
>> result of incest.
>>
>>
>> http://www.winmentalhealth.com/late_...nformation.php
>>
>> Approximately 10% or one in ten abortions performed are later-term,
>> after the first trimester (Terkel).
>> Risk of the mother's death for abortions between 16 and 20 weeks is one
>> in 29,000.
>> Risk of death at 21 weeks and beyond is one in 11,000.
>> Only 1.2% of abortions are performed 20 weeks or later (about 13,200 in
>> the U.S. in 2011) (Planned Parenthood).
>> Psychological or emotional damage to the woman or teen is more common
>> and can be more intense with late-term abortion than with abortions
>> (Coleman, Coyle, Rue. 2014).
>> Approximately 10-percent of women have an abortion after the first three
>> months of pregnancy, what most consider to be later term, that is four
>> months or later. Only approximately one-percent of abortions, or 1.2%
>> more precisely, are performed late-term, after 20 weeks of pregnancy.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_t...n_of_pregnancy
>>
>> In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute collected questionnaires from
>> 1,900 women in the United States who came to clinics to have abortions.
>> Of the 1,900 questioned, 420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks.
>> These 420 women were asked to choose among a list of reasons they had
>> not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. The results
>> were as follows:[7]
>>
>> 71% Woman didn't recognize she was pregnant or misjudged gestation
>> 48% Woman found it hard to make arrangements for abortion
>> 33% Woman was afraid to tell her partner or parents
>> 24% Woman took time to decide to have an abortion
>> 8% Woman waited for her relationship to change
>> 8% Someone pressured woman not to have abortion
>> 6% Something changed after woman became pregnant
>> 6% Woman didn't know timing is important
>> 5% Woman didn't know she could get an abortion
>> 2% A fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy
>> 11% Other
>> A new study in 2013 shows that most women seeking late term abortion
>> "fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone,
>> were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male
>> partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then
>> had access problems, or were young and nulliparous."[21]
>>
>>
>>> Or a Down syndrome child, who will either
>>> die at a tragically young age, or far outlive the parents (both of
>>> which I have seen).
>>>
>
> The Down syndrome daughter outlived her parents by 50 years. If it
> happened to you, what arrangements would you make for her lifetime care?

It wouldn't happen to "me".

I'd have done the testing and terminated, period.

wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 2:39:09 PM UTC-8, Michel Boucher wrote:
>> "cshenk" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Ok, but we see folks saying folks in their 90s cant vote. Um,
>>> that's a state problem becuse by then they are drawing social
>>> security so have a SSN card (or number). THat is one of the
>>> 20 or so ways to show identity.
>>>
>>> If your elderly parent lives with you, you just have to be
>>> there to validate the address. It's not an issue.
>>>
>>> Now if some states get wierd and require specifics, that is
>>> wrong. Mine is reasonable. Texas seems the only one off set.
>>> Maybe they have more issues with illegal folks there?
>>
>> In Canada we only have one set of rules for federal elections.
>> They may be flawed (not for long) but they are at least
>> understandable.
>>
>> Your system is so totaly anti-democratic, I suggest you scrap
>> it and start over from scratch, consulting with other nations
>> as to the most efficient type of ballot, most efficient type
>> of ID, etc.
>>
>> Hint: ballots? Paper! (duh)
>>
>> Hint: ID? National identity cards (common in Europe)
>
>
> National identity card == mandatory photo ID.

Yeah...so???

What, you wearing a head scarf or burka?

> None of that Ihre Papiere,
> bitte! crap for me. I was born free and I intend to stay that way.

Are you "free" to drive a car on our highways minus a PHOTO ID???

Well assmuch, are ya?

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 17:12:23 -0700, graham > wrote:

>On 11/11/2015 3:07 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>
>>
>> Enjoy the honeymoon with the Liberals. I give them about 4 months before
>> people become disenchanted with them.
>
>It'll take much longer than that to undo the damage done by the Con
>Dictator!
>Graham

I agree - I wasn't overly happy with a Trudeau in charge but he has
already done a couple of things I applaud. I like his cabinet which
he said looks like Canada - it does - especially since it is 50/50
male/female.

I think, like him or not, he exudes a warmth that Harper never did.

wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 3:34:11 PM UTC-8, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 11/11/2015 4:26 PM, sf wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>> So the answer is to limit voting to citizens with no outstanding
>>> tickets who have a hard copy of birth certificates. Yeah, sure.
>>> That's encouraging voter participation. Not. If I had to obtain a
>>> birth certificate from another state just to vote, I'd consider it an
>>> impediment of my voting rights. If this birth certificate thing is SO
>>> important, then the states should be sharing that information
>>> electronically and the transaction should be absolutely free to the
>>> person who is required to present it.
>>>
>>
>> Birth certificates are required for many things as you go through life.
>
> Really?

Really!

> I haven't needed one since I was 18.

You mean since you initially ESTABLISHED a valid ID.

So?

Guess you're not an illegal...

> What on God's green earth
> is making you dig yours up all the time?

Who said he is?

Straw man bullshit!

>> Most everyone has one and most parents take care of them and pass them
>> on to adult children. If you lose it, why should my tax dollars
>> subsidize you getting a "free" replacement?
>
> My parents are long dead. Have pity on me, an orphan.

Your leftard snark is piteous, for other reasons.

>> While parking tickets should not be an impediment to voting, the person
>> in the story is not very responsible. Yet she is allowed to choose our
>> nation's leaders.
>
> Yep. All you have to be is a non-felon.

And you revel in stupidity?

Why not.

You have your own to fall back on.

wrote:
> I like his cabinet which
> he said looks like Canada


Take it to can.politics, you dizzy ****!

wrote:
> Australia. When you go to get a drivers licence or register your
> vehicle, that's when they catch up with you if you did not vote.
> Excellent idea I think.

You never "think" biotch, you just spew your leftarded statist fascism
like some kind of bile pump.

GET LOST!

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:38:14 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

>On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 3:34:11 PM UTC-8, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 11/11/2015 4:26 PM, sf wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> > So the answer is to limit voting to citizens with no outstanding
>> > tickets who have a hard copy of birth certificates. Yeah, sure.
>> > That's encouraging voter participation. Not. If I had to obtain a
>> > birth certificate from another state just to vote, I'd consider it an
>> > impediment of my voting rights. If this birth certificate thing is SO
>> > important, then the states should be sharing that information
>> > electronically and the transaction should be absolutely free to the
>> > person who is required to present it.
>> >
>>
>> Birth certificates are required for many things as you go through life.
>
>Really? I haven't needed one since I was 18. What on God's green earth
>is making you dig yours up all the time?
>
>> Most everyone has one and most parents take care of them and pass them
>> on to adult children. If you lose it, why should my tax dollars
>> subsidize you getting a "free" replacement?
>
>My parents are long dead. Have pity on me, an orphan.
>
>>
>> While parking tickets should not be an impediment to voting, the person
>> in the story is not very responsible. Yet she is allowed to choose our
>> nation's leaders.
>
>Yep. All you have to be is a non-felon.

I could produce my birth certificate but all I needed in our recent
Canadian election was my drivers licence (has a pic on it) and also my
address, this allows the monitors to put a line through my name so I
cannot vote again.

wrote:
> Happily, in our recent Canadian
> election, we were so determined to get rid of the incumbent that voter
> turnout was a record


So you elected Canuckistan's Kennedy Jr.

Royal families will _always_ let you down.

Enjoy, biotch!

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 5:06:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:38:14 -0800 (PST),
> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 3:34:11 PM UTC-8, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >> On 11/11/2015 4:26 PM, sf wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >> > So the answer is to limit voting to citizens with no outstanding
> >> > tickets who have a hard copy of birth certificates. Yeah, sure.
> >> > That's encouraging voter participation. Not. If I had to obtain a
> >> > birth certificate from another state just to vote, I'd consider it an
> >> > impediment of my voting rights. If this birth certificate thing is SO
> >> > important, then the states should be sharing that information
> >> > electronically and the transaction should be absolutely free to the
> >> > person who is required to present it.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Birth certificates are required for many things as you go through life.
> >
> >Really? I haven't needed one since I was 18. What on God's green earth
> >is making you dig yours up all the time?
> >
> >> Most everyone has one and most parents take care of them and pass them
> >> on to adult children. If you lose it, why should my tax dollars
> >> subsidize you getting a "free" replacement?
> >
> >My parents are long dead. Have pity on me, an orphan.
> >
> >>
> >> While parking tickets should not be an impediment to voting, the person
> >> in the story is not very responsible. Yet she is allowed to choose our
> >> nation's leaders.
> >
> >Yep. All you have to be is a non-felon.
>
> I could produce my birth certificate but all I needed in our recent
> Canadian election was my drivers licence (has a pic on it) and also my
> address, this allows the monitors to put a line through my name so I
> cannot vote again.

Canada is not a free country if you have to produce identification
in order to exercise a fundamental right.
How did Canadians vote before Kodak made his invention? Did they have
to bring in an oil portrait?