Does anyone have one? My local appliance dealer has this one of the floor
and said he'd give me a good price.
http://www.bertazzoni-italia.com/Pro...CatID=PS&ID=47

It is a rather beefy looking unit, very well finished. Only drawback is
that the oven is not self cleaning.

Until yesterday I had never heard of Bertazzoni, but they have been in
business for 120 years. They are made in Emilia Romagna, the same area that
makes the Ferrari.

Other brands under consideration so far are Kitchen Aid and Bosch.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> Does anyone have one? My local appliance dealer has this one of the floor
> and said he'd give me a good price.
> http://www.bertazzoni-italia.com/Pro...CatID=PS&ID=47
>
> It is a rather beefy looking unit, very well finished. Only drawback is
> that the oven is not self cleaning.
>
> Until yesterday I had never heard of Bertazzoni, but they have been in
> business for 120 years. They are made in Emilia Romagna, the same area that
> makes the Ferrari.
>
> Other brands under consideration so far are Kitchen Aid and Bosch.
>
>


Does your local dealer service it? Do they stock parts?
It does look robust, but ablity to get service is very important.

gloria p

"Gloria P" > wrote in message
. ..
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> Does anyone have one? My local appliance dealer has this one of the
>> floor and said he'd give me a good price.
>> http://www.bertazzoni-italia.com/Pro...CatID=PS&ID=47
>>
>> It is a rather beefy looking unit, very well finished. Only drawback is
>> that the oven is not self cleaning.
>>
>> Until yesterday I had never heard of Bertazzoni, but they have been in
>> business for 120 years. They are made in Emilia Romagna, the same area
>> that makes the Ferrari.
>>
>> Other brands under consideration so far are Kitchen Aid and Bosch.
>
>
> Does your local dealer service it? Do they stock parts?
> It does look robust, but ablity to get service is very important.
>
> gloria p

That is a concern that I've not resolved yet. The other nearest dealers are
25 to 35 miles away. I've not done the parts test yet. When my son was a
teenager, he always wanted to buy some fancy car on sale for $200 or so. My
words of wisdom to him was "call the auto parts store and ask how much a
starter (or alternator, etc) would cost". The Reply was often a very high
price or a special order that would take weeks.

On Apr 30, 10:26�pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote:
> Does anyone have one? �My local appliance dealer has this one of the floor
> and said he'd give me a good price.http://www.bertazzoni-italia.com/Pro...CatID=PS&ID=47
>
> It is a rather beefy looking unit, very well finished. �Only drawback is
> that the oven is not self cleaning.
>
> Until yesterday I had never heard of Bertazzoni, but they have been in
> business for 120 years. �They are made in Emilia Romagna, the same area that
> makes the Ferrari.
>
> Other brands under consideration so far are Kitchen Aid and Bosch.

It's obviously a true commercial stove with no bells and whistles...
do you really need all that BTU power... you may need to redo your
kitchen to accomodate safe clearances and you will need the
recommended exhaust set up. Personally I wouldn't buy a stove for
home use that doesn't have a self clean oven, and I like and use all
the bells and whistles. Without knowing total price (including a
probable kitchen make over) it's not possible to give an honest
opinion. But I would strongly suggest checking out other commercial
stoves (not commercial *style*), and then seriously search your soul
for why you think you need such a powerful monster.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Gloria P" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> >> Does anyone have one? My local appliance dealer has this one of the
> >> floor and said he'd give me a good price.
> >> http://www.bertazzoni-italia.com/Pro...CatID=PS&ID=47
> >>
> >> It is a rather beefy looking unit, very well finished. Only drawback is
> >> that the oven is not self cleaning.
> >>
> >> Until yesterday I had never heard of Bertazzoni, but they have been in
> >> business for 120 years. They are made in Emilia Romagna, the same area
> >> that makes the Ferrari.
> >>
> >> Other brands under consideration so far are Kitchen Aid and Bosch.
> >
> >
> > Does your local dealer service it? Do they stock parts?
> > It does look robust, but ablity to get service is very important.
> >
> > gloria p
>
> That is a concern that I've not resolved yet. The other nearest dealers are
> 25 to 35 miles away. I've not done the parts test yet. When my son was a
> teenager, he always wanted to buy some fancy car on sale for $200 or so. My
> words of wisdom to him was "call the auto parts store and ask how much a
> starter (or alternator, etc) would cost". The Reply was often a very high
> price or a special order that would take weeks.

Exactly, it might be a nice unit, but parts and service can be a real
issue. That and some Italian made machines can be rather odd and
temperamental to work on (try an Olivetti CNC lathe some time...).

Pete C. wrote:

>
> Exactly, it might be a nice unit, but parts and service can be a real
> issue. That and some Italian made machines can be rather odd and
> temperamental to work on (try an Olivetti CNC lathe some time...).

I remember having an Olivetti typewriter in high school for a short
time. It was a gorgeous, sleek design but a real lemon. The dealer
gave me a Smith Corona as an even exchange even thought it was more
expensive. He felt badly for having recommended the Olivetti.
Those were the days of customer service and merchants taking responsibility!

gloria p

"Pete C." > wrote in message
>
> Exactly, it might be a nice unit, but parts and service can be a real
> issue. That and some Italian made machines can be rather odd and
> temperamental to work on (try an Olivetti CNC lathe some time...).

One of the things I like about this is the fact that it does not have an
electronic control panel that will cost $1500 to replace five years from
now. Burner controls are fairly simple and last for decades.

We have four Italian built machines at work. The most difficult problem is
trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is now
obsolete. Getting further off topic, we had a service tech from Italy here
and two service techs from Austria to work on their respective machines.
The differences in how they work is much different. The Italian does
mechanical work and if we need electronic help they'd send another. The
Austrian's can build or repair any of their machines from ground up and can
do the most complex rebuilding of any part.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Pete C." > wrote in message
> >
> > Exactly, it might be a nice unit, but parts and service can be a real
> > issue. That and some Italian made machines can be rather odd and
> > temperamental to work on (try an Olivetti CNC lathe some time...).
>
> One of the things I like about this is the fact that it does not have an
> electronic control panel that will cost $1500 to replace five years from
> now. Burner controls are fairly simple and last for decades.
>
> We have four Italian built machines at work. The most difficult problem is
> trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is now
> obsolete. Getting further off topic, we had a service tech from Italy here
> and two service techs from Austria to work on their respective machines.
> The differences in how they work is much different. The Italian does
> mechanical work and if we need electronic help they'd send another. The
> Austrian's can build or repair any of their machines from ground up and can
> do the most complex rebuilding of any part.

The Italian lathe I mentioned had a tool turret design like not other...
and for good reason too, it looked elegant on the print, but when you
tried to adjust it and get it to work properly you realized why no other
CNC lathe builder used a design like it.

On Thu, 01 May 2008 02:26:50 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>Until yesterday I had never heard of Bertazzoni, but they have been in
>business for 120 years. They are made in Emilia Romagna, the same area that
>makes the Ferrari.

It's also home to the Reggio Emilia approach to early childhood
education. Interesting area. http://www.italyworldclub.com/emilia/

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On Thu, 01 May 2008 08:21:09 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
>Exactly, it might be a nice unit, but parts and service can be a real
>issue. That and some Italian made machines can be rather odd and
>temperamental to work on (try an Olivetti CNC lathe some time...).

I'm not buying that argument. Any unit with hard to replace parts
should be considered disposable and I wouldn't worry about it. How
often do you actually have to fix any unit (unless it's a piece of
cr*p) before it goes out of date? I've had my Thermadore cooktop for
30 years and it finally needs a burner to be replaced after constant
use. The only reason I haven't replaced the cooktop is because I
haven't moved. If I sold the house, I'd replace it. If I bought the
house, I'd replace it. As it is.... my cooktop is like an old friend.
I like it and it does what I want it to do.

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On Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>The most difficult problem is
>trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is now
>obsolete.

Well, obsolete is the *main* problem. Unless Seimens has taken a big
fall of late, they are highly regarded and completely reliable.

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"sf" <.> wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> wrote:
>
>>The most difficult problem is
>>trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is
>>now
>>obsolete.
>
> Well, obsolete is the *main* problem. Unless Seimens has taken a big
> fall of late, they are highly regarded and completely reliable.
>

When you spend $200,000, you don't want to hear obsolete five years later
and need a new model at $25,000 plus programming. The new models of display
are going to crap too in a couple of years. This is for a display that would
have cost about $1200 new.

On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:52:18 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>
>"sf" <.> wrote in message ...
>> On Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>The most difficult problem is
>>>trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is
>>>now
>>>obsolete.
>>
>> Well, obsolete is the *main* problem. Unless Seimens has taken a big
>> fall of late, they are highly regarded and completely reliable.
>>
>
>When you spend $200,000, you don't want to hear obsolete five years later
>and need a new model at $25,000 plus programming. The new models of display
>are going to crap too in a couple of years. This is for a display that would
>have cost about $1200 new.
>
Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. When you're talking about a
$200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
commercial establishment.
1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
need to rethink your business plan.
2. Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.

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sf wrote:
>
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:52:18 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"sf" <.> wrote in message ...
> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>The most difficult problem is
> >>>trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is
> >>>now
> >>>obsolete.
> >>
> >> Well, obsolete is the *main* problem. Unless Seimens has taken a big
> >> fall of late, they are highly regarded and completely reliable.
> >>
> >
> >When you spend $200,000, you don't want to hear obsolete five years later
> >and need a new model at $25,000 plus programming. The new models of display
> >are going to crap too in a couple of years. This is for a display that would
> >have cost about $1200 new.
> >
> Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. When you're talking about a
> $200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
> commercial establishment.
> 1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
> need to rethink your business plan.
> 2. Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
> fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.

You apparently know nothing of the investments or business models of
machine shops and manufacturing in general. This type of equipment is
expected to have a service life measured in decades, like 20 years
minimum, and even then it is not thrown out, it is sold to smaller shops
who will operate it for another decade or two.

The huge manufactures producing millions of a given product can and do
change equipment more frequently to maximize production speed. The tens
of thousands of smaller manufactures and general machine shops where a
machine may be producing a particular part for only a week or two before
changing to something completely different don't have the luxury of
optimizing for a single task.

And, yes, I spent 5 or 6 years servicing CNC machines in a wide variety
of shops, so I have some idea what I'm talking about.

On Fri, 02 May 2008 10:08:44 -0500, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
>sf wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:52:18 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"sf" <.> wrote in message ...
>> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>The most difficult problem is
>> >>>trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is
>> >>>now
>> >>>obsolete.
>> >>
>> >> Well, obsolete is the *main* problem. Unless Seimens has taken a big
>> >> fall of late, they are highly regarded and completely reliable.
>> >>
>> >
>> >When you spend $200,000, you don't want to hear obsolete five years later
>> >and need a new model at $25,000 plus programming. The new models of display
>> >are going to crap too in a couple of years. This is for a display that would
>> >have cost about $1200 new.
>> >
>> Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. When you're talking about a
>> $200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
>> commercial establishment.
>> 1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
>> need to rethink your business plan.
>> 2. Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
>> fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.
>
>You apparently know nothing of the investments or business models of
>machine shops and manufacturing in general. This type of equipment is
>expected to have a service life measured in decades, like 20 years
>minimum, and even then it is not thrown out, it is sold to smaller shops
>who will operate it for another decade or two.
>
>The huge manufactures producing millions of a given product can and do
>change equipment more frequently to maximize production speed. The tens
>of thousands of smaller manufactures and general machine shops where a
>machine may be producing a particular part for only a week or two before
>changing to something completely different don't have the luxury of
>optimizing for a single task.
>
>And, yes, I spent 5 or 6 years servicing CNC machines in a wide variety
>of shops, so I have some idea what I'm talking about.

Thanks. You reinforced what I said.


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"sf" <.> wrote in message
> Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. When you're talking about a
> $200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
> commercial establishment.
> 1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
> need to rethink your business plan.
> 2. Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
> fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.

Laughable.

We did in fact, recently scrap a machine because it would be too expensive
to make it compatible with the new EPA regulations we have to meet. It ran
as well and as efficiently as the new machines. It was built in the 1960's.
Why would I want to replace a perfectly good machine that is running well,
long paid for, and spend $200,000 for a new machine plus another $150,000
for piping and installation? Not to mention compatibility issues of existing
tooling with new machines

Repairs and maintenance is a part of normal business and we spend a lot of
money on that. What you suggest is equal to tossing your three year old car
because it needs a new gas gauge.

Ask your accountant about the depreciation schedule for machinery.

Many industries have machinery that is 25, even 50 years old that is in use
every day because no one has come up with a better idea.

On Fri, 2 May 2008 22:08:40 -0400, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>
>"sf" <.> wrote in message
>> Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. When you're talking about a
>> $200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
>> commercial establishment.
>> 1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
>> need to rethink your business plan.
>> 2. Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
>> fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.
>
>Laughable.
>
>We did in fact, recently scrap a machine because it would be too expensive
>to make it compatible with the new EPA regulations we have to meet. It ran
>as well and as efficiently as the new machines. It was built in the 1960's.
>Why would I want to replace a perfectly good machine that is running well,
>long paid for, and spend $200,000 for a new machine plus another $150,000
>for piping and installation? Not to mention compatibility issues of existing
>tooling with new machines
>
>Repairs and maintenance is a part of normal business and we spend a lot of
>money on that. What you suggest is equal to tossing your three year old car
>because it needs a new gas gauge.
>
>Ask your accountant about the depreciation schedule for machinery.
>
>Many industries have machinery that is 25, even 50 years old that is in use
>every day because no one has come up with a better idea.
>
You and Pete need to have a little conversation. He said he'd replace
it and sell the old one.

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"Sheldon" > wrote in message
It's obviously a true commercial stove with no bells and whistles...
do you really need all that BTU power... you may need to redo your
kitchen to accomodate safe clearances and you will need the
recommended exhaust set up. Personally I wouldn't buy a stove for
home use that doesn't have a self clean oven, and I like and use all
the bells and whistles. Without knowing total price (including a
probable kitchen make over) it's not possible to give an honest
opinion. But I would strongly suggest checking out other commercial
stoves (not commercial *style*), and then seriously search your soul
for why you think you need such a powerful monster.

************************************************** *********

In spite of the commercial appearance, it is designed and built for
residential use. If you mean commercial as in no electronics, you are
correct. It is zero clearance on the sides. Only one burner (15,000 Btu)
is larger than what I have now. Two are smaller and very adequate for most
cooking and simmering.

Some of the bells and whistles on new equipment is nice, but we have not
used the timer on our for years. Never had the need for a timed start, but
I'm sure others do or they'd not make it. The electronic controls for the
oven are nice, but if the mechanical regulation is good, the advantage of
plus or minus a half degree is negligible in the scheme of normal cooking.
When I think about how many ranges are still in use after 20, 30, 40 years
with little or no problems, I have to wonder what you do when the
electronics fail on a $2000 range 5 or 10 years from now. Our existing range
is 21 years old and this is the second problem in all that time. Oven
igniter went before. .

I'll find out the price when we go shopping tomorrow. I was told by the guy
in the store (not the owner) that I could get a good deal since it has been
sitting on the floor for a while. Right now, it is priced $500 under what
I've found on the internet. At least some of that difference is due to the
exchange rate and I'd not pay $3000+ for it.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

"sf" <.> wrote in message
>>
> You and Pete need to have a little conversation. He said he'd replace
> it and sell the old one.
>

We're in a specialized industry and little market for the old one. Sorry,
but it does not make $$$ sense to do that.

On May 2, 1:49�am, sf <.> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 May 2008 08:21:09 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Exactly, it might be a nice unit, but parts and service can be a real
> >issue. That and some Italian made machines can be rather odd and
> >temperamental to work on (try an Olivetti CNC lathe some time...).
>
> I'm not buying that argument. �Any unit with hard to replace parts
> should be considered disposable and I wouldn't worry about it. �How
> often do you actually have to fix any unit (unless it's a piece of
> cr*p) before it goes out of date? �I've had my Thermadore cooktop for
> 30 years and it finally needs a burner to be replaced after constant
> use. �The only reason I haven't replaced the cooktop is because I
> haven't moved. �If I sold the house, I'd replace it. �If I bought the
> house, I'd replace it. �As it is.... my cooktop is like an old friend.
> I like it and it does what I want it to do.

Comparing a high end gas cook stove (let's say costs $3,000) to a high
end CNC machine tool (let's say costs half a million bucks +
instalation, another couple hundred thou) is a nonsensical analogy...
gas cook stoves will never become obsolete in ones lifetime whereas
any CNC machine tool will become obsolete in the same kind of time
frame as a computer. CNC machine tools are meant to be used at full
capacity 24/7... no manufacturing company is going to invest in
machines that cost from a quarter million to many millions just to
have it sit there collecting dust. And when after a few years it's
time for a replacement because it's mechanically worn and it's
controls are antiquated the manufacturer will need to pay a hefty sum
just to have it removed and hauled off to the scrap yard, they
typically have the same kind of comparable resale value as a five year
old PC. Any private industry manufacturer who can't make such a
machine pay for itself plus net a hefty profit within five years has
no business being in that business. You can compare a gas cook stove
to standard machine tools (most are fully serviceable after 50 years
and more) but not to CNC machine tools.

On May 2, 10:48�pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote:
> "Sheldon" > wrote in message
>
> It's obviously a true commercial stove with no bells and whistles...
> do you really need all that BTU power... you may need to redo your
> kitchen to accomodate safe clearances and you will need the
> recommended exhaust set up. �Personally I wouldn't buy a stove for
> home use that doesn't have a self clean oven, and I like and use all
> the bells and whistles. �Without knowing total price (including a
> probable kitchen make over) it's not possible to give an honest
> opinion. �But I would strongly suggest checking out other commercial
> stoves (not commercial *style*), and then seriously search your soul
> for why you think you need such a powerful monster.
>
> ************************************************** *********
>
> In spite of the commercial appearance, it is designed and built for
> residential use. �If you mean commercial as in no electronics, you are
> correct. � It is zero clearance on the sides. �Only one burner (15,000 Btu)
> is larger than what I have now. �Two are smaller and very adequate for most
> cooking and simmering.

Somehow I thought it said a 18,000 BTU burner. Even so I don't like
that low rear backsplash... perhaps they have an add-on.

> Some of the bells and whistles on new equipment is nice, but we have not
> used the timer on our for years. �Never had the need for a timed start, but
> I'm sure others do or they'd not make it. �The electronic controls for the
> oven are nice, but if the mechanical regulation is good, the advantage of
> plus or minus a half degree is negligible in the scheme of normal cooking.

I've never used the timed start on my stove but I do use the timed
stop often... something I didn't feel comfortable with at first but
eventually it got to where I wouldn't want a stove without it. I'm
not concerned with exquisitey precise oven temperatures but I do like
having the temperature displayed and I like that it beeps to tell me
that it has reached temperature. And of course I'd never buy a stove
that wasn't self clean, in fact I wouldn't take one if it were for
free... I don't ever want to clean an oven again.


> When I think about how many ranges are still in use after 20, 30, 40 years
> with little or no problems, I have to wonder what you do when the
> electronics fail on a $2000 range 5 or 10 years from now.

I'm not going to worry about it, if I did I wouldn't buy an
automobile, a TV, a PC, or any of today's modern goods employing
electronics. The computer module died on my stove just after the five
year warranty ran out, during a lightening storm. But I was partly at
fault for not paying the few dollars for the extended waranty. Since
then I always purchase the extended warranty on expensive
appliances.... I recently bought a new flat panel HDTV, was only $21 a
month extra for the extended warranty, I took it for an additional
five years.... the TV came with only one year, so now I have six
years... a bargain on an expensive TV.


Our existing range
> is 21 years old and this is the second problem in all that time. Oven
> igniter went before. .
>
> I'll find out the price when we go shopping tomorrow. �I was told by the guy
> in the store (not the owner) �that I could get a good deal since it has been
> sitting on the floor for a while.

Perhaps there's a reason it's been sitting a while.


Right now, it is priced $500 under what
> I've found on the internet. �At least some of that difference is due to the
> exchange rate and I'd not pay $3000+ for it.

High end stoves today are expensive. If I'm going to spend that kind
of money I want all the bells and whistles but more importantly I want
a stove made by a company that I know will stand behind it's product
regardless where I purchased it or how long ago... that's why I like
GE... if I have a question, need service, or need a new part all I
have to do is get on the phone... when I first bought my GE stove I
noticed that one of the cast iron burner grates was warped, no pot
would sit on it without rocking, I phoned GE customer service and they
sent me four new grates no charge, no hassle. At first I thought they
made an error so I phoned, they said that's how that part comes, a set
of four... I have enough grates to last a few life times. I don't
like to buy appliances that I can't find in every major appliance
store... what will you do if that oven door glass breaks and you can't
get a replacement... hunt junk yards for a windshield from a Yugo...
but seriously you may need to wait months before one becomes
available.

For three grand you can buy a top of the line GE, and have money left
over for food to cook.

The Cafe model is nice but I like the Profile better: http://tinyurl.com/3qspdh

http://products.geappliances.com/App...4&SIT EID=GEA
---

And if you really, really gotta have a stand out stove go with the GE
Monogram line: http://tinyurl.com/6qv32c

http://products.geappliances.com/App...&MONWEB=MH0023
---

sf wrote:
>
> On Fri, 02 May 2008 10:08:44 -0500, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >sf wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:52:18 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"sf" <.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>The most difficult problem is
> >> >>>trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is
> >> >>>now
> >> >>>obsolete.
> >> >>
> >> >> Well, obsolete is the *main* problem. Unless Seimens has taken a big
> >> >> fall of late, they are highly regarded and completely reliable.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >When you spend $200,000, you don't want to hear obsolete five years later
> >> >and need a new model at $25,000 plus programming. The new models of display
> >> >are going to crap too in a couple of years. This is for a display that would
> >> >have cost about $1200 new.
> >> >
> >> Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. When you're talking about a
> >> $200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
> >> commercial establishment.
> >> 1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
> >> need to rethink your business plan.
> >> 2. Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
> >> fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.
> >
> >You apparently know nothing of the investments or business models of
> >machine shops and manufacturing in general. This type of equipment is
> >expected to have a service life measured in decades, like 20 years
> >minimum, and even then it is not thrown out, it is sold to smaller shops
> >who will operate it for another decade or two.
> >
> >The huge manufactures producing millions of a given product can and do
> >change equipment more frequently to maximize production speed. The tens
> >of thousands of smaller manufactures and general machine shops where a
> >machine may be producing a particular part for only a week or two before
> >changing to something completely different don't have the luxury of
> >optimizing for a single task.
> >
> >And, yes, I spent 5 or 6 years servicing CNC machines in a wide variety
> >of shops, so I have some idea what I'm talking about.
>
> Thanks. You reinforced what I said.

Yes, that you are an idiot.

sf wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2 May 2008 22:08:40 -0400, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"sf" <.> wrote in message
> >> Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. When you're talking about a
> >> $200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
> >> commercial establishment.
> >> 1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
> >> need to rethink your business plan.
> >> 2. Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
> >> fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.
> >
> >Laughable.
> >
> >We did in fact, recently scrap a machine because it would be too expensive
> >to make it compatible with the new EPA regulations we have to meet. It ran
> >as well and as efficiently as the new machines. It was built in the 1960's.
> >Why would I want to replace a perfectly good machine that is running well,
> >long paid for, and spend $200,000 for a new machine plus another $150,000
> >for piping and installation? Not to mention compatibility issues of existing
> >tooling with new machines
> >
> >Repairs and maintenance is a part of normal business and we spend a lot of
> >money on that. What you suggest is equal to tossing your three year old car
> >because it needs a new gas gauge.
> >
> >Ask your accountant about the depreciation schedule for machinery.
> >
> >Many industries have machinery that is 25, even 50 years old that is in use
> >every day because no one has come up with a better idea.
> >
> You and Pete need to have a little conversation. He said he'd replace
> it and sell the old one.

No I didn't. You need to take remedial reading 101.

On Mon, 05 May 2008 03:14:54 GMT, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>
>sf wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 02 May 2008 10:08:44 -0500, "Pete C." >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >sf wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:52:18 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"sf" <.> wrote in message ...
>> >> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>The most difficult problem is
>> >> >>>trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is
>> >> >>>now
>> >> >>>obsolete.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Well, obsolete is the *main* problem. Unless Seimens has taken a big
>> >> >> fall of late, they are highly regarded and completely reliable.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >When you spend $200,000, you don't want to hear obsolete five years later
>> >> >and need a new model at $25,000 plus programming. The new models of display
>> >> >are going to crap too in a couple of years. This is for a display that would
>> >> >have cost about $1200 new.
>> >> >
>> >> Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. When you're talking about a
>> >> $200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
>> >> commercial establishment.
>> >> 1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
>> >> need to rethink your business plan.
>> >> 2. Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
>> >> fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.
>> >
>> >You apparently know nothing of the investments or business models of
>> >machine shops and manufacturing in general. This type of equipment is
>> >expected to have a service life measured in decades, like 20 years
>> >minimum, and even then it is not thrown out, it is sold to smaller shops
>> >who will operate it for another decade or two.
>> >
>> >The huge manufactures producing millions of a given product can and do
>> >change equipment more frequently to maximize production speed. The tens
>> >of thousands of smaller manufactures and general machine shops where a
>> >machine may be producing a particular part for only a week or two before
>> >changing to something completely different don't have the luxury of
>> >optimizing for a single task.
>> >
>> >And, yes, I spent 5 or 6 years servicing CNC machines in a wide variety
>> >of shops, so I have some idea what I'm talking about.
>>
>> Thanks. You reinforced what I said.
>
>Yes, that you are an idiot.

LOLOL! Never mind you're not talking about home stoves. Oh, no...
let's not mention how you conveniently changed the topic to suit your
own self serving, egomaniac, purpose.

I stand by what I said: If it doesn't pay off in 5 years, then you
need to rethink your business plan. You're out of your league.


--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

sf wrote:
>
> On Mon, 05 May 2008 03:14:54 GMT, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >sf wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 10:08:44 -0500, "Pete C." >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >sf wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:52:18 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"sf" <.> wrote in message ...
> >> >> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>The most difficult problem is
> >> >> >>>trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is
> >> >> >>>now
> >> >> >>>obsolete.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Well, obsolete is the *main* problem. Unless Seimens has taken a big
> >> >> >> fall of late, they are highly regarded and completely reliable.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When you spend $200,000, you don't want to hear obsolete five years later
> >> >> >and need a new model at $25,000 plus programming. The new models of display
> >> >> >are going to crap too in a couple of years. This is for a display that would
> >> >> >have cost about $1200 new.
> >> >> >
> >> >> Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. When you're talking about a
> >> >> $200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
> >> >> commercial establishment.
> >> >> 1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
> >> >> need to rethink your business plan.
> >> >> 2. Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
> >> >> fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.
> >> >
> >> >You apparently know nothing of the investments or business models of
> >> >machine shops and manufacturing in general. This type of equipment is
> >> >expected to have a service life measured in decades, like 20 years
> >> >minimum, and even then it is not thrown out, it is sold to smaller shops
> >> >who will operate it for another decade or two.
> >> >
> >> >The huge manufactures producing millions of a given product can and do
> >> >change equipment more frequently to maximize production speed. The tens
> >> >of thousands of smaller manufactures and general machine shops where a
> >> >machine may be producing a particular part for only a week or two before
> >> >changing to something completely different don't have the luxury of
> >> >optimizing for a single task.
> >> >
> >> >And, yes, I spent 5 or 6 years servicing CNC machines in a wide variety
> >> >of shops, so I have some idea what I'm talking about.
> >>
> >> Thanks. You reinforced what I said.
> >
> >Yes, that you are an idiot.
>
> LOLOL! Never mind you're not talking about home stoves. Oh, no...
> let's not mention how you conveniently changed the topic to suit your
> own self serving, egomaniac, purpose.
>
> I stand by what I said: If it doesn't pay off in 5 years, then you
> need to rethink your business plan. You're out of your league.

Yep, you are most certainly an idiot.

On May 5, 7:56�am, "Pete C." > wrote:
> sf wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 05 May 2008 03:14:54 GMT, "Pete C." >
> > wrote:
>
> > >sf wrote:
>
> > >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 10:08:44 -0500, "Pete C." >
> > >> wrote:
>
> > >> >sf wrote:
>
> > >> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 09:52:18 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> > >> >> wrote:
>
> > >> >> >"sf" <.> wrote in messagenews:fual14dsnmkg89cldj3q1vk8cn5j803o80@4ax .com...
> > >> >> >> On Fri, 02 May 2008 02:21:48 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
> > >> >> >> wrote:
>
> > >> >> >>>The most difficult problem is
> > >> >> >>>trying to replace the Seimens made screen for the control panel that is
> > >> >> >>>now
> > >> >> >>>obsolete.
>
> > >> >> >> Well, obsolete is the *main* problem. �Unless Seimens has taken a big
> > >> >> >> fall of late, they are highly regarded and completely reliable.
>
> > >> >> >When you spend $200,000, you don't want to hear obsolete five years later
> > >> >> >and need a new model at $25,000 plus programming. �The new models of display
> > >> >> >are going to crap too in a couple of years. This is for a display that would
> > >> >> >have cost about $1200 new.
>
> > >> >> Obsolete is in the eye of the beholder. �When you're talking about a
> > >> >> $200,000 model, you're talking about something meant to be used in a
> > >> >> commercial establishment.
> > >> >> 1. It might have paid for itself in 5 years, if it didn't then you
> > >> >> need to rethink your business plan.
> > >> >> 2. �Replacing it is part of your normal business expense if the newer,
> > >> >> fancier, model will do what you need done more cost effectively.
>
> > >> >You apparently know nothing of the investments or business models of
> > >> >machine shops and manufacturing in general. This type of equipment is
> > >> >expected to have a service life measured in decades, like 20 years
> > >> >minimum, and even then it is not thrown out, it is sold to smaller shops
> > >> >who will operate it for another decade or two.
>
> > >> >The huge manufactures producing millions of a given product can and do
> > >> >change equipment more frequently to maximize production speed. The tens
> > >> >of thousands of smaller manufactures and general machine shops where a
> > >> >machine may be producing a particular part for only a week or two before
> > >> >changing to something completely different don't have the luxury of
> > >> >optimizing for a single task.
>
> > >> >And, yes, I spent 5 or 6 years servicing CNC machines in a wide variety
> > >> >of shops, so I have some idea what I'm talking about.
>
> > >> Thanks. �You reinforced what I said.
>
> > >Yes, that you are an idiot.
>
> > LOLOL! �Never mind you're not talking about home stoves. �Oh, no...
> > let's not mention how you conveniently changed the topic to suit your
> > own self serving, egomaniac, purpose.
>
> > I stand by what I said: �If it doesn't pay off in 5 years, then you
> > need to rethink your business plan. �You're out of your league.
>
> Yep, you are most certainly an idiot.

What's really idiotic is to bring a CNC lathe into a discussion about
gas stoves... may as well compare a gas stove to the space shuttle...
but obviously you are into self agrandizement. No one on a cooking
group gives a rat's b-hind that you know a little something about
computer driven machine tools... which are actually no more complex
than a fax machine.