I have three questions about baking bread and hope some of you experts
can give me some pointers.

I used my machine to mix the ingredients and let it rise twice. At
the beginning of the third rise, I removed the dough from the pan,
streached it into a longish tube, divided it with a knife, and put the
two halves into thin metal baking pans with an anti-stick coating like
silverstone.

Q1: My wife also has glass baking pans. Which style is better for
baking and why?

I put the pans in the oven set to 105 and covered them with a damp
dish towel (because someone once suggested that I do so). About an
hour later, some dough stuck to the towel when I removed it.

Q2: Is the damp towel a good idea and if so, why?

I took the pans out of the oven for about 10 minutes while it heated
up to 350. (I switched to the convection setting which turns on the
fan.) Even though the pans were warm, the dough fell, which is not
what I wanted.

Q3: Can I leave the pans in the oven while it heats up to baking
temperature?

Thanks!
Bob

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:03:42 -0500, Bob Simon >
wrote:

>I have three questions about baking bread and hope some of you experts
>can give me some pointers.
>
>I used my machine to mix the ingredients and let it rise twice. At
>the beginning of the third rise, I removed the dough from the pan,
>streached it into a longish tube, divided it with a knife, and put the
>two halves into thin metal baking pans with an anti-stick coating like
>silverstone.
>
>Q1: My wife also has glass baking pans. Which style is better for
>baking and why?

I use either sort. The glass ones, by their nature, are a bit more
delicate and unforgiving of kitchen accidents. Although it is
generally said to lower the heat by 25 deg F when using glass instead
of metal, I do not do so myself with bread.
>
>I put the pans in the oven set to 105 and covered them with a damp
>dish towel (because someone once suggested that I do so). About an
>hour later, some dough stuck to the towel when I removed it.

Is this your second rise? Ideally, there should be a first rise in a
greased bowl. The best flavors develop when this rise (and any
subsequent proofing) is done at room temperature, or cooler. Even the
fridge is good for it. 105 deg F is unnecessary.

There are newer trends these days that call for stretching and folding
the dough during this first "bowl" rise. It makes for better gluten
development. If you want more information, google "stretch and fold"
and you can read up on it...

Ok..let's say you are doing a standard first proof. When your dough
has doubled, you want to gently remove it from the bowl, de-gas it a
bit, divide it and shape it. Then you can go for your final rise in
the bread pans (side note again - there are some doughs that get their
final rise as free-form loaves on baking sheets, on a couche or in
brotforms. Again, google for interest. Come back with questions).

>
>Q2: Is the damp towel a good idea and if so, why?

When you have shaped your loaves, you might want to spray your pans
before you put the dough in. You do want to keep the outside of the
dough from forming too hard a skin, so try any of the following....
flour the top, or spray with oil, or butter it. Then cover it gently
with a *floured* towel or plastic wrap. You can also leave the loaves
uncoated, then place them, pan and all, into a large plastic bag, that
is then sealed. That gives it a moist environment for the final
proof. Some folks put a bowl of water into the microwave along with
the loaves in pans. It can also provide a stable temp and moist
environment. YMMV.
>
>I took the pans out of the oven for about 10 minutes while it heated
>up to 350. (I switched to the convection setting which turns on the
>fan.) Even though the pans were warm, the dough fell, which is not
>what I wanted.

They were over proofed and collapsed when you moved them around. How
quickly your loaves are proofed depends on myriad thing - the overall
recipe, the temperature, the hydration, the amount of yeast, or yeast
vs sourdough, etc..lots of variables.
>
>Q3: Can I leave the pans in the oven while it heats up to baking
>temperature?

Some folks start their breads in a cold oven. I do not, as I tend to
bake lean dough (no fats, eggs, etc) breads that require high temps of
450-500 deg F.

Even so, 350 deg F is very low for bread baking.

Boron

On Sep 20, 3:53 pm, Boron Elgar > wrote:

>
> >I used my machine to mix the ingredients and let it rise twice. At
> >the beginning of the third rise, I removed the dough from the pan,
> >streached it into a longish tube, divided it with a knife, and put the
> >two halves into thin metal baking pans with an anti-stick coating like
> >silverstone.

I just use the dough cycle on the abm which takes hour and 40 mins,
then I dump the dough straight from the ABM into a nonstick (WORTH
THE MONEY - the bread almost jumps out of em) metal loaf pan and let
it rise again for 45 minutes, covered with some oiled plastic wrap
Preheat the oven during the last 10 or 15 minutes of this 45 minute
period. I bought the loaf pans at Kmart for about 5.99 each.


I don't bother with a third rise-- heck, I'm never home home long
enough during the day for all this expenditure of time.

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:53:53 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:03:42 -0500, Bob Simon >
>wrote:
>
>>I have three questions about baking bread and hope some of you experts
>>can give me some pointers.
>>
>>I used my machine to mix the ingredients and let it rise twice. At
>>the beginning of the third rise, I removed the dough from the pan,
>>streached it into a longish tube, divided it with a knife, and put the
>>two halves into thin metal baking pans with an anti-stick coating like
>>silverstone.
>>
>>Q1: My wife also has glass baking pans. Which style is better for
>>baking and why?
>
>I use either sort. The glass ones, by their nature, are a bit more
>delicate and unforgiving of kitchen accidents. Although it is
>generally said to lower the heat by 25 deg F when using glass instead
>of metal, I do not do so myself with bread.
>>
>>I put the pans in the oven set to 105 and covered them with a damp
>>dish towel (because someone once suggested that I do so). About an
>>hour later, some dough stuck to the towel when I removed it.
>
>Is this your second rise? Ideally, there should be a first rise in a
>greased bowl. The best flavors develop when this rise (and any
>subsequent proofing) is done at room temperature, or cooler. Even the
>fridge is good for it. 105 deg F is unnecessary.

This is the third rise. Before I take out the dough, the bread
machine has:
mixed and kneaded the dough
40 min first rise
40 sec "gas squeeze out"
36 min second rise

I take the dough out around the beginning of the third rise for three
reasons:
I prefer horizontal loaves,
I don't like the hole left in the bread when you take out the blade,
I lake to get a second loaf.

>
>There are newer trends these days that call for stretching and folding
>the dough during this first "bowl" rise. It makes for better gluten
>development. If you want more information, google "stretch and fold"
>and you can read up on it...
>
>Ok..let's say you are doing a standard first proof. When your dough
>has doubled, you want to gently remove it from the bowl, de-gas it a
>bit, divide it and shape it. Then you can go for your final rise in
>the bread pans (side note again - there are some doughs that get their
>final rise as free-form loaves on baking sheets, on a couche or in
>brotforms. Again, google for interest. Come back with questions).
>
>>
>>Q2: Is the damp towel a good idea and if so, why?
>
>When you have shaped your loaves, you might want to spray your pans
>before you put the dough in. You do want to keep the outside of the
>dough from forming too hard a skin, so try any of the following....
>flour the top, or spray with oil, or butter it. Then cover it gently
>with a *floured* towel or plastic wrap. You can also leave the loaves
>uncoated, then place them, pan and all, into a large plastic bag, that
>is then sealed. That gives it a moist environment for the final
>proof. Some folks put a bowl of water into the microwave along with
>the loaves in pans. It can also provide a stable temp and moist
>environment. YMMV.
>>
>>I took the pans out of the oven for about 10 minutes while it heated
>>up to 350. (I switched to the convection setting which turns on the
>>fan.) Even though the pans were warm, the dough fell, which is not
>>what I wanted.
>
>They were over proofed and collapsed when you moved them around. How
>quickly your loaves are proofed depends on myriad thing - the overall
>recipe, the temperature, the hydration, the amount of yeast, or yeast
>vs sourdough, etc..lots of variables.
>>
>>Q3: Can I leave the pans in the oven while it heats up to baking
>>temperature?
>
>Some folks start their breads in a cold oven. I do not, as I tend to
>bake lean dough (no fats, eggs, etc) breads that require high temps of
>450-500 deg F.
>
>Even so, 350 deg F is very low for bread baking.

I find that when I use the oven in convection mode, I need to reduce
the temp by 25 - 50 degrees if I'm going to keep the time the same. 42
min at 350 works for me. What do you use?


>Boron
Bob

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:12:51 -0700 (PDT), val189
> wrote:

>On Sep 20, 3:53 pm, Boron Elgar > wrote:
>
>>
>> >I used my machine to mix the ingredients and let it rise twice. At
>> >the beginning of the third rise, I removed the dough from the pan,
>> >streached it into a longish tube, divided it with a knife, and put the
>> >two halves into thin metal baking pans with an anti-stick coating like
>> >silverstone.
>
>I just use the dough cycle on the abm which takes hour and 40 mins,

My dough cycle takes the same amount of time. But the whole wheat
cyle does two kneads, which I presume is helpful.

>then I dump the dough straight from the ABM into a nonstick (WORTH
>THE MONEY - the bread almost jumps out of em) metal loaf pan and let
>it rise again for 45 minutes, covered with some oiled plastic wrap
>Preheat the oven during the last 10 or 15 minutes of this 45 minute
>period. I bought the loaf pans at Kmart for about 5.99 each.
>
>
>I don't bother with a third rise-- heck, I'm never home home long
>enough during the day for all this expenditure of time.

My machine has a delay start cycle. I set it to start in the middle
of the night then got up at 5am to take the dough out of the machine
and divide it. After the third rise and baking, I had fresh bread for
breakfast at 7:30.

On Sep 20, 6:10 pm, Bob Simon > wrote:

> This is the third rise. Before I take out the dough, the bread
> machine has:
> mixed and kneaded the dough
> 40 min first rise
> 40 sec "gas squeeze out"
> 36 min second rise

OH-- I get it. I have never really observed what my machine's doing
during that 1 hour 40 minutes and didn't realize this is where you
were counting the first and second rises.

I also like to bake em in the regular oven. I have two identical
ABM's (inherited the secondone) and can make two loaves at once. Yes,
I hate that hole too and like the conventional shape of a loaf.

Whatever you do, be mindful of that paddle. I somehow tossed mine and
went thru considerable hassle and expesne to get a replcmnt.

On Sep 20, 6:13 pm, Bob Simon > wrote:

> My machine has a delay start cycle. I set it to start in the middle
> of the night then got up at 5am to take the dough out of the machine
> and divide it. After the third rise and baking, I had fresh bread for
> breakfast at 7:30.

I have never trusted this feature, so never tried it. Isn't the bread
a little hard to slice, being that fresh and still warm? I always let
mine sit at least 12 hours before slicing.

On Sep 21, 8:57*am, val189 > wrote:
> On Sep 20, 6:13 pm, Bob Simon > wrote:
>
> > My machine has a delay start cycle. *I set it to start in the middle
> > of the night then got up at 5am to take the dough out of the machine
> > and divide it. *After the third rise and baking, I had fresh bread for
> > breakfast at 7:30.
>
> I have never trusted this feature, so never tried it. *Isn't the bread
> a little hard to slice, being that fresh and still warm? *I always let
> mine sit at least 12 hours before slicing.

I've never used a bread machine but I'm pretty good at slicing bread
just out of the oven. Just saw quickly and with almost no downward
pressure on the knife. The apply lots of buttern and eat.

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:10:59 -0500, Bob Simon >
wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:53:53 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>
>>>I put the pans in the oven set to 105 and covered them with a damp
>>>dish towel (because someone once suggested that I do so). About an
>>>hour later, some dough stuck to the towel when I removed it.
>>
>>Is this your second rise? Ideally, there should be a first rise in a
>>greased bowl. The best flavors develop when this rise (and any
>>subsequent proofing) is done at room temperature, or cooler. Even the
>>fridge is good for it. 105 deg F is unnecessary.
>
>This is the third rise. Before I take out the dough, the bread
>machine has:
>mixed and kneaded the dough
>40 min first rise
>40 sec "gas squeeze out"
>36 min second rise
>
>I take the dough out around the beginning of the third rise for three
>reasons:
>I prefer horizontal loaves,
>I don't like the hole left in the bread when you take out the blade,
>I lake to get a second loaf.

You have a 2lb bread machine? And when you remove the dough you make
two small loaves in pans? I am just trying to get some idea of the
amount of dough you have in there.

You may find that if you take the dough out right after the initial
machine mixing and do your proofing in a larger container with a few
stretch and folds, you could get better gluten development.

Additionally, the proof should be dictated by the action of the
dough, rather than strictly by time.

Ultimately my advice is to use your bread maker to mix the dough if
you wish, but not to manage your proofing.

snip

>>Even so, 350 deg F is very low for bread baking.
>
>I find that when I use the oven in convection mode, I need to reduce
>the temp by 25 - 50 degrees if I'm going to keep the time the same. 42
>min at 350 works for me. What do you use?

So far this today I've made two dozen bagels, two dozen English
muffins and a loaf of English muffin bread (just took part of the
muffin dough that I shape separately and bake as a regular loaf,
rather than griddled like the muffins).

All these breads were started Friday night or Saturday morning with
pre-ferments. The bagels had a final dough mix and shape and were put
into the fridge overnight to be boiled and baked this morning. The
English muffins had a final mix this morning, then were proofed and
griddled. The muffin loaf was proofed as the muffins were being made
and baked after the bagels came out.

The bagels were baked at 425 deg F, as was the muffin loaf.

If I am doing my "artisan" type breads, I preheat the oven (and the
stone) to 500 deg F and bake at that temp. If those loaves are large,
I may drop the temp back to 450 deg during the bake.

I also have four loaves a mandelbrot in the oven right now (think of
them as a Jewish equivalent to biscotti).

There are many places online to get bread baking information and
advice, as well as to post and exchange ideas. A few of my favorites
a

alt.bread.recipes and http://abrfaq.info/
www.thefreshloaf.com
http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/index.htm
http://www.theartisan.net/bredfrm.htm


Boron