Hi all,

I'm cross-posting this to the food group and the support group because the
original conversation started in support but somehow it migrated to food.

In response to my posting what my mornings look like, Ozgirl suggested
adding about 5 gm of some type of grain carbs (rye crackers or similar) to
my 3 oz cheese + green veggie (either a head of romaine or a whole raw green
pepper) breakfast, on the theory that the extra carbs might turn off the
dawn phenomenon. (A head of romaine has about 2 gm net carbs, a whole green
pepper about 5.)

The last two mornings my FBG was too high (136, 126) to try this experiment,
but today at 118 I figured it would be OK. Here are the results, all
calculated times are from the END of the meal:

6:47 118 This is shortly after getting up.
7:21 120 This is right before breakfast (1/4 of a rye matzo (gross
carbs 6 gm, minus fiber .5 gm, net 5.5 gm), 3 oz cheddar, 1 raw green
pepper, 2 raw medium-sized celery stalks), finished the food 7:50, continued
drinking coffee as usual. Notes: 1) I ate all the matzo with some of the
green pepper prior to eating any of the cheese. 2) I started feeling
nauseous part-way through the meal, maybe about 3/4 of the way through the
cheese.
8:20 176 30 min
8:29 170 39 min
8:41 160 51 min
8:51 149 1 hour 1 min
9:01 178 1 hour 11 min.
9:05 151 retest after washing hands again, hope this means the 9:01
reading was a fluke
9:11 146 1 hour 21 min
9:23 130 1 hour 33 min
9:43 131 1 hour 53 min
9:50 128 2 hours. After this had sugarless gum.
10:23 123 2 hours 33 min
11:01 113 3 hours 11 min

Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to 176,
and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.

So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.

Comments welcome.

On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:56:22 -0700, "Ellen K."
> wrote:

>The last two mornings my FBG was too high (136, 126) to try this experiment,
>but today at 118 I figured it would be OK. Here are the results, all
>calculated times are from the END of the meal:
>
> 6:47 118 This is shortly after getting up.
> 7:21 120 This is right before breakfast (1/4 of a rye matzo (gross
>carbs 6 gm, minus fiber .5 gm, net 5.5 gm), 3 oz cheddar, 1 raw green
>pepper, 2 raw medium-sized celery stalks), finished the food 7:50, continued
>drinking coffee as usual. Notes: 1) I ate all the matzo with some of the
>green pepper prior to eating any of the cheese. 2) I started feeling
>nauseous part-way through the meal, maybe about 3/4 of the way through the
>cheese.
> 8:20 176 30 min
>Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
>breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to 176,
>and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.
>
>So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.
>
>Comments welcome.

Matzo crackers I have tried here have been very fast carbs - very
processed. They would be superspikers for me, whatever the carb/fiber
count. Rye matzos don't sound so bad, though - what do you think?

Maybe swapping the matzo for a smallish tomato? Or eating it with lots
of butter? (Mind you, the cheese should supply sufficient fat.)

You just need to keep dinging around until you find the carb count
that works for you. You know I said my limit is 6g? My sister's is 30!
We're upside-down with respect to tolerance; she can have almost no
carbs in the evening without spiking, I can pretty well eat what I
want.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm cross-posting this to the food group and the support group because the
> original conversation started in support but somehow it migrated to food.
>
> In response to my posting what my mornings look like, Ozgirl suggested
> adding about 5 gm of some type of grain carbs (rye crackers or similar) to
> my 3 oz cheese + green veggie (either a head of romaine or a whole raw
> green pepper) breakfast, on the theory that the extra carbs might turn off
> the dawn phenomenon. (A head of romaine has about 2 gm net carbs, a whole
> green pepper about 5.)
>
> The last two mornings my FBG was too high (136, 126) to try this
> experiment, but today at 118 I figured it would be OK. Here are the
> results, all calculated times are from the END of the meal:
>
> 6:47 118 This is shortly after getting up.
> 7:21 120 This is right before breakfast (1/4 of a rye matzo (gross
> carbs 6 gm, minus fiber .5 gm, net 5.5 gm), 3 oz cheddar, 1 raw green
> pepper, 2 raw medium-sized celery stalks), finished the food 7:50,
> continued drinking coffee as usual. Notes: 1) I ate all the matzo with
> some of the green pepper prior to eating any of the cheese. 2) I started
> feeling nauseous part-way through the meal, maybe about 3/4 of the way
> through the cheese.

I wonder if the nausea was your body telling you this was not good for you
to eat??

I eat a half a green pepper every day in my salad.


> 8:20 176 30 min
> 8:29 170 39 min
> 8:41 160 51 min
> 8:51 149 1 hour 1 min
> 9:01 178 1 hour 11 min.
> 9:05 151 retest after washing hands again, hope this means the 9:01
> reading was a fluke
> 9:11 146 1 hour 21 min
> 9:23 130 1 hour 33 min
> 9:43 131 1 hour 53 min
> 9:50 128 2 hours. After this had sugarless gum.
> 10:23 123 2 hours 33 min
> 11:01 113 3 hours 11 min
>
> Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
> breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to 176,
> and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.
>
> So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.
>
> Comments welcome.

Ellen,
Thank you very much for this post. These details you posted are very helpful
for me. Actually get to see the numbers!

I think you have less IR than I. So my numbers would likely be higher. I see
the double spike. I have no clue why.

BTW, I am increasing my treadmill times. I want to see what effect there
might be. I also want to see if I can work this in to be a constant and not
just a test.

Again, I really appreciate you sacrificing all those strips and sharing it
with all.

Michael

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:56:22 -0700, Ellen K. wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm cross-posting this to the food group and the support group because
> the original conversation started in support but somehow it migrated to
> food.
>
> In response to my posting what my mornings look like, Ozgirl suggested
> adding about 5 gm of some type of grain carbs (rye crackers or similar)
> to my 3 oz cheese + green veggie (either a head of romaine or a whole
> raw green pepper) breakfast, on the theory that the extra carbs might
> turn off the dawn phenomenon. (A head of romaine has about 2 gm net
> carbs, a whole green pepper about 5.)
>
> The last two mornings my FBG was too high (136, 126) to try this
> experiment, but today at 118 I figured it would be OK. Here are the
> results, all calculated times are from the END of the meal:
>
> 6:47 118 This is shortly after getting up. 7:21 120 This
> is right before breakfast (1/4 of a rye matzo (gross
> carbs 6 gm, minus fiber .5 gm, net 5.5 gm), 3 oz cheddar, 1 raw green
> pepper, 2 raw medium-sized celery stalks), finished the food 7:50,
> continued drinking coffee as usual. Notes: 1) I ate all the matzo with
> some of the green pepper prior to eating any of the cheese. 2) I
> started feeling nauseous part-way through the meal, maybe about 3/4 of
> the way through the cheese.
> 8:20 176 30 min
> 8:29 170 39 min
> 8:41 160 51 min
> 8:51 149 1 hour 1 min
> 9:01 178 1 hour 11 min.
> 9:05 151 retest after washing hands again, hope this means the
> 9:01
> reading was a fluke
> 9:11 146 1 hour 21 min
> 9:23 130 1 hour 33 min
> 9:43 131 1 hour 53 min
> 9:50 128 2 hours. After this had sugarless gum.
> 10:23 123 2 hours 33 min
> 11:01 113 3 hours 11 min
>
> Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
> breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to
> 176, and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.
>
> So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.
>
> Comments welcome.

FWIW - my breakfast: one small glass tomato juice (with morning meds)
followed by 2 eggs (poached) 2 slices bacon (microwaved) 1/2 double fiber
english muffin with margarine.

Ellen K. > wrote:
>Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
>breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to 176,
>and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.
>So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.
>Comments welcome.

What's the highest medically tolerated BG value for you to live without future
complications? From your other posts about Shabat bread, hand washing and
prayer recitation, I'd say your body is telling you that it can barely tolerate
any grains. Either you resign yourself to high BG values or give up grains in
all forms. I understand that as an observant Jew, this is difficult for you to
do. But, it's slightly heartbreaking to see you trying to bargain this much
with your body.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
>>breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to 176,
>>and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.
>>So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.
>>Comments welcome.
>
> What's the highest medically tolerated BG value for you to live without
> future
> complications?

According to several sources, damage starts at 140.

> From your other posts about Shabat bread, hand washing and
> prayer recitation, I'd say your body is telling you that it can barely
> tolerate
> any grains.

It's true that I don't tolerate grains well. Based on this morning's test,
I would say I can't tolerate them at all in the morning. However, late in
the day I can eat a low-carb tortilla (which does contain grain), (it has 10
gm carbs of which 7 are fiber, so 3 gm net carbs) with no problem.

> Either you resign yourself to high BG values or give up grains in
> all forms. I understand that as an observant Jew, this is difficult for
> you to
> do. But, it's slightly heartbreaking to see you trying to bargain this
> much
> with your body.

The half-a-rye-matzo for the sabbath meals does not do what the quarter did
this morning, but it doesn't seem to be completely benign either, although
it's a little hard to separate out the effects. For example, usually I go
to sleep earlier on Friday night than during the week, so more time elapses
until I check my FBG Saturday morning... so it may be higher just because
more time has elapsed, not because I ate the half a matzo the night before.
What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will still
count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about eating bread
on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb tortillas. I
need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what percentage of
such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five specified grains, e.g.
would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the same as oat bran???) count
the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat fiber counts the same as oat
flour I could create something that would meet both my religious and health
needs.

>
> Orlando

ray wrote:

> FWIW - my breakfast: one small glass tomato juice (with morning meds)
> followed by 2 eggs (poached) 2 slices bacon (microwaved) 1/2 double
> fiber english muffin with margarine.

And what are your readings after that breakfast?

I've taken to eating only about 350 calories worth of sausage in the last
few weeks. I love sausage, and it doesn't raise my BG. I'm sick of eggs at
the moment.

Please forgive me if this is presumptuous, but I always had the impression
that the dietary and other rules of Jewish observance were waived in cases
where health or humanitarian concerns were present. Pregnant women, et al?

You could have another try at the extra carbs but use veggies as the
total carbs. Do you like frittata? That's a nice way to have veggies,
protein and fat for brekky. IOW, test extra carbs a few times but from
different sources. If it fails after a few attempts then its highly
likely the morning rises aren't from DP not switching off. At that point
I would try a different protein instead of the cheese. but with the head
of romaine. If that doesn't work try 1/2 a head of romaine.. You might
also have to forget the fiber component at breakfast time and count
gross carbs. Another trick might be to try a couple of small sips of
juice when you first wake in the morning.

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...

On Tue, 07 Sep 2010 18:13:55 -0400, Janet wrote:

> ray wrote:
>
>> FWIW - my breakfast: one small glass tomato juice (with morning meds)
>> followed by 2 eggs (poached) 2 slices bacon (microwaved) 1/2 double
>> fiber english muffin with margarine.
>
> And what are your readings after that breakfast?
>
> I've taken to eating only about 350 calories worth of sausage in the
> last few weeks. I love sausage, and it doesn't raise my BG. I'm sick of
> eggs at the moment.

It's been quite some time since I found it necessary to check after every
meal. I can tell when my BG is high (I have an area on the heel of my
left foot that does not fail). That breakfast does not spike me much -
I'm quite confident it keeps me below 100. BTW - I've got a couple of
interesting variants for eggs - one is scrambled - with cottage cheese
and a dash or two of tobasco.

On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 09:05:55 +1000, Alan S wrote:

> On 7 Sep 2010 22:44:06 GMT, ray > wrote:
>
>
>>It's been quite some time since I found it necessary to check after
>>every meal. I can tell when my BG is high (I have an area on the heel of
>>my left foot that does not fail). That breakfast does not spike me much
>>- I'm quite confident it keeps me below 100. BTW - I've got a couple of
>>interesting variants for eggs - one is scrambled - with cottage cheese
>>and a dash or two of tobasco.
>
> I have no doubt that your calibrated left foot heel is very accurate.
> However, I used to be responsible for the RAAF's calibration
> laboratories and we found that even the most accurate equipment needed
> regular re-calibration checks.
>
> May I suggest the use of this technique to occasionally re-calibrate
> your left heel: http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php

I check it daily - it has never been wrong yet.


>
> :-)
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d & e; metformin 1500mg

On 9/7/2010 7:08 PM, ray wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 09:05:55 +1000, Alan S wrote:

>> I have no doubt that your calibrated left foot heel is very accurate.
>> However, I used to be responsible for the RAAF's calibration
>> laboratories and we found that even the most accurate equipment needed
>> regular re-calibration checks.
>>
>> May I suggest the use of this technique to occasionally re-calibrate
>> your left heel: http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php
>
> I check it daily - it has never been wrong yet.

Given that the meter you use for comparison is 100% ACCURATE.

Ellen K. > wrote:
>What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will still
>count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about eating bread
>on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb tortillas. I
>need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what percentage of
>such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five specified grains, e.g.
>would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the same as oat bran???) count
>the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat fiber counts the same as oat
>flour I could create something that would meet both my religious and health
>needs.

I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that you
compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider another
religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a sabbath blessing
will neither make you a better person nor ensure your standing with Hashem.

Orlando

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..

>
> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that you
> compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider another
> religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a sabbath
> blessing
> will neither make you a better person nor ensure your standing with
> Hashem.

I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
that believes what Judaism believes.

I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.

My religion does not require me to compromise my health, on the contrary.
Saving a life takes precedence over all other requirements.

Please also see my post to Janet in this thread.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will still
>>count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about eating bread
>>on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb tortillas. I
>>need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what percentage of
>>such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five specified grains, e.g.
>>would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the same as oat bran???) count
>>the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat fiber counts the same as oat
>>flour I could create something that would meet both my religious and
>>health
>>needs.
>
> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that you
> compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider another
> religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a sabbath
> blessing
> will neither make you a better person nor ensure your standing with
> Hashem.
>
> Orlando

Julie Bove > wrote:
>I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
>that believes what Judaism believes.
>I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
>debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.

If a poor woman is trapped by a specific flavor of Jewish legalism, you bet I'm
going to say something, Christian that I am. She deserves better, a more
merciful conception of God that understands her dietary limitations and does
not impose arbitrary rules upon her. The rule of having to eat a marble-sized
piece of bread before one is "worthy" of reciting an age-old blessing over a
meal is ludicrous!

Orlando

It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to be
waived.

The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a certain
timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as bread, and
since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to find a way to be
able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a sufficient quantity to
be able to say those prayers, at least at the sabbath meals, because I find
that enhances my sabbath experience.

I did not raise this issue to the group, I feel it is not really in place
here. I bring my DIABETES questions here, not any religious questions I
might have.

What happened was that since I had briefly discussed this previously with
Wendy, in a post to her I mentioned as an *aside* to the breakfast
discussion that it would be great if the 1/4 matzo worked for breakfast
because then I would have a use for all the half matzos left over from the
sabbath meals. Another poster jumped into the conversation and made a
number of inaccurate statements which I felt obliged to correct, resulting
in several more posts.

At this point I would be much happier to have omitted the aside. As noted
above, this is a DIABETES group. Everyone here has his or her own set of
beliefs and practices, and IMO that is as it should be.

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> Please forgive me if this is presumptuous, but I always had the impression
> that the dietary and other rules of Jewish observance were waived in cases
> where health or humanitarian concerns were present. Pregnant women, et al?
>
>

Ellen K. > wrote:
>My religion does not require me to compromise my health, on the contrary.
>Saving a life takes precedence over all other requirements.
>Please also see my post to Janet in this thread.
If this were true, why are you agonizing over getting your rabbi's permission
regarding a marble-sized piece of sabbath bread? Surely, there are conservative
and reform Jews who do not depend on rabbinical halachic interpretations as
justifications for nearly every quotidian action. Perhaps, you should align
yourself with a more liberal sect of Judaism.

Orlando

Ellen K. > wrote:
>It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to be
>waived.

So what's troubling you?

>The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a certain
>timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as bread, and
>since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to find a way to be
>able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a sufficient quantity to
>be able to say those prayers, at least at the sabbath meals, because I find
>that enhances my sabbath experience.

Regardless of what any rabbi tells you, God understands your intent behind your
prayers and will not consider them meaningless if they are said without bread.
I am not blaspheming your religion by saying this. On the contrary, I'm
encouraging you to become more mystical and less legalistic.

>I did not raise this issue to the group, I feel it is not really in place
>here. I bring my DIABETES questions here, not any religious questions I
>might have.

I only responded to this issue because you are clearly agitated about the nexus
between religious observance and your diabetic needs. No one is going to punish
you if you say sabbath prayers without eating something that qualifies as
bread.

>What happened was that since I had briefly discussed this previously with
>Wendy, in a post to her I mentioned as an *aside* to the breakfast
>discussion that it would be great if the 1/4 matzo worked for breakfast
>because then I would have a use for all the half matzos left over from the
>sabbath meals. Another poster jumped into the conversation and made a
>number of inaccurate statements which I felt obliged to correct, resulting
>in several more posts.

Is there any way for you to celebrate the sabbath with more people so that
there's less leftover bread?

>At this point I would be much happier to have omitted the aside. As noted
>above, this is a DIABETES group. Everyone here has his or her own set of
>beliefs and practices, and IMO that is as it should be.

If someone's beliefs and practices included raping, killing or maming, I'd
speak out against them. In your case, I believe that this particularly
legalistic issue is inhibiting your enjoyment of what should be meaningful
Jewish prayer and sabbath celebration.

Orlando

Christians get to define Christianity, Jews get to define Judaism.

I'm sure you wouldn't like me to criticize your religion from the point of
view of mine.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Julie Bove > wrote:
>>I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
>>that believes what Judaism believes.
>>I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
>>debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.
>
> If a poor woman is trapped by a specific flavor of Jewish legalism, you
> bet I'm
> going to say something, Christian that I am. She deserves better, a more
> merciful conception of God that understands her dietary limitations and
> does
> not impose arbitrary rules upon her. The rule of having to eat a
> marble-sized
> piece of bread before one is "worthy" of reciting an age-old blessing over
> a
> meal is ludicrous!
>
> Orlando

Ellen K. > wrote:
>Christians get to define Christianity, Jews get to define Judaism.

Not quite. Jesus was, like it or not, a Jew. Therefore, his critiques of Jewish
legalism should count as coming from an insider.

>I'm sure you wouldn't like me to criticize your religion from the point of
>view of mine.

I actually wouldn't mind that. Ironically, I'm defending both your desire to
say meaningful sabbath prayers and your need not to accompany them with bread.

Orlando

"Boomer" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm cross-posting this to the food group and the support group because
>> the original conversation started in support but somehow it migrated to
>> food.
>>
>> In response to my posting what my mornings look like, Ozgirl suggested
>> adding about 5 gm of some type of grain carbs (rye crackers or similar)
>> to my 3 oz cheese + green veggie (either a head of romaine or a whole raw
>> green pepper) breakfast, on the theory that the extra carbs might turn
>> off the dawn phenomenon. (A head of romaine has about 2 gm net carbs, a
>> whole green pepper about 5.)
>>
>> The last two mornings my FBG was too high (136, 126) to try this
>> experiment, but today at 118 I figured it would be OK. Here are the
>> results, all calculated times are from the END of the meal:
>>
>> 6:47 118 This is shortly after getting up.
>> 7:21 120 This is right before breakfast (1/4 of a rye matzo (gross
>> carbs 6 gm, minus fiber .5 gm, net 5.5 gm), 3 oz cheddar, 1 raw green
>> pepper, 2 raw medium-sized celery stalks), finished the food 7:50,
>> continued drinking coffee as usual. Notes: 1) I ate all the matzo with
>> some of the green pepper prior to eating any of the cheese. 2) I started
>> feeling nauseous part-way through the meal, maybe about 3/4 of the way
>> through the cheese.
>
> I wonder if the nausea was your body telling you this was not good for you
> to eat??
>

That's one way to put it.

I know some people throw up when they take the GTT, so in view also of the
timing I would say that was probably when my BG spiked up.

> I eat a half a green pepper every day in my salad.
>

Right now I find myself craving it for breakfast, usually it's not quite
enough for the cheese, I've been adding a stalk or two of celery at the end.
So the past few days I moved the romaine to lunch.

>
>> 8:20 176 30 min
>> 8:29 170 39 min
>> 8:41 160 51 min
>> 8:51 149 1 hour 1 min
>> 9:01 178 1 hour 11 min.
>> 9:05 151 retest after washing hands again, hope this means the
>> 9:01 reading was a fluke
>> 9:11 146 1 hour 21 min
>> 9:23 130 1 hour 33 min
>> 9:43 131 1 hour 53 min
>> 9:50 128 2 hours. After this had sugarless gum.
>> 10:23 123 2 hours 33 min
>> 11:01 113 3 hours 11 min
>>
>> Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
>> breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to
>> 176, and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.
>>
>> So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.
>>
>> Comments welcome.
>
> Ellen,
> Thank you very much for this post. These details you posted are very
> helpful for me. Actually get to see the numbers!
>
> I think you have less IR than I. So my numbers would likely be higher. I
> see the double spike. I have no clue why.
>

I don't know if it was a double spike or just some kind of glitch. I had a
lot of trouble getting a proper blood drop for the 9:01 one, so when I saw
that number I decided to wash my hands again and retest right away. Given
that four minutes later it was 27 points lower, I'm leaning to the glitch
theory.

> BTW, I am increasing my treadmill times. I want to see what effect there
> might be. I also want to see if I can work this in to be a constant and
> not just a test.

Great, please post what you learn.

>
> Again, I really appreciate you sacrificing all those strips and sharing it
> with all.
>

Well, I have gotten a lot of help from folks here, so if what I posted helps
someone else, I'm happy.

> Michael

"Janet" > wrote in message
...
> ray wrote:
>
>> FWIW - my breakfast: one small glass tomato juice (with morning meds)
>> followed by 2 eggs (poached) 2 slices bacon (microwaved) 1/2 double
>> fiber english muffin with margarine.
>
> And what are your readings after that breakfast?
>
> I've taken to eating only about 350 calories worth of sausage in the last
> few weeks. I love sausage, and it doesn't raise my BG. I'm sick of eggs at
> the moment.
Always good to have a Plan B.

Christians get to define Christianity, Jews get to define Judaism.

I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I criticized your religion from the point
of view of mine.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>It is not required to eat bread at all, so there is no rule that needs to
>>be
>>waived.
>
> So what's troubling you?
>
>>The issue is that certain prayers are only said if one eats within a
>>certain
>>timeframe a defined minimum quantity of something qualifying as bread, and
>>since I find those prayers very meaningful, I am trying to find a way to
>>be
>>able to eat something that qualifies as bread, in a sufficient quantity to
>>be able to say those prayers, at least at the sabbath meals, because I
>>find
>>that enhances my sabbath experience.
>
> Regardless of what any rabbi tells you, God understands your intent behind
> your
> prayers and will not consider them meaningless if they are said without
> bread.
> I am not blaspheming your religion by saying this. On the contrary, I'm
> encouraging you to become more mystical and less legalistic.
>
>>I did not raise this issue to the group, I feel it is not really in place
>>here. I bring my DIABETES questions here, not any religious questions I
>>might have.
>
> I only responded to this issue because you are clearly agitated about the
> nexus
> between religious observance and your diabetic needs. No one is going to
> punish
> you if you say sabbath prayers without eating something that qualifies as
> bread.
>
>>What happened was that since I had briefly discussed this previously with
>>Wendy, in a post to her I mentioned as an *aside* to the breakfast
>>discussion that it would be great if the 1/4 matzo worked for breakfast
>>because then I would have a use for all the half matzos left over from the
>>sabbath meals. Another poster jumped into the conversation and made a
>>number of inaccurate statements which I felt obliged to correct, resulting
>>in several more posts.
>
> Is there any way for you to celebrate the sabbath with more people so that
> there's less leftover bread?
>
>>At this point I would be much happier to have omitted the aside. As noted
>>above, this is a DIABETES group. Everyone here has his or her own set of
>>beliefs and practices, and IMO that is as it should be.
>
> If someone's beliefs and practices included raping, killing or maming, I'd
> speak out against them. In your case, I believe that this particularly
> legalistic issue is inhibiting your enjoyment of what should be meaningful
> Jewish prayer and sabbath celebration.
>
> Orlando

I've raised the carbs already by switching from romaine to green pepper
(roughly net 2 to net 5), and the past two days I even added a couple stalks
of celery.

What's your theory behind a different protein+fat rather than the cheese?

"Ozgirl" > wrote in message
...
> You could have another try at the extra carbs but use veggies as the total
> carbs. Do you like frittata? That's a nice way to have veggies, protein
> and fat for brekky. IOW, test extra carbs a few times but from different
> sources. If it fails after a few attempts then its highly likely the
> morning rises aren't from DP not switching off. At that point I would try
> a different protein instead of the cheese. but with the head of romaine.
> If that doesn't work try 1/2 a head of romaine.. You might also have to
> forget the fiber component at breakfast time and count gross carbs.
> Another trick might be to try a couple of small sips of juice when you
> first wake in the morning.
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> ...
>
>

Trust me, you would mind.

Please stop this line of conversation.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>Christians get to define Christianity, Jews get to define Judaism.
>
> Not quite. Jesus was, like it or not, a Jew. Therefore, his critiques of
> Jewish
> legalism should count as coming from an insider.
>
>>I'm sure you wouldn't like me to criticize your religion from the point of
>>view of mine.
>
> I actually wouldn't mind that. Ironically, I'm defending both your desire
> to
> say meaningful sabbath prayers and your need not to accompany them with
> bread.
>
> Orlando

I don't recall asking your opinion as to what religion I should practice.

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
.. .
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>My religion does not require me to compromise my health, on the contrary.
>>Saving a life takes precedence over all other requirements.
>>Please also see my post to Janet in this thread.
> If this were true, why are you agonizing over getting your rabbi's
> permission
> regarding a marble-sized piece of sabbath bread? Surely, there are
> conservative
> and reform Jews who do not depend on rabbinical halachic interpretations
> as
> justifications for nearly every quotidian action. Perhaps, you should
> align
> yourself with a more liberal sect of Judaism.
>
> Orlando

Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
> Ellen K. > wrote:
> >What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will
> >still count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about
> >eating bread on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb
> >tortillas. I need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what
> >percentage of such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five
> >specified grains, e.g. would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the
> >same as oat bran???) count the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat
> >fiber counts the same as oat flour I could create something that would
> >meet both my religious and health needs.
>
> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that
> you compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider
> another religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a
> sabbath blessing will neither make you a better person nor ensure your
> standing with Hashem.

Nor give you a longer life in which to do His good work. I think Judaism,
and most religions, make exceptions for people who are sick.

--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ http://anymarine.com/
http://www.specialops.org/ http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
news
> I've raised the carbs already by switching from romaine to green
> pepper (roughly net 2 to net 5), and the past two days I even added a
> couple stalks of celery.
>
> What's your theory behind a different protein+fat rather than the
> cheese?

Nothing other than trying all angles, lol. Who knows, you might do
better with eggs than cheese, or not...

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
.. .
> Ellen K. > wrote:
>>My religion does not require me to compromise my health, on the contrary.
>>Saving a life takes precedence over all other requirements.
>>Please also see my post to Janet in this thread.
> If this were true, why are you agonizing over getting your rabbi's
> permission
> regarding a marble-sized piece of sabbath bread? Surely, there are
> conservative
> and reform Jews who do not depend on rabbinical halachic interpretations
> as
> justifications for nearly every quotidian action. Perhaps, you should
> align
> yourself with a more liberal sect of Judaism.

How very rude!

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
. ..
> Julie Bove > wrote:
>>I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
>>that believes what Judaism believes.
>>I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
>>debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.
>
> If a poor woman is trapped by a specific flavor of Jewish legalism, you
> bet I'm
> going to say something, Christian that I am. She deserves better, a more
> merciful conception of God that understands her dietary limitations and
> does
> not impose arbitrary rules upon her. The rule of having to eat a
> marble-sized
> piece of bread before one is "worthy" of reciting an age-old blessing over
> a
> meal is ludicrous!

Trapped? How very rude!

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
> Trust me, you would mind.
>
> Please stop this line of conversation.

Yes indeed!

"Nick Cramer" > wrote in message
...
> Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
>> Ellen K. > wrote:
>> >What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will
>> >still count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about
>> >eating bread on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb
>> >tortillas. I need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what
>> >percentage of such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five
>> >specified grains, e.g. would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the
>> >same as oat bran???) count the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat
>> >fiber counts the same as oat flour I could create something that would
>> >meet both my religious and health needs.
>>
>> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that
>> you compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider
>> another religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a
>> sabbath blessing will neither make you a better person nor ensure your
>> standing with Hashem.
>
> Nor give you a longer life in which to do His good work. I think Judaism,
> and most religions, make exceptions for people who are sick.
>

Nick,

Several people have now completely misinterpreted everything I've written
about this situation. I would really appreciate if you -- and anyone
else -- would read what *I* wrote, rather than responding to the
misstatements of others. That way I don't have to keep explaining myself
repeatedly. Please see my post to Janet of earlier this evening.

Thanks and best wishes for the coming year,

Ellen

> --
> Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
> families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ http://anymarine.com/
> http://www.specialops.org/ http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
> You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

"Ozgirl" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
> news
>> I've raised the carbs already by switching from romaine to green pepper
>> (roughly net 2 to net 5), and the past two days I even added a couple
>> stalks of celery.
>>
>> What's your theory behind a different protein+fat rather than the cheese?
>
> Nothing other than trying all angles, lol. Who knows, you might do better
> with eggs than cheese, or not...
>

I must say, I have found it interesting that several people have commented
"That's a lot of cheese", but if someone posts that they ate three eggs or
three ounces of meat, nobody says "That's a lot of eggs" or "That's a lot of
meat".

I think eggs would be fine, but as noted elsewhere I would like to save them
for the bedtime snack. I'm not up for meat at breakfast but maybe after the
holidays I will try fish. My Italian sausages are likely out because being
soy-based they contain carbs, I think 6 gm.

Thanks again for your engagement on this issue.

And who knows, maybe it will just sort of cure itself after a bit longer on
the low-carb regimen!

"Nicky" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 11:56:22 -0700, "Ellen K."
> > wrote:
>
>>The last two mornings my FBG was too high (136, 126) to try this
>>experiment,
>>but today at 118 I figured it would be OK. Here are the results, all
>>calculated times are from the END of the meal:
>>
>> 6:47 118 This is shortly after getting up.
>> 7:21 120 This is right before breakfast (1/4 of a rye matzo (gross
>>carbs 6 gm, minus fiber .5 gm, net 5.5 gm), 3 oz cheddar, 1 raw green
>>pepper, 2 raw medium-sized celery stalks), finished the food 7:50,
>>continued
>>drinking coffee as usual. Notes: 1) I ate all the matzo with some of the
>>green pepper prior to eating any of the cheese. 2) I started feeling
>>nauseous part-way through the meal, maybe about 3/4 of the way through the
>>cheese.
>> 8:20 176 30 min
>>Based on the above I will not be including any grain carbs in future
>>breakfasts. With just the cheese and veggies I would NEVER get up to 176,
>>and usually by 90 minutes I am at or below the pre-breakfast value.
>>
>>So, valuable experiment, I learned more about how my body works.
>>
>>Comments welcome.
>
> Matzo crackers I have tried here have been very fast carbs - very
> processed. They would be superspikers for me, whatever the carb/fiber
> count. Rye matzos don't sound so bad, though - what do you think?
>

The ones I have are made from whole wheat, whole rye, and water. Not the
white flour ones most people are familiar with.

> Maybe swapping the matzo for a smallish tomato? Or eating it with lots
> of butter? (Mind you, the cheese should supply sufficient fat.)
>

Yes, the cheese I am eating is full fat (per ounce 80 calories of the 100
are from fat), I don't think the meal needs any more fat.

I could try adding some other vegetable, maybe after the holidays.

> You just need to keep dinging around until you find the carb count
> that works for you. You know I said my limit is 6g? My sister's is 30!
> We're upside-down with respect to tolerance; she can have almost no
> carbs in the evening without spiking, I can pretty well eat what I
> want.
>

I also have a friend who can't have carbs in the evening but does fine with
them in the morning. Different strokes and all that.

Thanks very much for your thoughts.

> Nicky.
> T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
> D&E, 150ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26

"Ellen K." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ozgirl" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Ellen K." > wrote in message
>> news
>>> I've raised the carbs already by switching from romaine to green
>>> pepper (roughly net 2 to net 5), and the past two days I even added
>>> a couple stalks of celery.
>>>
>>> What's your theory behind a different protein+fat rather than the
>>> cheese?
>>
>> Nothing other than trying all angles, lol. Who knows, you might do
>> better with eggs than cheese, or not...
>>
>
> I must say, I have found it interesting that several people have
> commented "That's a lot of cheese", but if someone posts that they ate
> three eggs or three ounces of meat, nobody says "That's a lot of eggs"
> or "That's a lot of meat".

I don't know about anyone else but 3 ounces of cheese at a time is not
something I would like. I can easily eat 3 eggs though. Its the texture,
the fat etc. Plus past experience with cheese and migraines is another
deterrent.

"Ellen K." > wrote:
> "Nick Cramer" > wrote in message
> > Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
> >> Ellen K. > wrote:
> >> >What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will
> >> >still count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about
> >> >eating bread on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the
> >> >low-carb tortillas. I need to get clearer on a few technical issues
> >> >such as what percentage of such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of
> >> >the five specified grains, e.g. would "oat fiber" (anybody know if
> >> >this is the same as oat bran???) count the same as oat flour, etc. I
> >> >think if oat fiber counts the same as oat flour I could create
> >> >something that would meet both my religious and health needs.
> >>
> >> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that
> >> you compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider
> >> another religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a
> >> sabbath blessing will neither make you a better person nor ensure your
> >> standing with Hashem.
> >
> > Nor give you a longer life in which to do His good work. I think
> > Judaism, and most religions, make exceptions for people who are sick.

> Nick,
>
> Several people have now completely misinterpreted everything I've written
> about this situation. I would really appreciate if you -- and anyone
> else -- would read what *I* wrote, rather than responding to the
> misstatements of others. That way I don't have to keep explaining
> myself repeatedly. Please see my post to Janet of earlier this evening.
>
> Thanks and best wishes for the coming year,

I read your earlier post to Janet, Ellen. What I see is that you're having
difficulty accepting the restrictions that your diabetes is having on your
partaking in and enjoyment of your religion. Only you, with whatever
guidance you find appropriate, can decide that.

L'shanah tovah,

--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ http://anymarine.com/
http://www.specialops.org/ http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

On 9/7/2010 11:04 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> Julie > wrote:
>> I don't see how you can even say that! AFAIK, there is no other religion
>> that believes what Judaism believes.
>> I myself do not believe in any form of religion whatever and don't wish to
>> debate that here or anywhere else. We all believe what we believe.
>
> If a poor woman is trapped by a specific flavor of Jewish legalism, you bet I'm
> going to say something, Christian that I am. She deserves better, a more
> merciful conception of God that understands her dietary limitations and does
> not impose arbitrary rules upon her. The rule of having to eat a marble-sized
> piece of bread before one is "worthy" of reciting an age-old blessing over a
> meal is ludicrous!
>
> Orlando

The rules that Ellen has chosen to follow are not G-d's rules. They are
rules made up by men who believed they were interpreting G-d's
commandments. Ellen chooses which of these interpretations she finds
comfort in.

Not all Jews believe as she does.

--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.

In alt.support.diabetes outsider > wrote:
> On 9/7/2010 7:08 PM, ray wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 Sep 2010 09:05:55 +1000, Alan S wrote:

>>> I have no doubt that your calibrated left foot heel is very accurate.
>>> However, I used to be responsible for the RAAF's calibration
>>> laboratories and we found that even the most accurate equipment needed
>>> regular re-calibration checks.
>>>
>>> May I suggest the use of this technique to occasionally re-calibrate
>>> your left heel: http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php
>>
>> I check it daily - it has never been wrong yet.

> Given that the meter you use for comparison is 100% ACCURATE.

There's no such thing as 100% accuracy in any measuring
instrument. Fortunately it's not necessary in order to perform a
calibration.

--
Chris Malcolm

On 9/8/2010 12:33 AM, Nick Cramer wrote:
> Orlando Enrique > wrote:
>> Ellen > wrote:
>>> What I am thinking to try next is to come up with a recipe that will
>>> still count as bread for the purposes discussed in the thread about
>>> eating bread on the sabbath, but have the same BG effect as the low-carb
>>> tortillas. I need to get clearer on a few technical issues such as what
>>> percentage of such a recipe has to be FLOUR from one of the five
>>> specified grains, e.g. would "oat fiber" (anybody know if this is the
>>> same as oat bran???) count the same as oat flour, etc. I think if oat
>>> fiber counts the same as oat flour I could create something that would
>>> meet both my religious and health needs.
>>
>> I don't know how else to say this. If your religion even suggests that
>> you compromise your health for a mere ritual, I suggest you consider
>> another religion. Whether or not you eat bread before pronouncing a
>> sabbath blessing will neither make you a better person nor ensure your
>> standing with Hashem.
>
> Nor give you a longer life in which to do His good work. I think Judaism,
> and most religions, make exceptions for people who are sick.
>

The problem here is that in order to say the blessing on bread and to
say the grace after meals, which on the Sabbath is a big part of the
celebration, her rabbi declared she has to eat a certain amount of
bread. She doesn't have to eat the bread, but she can't partake in these
prayers if she doesn't eat it.

I don't think it's Ellen's problem as much as it's a rabbi who is
somewhat clueless about dispensations for these kinds of things.
Wherever he found the rules about the size of pieces of bread that
qualify for the blessing, he could also have found something about
making the blessings without bread if there is an illness involved, but
he didn't.

This is how she chooses to practice her religion. If she doesn't eat the
bread and says the prayers, she will have considered herself as having
committed a sin.

Let's leave it, please.
--
Janet Wilder
Way-the-heck-south Texas
Spelling doesn't count. Cooking does.