Okay, I am not a new bride or a young cook but I am inexperienced in many
ways. Recently, I posted some questions about bread baking and got some
wonderful responses from folks on this group. The thing is, most of y'all
are experienced cooks (which is greatly appreciated) and assume a higher
level of knowledge than us beginners.

Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
beginners.

Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour labeled
just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour. It
is dirt cheap in 30 pound bags. If you go for large quantities, depending
on your environment, store it in air tight plastic containers. It is very
humid where I live and it keeps better this way.

I have bought expensive yeast (3 packages for almost two bucks) and yeast by
the pound at Sam's. I took the Sam's yeast and stored it in an airtight
container in the freezer. It is just as good as the expensive stuff and I
can't imagine having to buy any more in the near future.

Proofing yeast is a good thing. It is a sin and a shame to go through the
motions of making a dough and not having it rise. This happened to me a
couple of times before I got the bulk yeast at Sam's. To proof yeast, add
it to some warm water with a touch of sugar and wait for it to show signs of
life (i.e. bubbles).

I am not a precise cook and like to try different things and various
substitutions. This is great for soups and stews. When making bread, a
sense of adventure is good but must be undertaken with great discipline.
After a complete disaster, I was still convinced I could add steel cut
grains to some breads for texture. It worked but I began adding them 1 tbsp
at a time to find out the threshold.

Good dough is easily recognizable but difficult to explain. The best
example I can come up with is play dough an hour out of the jar. You can
still make things with it but it is a little dryer than fresh play dough. I
have also learned that different breads do have different textures of dough.

My hands love me when I make bread. I coat generously with olive oil before
playing with dough.

Making bread is not nearly the mess and trouble non-bakers think. I will
typically begin a recipe, and then set to rise. If you 'clean as you go',
life is sweet at the end of the day.

I thought that things like a bread stone or tile was just silly but I bought
one at Bed Bath and Beyond on a whim. It is a good thing. So many times,
my bread would burn or become dry on the top before the bottom was done.
The bread stone takes care of this issue.

Various cookbooks talk about the initial 'bloom' of a dough once it is put
in the oven. Using a squirt bottle made my oven lose heat too quickly and
thus the upper element came on and burned the top of my bread. What I do
now is preheat the oven 25 degrees higher than is called for and add a
couple of ice cubes just before putting in the bread. One day I might get a
better oven but this is working for me.

When adding things for flavor, if possible, go for small amounts of strong
flavors. For instance, adding sharp white cheddar or parmesan cheese is
better than adding twice as much mild cheese. I add these extra ingredients
right before baking. I roll the dough out with a rolling pin and then add
these ingredients and then roll into loaves. This works better than adding
too much of a milder ingredient.

I am such an excited new bread baker. I sincerely hope that those with
more experience will correct any of my errors.

j

In article <26Bsb.216$%b2.189@lakeread05>, "Julianne" >
writes:

>Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
>beginners.
>
>Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour labeled
>just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour. It
>is dirt cheap in 30 pound bags. If you go for large quantities, depending
>on your environment, store it in air tight plastic containers. It is very
>humid where I live and it keeps better this way.
>
>I am such an excited new bread baker. I sincerely hope that those with
>more experience will correct any of my errors.

30# sacks of flour most generally do not sell very well and will sit on the
market shelf until well past their prime... stick to ten pound sacks... and do
not stock up until you know with certainty how much flour you will use each
month. Unless you're giving stuff away, selling your good, or live well out
into the win=lderness, many hours away from the nearest trading post, the
typical family will on average not consume 10# of flour worth of baked goods in
a month.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

"PENMART01" > wrote in message
...
> In article <26Bsb.216$%b2.189@lakeread05>, "Julianne"
>
> writes:
>
> >Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
> >beginners.
> >
> >Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour labeled
> >just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.
It
> >is dirt cheap in 30 pound bags. If you go for large quantities,
depending
> >on your environment, store it in air tight plastic containers. It is
very
> >humid where I live and it keeps better this way.
> >
> >I am such an excited new bread baker. I sincerely hope that those with
> >more experience will correct any of my errors.
>
> 30# sacks of flour most generally do not sell very well and will sit on
the
> market shelf until well past their prime... stick to ten pound sacks...
and do
> not stock up until you know with certainty how much flour you will use
each
> month. Unless you're giving stuff away, selling your good, or live well
out
> into the win=lderness, many hours away from the nearest trading post, the
> typical family will on average not consume 10# of flour worth of baked
goods in
> a month.
>

That is a great point. I have already thrown out the original package of my
current flour. Next time, I will see if there is a date. If there is none,
I will buy ten pound sacks. As for me, I am on this self-help learning to
back routine because bread is the only thing that is store bought for the
holidays. I would like to have some really good bread to bring for T-Day
and Xmas. My family is huge - Catholic and Jewish and they have all gone
forth and multiplied In other words, I do not live in a typical family
who consumes 10# of flour each month! I also have a circle of friends and
clients and it is nice to always have some bread on hand to give as a gift.
For those who bake for a smaller circle of eaters, ten pounds would be more
than enough.

Thanks for your feedback.

j
>
> ---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
> ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
> Sheldon
> ````````````
> "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
>

In article <pDBsb.217$%b2.16@lakeread05>, "Julianne" >
writes:

>That is a great point. I have already thrown out the original package of my
>current flour. Next time, I will see if there is a date. If there is none,
>I will buy ten pound sacks

Of recent times the smaller sized flour sacks are marked with a use-by date but
usually not the commercial sized... there will probably be a code but not
easily deciphered. In any event be sure not to contaminate your new flour (or
any ingredients) by dumping it into a container that still contains some of the
old.... not even sugar or salt... all dry ingredients are notorious for
absorbing nefarious odors. Be sure not to buy your baking ingredients at a
market where they're sold in the same aisle with the pet food and pickles,
certainly not anywhere close to the fresh fish section. It's not so bad if you
store your sugar bowl in the cupboard along side the cinnamon shaker but not if
it's anywhere near the garlic salt. A lot of ethnic markets sell wonderful
smoked fish but don't buy any dry ingredients there, not unless you don't mind
your morning bowl of Snap-Crackle-Pop reeking of smoked eel.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

"PENMART01" > wrote in message
...
> In article <pDBsb.217$%b2.16@lakeread05>, "Julianne"
>
> writes:
>
> >That is a great point. I have already thrown out the original package of
my
> >current flour. Next time, I will see if there is a date. If there is
none,
> >I will buy ten pound sacks
>
> Of recent times the smaller sized flour sacks are marked with a use-by
date but
> usually not the commercial sized... there will probably be a code but not
> easily deciphered. In any event be sure not to contaminate your new flour
(or
> any ingredients) by dumping it into a container that still contains some
of the
> old.... not even sugar or salt... all dry ingredients are notorious for
> absorbing nefarious odors. Be sure not to buy your baking ingredients at
a
> market where they're sold in the same aisle with the pet food and pickles,
> certainly not anywhere close to the fresh fish section. It's not so bad
if you
> store your sugar bowl in the cupboard along side the cinnamon shaker but
not if
> it's anywhere near the garlic salt. A lot of ethnic markets sell
wonderful
> smoked fish but don't buy any dry ingredients there, not unless you don't
mind
> your morning bowl of Snap-Crackle-Pop reeking of smoked eel.

You are such a wealth of information. On the one hand, the contamination of
flour by other substances may be rare but for me, if I bought a 30 pound bag
of Fancy Feast Flour unkowningly, it would have been the end of my baking
career. Thanks for the pointers. They make good sense.

j

>
>
> ---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
> ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
> Sheldon
> ````````````
> "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
>

"Julianne" > wrote in message
news:26Bsb.216$%b2.189@lakeread05...
>
> Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
> beginners.
>
> Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour labeled
> just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.
It
> is dirt cheap in 30 pound bags. If you go for large quantities, depending
> on your environment, store it in air tight plastic containers. It is very
> humid where I live and it keeps better this way.

I bake about 6 pounds of dough a week and almost always use bread flour.
Bread that is just fine can be made with AP flour and a lot of people do it,
but I prefer bread flour. Bread flour is not some sort of unnecessary
extravagance, it's just different. Usually larger quantities of bread come
in 25 or 50 pound bags. You are right, about the cost. Buying in quantity is
always cheaper and it's easier to find larger bags of AP flour than bread
flour. I can get a cheap 25 pound bag of AP flour at my local Albertsons,
but no large bags of bread flour.

>
> I have bought expensive yeast (3 packages for almost two bucks) and yeast
by
> the pound at Sam's.

Commercial yeast is for weanies. Make bread with a sourdough starter if you
like bread with some flavor. <g>
Seriously, I wouldn't recommend a beginning bread maker start with
sourdough, but would recommend that you at least experiment with it once you
get some bread time under your belt.


> I am not a precise cook...
> After a complete disaster, I was still convinced I could add steel cut
> grains to some breads for texture. It worked but I began adding them 1
tbsp
> at a time to find out the threshold.

It's probably best for a beginner not to stray too much from a recipe until
they get to the point that they can do it well consistantly. Also weighing
ingredients is a very good idea. Then if you want to add some whole wheat or
spelt four to the loaf you can replace X grams/ounces of white flour with X
grams/ounces of whatever and still be in the same ballpark as the original
recipe. Plus when you use weight rather than volume it will be much easier
to start using baker's percentages for your recipes if you get that deep
into it. That will open up a whole new world of fun. That's when you are in
danger of becoming a psycho like me and start changing things by halves of
percentage points.


> Good dough is easily recognizable but difficult to explain. The best
> example I can come up with is play dough an hour out of the jar. You can
> still make things with it but it is a little dryer than fresh play dough.
I
> have also learned that different breads do have different textures of
dough.

Actually, playdough consistancy would be a rather dry dough, but you are on
the right track.


> My hands love me when I make bread. I coat generously with olive oil
before
> playing with dough.

Then you miss all the fun of scraping the dough off your hands and wrists
after you are done kneading.


> Making bread is not nearly the mess and trouble non-bakers think. I will
> typically begin a recipe, and then set to rise. If you 'clean as you go',
> life is sweet at the end of the day.

No, it doesn't take much time at all total. Just a bunch of small pockets of
time throughout the day.


> I thought that things like a bread stone or tile was just silly but I
bought
> one at Bed Bath and Beyond on a whim. It is a good thing.

Stones are good if used properly.


> What I do
> now is preheat the oven 25 degrees higher than is called for and add a
> couple of ice cubes just before putting in the bread. One day I might get
a
> better oven but this is working for me.

Your oven is probably fine. It is not uncommon for bread recipes to
recommend exactly what you are doing with the temperature.

Some times I wonder how much this steam really does help the bread/crust.
I'm going to play around with no steam one of these days.

>


> I am such an excited new bread baker. I sincerely hope that those with
> more experience will correct any of my errors.
>

If you like the bread screw the people with more experience and enjoy.

There is another group called alt.bread.recipes which is very good for
information on bread. Another excellent group is rec.food.sourdough, but
they'll tear you apart if you mention commercial yeast or haven't thoroughly
read the FAQ before leaving a message there. <g>

Have fun.

-Mike

"Mike Pearce" > wrote in message
newsXBsb.234$0K4.60@lakeread04...
>
> "Julianne" > wrote in message
> news:26Bsb.216$%b2.189@lakeread05...
> >
> > Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
> > beginners.
> >
> > Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour
labeled
> > just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.
> It
> > is dirt cheap in 30 pound bags. If you go for large quantities,
depending
> > on your environment, store it in air tight plastic containers. It is
very
> > humid where I live and it keeps better this way.
>
> I bake about 6 pounds of dough a week and almost always use bread flour.
> Bread that is just fine can be made with AP flour and a lot of people do
it,
> but I prefer bread flour. Bread flour is not some sort of unnecessary
> extravagance, it's just different. Usually larger quantities of bread come
> in 25 or 50 pound bags. You are right, about the cost. Buying in quantity
is
> always cheaper and it's easier to find larger bags of AP flour than bread
> flour. I can get a cheap 25 pound bag of AP flour at my local Albertsons,
> but no large bags of bread flour.
>
> >
> > I have bought expensive yeast (3 packages for almost two bucks) and
yeast
> by
> > the pound at Sam's.
>
> Commercial yeast is for weanies. Make bread with a sourdough starter if
you
> like bread with some flavor. <g>
> Seriously, I wouldn't recommend a beginning bread maker start with
> sourdough, but would recommend that you at least experiment with it once
you
> get some bread time under your belt.

I would definitely like to do this after the New Year. Now, I am looking
for dependable recipes.
>
>
> > I am not a precise cook...
> > After a complete disaster, I was still convinced I could add steel cut
> > grains to some breads for texture. It worked but I began adding them 1
> tbsp
> > at a time to find out the threshold.
>
> It's probably best for a beginner not to stray too much from a recipe
until
> they get to the point that they can do it well consistantly. Also weighing
> ingredients is a very good idea. Then if you want to add some whole wheat
or
> spelt four to the loaf you can replace X grams/ounces of white flour with
X
> grams/ounces of whatever and still be in the same ballpark as the original
> recipe. Plus when you use weight rather than volume it will be much easier
> to start using baker's percentages for your recipes if you get that deep
> into it. That will open up a whole new world of fun. That's when you are
in
> danger of becoming a psycho like me and start changing things by halves of
> percentage points.
>
>
> > Good dough is easily recognizable but difficult to explain. The best
> > example I can come up with is play dough an hour out of the jar. You
can
> > still make things with it but it is a little dryer than fresh play
dough.
> I
> > have also learned that different breads do have different textures of
> dough.
>
> Actually, playdough consistancy would be a rather dry dough, but you are
on
> the right track.

I guess it depends on the playdough

>
> > My hands love me when I make bread. I coat generously with olive oil
> before
> > playing with dough.
>
> Then you miss all the fun of scraping the dough off your hands and wrists
> after you are done kneading.

I haven't missed that. I experienced it by accident

>
>
> > Making bread is not nearly the mess and trouble non-bakers think. I
will
> > typically begin a recipe, and then set to rise. If you 'clean as you
go',
> > life is sweet at the end of the day.
>
> No, it doesn't take much time at all total. Just a bunch of small pockets
of
> time throughout the day.

For me, it is rewarding to do something creative while also doing uncreative
things like laundry and dishes.

>
>
> > I thought that things like a bread stone or tile was just silly but I
> bought
> > one at Bed Bath and Beyond on a whim. It is a good thing.
>
> Stones are good if used properly.

There shouldn't be too many ways to use a stone. Do you know something I
don't know?
>
>
> > What I do
> > now is preheat the oven 25 degrees higher than is called for and add a
> > couple of ice cubes just before putting in the bread. One day I might
get
> a
> > better oven but this is working for me.
>
> Your oven is probably fine. It is not uncommon for bread recipes to
> recommend exactly what you are doing with the temperature.
>
> Some times I wonder how much this steam really does help the bread/crust.
> I'm going to play around with no steam one of these days.

It seems like a frou-frou sort of thing to do but I have baked both ways.
It seems that it really does make a difference.
> >
>
>
> > I am such an excited new bread baker. I sincerely hope that those with
> > more experience will correct any of my errors.
> >
>
> If you like the bread screw the people with more experience and enjoy.

The folks with tons of experience are a wealth of knowledge. However, the
assume a certain basic knowledge. I am just now getting comfy with the
basic knowledge and am looking to move on to greater bread things. They
have helped me to enjoy (especially 'Alzelt') but it is hard for an expert
to write for the very novice. If you don't believe me, try writing a paper
on how to drive a car. It is hard to discount that which you feel is self
evident.

Your post has been most helpfuil. Thanks. I will look up the
alt.bread.recipes group.

I will have fun. I count on you and others here to help me

j
>
> There is another group called alt.bread.recipes which is very good for
> information on bread. Another excellent group is rec.food.sourdough, but
> they'll tear you apart if you mention commercial yeast or haven't
thoroughly
> read the FAQ before leaving a message there. <g>
>
> Have fun.
>
> -Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>

Julianne wrote:

> Okay, I am not a new bride or a young cook but I am inexperienced in many
> ways. Recently, I posted some questions about bread baking and got some
> wonderful responses from folks on this group. The thing is, most of y'all
> are experienced cooks (which is greatly appreciated) and assume a higher
> level of knowledge than us beginners.
>
> Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
> beginners.
>
> Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour labeled
> just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour. It
> is dirt cheap in 30 pound bags. If you go for large quantities, depending
> on your environment, store it in air tight plastic containers. It is very
> humid where I live and it keeps better this way.

Simplicity is a simple answer. The real answer is closer to it depends
upon what you are baking. For many breads, AP flour is fine. If you are
into bagels, a much higher protein level is beneficial. Hence, the need
for items like bread flour or even higher gluten flour.

AP flour lends itself to more open crumb results, a la french bread, but
bread flour gives better results for "white bread". As for 30# sacks. It
also depends, upon how often you bake. Flour that sits around in
canisters is not doing you any good. BTW, throw in a bay leaf or two if
you are concened about bugs.
>
> I have bought expensive yeast (3 packages for almost two bucks) and yeast by
> the pound at Sam's. I took the Sam's yeast and stored it in an airtight
> container in the freezer. It is just as good as the expensive stuff and I
> can't imagine having to buy any more in the near future.

That is something that many home bakers have always done.
>
> Proofing yeast is a good thing. It is a sin and a shame to go through the
> motions of making a dough and not having it rise. This happened to me a
> couple of times before I got the bulk yeast at Sam's. To proof yeast, add
> it to some warm water with a touch of sugar and wait for it to show signs of
> life (i.e. bubbles).

Proofing (active yeast, not rapid rise yeast) is not really necessary.
It was done long ago when consistency was lacking. As long as the
retailer has a good number of inventory turns, proofing is not required.
>
> I am not a precise cook and like to try different things and various
> substitutions. This is great for soups and stews. When making bread, a
> sense of adventure is good but must be undertaken with great discipline.
> After a complete disaster, I was still convinced I could add steel cut
> grains to some breads for texture. It worked but I began adding them 1 tbsp
> at a time to find out the threshold.

Good or aspiring to be good bakers are always tinkering. Just when you
have the bread the way you want, you get a bug up your butt about
something in the taste, color, crust or crumb. Next thing you know, you
are trying to do it over, differently. This always will happen after you
get the bread exactly the way that you want.

It's one of the wonders of home baking. You bake your best bread and one
of the recipients say something like: I wonder how this would taste with
rosemary and/or assagio cheese, carraway seeds, olive oil, etc. Then
you go off on another tangent.
>
> Good dough is easily recognizable but difficult to explain. The best
> example I can come up with is play dough an hour out of the jar. You can
> still make things with it but it is a little dryer than fresh play dough. I
> have also learned that different breads do have different textures of dough.

And some doughs remind me of "quicksilver", the way it flows on the
counter. Wait until you make a dough that is 70-80% hydrated!!
>
> My hands love me when I make bread. I coat generously with olive oil before
> playing with dough.

Never thought of playing with dough in the bedroom!!!
>
> Making bread is not nearly the mess and trouble non-bakers think. I will
> typically begin a recipe, and then set to rise. If you 'clean as you go',
> life is sweet at the end of the day.

And leads to the charge of being anal, by those that cannot abide by
cleaning as you go!! I think you and Kay Hartman would have a hard time
working side by side.
>
> I thought that things like a bread stone or tile was just silly but I bought
> one at Bed Bath and Beyond on a whim. It is a good thing. So many times,
> my bread would burn or become dry on the top before the bottom was done.
> The bread stone takes care of this issue.

Now you know one of the reasons why artisan bakers bake better bread
than many other bakers.
>
> Various cookbooks talk about the initial 'bloom' of a dough once it is put
> in the oven. Using a squirt bottle made my oven lose heat too quickly and
> thus the upper element came on and burned the top of my bread. What I do
> now is preheat the oven 25 degrees higher than is called for and add a
> couple of ice cubes just before putting in the bread. One day I might get a
> better oven but this is working for me.

Right on target.
>
> When adding things for flavor, if possible, go for small amounts of strong
> flavors. For instance, adding sharp white cheddar or parmesan cheese is
> better than adding twice as much mild cheese. I add these extra ingredients
> right before baking. I roll the dough out with a rolling pin and then add
> these ingredients and then roll into loaves. This works better than adding
> too much of a milder ingredient.
>
> I am such an excited new bread baker. I sincerely hope that those with
> more experience will correct any of my errors.
The best thing you have going for you is your enthusiasm. Never lose it
and your breads will do nothing but get better.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

"alzelt" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Julianne wrote:
>
> > Okay, I am not a new bride or a young cook but I am inexperienced in
many
> > ways. Recently, I posted some questions about bread baking and got some
> > wonderful responses from folks on this group. The thing is, most of
y'all
> > are experienced cooks (which is greatly appreciated) and assume a higher
> > level of knowledge than us beginners.
> >
> > Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
> > beginners.
> >
> > Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour
labeled
> > just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.
It
> > is dirt cheap in 30 pound bags. If you go for large quantities,
depending
> > on your environment, store it in air tight plastic containers. It is
very
> > humid where I live and it keeps better this way.
>
> Simplicity is a simple answer. The real answer is closer to it depends
> upon what you are baking. For many breads, AP flour is fine. If you are
> into bagels, a much higher protein level is beneficial. Hence, the need
> for items like bread flour or even higher gluten flour.

Not into bagels yet but am taking your advice into consideration. Are
bagels fun to make?
>
> AP flour lends itself to more open crumb results, a la french bread, but
> bread flour gives better results for "white bread". As for 30# sacks. It
> also depends, upon how often you bake. Flour that sits around in
> canisters is not doing you any good. BTW, throw in a bay leaf or two if
> you are concened about bugs.

I have been baking almost nightly as I am trying to learn this bread baking
thing. As I back off a bit, I will likely throw in a bay leaf or buy
smaller portions.

> >
> > I have bought expensive yeast (3 packages for almost two bucks) and
yeast by
> > the pound at Sam's. I took the Sam's yeast and stored it in an airtight

> > container in the freezer. It is just as good as the expensive stuff and
I
> > can't imagine having to buy any more in the near future.
>
> That is something that many home bakers have always done.

So, uh, does that mean I am a home 'baker'? Damn, I love being called a
'baker'!
> >
> > Proofing yeast is a good thing. It is a sin and a shame to go through
the
> > motions of making a dough and not having it rise. This happened to me a
> > couple of times before I got the bulk yeast at Sam's. To proof yeast,
add
> > it to some warm water with a touch of sugar and wait for it to show
signs of
> > life (i.e. bubbles).
>
> Proofing (active yeast, not rapid rise yeast) is not really necessary.
> It was done long ago when consistency was lacking. As long as the
> retailer has a good number of inventory turns, proofing is not required.

I live in such a hot, humid climate. I may leave town for a week or more
and be unaware that my power was out for 24 plus hours. I have had bad
experiences but I suspect that not everyone lives where summer heat is in
the high 90's with 100 % humidity.
> >
> > I am not a precise cook and like to try different things and various
> > substitutions. This is great for soups and stews. When making bread, a
> > sense of adventure is good but must be undertaken with great discipline.
> > After a complete disaster, I was still convinced I could add steel cut
> > grains to some breads for texture. It worked but I began adding them 1
tbsp
> > at a time to find out the threshold.
>
> Good or aspiring to be good bakers are always tinkering. Just when you
> have the bread the way you want, you get a bug up your butt about
> something in the taste, color, crust or crumb. Next thing you know, you
> are trying to do it over, differently. This always will happen after you
> get the bread exactly the way that you want.
>
> It's one of the wonders of home baking. You bake your best bread and one
> of the recipients say something like: I wonder how this would taste with
> rosemary and/or assagio cheese, carraway seeds, olive oil, etc. Then
> you go off on another tangent.

Ah, give me a recipe that is completely safe assuming I change nothing and I
will bored. Give me a way of cooking that involves me learning different
underlying principles and I will be grateful for life!

> >
> > Good dough is easily recognizable but difficult to explain. The best
> > example I can come up with is play dough an hour out of the jar. You
can
> > still make things with it but it is a little dryer than fresh play
dough. I
> > have also learned that different breads do have different textures of
dough.
>
> And some doughs remind me of "quicksilver", the way it flows on the
> counter. Wait until you make a dough that is 70-80% hydrated!!
> >
> > My hands love me when I make bread. I coat generously with olive oil
before
> > playing with dough.
>
> Never thought of playing with dough in the bedroom!!!

Well that isn't what I meant but I can assure you that creative mind can
certainly come up with uses for dough in intimate moments. Do you know of
any dough that uses warm chocolate syrup?
> >
> > Making bread is not nearly the mess and trouble non-bakers think. I
will
> > typically begin a recipe, and then set to rise. If you 'clean as you
go',
> > life is sweet at the end of the day.
>
> And leads to the charge of being anal, by those that cannot abide by
> cleaning as you go!! I think you and Kay Hartman would have a hard time
> working side by side.

I am so not anal. I am the biggest slob. However, when making bread,
cleaning as you go is very simple. Cleaning after stuff has dried takes
about a week. Clean as you go. Please.
> >
> > I thought that things like a bread stone or tile was just silly but I
bought
> > one at Bed Bath and Beyond on a whim. It is a good thing. So many
times,
> > my bread would burn or become dry on the top before the bottom was done.
> > The bread stone takes care of this issue.
>
> Now you know one of the reasons why artisan bakers bake better bread
> than many other bakers.

You think? I just thought I knew why the bread cooked evenly
> >
> > Various cookbooks talk about the initial 'bloom' of a dough once it is
put
> > in the oven. Using a squirt bottle made my oven lose heat too quickly
and
> > thus the upper element came on and burned the top of my bread. What I
do
> > now is preheat the oven 25 degrees higher than is called for and add a
> > couple of ice cubes just before putting in the bread. One day I might
get a
> > better oven but this is working for me.
>
> Right on target.
>
> > When adding things for flavor, if possible, go for small amounts of
strong
> > flavors. For instance, adding sharp white cheddar or parmesan cheese is
> > better than adding twice as much mild cheese. I add these extra
ingredients
> > right before baking. I roll the dough out with a rolling pin and then
add
> > these ingredients and then roll into loaves. This works better than
adding
> > too much of a milder ingredient.
> >
> > I am such an excited new bread baker. I sincerely hope that those with
> > more experience will correct any of my errors.
> The best thing you have going for you is your enthusiasm. Never lose it
> and your breads will do nothing but get better.
> --
> Alan

Thank you so much for your warm comments and helpful advice. I have made
the rustic potato recipe that you have posted many times. I also bought
some canned 100% pumpkin and substituted for potatoes. That was good.
Meanwhile, my enthusiasm grows by leaps and bounds with your help and the
help of others. I guess the main reason for my original post is that some
of us are such newbies and we all want to be like you! (At least in the
kitchen!)

j
>
> "If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
> avoid the people, you might better stay home."
> --James Michener
>

Since you liked the potato bread recipe, you might be ready to give this
one a try. Instead of baking one large round, make a large loaf. And let
rise on the floured table, covered with a towel. Great for toast.

* Exported from MasterCook *

PAIN METEIL (WHEAT AND RYE BREAD)

Recipe By : The Village Baker, Joe Ortiz
Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00
Categories : Bread French

Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
-------- ------------ --------------------------------
THE SPONGE
1 package active dry yeast -- (2 1/2 teaspoons; ¼
ounce)
1 1/2 cups water
1 cup rye flour
1/2 cup organic -- unbleached white
(or all-purpose) flour
THE DOUGH
1 cup warm water
All of the sponge from the previous step
3 3/4 cups organic -- unbleached white
(or all-purpose) flour
2 1/4 teaspoons salt

TO MAKE THE SPONGE,proof the yeast in ½ cup of warm water. When it is
creamy, add it to a medium-sized bowl along with the rest of the water,
which
should be at room temperature. Slowly add the combined flours by handfuls,
while stirring the mixture with a wooden spoon. Set the sponge aside,
covering
the bowl with a dish towel, for between 15 and 24 hours.

TO MAKE THE DOUGH, mix the 1 cup warm tap water into the sponge. Start
adding 2¾ cups of flour, handful by handful, stirring the mixture, gently at
first, and then vigorously with a wooden spoon. Beat in each addition of
flour
with 50 strokes of the spoon. This will take about 15 minutes. Sprinkle
the salt
over the dough and then knead the dough on a table for another 2 or 3
minutes
while adding the remaining cup of flour. The dough should be of medium
consistency but
still feel sticky. Resist the temptation to add more flour.

Let the dough rise, covered, for 2 hours. When it has doubled in bulk,
flatten it out
and shape into a round loaf.

Set the loaf aside on a parchment-lined baking sheet, covered, to rise for
about 11/2 hours. The loaf is ready to be baked when the indentation
made by a
finger does not bounce back.

With an ice pick, puncture the loaf through the top crust about 1-inch
deep, at
least 8 or 10 times. This will serve the same purpose as slashing the
loaf, except
that the crust will not tear and mar the stencil design. Place the
stencil on top
of the loaf. Put a few tablespoons of white flour in a strainer with
fine mesh and
use it to dust the top of the loaf lightly. Remove the stencil.

Place the loaf in a preheated, 425F oven for between 35 and 45 minutes.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

NOTES : During the time when bread was baked in communal ovens,
individual families
mixed, shaped, and set to rise their own breads. When the loaves were
ready to
bake, each French housewife would marked her own loaves to distinguish them
from her neighbors’. In some regions, the family’s signature or
symbol—across,
a circle, an initial—was cut 3n each loaf. Elsewhere a stencil was made
of the
family symbol, the loaf dusted with flour, and the stencil removed. In
other villages decorative patches of dough were placed on the loaves.
Pain méteil was, and in some regions still is, commonly made with the
dusted stencil design on top. Méteil is French for “maslin,” a British
dialect
word for a mixture of wheat and rye, either as grain or flour.
MAKES ONE 21/2-POUND LOAF

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

Ah, keeping me out of trouble over the weekend, I see.

I have read a couple of recipes using a sponge. Apparently, it is supposed
to make for a truer bread flavor. I am glad I have a recipe that someone
else has actually tried. This makes it easier for me to know if I did
something wrong (or great) or if the recipe was flawed (or superior to all
others).

Due to a day trip out of town today, it is unlikely I will be able to make
this prior to the weekend. Tell me this, oh Great One, how critical is the
timing for the sponge? My first thought was to throw one together now for
use this evening. That would have meant that I made it at five a.m. and
began baking around six this evening - approx 13 hours. I am not willing to
take a chance at this time but am curious if 13 or so hours would have made
any big difference rather than 15 to 24.

j

"alzelt" > wrote in message
...
> Since you liked the potato bread recipe, you might be ready to give this
> one a try. Instead of baking one large round, make a large loaf. And let
> rise on the floured table, covered with a towel. Great for toast.
>
> * Exported from MasterCook *
>
> PAIN METEIL (WHEAT AND RYE BREAD)
>
> Recipe By : The Village Baker, Joe Ortiz
> Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00
> Categories : Bread French
>
> Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method
> -------- ------------ --------------------------------
> THE SPONGE
> 1 package active dry yeast -- (2 1/2 teaspoons; ¼
> ounce)
> 1 1/2 cups water
> 1 cup rye flour
> 1/2 cup organic -- unbleached white
> (or all-purpose) flour
> THE DOUGH
> 1 cup warm water
> All of the sponge from the previous step
> 3 3/4 cups organic -- unbleached white
> (or all-purpose) flour
> 2 1/4 teaspoons salt
>
> TO MAKE THE SPONGE,proof the yeast in ½ cup of warm water. When it is
> creamy, add it to a medium-sized bowl along with the rest of the water,
> which
> should be at room temperature. Slowly add the combined flours by handfuls,
> while stirring the mixture with a wooden spoon. Set the sponge aside,
> covering
> the bowl with a dish towel, for between 15 and 24 hours.
>
> TO MAKE THE DOUGH, mix the 1 cup warm tap water into the sponge. Start
> adding 2¾ cups of flour, handful by handful, stirring the mixture, gently
at
> first, and then vigorously with a wooden spoon. Beat in each addition of
> flour
> with 50 strokes of the spoon. This will take about 15 minutes. Sprinkle
> the salt
> over the dough and then knead the dough on a table for another 2 or 3
> minutes
> while adding the remaining cup of flour. The dough should be of medium
> consistency but
> still feel sticky. Resist the temptation to add more flour.
>
> Let the dough rise, covered, for 2 hours. When it has doubled in bulk,
> flatten it out
> and shape into a round loaf.
>
> Set the loaf aside on a parchment-lined baking sheet, covered, to rise for
> about 11/2 hours. The loaf is ready to be baked when the indentation
> made by a
> finger does not bounce back.
>
> With an ice pick, puncture the loaf through the top crust about 1-inch
> deep, at
> least 8 or 10 times. This will serve the same purpose as slashing the
> loaf, except
> that the crust will not tear and mar the stencil design. Place the
> stencil on top
> of the loaf. Put a few tablespoons of white flour in a strainer with
> fine mesh and
> use it to dust the top of the loaf lightly. Remove the stencil.
>
> Place the loaf in a preheated, 425F oven for between 35 and 45 minutes.
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> NOTES : During the time when bread was baked in communal ovens,
> individual families
> mixed, shaped, and set to rise their own breads. When the loaves were
> ready to
> bake, each French housewife would marked her own loaves to distinguish
them
> from her neighbors’. In some regions, the family’s signature or
> symbol—across,
> a circle, an initial—was cut 3n each loaf. Elsewhere a stencil was made
> of the
> family symbol, the loaf dusted with flour, and the stencil removed. In
> other villages decorative patches of dough were placed on the loaves.
> Pain méteil was, and in some regions still is, commonly made with the
> dusted stencil design on top. Méteil is French for “maslin,” a British
> dialect
> word for a mixture of wheat and rye, either as grain or flour.
> MAKES ONE 21/2-POUND LOAF
>
> --
> Alan
>
> "If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
> avoid the people, you might better stay home."
> --James Michener
>

Julianne wrote:

> Ah, keeping me out of trouble over the weekend, I see.
>
> I have read a couple of recipes using a sponge. Apparently, it is supposed
> to make for a truer bread flavor. I am glad I have a recipe that someone
> else has actually tried. This makes it easier for me to know if I did
> something wrong (or great) or if the recipe was flawed (or superior to all
> others).
>
> Due to a day trip out of town today, it is unlikely I will be able to make
> this prior to the weekend. Tell me this, oh Great One, how critical is the
> timing for the sponge? My first thought was to throw one together now for
> use this evening. That would have meant that I made it at five a.m. and
> began baking around six this evening - approx 13 hours. I am not willing to
> take a chance at this time but am curious if 13 or so hours would have made
> any big difference rather than 15 to 24.
>
>
What the instructions are really telling you to do is to ensure that it
has had a good chance to really swell up and develop "character". Under
normal circumstances that means time. I usually opt for between 15 and
24 hours. I doubt 13 hours would hurt the recipe. The only point to
consider since we are starting to become winterbound is the temperature.
If you cannot maintain at least 70F ambient temp, it will take longer to
rise. In that case, put it in the oven, that has been just heated to
about 85F and turn it off. Put inside and let the door remain closed for
the whole time you want.

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

"Julianne" > wrote in message
news:26Bsb.216$%b2.189@lakeread05...
snip>
> Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour labeled
> just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.
It
> is dirt cheap in 30 pound bags.

Not true. A good baker uses either all purpose or bread flour, depending
upon the recipe and what the baker is trying to achieve. Bread flour and
all purpose flour sell for the same price here.

> I have bought expensive yeast (3 packages for almost two bucks) and yeast
by
> the pound at Sam's. I took the Sam's yeast and stored it in an airtight
> container in the freezer. It is just as good as the expensive stuff and I
> can't imagine having to buy any more in the near future.

The stuff in the 3-package unit is the same yeast as the stuff you buy at
Sam's. The difference is that the 3 package stuff sits around on the shelf
longer and always seems to wear out in the package faster. The large
packages at Sam's are a good deal. Keep it in a well-sealed container in
the refrigerator or freezer and it should last at least a year.
>
> Proofing yeast is a good thing. It is a sin and a shame to go through the
> motions of making a dough and not having it rise. This happened to me a
> couple of times before I got the bulk yeast at Sam's. To proof yeast, add
> it to some warm water with a touch of sugar and wait for it to show signs
of
> life (i.e. bubbles).
>
Now that you have gotten rid of the stuff in the little packages, I would
see no reason for you to continue this outdated practice of proving yeast.

snip

> Good dough is easily recognizable but difficult to explain. The best
> example I can come up with is play dough an hour out of the jar. You can
> still make things with it but it is a little dryer than fresh play dough.
I
> have also learned that different breads do have different textures of
dough.

I would say that fresh play doh one hour out of the jar is far, far too dry
to represent a decent bread dough. Try making your bread with less flour
and I bet you will prefer the results.
snip

> I thought that things like a bread stone or tile was just silly but I
bought
> one at Bed Bath and Beyond on a whim. It is a good thing. So many times,
> my bread would burn or become dry on the top before the bottom was done.
> The bread stone takes care of this issue.

Are you using a rack that is positioned in the middle or above the middle in
the oven? This will cause your bread to burn on the top and not be done on
the bottom. If you are using a stone, it should be positioned on the bottom
rack and this no doubt helps keep your bread from burning on the top.
>
> Various cookbooks talk about the initial 'bloom' of a dough once it is put
> in the oven. Using a squirt bottle made my oven lose heat too quickly and
> thus the upper element came on and burned the top of my bread. What I do
> now is preheat the oven 25 degrees higher than is called for and add a
> couple of ice cubes just before putting in the bread. One day I might get
a
> better oven but this is working for me.

Be careful of warping your oven floor by throwing ice cubes on it. If you
must use ice cubes, put them in a pan. (really, it doesn't make sense to
put something frozen in the oven to make steam, you have such a long way to
go before it becomes warm/hot water. Why don't you pour some boiling water
into a pan instead?) However, if you place the pan directly beneath the
baking stone, you will create a cold spot on the stone that will produce
noticable underbaked areas on the bottom of the bread. Try misting the
loaves with the sprayer before you put them in the oven.
snip

> j
Janet

What I love about bread baking is that not so good efforts are still
likely to come out wonderful. Granted there can be disasters like using
dead yeast or burning it or not getting it baked through, but for the
most part, you might not be perfect at measuring or kneading, and home
made bread is still wonderful.

I learned to bake bread from The Tassajara Bread Book years ago. I
can't think of a time I didn't enjoy it. I'm probably still a beginner
since I don't have a lot of control over my results, but I've never
known anyone to turn down my home made bread.

Thanks for the suggestion about the stone. I'll have to check that out.

--Lia

Julianne wrote:
>
> Okay, I am not a new bride or a young cook but I am inexperienced in many
> ways. Recently, I posted some questions about bread baking and got some
> wonderful responses from folks on this group. The thing is, most of y'all
> are experienced cooks (which is greatly appreciated) and assume a higher
> level of knowledge than us beginners.
>
> Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
> beginners.
>
> Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour labeled
> just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.

Where did this come from? Bread flour is always preferable
to all-purpose. Higher gluten content is why. Give better
texture. All the "better bakers" I know use bread flour.

This is not to say you can't make perfectly good bread with
all-purpose but the bread flour really doesn't cost more and
you can get it in the supermarket now, right along side the
all-purpose. I remember the days when I had to go to special
stores or mail-order it. No reason not to use the good stuff
these days.

Kate

--
Kate Connally
“If I were as old as I feel, I’d be dead already.”
Goldfish: “The wholesome snack that smiles back,
Until you bite their heads off.”
What if the hokey pokey really *is* what it's all about?

"Kate Connally" > wrote in message
...
> Julianne wrote:
> >
> > Okay, I am not a new bride or a young cook but I am inexperienced in
many
> > ways. Recently, I posted some questions about bread baking and got some
> > wonderful responses from folks on this group. The thing is, most of
y'all
> > are experienced cooks (which is greatly appreciated) and assume a higher
> > level of knowledge than us beginners.
> >
> > Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
> > beginners.
> >
> > Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour
labeled
> > just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.
>
> Where did this come from? Bread flour is always preferable
> to all-purpose. Higher gluten content is why. Give better
> texture. All the "better bakers" I know use bread flour.
>
> This is not to say you can't make perfectly good bread with
> all-purpose but the bread flour really doesn't cost more and
> you can get it in the supermarket now, right along side the
> all-purpose. I remember the days when I had to go to special
> stores or mail-order it. No reason not to use the good stuff
> these days.
>
> Kate

Bread flour is not automatically better for all breads. The higher gluten is
an advantage for some kinds of bread but not for others. In fact, I recall
reading that in France bakers use an all-purpose flour, gluten-wise, for
baguettes. However you do not want to use just any all purpose flour because
the gluten content can vary from 8% which is too low for most breads to 12%
which is fine. Check the nutrition label which usually lists grams of
protein per 100g of flour. That number is the gluten %.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken wrote:

> Bread flour is not automatically better for all breads. The higher gluten is
> an advantage for some kinds of bread but not for others. In fact, I recall
> reading that in France bakers use an all-purpose flour, gluten-wise, for
> baguettes. However you do not want to use just any all purpose flour because
> the gluten content can vary from 8% which is too low for most breads to 12%
> which is fine. Check the nutrition label which usually lists grams of
> protein per 100g of flour. That number is the gluten %.

Could you post a quick, off the top of your head, list of which breads
are best made with bread flour and which are better with all purpose?
I'm guessing that bagels and pizza dough like the high gluten and
croissants and muffins, being more cake-like, prefer the all-purpose.

--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:eUPsb.138441$mZ5.953093@attbi_s54...
> Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> > Bread flour is not automatically better for all breads. The higher
gluten is
> > an advantage for some kinds of bread but not for others. In fact, I
recall
> > reading that in France bakers use an all-purpose flour, gluten-wise, for
> > baguettes. However you do not want to use just any all purpose flour
because
> > the gluten content can vary from 8% which is too low for most breads to
12%
> > which is fine. Check the nutrition label which usually lists grams of
> > protein per 100g of flour. That number is the gluten %.
>
> Could you post a quick, off the top of your head, list of which breads
> are best made with bread flour and which are better with all purpose?
> I'm guessing that bagels and pizza dough like the high gluten and
> croissants and muffins, being more cake-like, prefer the all-purpose.
>
> --Lia
>

I would if I thought I remembered correctly! I have seen recipes that
specify low-gluten flour for pizza dough, particularly when you want to roll
it really thin. I use King Arthurs all-purpose regularly for French bread
and it works fine. Note that you can buy vital wheat gluten and add it to
flour as needed.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> "Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
> news:eUPsb.138441$mZ5.953093@attbi_s54...
> > Peter Aitken wrote:
> >
> > > Bread flour is not automatically better for all breads. The higher
> gluten is
> > > an advantage for some kinds of bread but not for others. In fact, I
> recall
> > > reading that in France bakers use an all-purpose flour, gluten-wise, for
> > > baguettes. However you do not want to use just any all purpose flour
> because
> > > the gluten content can vary from 8% which is too low for most breads to
> 12%
> > > which is fine. Check the nutrition label which usually lists grams of
> > > protein per 100g of flour. That number is the gluten %.
> >
> > Could you post a quick, off the top of your head, list of which breads
> > are best made with bread flour and which are better with all purpose?
> > I'm guessing that bagels and pizza dough like the high gluten and
> > croissants and muffins, being more cake-like, prefer the all-purpose.
> >
> > --Lia
> >
>
> I would if I thought I remembered correctly! I have seen recipes that
> specify low-gluten flour for pizza dough, particularly when you want to roll
> it really thin. I use King Arthurs all-purpose regularly for French bread
> and it works fine. Note that you can buy vital wheat gluten and add it to
> flour as needed.

I assumed we were talking yeast breads here and as
far as I'm concerned *all* yeast breads are better
with higher gluten content that all-purpose flour
has. I like my breads crusty and chewy (but not
like those horrid "rustic" breads where the inside
is like "Swiss rubber" - tough and chewy with lots of
gigantic holes).

Naturally one would not use bread flour for quick
breads.

Kate

--
Kate Connally
“If I were as old as I feel, I’d be dead already.”
Goldfish: “The wholesome snack that smiles back,
Until you bite their heads off.”
What if the hokey pokey really *is* what it's all about?

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
news:eUPsb.138441$mZ5.953093@attbi_s54...
>
> Could you post a quick, off the top of your head, list of which breads
> are best made with bread flour and which are better with all purpose?
> I'm guessing that bagels and pizza dough like the high gluten and
> croissants and muffins, being more cake-like, prefer the all-purpose.
>
> --Lia
>
Muffins and croissants are broadly called 'bread' . They do not however fit
into the context of the original posting which was about 'yeasted breads.'
Muffins and croissants are unlike each other in their preparation and what
makes them rise and are completely different in those aspects from yeasted
breads.

I can't recall seeing a bread recipe where the recipe writer did not
indicate what flour--all purpose or bread flour--should be used in the
recipe preparation. This is an important point as bread flour will absorb
far more liquid than all purpose flour. . .a lot more water, not just a
tablespoon, it could be ounces. Several of us have performed this
experiment at home mixing a given weight of water and a given weight of
flour and tried out many different flours. The resulting mixtures varied
from a soup-like consistency to something resembling cement mix. It isn't
that the exchange of flour can't be done, you need to be aware of what you
are doing. Not only will the exchange change the fluidity of the dough, it
will alter the resulting bread.

There have been a number of bread books published in recent years that have
excellent, detailed information. If you are an advanced bread baker, I
would recommend The Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart. If you are
new to the whole baking scene in general, King Arthur Flour has just
published an excellent tell-all book that covers all aspects of baking
called "The Baker's Companion." This book is an excellent starting place to
learn about cakes, cookies, yeasted breads, quick breads, croissants,
muffins and more.
Janet

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> Muffins and croissants are broadly called 'bread' . They do not however
fit
> into the context of the original posting which was about 'yeasted breads.'
> Muffins and croissants are unlike each other in their preparation and what
> makes them rise and are completely different in those aspects from yeasted
> breads.
>

A question and a clarification. First in the above paragraph you stated
that croissants are 'broadly' called bread and make use of a different
method of rising. Although I am not up to croissants just yet, I will truly
feel accomplished when I can make a real croissant.

I stated that 'all' the best recipes (or bakers, etc.) specified all purpose
flour. As always, I am jumping ahead to my next thought while my fingers
catch up. More specifically, I should have noted that the recipes that I
have come across in my limited experience call for all purpose flour. I am
hardly an expert! Rather, I was posting my observations as a beginner
baker because so many of you are so very experienced and have long moved
past the very basics of a skill. I was sharing my findings thus far both so
that the other new bakers or those interested might find something they
could relate to and also because I trust the more experienced bakers to
correct me in any early misconceptions that might lead me astray to the
point that I become discouraged.

Early on, I posted a question related to bread baking. King Authur's site
was one recommendation I was given. It is bookmarked in my favorites file!
It is wonderful. I especially like the 'recipes' that include pictures and
demonstrations for us beginners.

My dream vacation is to go to a cooking retreat, preferably in Sonoma, where
I can learn new skills and enjoy myself. In my day job, I am a nurse. It
is a blend of art and science and little intuition. I would hate to come
home and nurse but cooking, especially baking, also combines art, science
and intuition and I like that!

j

Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> "Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
> news:eUPsb.138441$mZ5.953093@attbi_s54...
> >
> > Could you post a quick, off the top of your head, list of which breads
> > are best made with bread flour and which are better with all purpose?
> > I'm guessing that bagels and pizza dough like the high gluten and
> > croissants and muffins, being more cake-like, prefer the all-purpose.
> >
> > --Lia
> >
> Muffins and croissants are broadly called 'bread' . They do not however fit
> into the context of the original posting which was about 'yeasted breads.'
> Muffins and croissants are unlike each other in their preparation and what
> makes them rise and are completely different in those aspects from yeasted
> breads.
>
> I can't recall seeing a bread recipe where the recipe writer did not
> indicate what flour--all purpose or bread flour--should be used in the
> recipe preparation. This is an important point as bread flour will absorb
> far more liquid than all purpose flour. . .a lot more water, not just a
> tablespoon, it could be ounces. Several of us have performed this
> experiment at home mixing a given weight of water and a given weight of
> flour and tried out many different flours. The resulting mixtures varied
> from a soup-like consistency to something resembling cement mix. It isn't
> that the exchange of flour can't be done, you need to be aware of what you
> are doing. Not only will the exchange change the fluidity of the dough, it
> will alter the resulting bread.

Odd when I first discovered "bread flour" and started using
it I did not notice any difference in the relative ratios
of flour to liquid in my bread baking. Although I must say
that it has always been my practice, with a few special case
exceptions to add only part of the flour in a recipe leaving
back at least one cup and then working in as much of that
one last cup as the dough will take. (I learned early on that
if you slavishly follow a recipe and put all the flour called
for into the liquid it almost always makes the dough too stiff
and it's then really difficult to try to work in more liquid
to get the right consistency.) But the relative amounts are
still pretty much the same as far as I can tell, just judging
by eye. Never done any scientific experiments.

Kate

--
Kate Connally
“If I were as old as I feel, I’d be dead already.”
Goldfish: “The wholesome snack that smiles back,
Until you bite their heads off.”
What if the hokey pokey really *is* what it's all about?

Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
> Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> > Bread flour is not automatically better for all breads. The higher gluten is
> > an advantage for some kinds of bread but not for others. In fact, I recall
> > reading that in France bakers use an all-purpose flour, gluten-wise, for
> > baguettes. However you do not want to use just any all purpose flour because
> > the gluten content can vary from 8% which is too low for most breads to 12%
> > which is fine. Check the nutrition label which usually lists grams of
> > protein per 100g of flour. That number is the gluten %.
>
> Could you post a quick, off the top of your head, list of which breads
> are best made with bread flour and which are better with all purpose?
> I'm guessing that bagels and pizza dough like the high gluten and
> croissants and muffins, being more cake-like, prefer the all-purpose.

My remarks were based on the assumption that we were talking
yeast bread, not quick breads, etc.

You would never want to use bread flour for muffins,
banana bread, and that sort of thing. Actually I *would*
use bread flour for croissants.

Kate

--
Kate Connally
“If I were as old as I feel, I’d be dead already.”
Goldfish: “The wholesome snack that smiles back,
Until you bite their heads off.”
What if the hokey pokey really *is* what it's all about?

>> Peter Aitken wrote:
>>
>> > Bread flour is not automatically better for all breads. The higher gluten is
>> > an advantage for some kinds of bread but not for others. In fact, I recall
>> > reading that in France bakers use an all-purpose flour, gluten-wise, for
>> > baguettes. However you do not want to use just any all purpose flour because
>> > the gluten content can vary from 8% which is too low for most breads to 12%
>> > which is fine. Check the nutrition label which usually lists grams of
>> > protein per 100g of flour. That number is the gluten %.

Dear Julia rather famously did a *lot* of experimentation with US
flours in an attempt to reproduce the common "French bread" of France.
Her recipe(s) in 'Mastering, II' uses all-purpose flour which she says
has a little *more* gluten than French flour. ('Bread Flour' has even
more.)

Peter Aitken wrote:

> "Kate Connally" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Julianne wrote:
>>
>>>Okay, I am not a new bride or a young cook but I am inexperienced in
>
> many
>
>>>ways. Recently, I posted some questions about bread baking and got some
>>>wonderful responses from folks on this group. The thing is, most of
>
> y'all
>
>>>are experienced cooks (which is greatly appreciated) and assume a higher
>>>level of knowledge than us beginners.
>>>
>>>Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
>>>beginners.
>>>
>>>Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour
>
> labeled
>
>>>just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.
>>
>>Where did this come from? Bread flour is always preferable
>>to all-purpose. Higher gluten content is why. Give better
>>texture. All the "better bakers" I know use bread flour.
>>
>>This is not to say you can't make perfectly good bread with
>>all-purpose but the bread flour really doesn't cost more and
>>you can get it in the supermarket now, right along side the
>>all-purpose. I remember the days when I had to go to special
>>stores or mail-order it. No reason not to use the good stuff
>>these days.
>>
>>Kate
>
>
> Bread flour is not automatically better for all breads. The higher gluten is
> an advantage for some kinds of bread but not for others. In fact, I recall
> reading that in France bakers use an all-purpose flour, gluten-wise, for
> baguettes. However you do not want to use just any all purpose flour because
> the gluten content can vary from 8% which is too low for most breads to 12%
> which is fine. Check the nutrition label which usually lists grams of
> protein per 100g of flour. That number is the gluten %.
>
>
Peter,

From King Arthur: "Q: How can I determine the protein level of flour
from the bag label? .
A: You can't. Nutrition labeling requirements aren't designed to reveal
the precise percentage of protein in flour. They're designed to give
approximate amounts, rounded to the nearest gram per 1/4 cup. For
example, a flour with 2.7 grams of protein per 1/4 cup and a flour with
3.3 grams of protein per 1/4 cup would both bear nutrition labels
reading 3 grams per 1/4 cup. However, the exact protein level of the
second flour is nearly 20 percent higher than the first. To learn the
exact protein level to the nearest tenth of a percent, you must contact
the flour company and ask. See King Arthur Flour's Specifications"
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

Kate Connally wrote:

> Julianne wrote:
>
>>Okay, I am not a new bride or a young cook but I am inexperienced in many
>>ways. Recently, I posted some questions about bread baking and got some
>>wonderful responses from folks on this group. The thing is, most of y'all
>>are experienced cooks (which is greatly appreciated) and assume a higher
>>level of knowledge than us beginners.
>>
>>Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
>>beginners.
>>
>>Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour labeled
>>just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.
>
>
> Where did this come from? Bread flour is always preferable
> to all-purpose. Higher gluten content is why. Give better
> texture. All the "better bakers" I know use bread flour.

And where, pray tell, did this little ditty come from? Artisan bread
makers do not normally use bread flour, which is much higher in
protein/gluten than AP. I suppose if you are making wonder bread or some
other basic white bread, that is fine, as well as when making bagels.

But for the bread that "better bakers" bake, I would offer up that you
are off the mark. If you are interested in a smaller, tighter crumb,
bread flour is best. If you want big holes, with open crumb, then AP is
much preferred.
>
> This is not to say you can't make perfectly good bread with
> all-purpose but the bread flour really doesn't cost more and
> you can get it in the supermarket now, right along side the
> all-purpose. I remember the days when I had to go to special
> stores or mail-order it. No reason not to use the good stuff
> these days.

And why do you assume that bread flour is the good stuff, as opposed to
AP? Come on over to alt.bread.recipes. We often discuss AP vs. bread
flour. Heated discussion at times, yet there a lot of facts behind the
rhetoric.

This comes from King Arthur: " A few breads, like bagels, rye bread, or
multi-grain loaves, are best made with "Special(bred flour)." A few,
like baguettes, Italian bread, or soft rolls, are best made with
Unbleached All-Purpose. But the vast majority of bread -- sandwich
bread, dinner rolls, pizza crust, hamburger buns, bread sticks -- could
be made with either flour, depending on the texture you desire. Many
bakers also believe there is a difference in flavor between the winter
wheat in Unbleached All-Purpose and the spring wheat in Special, some
preferring one over the other. The good news is that you, as the baker,
can achieve the result you want by knowing that you have two great
choices of flour."


So, the type of flour is really dependent upon the bread you choose to bake.

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

alzelt wrote:
>
> Kate Connally wrote:
>
> > Julianne wrote:
> >
> >>Okay, I am not a new bride or a young cook but I am inexperienced in many
> >>ways. Recently, I posted some questions about bread baking and got some
> >>wonderful responses from folks on this group. The thing is, most of y'all
> >>are experienced cooks (which is greatly appreciated) and assume a higher
> >>level of knowledge than us beginners.
> >>
> >>Here is what I have learned about making bread being shared for other
> >>beginners.
> >>
> >>Simplicity in ingredients is better. It is tempting to buy flour labeled
> >>just for bread, etc. but the good bakers always use 'all-purpose' flour.
> >
> >
> > Where did this come from? Bread flour is always preferable
> > to all-purpose. Higher gluten content is why. Give better
> > texture. All the "better bakers" I know use bread flour.
>
> And where, pray tell, did this little ditty come from? Artisan bread
> makers do not normally use bread flour, which is much higher in
> protein/gluten than AP. I suppose if you are making wonder bread or some
> other basic white bread, that is fine, as well as when making bagels.
>
> But for the bread that "better bakers" bake, I would offer up that you
> are off the mark. If you are interested in a smaller, tighter crumb,
> bread flour is best. If you want big holes, with open crumb, then AP is
> much preferred.

Well, that's just backward from my experience. AP flour
produces a finer crumb and crumblier texture. Bread flour
produces a chewier texture and bigger holes - although not
*that* big, unless you use *really* high gluten flour to
get the gigantic holes found it those "rustic" breads that
so many of the "artisan" bakeries are into producing these
days. (Personally, I don't care for them.)

> > This is not to say you can't make perfectly good bread with
> > all-purpose but the bread flour really doesn't cost more and
> > you can get it in the supermarket now, right along side the
> > all-purpose. I remember the days when I had to go to special
> > stores or mail-order it. No reason not to use the good stuff
> > these days.
>
> And why do you assume that bread flour is the good stuff, as opposed to
> AP? Come on over to alt.bread.recipes. We often discuss AP vs. bread
> flour. Heated discussion at times, yet there a lot of facts behind the
> rhetoric.

I've been baking bread of all sorts for almost 40 years
and I'm speaking from my experience and the experience
of other people I know who bake bread frequently. And thanks
for the invitations but I'm not really interested in the
rhetoric. I make great bread and really don't have the
time or interest in joining another newsgroup. I'm sure
it's a great group.

> This comes from King Arthur: " A few breads, like bagels, rye bread, or
> multi-grain loaves, are best made with "Special(bred flour)." A few,
> like baguettes, Italian bread, or soft rolls, are best made with
> Unbleached All-Purpose. But the vast majority of bread -- sandwich
> bread, dinner rolls, pizza crust, hamburger buns, bread sticks -- could
> be made with either flour, depending on the texture you desire. Many
> bakers also believe there is a difference in flavor between the winter
> wheat in Unbleached All-Purpose and the spring wheat in Special, some
> preferring one over the other. The good news is that you, as the baker,
> can achieve the result you want by knowing that you have two great
> choices of flour."

All I know is I started out using AP flour, because in
my world that was the *only* flour. I never knew back
then that there was anything else except cake flour but
I never used that either, in our family we used AP flour
for our cakes and they were great! To this day I still
use AP flour for cakes, except for angel food cake.
Anyway, when I found out about the existence of high gluten
flour and started using it I noticed a definite improvement
in the texture of my breads. They were more like good
bakery breads. And even more recently I've perfected my
pizza dough by adding some semolina to the dough for an
even chewier, crustier crust. I do sometimes use AP flour
in my crescent rolls which are a very soft roll and the
dough is very wet and not kneaded, but I also use bread
flour for them sometimes. Since they are not really kneaded
the texture doesn't really differ that much. But I would
never used AP flour for regular bread, unless I were out of
bread flour and didn't have the energy to go to the store,
because I like the texture better with the bread flour.

Kate

--
Kate Connally
“If I were as old as I feel, I’d be dead already.”
Goldfish: “The wholesome snack that smiles back,
Until you bite their heads off.”
What if the hokey pokey really *is* what it's all about?