In article 0>,
Wayne Boatwright > wrote:

> Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 11:26:29a, Miche meant to say...
>
> > In article 0>,
> > Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
> >
> >> Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:44:57a, Miche meant to say...
> >>
> >> > In article 0>,
> >> > Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 11:47:33p, Miche meant to say...
> >> >>
> >> >> > In article 0>,
> >> >> > Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
> >> >> >> We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220
> >> >> >> volts, and each with a master breaker. It's an all electric
> >> >> >> home, so we have greater power demands than homes that use gas
> >> >> >> for heating, cooking, and heating water in lieu of electric. We
> >> >> >> could probably get by with one 200 amp panel, but I like the idea
> >> >> >> of being able to expand without involving major power changes.
> >> >> >> If we put in a pool and/or backyard spa, we will definitely use
> >> >> >> some of that additional capacity.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That's good thinking. And you don't have to turn the second
> >> >> > phase on until you need it.
> >> >>
> >> >> True, but the major decision was based on original installation cost
> >> >> vs. later addition. To add it later could run $3-5K, but
> >> >> incorporating it into the original construction cost only an
> >> >> addition $500.
> >> >
> >> > Even better thinking. How's your insulation? A bit of thought put
> >> > into that (and a bit of up-front cost) can save you a fortune later.
> >>
> >> We have 2" x 6" wall construction and the insulation rating in the
> >> walls is R-50 (don't know if that means a thing outside of the US).
> >
> > It doesn't.
>
> "R" ratings for insulation indicate the insulationi material's efficiency.
> What we have in our house is insulation at peak efficiency. Friends of
> ours have an older and smaller home and less insulation, and pay nearly
> twice what we do for summer cooling.;

Thank you.

> >> We don't have
> >> an attic (all vaulted ceilings), and the construction and insulation is
> >> the same. We do have a crawl space under the house, and the floors are
> >> insulated underneath at an R-30 rating.
> >>
> >> Since we live in the desert, winter temsps are not much of an issue,
> >> but our summer temps can reach near 120 degrees F.
> >
> > True enough, but insulation can also help keep the interior cool, thus
> > reducing the need for air conditioning, which in turn reduces power
> > needs.
>
> Yes, where we live insulation is really more important for the summer
> cooling than the winter heating. Where we move from in Ohio, it was just
> the opposite.

Bit of a change in mind set!

NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
unnecessary illness from cold and damp.

Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:18:53p, Miche meant to say...

> In article 0>,
> Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
>
>> Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 11:26:29a, Miche meant to say...
>>
>> > In article 0>,
>> > Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:44:57a, Miche meant to say...
>> >>
>> >> > In article 0>,
>> >> > Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Oh pshaw, on Sun 11 Nov 2007 11:47:33p, Miche meant to say...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > In article
>> >> >> > 0>,
>> >> >> > Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
>> >> >> >> We have a new home that has two 200 amp panels, both at 220
>> >> >> >> volts, and each with a master breaker. It's an all electric
>> >> >> >> home, so we have greater power demands than homes that use gas
>> >> >> >> for heating, cooking, and heating water in lieu of electric.
>> >> >> >> We could probably get by with one 200 amp panel, but I like
>> >> >> >> the idea of being able to expand without involving major power
>> >> >> >> changes. If we put in a pool and/or backyard spa, we will
>> >> >> >> definitely use some of that additional capacity.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That's good thinking. And you don't have to turn the second
>> >> >> > phase on until you need it.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> True, but the major decision was based on original installation
>> >> >> cost vs. later addition. To add it later could run $3-5K, but
>> >> >> incorporating it into the original construction cost only an
>> >> >> addition $500.
>> >> >
>> >> > Even better thinking. How's your insulation? A bit of thought
>> >> > put into that (and a bit of up-front cost) can save you a fortune
>> >> > later.
>> >>
>> >> We have 2" x 6" wall construction and the insulation rating in the
>> >> walls is R-50 (don't know if that means a thing outside of the US).
>> >
>> > It doesn't.
>>
>> "R" ratings for insulation indicate the insulationi material's
>> efficiency. What we have in our house is insulation at peak
>> efficiency. Friends of ours have an older and smaller home and less
>> insulation, and pay nearly twice what we do for summer cooling.;
>
> Thank you.
>
>> >> We don't have
>> >> an attic (all vaulted ceilings), and the construction and insulation
>> >> is the same. We do have a crawl space under the house, and the
>> >> floors are insulated underneath at an R-30 rating.
>> >>
>> >> Since we live in the desert, winter temsps are not much of an issue,
>> >> but our summer temps can reach near 120 degrees F.
>> >
>> > True enough, but insulation can also help keep the interior cool,
>> > thus reducing the need for air conditioning, which in turn reduces
>> > power needs.
>>
>> Yes, where we live insulation is really more important for the summer
>> cooling than the winter heating. Where we move from in Ohio, it was
>> just the opposite.
>
> Bit of a change in mind set!
>
> NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
> tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
> are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
> unnecessary illness from cold and damp.
>
> Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.
>
> Miche
>

Since I don't have a clue, Miche, is central heating and central cooling a
common or uncommon thing in NZ? Curious, also... What do the WHO
guidlines specify? What are the conditions typically found in homes there?

Yes, without proper insulation, heating and/or cooling costs can increase
dramatically.

--
Wayne Boatwright

(to e-mail me direct, replace cox dot net with gmail dot com)
__________________________________________________ ____________

OK, I'm weird ! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.

In article 0>,
Wayne Boatwright > wrote:

> Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:18:53p, Miche meant to say...

> > NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
> > tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
> > are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
> > unnecessary illness from cold and damp.
> >
> > Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.

>
> Since I don't have a clue, Miche, is central heating and central cooling a
> common or uncommon thing in NZ?

Unusual, yeah. I don't know a private house here that has it (or, if
they do have it, uses it -- most of the units still extant here date
from the '60s and early '70s and are oil-fired -- from before the oil
shock). IMO heat pumps (heat exchangers) don't count, as they tend ot
heat only one room/space.

> Curious, also... What do the WHO
> guidlines specify?

Couldn't find the guideline itself in a quick search; found the
following statement on a Statistics NZ website:

"The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends an indoor temperature of
at least 18 degrees Celsius, or 21 degrees if a home houses elderly,
young or disabled people. A third of New Zealand houses are below this
recommendation."

> What are the conditions typically found in homes there?

A lot of houses are cooler than that; if they're insulated at all it's
usually only the walls. There's a strong streak of "put a jersey on
rather than the heater", especially in poorer households, as they can't
necessarily afford to heat the house to WHO standards. Being
uninsulated just makes that harder, of course. (The "put a jersey on"
mentality is good from a conservation point of view but if the internal
temperature of the house is too low and/or the house is damp, it's not
going to do you any good healthwise.)

> Yes, without proper insulation, heating and/or cooling costs can increase
> dramatically.

Don't I know it. The insulation here is dreadful. When we buy a house
(we're currently renting) we're going to upgrade the insulation, as it's
more or less bound to be crap.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 02:37:06p, Miche meant to say...

> In article 0>,
> Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
>
>> Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:18:53p, Miche meant to say...
>
>> > NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
>> > tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
>> > are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
>> > unnecessary illness from cold and damp.
>> >
>> > Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.
>
>>
>> Since I don't have a clue, Miche, is central heating and central
>> cooling a common or uncommon thing in NZ?
>
> Unusual, yeah. I don't know a private house here that has it (or, if
> they do have it, uses it -- most of the units still extant here date
> from the '60s and early '70s and are oil-fired -- from before the oil
> shock). IMO heat pumps (heat exchangers) don't count, as they tend ot
> heat only one room/space.
>
>> Curious, also... What do the WHO guidlines specify?
>
> Couldn't find the guideline itself in a quick search; found the
> following statement on a Statistics NZ website:
>
> "The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends an indoor temperature of
> at least 18 degrees Celsius, or 21 degrees if a home houses elderly,
> young or disabled people. A third of New Zealand houses are below this
> recommendation."
>
>> What are the conditions typically found in homes there?
>
> A lot of houses are cooler than that; if they're insulated at all it's
> usually only the walls. There's a strong streak of "put a jersey on
> rather than the heater", especially in poorer households, as they can't
> necessarily afford to heat the house to WHO standards. Being
> uninsulated just makes that harder, of course. (The "put a jersey on"
> mentality is good from a conservation point of view but if the internal
> temperature of the house is too low and/or the house is damp, it's not
> going to do you any good healthwise.)
>
>> Yes, without proper insulation, heating and/or cooling costs can
>> increase dramatically.
>
> Don't I know it. The insulation here is dreadful. When we buy a house
> (we're currently renting) we're going to upgrade the insulation, as it's
> more or less bound to be crap.
>
> Miche
>

I think, in general, that the US has been "more advanced" than many
countries when it comes to insulation, heating, and cooling, although I'm
sure we have our share of sub-standard conditions in some areas. At least
I think the US became more proactive with these issues earlier. Adequate
central heating, for example, was not at all uncommon as early as the 1940s
or earlier. Insulation became an important issue in the late 1950s/early
1960s. I would hazard a guess that there are more homes in the US that
have central air conditioning than in any other country, but I could be
wrong about that. In our personal case, we tend to maintain a constant
interior temperature of 73-75 degrees F. year round. In colder US
climates, I think many people will let the winter temperature drop in the
house to the mid-60 degree mark. IIRC, when we lived in Ohio, we usually
kept our house at around 68 degrees F.

--
Wayne Boatwright

(to e-mail me direct, replace cox dot net with gmail dot com)
__________________________________________________ ____________

OK, I'm weird ! But I'm saving up to be eccentric.

In article 0>,
Wayne Boatwright > wrote:

> Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 02:37:06p, Miche meant to say...
>
> > In article 0>,
> > Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
> >
> >> Oh pshaw, on Mon 12 Nov 2007 01:18:53p, Miche meant to say...
> >
> >> > NZ'ers are really behind the times when it comes to insulation -- we
> >> > tend to have terribly badly insulated houses, resulting in homes that
> >> > are below WHO guidelines for internal temperature and a lot of
> >> > unnecessary illness from cold and damp.
> >> >
> >> > Also, they cost a hell of a lot to heat.
> >
> >>
> >> Since I don't have a clue, Miche, is central heating and central
> >> cooling a common or uncommon thing in NZ?
> >
> > Unusual, yeah. I don't know a private house here that has it (or, if
> > they do have it, uses it -- most of the units still extant here date
> > from the '60s and early '70s and are oil-fired -- from before the oil
> > shock). IMO heat pumps (heat exchangers) don't count, as they tend ot
> > heat only one room/space.
> >
> >> Curious, also... What do the WHO guidlines specify?
> >
> > Couldn't find the guideline itself in a quick search; found the
> > following statement on a Statistics NZ website:
> >
> > "The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends an indoor temperature of
> > at least 18 degrees Celsius, or 21 degrees if a home houses elderly,
> > young or disabled people. A third of New Zealand houses are below this
> > recommendation."
> >
> >> What are the conditions typically found in homes there?
> >
> > A lot of houses are cooler than that; if they're insulated at all it's
> > usually only the walls. There's a strong streak of "put a jersey on
> > rather than the heater", especially in poorer households, as they can't
> > necessarily afford to heat the house to WHO standards. Being
> > uninsulated just makes that harder, of course. (The "put a jersey on"
> > mentality is good from a conservation point of view but if the internal
> > temperature of the house is too low and/or the house is damp, it's not
> > going to do you any good healthwise.)
> >
> >> Yes, without proper insulation, heating and/or cooling costs can
> >> increase dramatically.
> >
> > Don't I know it. The insulation here is dreadful. When we buy a house
> > (we're currently renting) we're going to upgrade the insulation, as it's
> > more or less bound to be crap.
> >
>
> I think, in general, that the US has been "more advanced" than many
> countries when it comes to insulation, heating, and cooling, although I'm
> sure we have our share of sub-standard conditions in some areas. At least
> I think the US became more proactive with these issues earlier. Adequate
> central heating, for example, was not at all uncommon as early as the 1940s
> or earlier. Insulation became an important issue in the late 1950s/early
> 1960s. I would hazard a guess that there are more homes in the US that
> have central air conditioning than in any other country, but I could be
> wrong about that. In our personal case, we tend to maintain a constant
> interior temperature of 73-75 degrees F. year round. In colder US
> climates, I think many people will let the winter temperature drop in the
> house to the mid-60 degree mark. IIRC, when we lived in Ohio, we usually
> kept our house at around 68 degrees F.

68F is 20C, which is right where the WHO wants it. Perception here is
that houses in the US are "too hot" but that's just because ours are too
cold.

People are starting to get the message here as power prices go up,
though, and that can only be a good thing.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases