try pre cooking filling so half done ... nuke it in micro ... let it cool
off then make as before except use all butter or any veg oil instead of marj
.. cook at higher temp on wire rack or pizza stone until done
try with mushrooms.
eggplant
cubed celeriac
chile peppers
peas
cheese
merry xmas
ttfn andy

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gemme" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I decided to make some pasties. Last night I made flakey pastry for
> > the first time ever. I used 2oz of margarine and 8oz of flour for the
> > initial paste, and added a further 4oz of butter during the folding
> > and rolling out stages.
> >
> > Today I made the pasties (pastry rested in the fridge overnight). I
> > filled them with finely chopped onion, potato and carrot (as a
> > substitute for swede), seasoned with salt and black pepper (I'm
> > vegetarian). The filling went in the pasties raw. I cut slits in the
> > top of the pasties to release the steam during cooking, and brushed
> > the tops with milk for good measure.
> >
> > I put the pasties in a hot gas oven, bottom shelf. After about 20
> > minutes I turned them round (the pastry was a nice darkish brown) and
> > turned down the flame to give the contents a chance to cook without
> > burning the pastry. After a further 20 minutes, I had as poke around
> > at the contents of one and found that the filling was basically
> > cooked. I checked the underside of the pasties but discovered that
> > the pastry was still pale.
> >
> > The tops of the pasties couldn't be browned any further without
> > burning them, so I decided to flip the pasties to give the pastry on
> > the underside a chance to cook. It was pale and soft all over, and
> > even sort of translucent in patches where the filling must have been
> > the most moist. It took a further 20 minutes on a low flame to dry
> > this pastry out, and lightly brown it.
> >
> > Pasties are supposed to be darker on the bottom than on the top. The
> > pastry needs to be cooked quite hard, otherwise they aren't suitable
> > for picking up and eating with your hands as the weight of the filling
> > will just drop through the pastry.
> >
> > So, what was I doing wrong? How do I ensure the pastry on the bottom
> > is cooked properly without having to flip the pasties?
> >
> > I've already decided the the filling needed more seasoning. About
> > twice as much pepper (it should really warm your tounge) and possibly
> > a herb, though I want to keep it quite simple. And the buttery taste
> > of the pastry didn't suit the savoury filling, so I'll try making it
> > with trex or some other vegetable fat next time.
> >
> > Any tips appreciated!
> > Gemma.
>
> It's really hard to tell the exact problem without seeing the recipe.
> First, I say that there is nothing particularly good about using margarine
> for baking. Margarine can be upwards of 50% water and the soft margarines
> can have a lot of oil, gums, starches and other undesirable ingredients.
If
> you don't like the flavor of butter, then I would recommend lard or
> hydrogenated vegetable fat (Crisco) -- just say no to margarine.
>
> I would also recommend that you bake your pies and other pastries on the
> bottom shelf. This gives good bottom heat and tends to crisp the bottom.
> Browning of the pastry depends on a number of factors including the pH of
> the dough and the proteins and sugars. To increase browning you can use
an
> egg wash on the top only. Egg wash will glue the pastry to the pan if you
> use it on the bottom.
>
> One way of preventing your pastry from getting soggy is to use a baking or
> pizza stone. You can pre-heat the stone and place the pastries directly
on
> the hot stone or put them on parchment and then place them on the stone.
>
> You may also want to get an oven thermometer to verify that your oven is
> properly calibrated.
>
> In her book "The Pie and Pastry Bible" Beranbaum recommends a number of
> alternative pastries for empanadas (which I assume is what you are trying
to
> make.) I think I would start with a basic pie pastry and after mastering
> that modify it with by substituting some of the flour with whole wheat
flour
> or adding some grated cheese. If you have a food processor, making pie
> pastry is quite easy. Let me know if you want a basic pastry recipe.
>
>
>
>
>

Also cheese pineapple and potatoe with lots of chile.... serve with sour
cream and chive sauce ....
merry xmas
ttfn again andy

"chef" > wrote in message
...
> try pre cooking filling so half done ... nuke it in micro ... let it cool
> off then make as before except use all butter or any veg oil instead of
marj
> . cook at higher temp on wire rack or pizza stone until done
> try with mushrooms.
> eggplant
> cubed celeriac
> chile peppers
> peas
> cheese
> merry xmas
> ttfn andy
>
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gemme" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > I decided to make some pasties. Last night I made flakey pastry for
> > > the first time ever. I used 2oz of margarine and 8oz of flour for the
> > > initial paste, and added a further 4oz of butter during the folding
> > > and rolling out stages.
> > >
> > > Today I made the pasties (pastry rested in the fridge overnight). I
> > > filled them with finely chopped onion, potato and carrot (as a
> > > substitute for swede), seasoned with salt and black pepper (I'm
> > > vegetarian). The filling went in the pasties raw. I cut slits in the
> > > top of the pasties to release the steam during cooking, and brushed
> > > the tops with milk for good measure.
> > >
> > > I put the pasties in a hot gas oven, bottom shelf. After about 20
> > > minutes I turned them round (the pastry was a nice darkish brown) and
> > > turned down the flame to give the contents a chance to cook without
> > > burning the pastry. After a further 20 minutes, I had as poke around
> > > at the contents of one and found that the filling was basically
> > > cooked. I checked the underside of the pasties but discovered that
> > > the pastry was still pale.
> > >
> > > The tops of the pasties couldn't be browned any further without
> > > burning them, so I decided to flip the pasties to give the pastry on
> > > the underside a chance to cook. It was pale and soft all over, and
> > > even sort of translucent in patches where the filling must have been
> > > the most moist. It took a further 20 minutes on a low flame to dry
> > > this pastry out, and lightly brown it.
> > >
> > > Pasties are supposed to be darker on the bottom than on the top. The
> > > pastry needs to be cooked quite hard, otherwise they aren't suitable
> > > for picking up and eating with your hands as the weight of the filling
> > > will just drop through the pastry.
> > >
> > > So, what was I doing wrong? How do I ensure the pastry on the bottom
> > > is cooked properly without having to flip the pasties?
> > >
> > > I've already decided the the filling needed more seasoning. About
> > > twice as much pepper (it should really warm your tounge) and possibly
> > > a herb, though I want to keep it quite simple. And the buttery taste
> > > of the pastry didn't suit the savoury filling, so I'll try making it
> > > with trex or some other vegetable fat next time.
> > >
> > > Any tips appreciated!
> > > Gemma.
> >
> > It's really hard to tell the exact problem without seeing the recipe.
> > First, I say that there is nothing particularly good about using
margarine
> > for baking. Margarine can be upwards of 50% water and the soft
margarines
> > can have a lot of oil, gums, starches and other undesirable ingredients.
> If
> > you don't like the flavor of butter, then I would recommend lard or
> > hydrogenated vegetable fat (Crisco) -- just say no to margarine.
> >
> > I would also recommend that you bake your pies and other pastries on the
> > bottom shelf. This gives good bottom heat and tends to crisp the
bottom.
> > Browning of the pastry depends on a number of factors including the pH
of
> > the dough and the proteins and sugars. To increase browning you can use
> an
> > egg wash on the top only. Egg wash will glue the pastry to the pan if
you
> > use it on the bottom.
> >
> > One way of preventing your pastry from getting soggy is to use a baking
or
> > pizza stone. You can pre-heat the stone and place the pastries directly
> on
> > the hot stone or put them on parchment and then place them on the stone.
> >
> > You may also want to get an oven thermometer to verify that your oven is
> > properly calibrated.
> >
> > In her book "The Pie and Pastry Bible" Beranbaum recommends a number of
> > alternative pastries for empanadas (which I assume is what you are
trying
> to
> > make.) I think I would start with a basic pie pastry and after
mastering
> > that modify it with by substituting some of the flour with whole wheat
> flour
> > or adding some grated cheese. If you have a food processor, making pie
> > pastry is quite easy. Let me know if you want a basic pastry recipe.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

"Vox Humana" > wrote in
:

>
> "Gemme" > wrote in message
> om...
>> I decided to make some pasties. Last night I made flakey pastry for
>> the first time ever. I used 2oz of margarine and 8oz of flour for
>> the initial paste, and added a further 4oz of butter during the
>> folding and rolling out stages.
>>
>> Today I made the pasties (pastry rested in the fridge overnight). I
>> filled them with finely chopped onion, potato and carrot (as a
>> substitute for swede), seasoned with salt and black pepper (I'm
>> vegetarian). The filling went in the pasties raw. I cut slits in
>> the top of the pasties to release the steam during cooking, and
>> brushed the tops with milk for good measure.
>>
>> I put the pasties in a hot gas oven, bottom shelf. After about 20
>> minutes I turned them round (the pastry was a nice darkish brown) and
>> turned down the flame to give the contents a chance to cook without
>> burning the pastry. After a further 20 minutes, I had as poke around
>> at the contents of one and found that the filling was basically
>> cooked. I checked the underside of the pasties but discovered that
>> the pastry was still pale.
>>
>> The tops of the pasties couldn't be browned any further without
>> burning them, so I decided to flip the pasties to give the pastry on
>> the underside a chance to cook. It was pale and soft all over, and
>> even sort of translucent in patches where the filling must have been
>> the most moist. It took a further 20 minutes on a low flame to dry
>> this pastry out, and lightly brown it.
>>
>> Pasties are supposed to be darker on the bottom than on the top. The
>> pastry needs to be cooked quite hard, otherwise they aren't suitable
>> for picking up and eating with your hands as the weight of the
>> filling will just drop through the pastry.
>>
>> So, what was I doing wrong? How do I ensure the pastry on the bottom
>> is cooked properly without having to flip the pasties?
>>
>> I've already decided the the filling needed more seasoning. About
>> twice as much pepper (it should really warm your tounge) and possibly
>> a herb, though I want to keep it quite simple. And the buttery taste
>> of the pastry didn't suit the savoury filling, so I'll try making it
>> with trex or some other vegetable fat next time.
>>
>> Any tips appreciated!
>> Gemma.
>
> It's really hard to tell the exact problem without seeing the recipe.
> First, I say that there is nothing particularly good about using
> margarine for baking. Margarine can be upwards of 50% water and the
> soft margarines can have a lot of oil, gums, starches and other
> undesirable ingredients. If you don't like the flavor of butter, then
> I would recommend lard or hydrogenated vegetable fat (Crisco) -- just
> say no to margarine.
>
> I would also recommend that you bake your pies and other pastries on
> the bottom shelf. This gives good bottom heat and tends to crisp the
> bottom. Browning of the pastry depends on a number of factors
> including the pH of the dough and the proteins and sugars. To
> increase browning you can use an egg wash on the top only. Egg wash
> will glue the pastry to the pan if you use it on the bottom.
>
> One way of preventing your pastry from getting soggy is to use a
> baking or pizza stone. You can pre-heat the stone and place the
> pastries directly on the hot stone or put them on parchment and then
> place them on the stone.
>
> You may also want to get an oven thermometer to verify that your oven
> is properly calibrated.
>
> In her book "The Pie and Pastry Bible" Beranbaum recommends a number
> of alternative pastries for empanadas (which I assume is what you are
> trying to make.) I think I would start with a basic pie pastry and
> after mastering that modify it with by substituting some of the flour
> with whole wheat flour or adding some grated cheese. If you have a
> food processor, making pie pastry is quite easy. Let me know if you
> want a basic pastry recipe.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Also the type, color, and thickness of the pan you cooked them on could
have an effect. Those double walled (insulated) cookie sheet are notorious
for not browning the bottom of things. Also the darker the color of the
cookie sheet the faster it cooks. You also mention putting them in a hot
oven...perhaps too hot. I bake pasties at about 375F I think thats close to
150C-200C range, pre-heated of course. Your best bet would be to read over
3 or 4 pastie recipes to check for best cooking temp and ideas for the
vegetarian pastry, here are 2 please excuse the meat.

Some curry powder might work well as a seasoning as well.

MMMMM----- Recipe via Meal-Master (tm) v8.04

Title: New Zealand Pasties
Categories: Polkadot, Faylen, New zealand
Yield: 1 Servings

MMMMM---------------------------ROUNDS--------------------------------
8 oz Flour
2 oz Crisco
2 oz Butter (or Marg)
1 pn Salt
2 tb To 3 tb water (approx)

MMMMM----------------------CORNISH PASTIES---------------------------
4 oz Finely diced RAW potato
4 oz Ground beef
2 oz Chopped onion
2 oz Finely diced RAW carrots
1 oz Green peas (optional)

Sift the flour and salt. Rub in the Crisco and butter until a
sandy texture is reached. Make a hollow in the middle and add
water. Handle as little and as lightly as possible. Wrap in
grease proof paper and refrigerate for 24 hours. Now it's
ready to use for the Cornish Pasties..

Roll out pastry to approx 1/8" thick, cut into 5" diameter
rounds, I cut around a dessert dish, moisten the filling with
a little water and place a generous spoonful in the middle of
each round. Make sure it is in a pile not flattened out.
Moisten the edges of the pastry with beaten egg. Fold in half
and flute the edges. Now stand them up so the fluting is a
cross the top, and push with your fingers to make the join
into a wavey seam. Boy.. thats hard to try and explain
without being able to show you...Mind you that part is only
for looks! Brush the outside of each pastie with beaten egg,
and cook at 275 degrees for 3/4 hr to an hour. When cooked,
pastry should be nicely browned.

Shared by Jo Sheckman

* The Polka Dot Palace BBS 1-201-822-3627. Posted by FAYLEN

MMMMM

CRUST:

4 c. flour
1 1/2 tsp. salt
1 tsp. baking powder
1 3/4 c. shortening
1 egg, beaten
1 tbsp. vinegar
1/2 c. water

FILLING:

6 med. potatoes
1 med. onion
1 lb. ground chuck
3 carrots
1 sm. rutabaga

Chop finely or dice all vegetables. Make crust by mixing dry ingredients.
Add shortening to crumbly mixture; add egg with water and vinegar. Mix
gently. Roll out dough into 4 (8 inch) circles. Place mixed filling
ingredients on half of circle. Add salt and pepper to taste; dot with
butter. Moisten edge of pastry with water and fold over. Seal tightly with
fork or by twist crinkling. Prick top. Bake on cookie sheet at 400 degrees
for 15 minutes. Reduce temperature to 350 degrees and bake 45 minutes
additional time. These freeze well.

Glenwood

--
And the beet goes on! (or under)
-me just a while ago

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message >.. .


> It's really hard to tell the exact problem without seeing the recipe.

The recipe for the pastry, or the pasty? I can copy the pastry recipe
out if it would help. I didn't follow a recipe for the pasty, I just
did what I said in my original post.

> First, I say that there is nothing particularly good about using margarine
> for baking. Margarine can be upwards of 50% water and the soft margarines
> can have a lot of oil, gums, starches and other undesirable ingredients.

Point taken, I just checked and the margarine is only about 60% fat, I
thought it was closer to 80%. I'll get some Trex or Cookeen which are
both 100% hydrogenated vegetable fats (British brands).

> I would also recommend that you bake your pies and other pastries on the
> bottom shelf. This gives good bottom heat and tends to crisp the bottom.

Yup, I was using the bottom shelf.

> Browning of the pastry depends on a number of factors including the pH of
> the dough and the proteins and sugars. To increase browning you can use an
> egg wash on the top only. Egg wash will glue the pastry to the pan if you
> use it on the bottom.

Browning of the top was fine. The pastry on the top cooked
wonderfully, which leads me to suspect it was my cooking technique
which was at fault (i.e. the temperature or type of tray of something)
more than the pastry itself.

> One way of preventing your pastry from getting soggy is to use a baking or
> pizza stone. You can pre-heat the stone and place the pastries directly on
> the hot stone or put them on parchment and then place them on the stone.

I will have to pop into my local cookery shop and see if they have one
(no doubt they'll charge an arm and a leg for it though). This sounds
like it would be an excellent way of concentrating the heat on the
bottom of the pasty.

> You may also want to get an oven thermometer to verify that your oven is
> properly calibrated.

It's not, it's the worst oven in creation. (I rent so there's no
changing it). I manage to make things like cakes and biscuits in it,
just by judging the flame.

> In her book "The Pie and Pastry Bible" Beranbaum recommends a number of
> alternative pastries for empanadas (which I assume is what you are trying to
> make.)

I did a google image search on empenadas, and they do look like the
same thing.

> I think I would start with a basic pie pastry and after mastering
> that modify it with by substituting some of the flour with whole wheat flour
> or adding some grated cheese. If you have a food processor, making pie
> pastry is quite easy. Let me know if you want a basic pastry recipe.

Pie pastry is just shortcrust? I can make that just fine, but I
prefer a flakey pastry for pasties.

Thanks for your help!
Gemma.

"chef" > wrote in message >...
> try pre cooking filling so half done ... nuke it in micro ... let it cool
> off then make as before except use all butter or any veg oil instead of marj
> . cook at higher temp on wire rack or pizza stone until done
> try with mushrooms.
> eggplant
> cubed celeriac
> chile peppers
> peas
> cheese
> merry xmas
> ttfn andy

You can't beat a potato, swede and onion filling, you just can't!

Gemma.

hahabogus > wrote in message >...
> Also the type, color, and thickness of the pan you cooked them on could
> have an effect. Those double walled (insulated) cookie sheet are notorious
> for not browning the bottom of things. Also the darker the color of the
> cookie sheet the faster it cooks.

I was using a very cheap, thin baking sheet. No insulation, or double
lining (but equally nothing much to store/concentrate the heat like a
pizza stone would). It's painted red on the bottom, and I believe was
originally non-stick (which has probably worn off) but has built up a
'patina' of baked on grease (black) for natuaral non-stickiness so I
can't tell. I can't believe I just described that to a newsgroup of
cooking fans/experts, the shame!

> You also mention putting them in a hot
> oven...perhaps too hot. I bake pasties at about 375F I think thats close to
> 150C-200C range, pre-heated of course.

Ah, that's 190C. And cooler than my oven was, I bet. That's closer
to the sort of temperature I'd bake a Victoria sponge. I was under
the (seemingly wrong) impression that pastry needed a hot oven rather
than a moderate one.

> Your best bet would be to read over
> 3 or 4 pastie recipes to check for best cooking temp and ideas for the
> vegetarian pastry, here are 2 please excuse the meat.

Thanks, those are the sort of thing I'm going for. The second one
used a very cool oven. I shall adjust my thinking on this, then.

> Some curry powder might work well as a seasoning as well.

I think I might just sprinkle a little chilli powder in, for the heat.
The pepper wasn't enough to warm my tongue (I'll add more next time,
obviously).

Thanks for your help!
Gemma.

"Gemme" > wrote in message
om...
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
>.. .
>

> Pie pastry is just shortcrust? I can make that just fine, but I
> prefer a flakey pastry for pasties.

My pie pastry is flaky! When you say "flaky pastry" do you mean a
laminated dough like puff pastry?

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message >.. .
> "Gemme" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> >.. .
> >
>
> > Pie pastry is just shortcrust? I can make that just fine, but I
> > prefer a flaky pastry for pasties.
>
> My pie pastry is flaky! When you say "flaky pastry" do you mean a
> laminated dough like puff pastry?

Is it? Sorry, I didn't mean to slight it.

Yes, I made a laminated dough. Here's the recipe I followed:

Flaky pastry (Used for sausage rolls, patties, etc.)
8oz flour
0.5 tsp salt
6oz lard or 5oz vegetable fat [as I said, I used 2oz slightly watery
marg, and 4oz butter]
cold water for mixing

Put the flour and salt in a basin and rub in one-third of the fat
until it has the appearance of fine breadcrumbs. Mix to a stiff dough
with a little cold water, using a knife for mixing. Roll out on a
floured board into an oblong piece. Cut half of the remainder of the
fat into small pieces and scatter them over two-thirds of the paste.
Flour well and fold the paste in three, sealing the edges neatly with
the rolling pin. Leave for 10 minutes. Turn the paste round so that
the sides become the ends and roll out again, then add the rest of the
fat in the same way as before. Flour, fold in three, turn and roll
out again. Leave for 10 minutes. Fold in three once more and, if
possible, put away in a cool place in a covered basin for an hour or
more. [Mine went in the fridge wrapped in cling film (saran-wrap)
overnight] Roll out before using and bake in a hot oven.

Gemma.