Hi all:
I've been considering the purchase of an All Clad roasting pan. I do not
want non stick ... so I am limited to the Stainless Steel product. I
know that they come in two sizes : 16 X 13 X 3 inches and 14 X 11 X
2-3/4 inches.

I have not seen these in person and wonder which size makes more sense
for me to buy. Here is my scenario: I generally roast chickens or pork
but I think with my parents getting older, I will be the one to make
turkey in the future. This year I will be making a turkey for seven to
nine people and I would like to choose a roasting pan that would be a
suitable size for turkey but not so oversized for non turkey roasting.
I am unsure about turkey sizing..... never cooked one before.... so how
large a turkey would fit each roaster?

I know some of you feel that spending money on expensive cookware is
frivolous but I love the process and beautiful tools as much as the end
product My question is sincere. Do you think that the larger sized
pan would only be useful periodically for turkey days or should I get
the larger one just in case.

Sincere thanks .... you have given me excellent advice in the past.

Aileen in the freezing North

Aileen Sharma wrote:
> Hi all:
> I've been considering the purchase of an All Clad roasting pan. I do not
> want non stick ... so I am limited to the Stainless Steel product. I
> know that they come in two sizes : 16 X 13 X 3 inches and 14 X 11 X
> 2-3/4 inches.
>
> I have not seen these in person and wonder which size makes more sense
> for me to buy. Here is my scenario: I generally roast chickens or pork
> but I think with my parents getting older, I will be the one to make
> turkey in the future. This year I will be making a turkey for seven to
> nine people and I would like to choose a roasting pan that would be a
> suitable size for turkey but not so oversized for non turkey roasting.
> I am unsure about turkey sizing..... never cooked one before.... so how
> large a turkey would fit each roaster?
>
> I know some of you feel that spending money on expensive cookware is
> frivolous but I love the process and beautiful tools as much as the end
> product My question is sincere. Do you think that the larger sized
> pan would only be useful periodically for turkey days or should I get
> the larger one just in case.
>
> Sincere thanks .... you have given me excellent advice in the past.
>
> Aileen in the freezing North
>
>
Personally, I'd get the one that's best suited to your every day cooking
style. For my turkey, I use one of those disposable aluminum pans from
the stupidmarket. No muss - no fuss - no cleanup. YMMV

I'm not sure it makes sense to pay an All-Clad price for a roasting
pan. Pots and pans, yes, you're concerned about heat transfer, and so
the nature of the metal etc is very important, but when roasting a
bird the meat is up on a rack (I recommend a v-shaped one, as does
Cook's Illustrated) and not in contact with any metal.

Stepping away from All-Clad may allow you to afford a larger roast pan
in another brand. How large? Go to a grocery store and look at the
size of turkeys.

If you really want a smaller All-Clad for your regular use (and I
still question choosing All-Clad for a roasting pan), the smaller one
will probably sit comfortably inside the larger one on the shelf. So
while you'd need extra inches to accommodate the larger pan, it's not
all wasted space.

IMO, of course...

Frank Lynch
The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page is at:
http://www.samueljohnson.com/

"Frank Lynch" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not sure it makes sense to pay an All-Clad price for a roasting
> pan. Pots and pans, yes, you're concerned about heat transfer, and so
> the nature of the metal etc is very important, but when roasting a
> bird the meat is up on a rack (I recommend a v-shaped one, as does
> Cook's Illustrated) and not in contact with any metal.
>
I've cooked a lot of turkeys, as did my mother, in one of those blue
speckled enamel roasters. Or an inexpensive nonstick aluminum roaster works
well also. Why does it need to be thick and fancy? It's just going in the
oven...

del

I think the smaller 11 X 14 All-Clad will accomodate upto a12 pound bird, and
the recommended amount is one pound per person. With a larger pan, and a
smaller piece of meat, you risk the pan drippings drying on the bottom and
burning. A mess to clean up, and no sauce or gravy from the drippings after.

Why not get the Anolon Commercial Clad one. At 15" long it's a medium size
between the two, and fully clad, unlike the All-Clad. It's about $99 and a $20
GC back from Amazon right now, plus they have a free Faberware 3 qt. saucepan
offer. They also had an Anolon money back promo too, I think. You might also
get it from potsandpans.com. They were giving a free stainless Anolon 14" wok
with Anolon purchase before. Not sure if it's still in effect.

You can do search for the best prices on froogle.com. If you're near a
Bloomies, they had the smaller 14" All-Clad stainless, with a free rack, mitts
and spice rubs, and roasting book I think, for $149. HTH ;-).

Hi all:
Thanks for all the input.
I will now weigh the info and make my final decision.
Sincere thanks, Aileen

Frank Lynch > wrote in
:

> I'm not sure it makes sense to pay an All-Clad price for a roasting
> pan. Pots and pans, yes, you're concerned about heat transfer, and so
> the nature of the metal etc is very important, but when roasting a
> bird the meat is up on a rack (I recommend a v-shaped one, as does
> Cook's Illustrated) and not in contact with any metal.
>
> Stepping away from All-Clad may allow you to afford a larger roast pan
> in another brand. How large? Go to a grocery store and look at the
> size of turkeys.
>
> If you really want a smaller All-Clad for your regular use (and I
> still question choosing All-Clad for a roasting pan), the smaller one
> will probably sit comfortably inside the larger one on the shelf. So
> while you'd need extra inches to accommodate the larger pan, it's not
> all wasted space.
>
> IMO, of course...
>
> Frank Lynch
> The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page is at:
> http://www.samueljohnson.com/

A few years back I purchased the smaller All-Clad roasting pan from
outletsonline for much less than list price. It is a wonderful pan! It
easily accomodates a small turky, the largest chicken you might roast, or
a duck. Best of all, it is very sturdy and has a heavy bottom (steel
only, no cladding). I love being able to put it on the stovetop and make
the gravy directly from the pan-drippings (yum). You can't do that with
a disposable aluminum roasting pan, or even one of those blue-speckled
enamel things (too thin, would have hot spots). If you try this with an
aluminum roasting pan there is a good chance it will warp. (Ask me how I
know.) To be honest, Cook's Illustrated is now claiming that All-Clad
roasting pans can warp when used on the stove-top. All I can say is that
I have never had that problem.

I got the small All-Clad roasting pan after going through a few
generations of aluminum roasters (mostly excellent heavy pans purchased
at restaurant supply stores) and using it was a revelation. Highly
recommended.

Debbie

P.S. Just to prove that I don't think that expensive cookware is always
the answer, I will also point out that I am doing more and more baking
and roasting on heavy aluminum half-sheet pans, which run about $10
apiece. The right tool can be very affordable.

--
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Debbie Deutsch wrote:

<snip>
>
> A few years back I purchased the smaller All-Clad roasting pan from
> outletsonline for much less than list price. It is a wonderful pan! It
> easily accomodates a small turky, the largest chicken you might roast, or
> a duck. Best of all, it is very sturdy and has a heavy bottom (steel
> only, no cladding). I love being able to put it on the stovetop and make
> the gravy directly from the pan-drippings (yum). You can't do that with
> a disposable aluminum roasting pan, or even one of those blue-speckled
<snip>

Sure you can. Plus the bottom shouldn't really matter in this case as
the bird should be on a rack anyhow.

--
Steve

Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Steve Calvin > wrote in
s.com:

> Debbie Deutsch wrote:
>
> <snip>
>>
>> A few years back I purchased the smaller All-Clad roasting pan from
>> outletsonline for much less than list price. It is a wonderful pan!
>> It easily accomodates a small turky, the largest chicken you might
>> roast, or a duck. Best of all, it is very sturdy and has a heavy
>> bottom (steel only, no cladding). I love being able to put it on the
>> stovetop and make the gravy directly from the pan-drippings (yum).
>> You can't do that with a disposable aluminum roasting pan, or even
>> one of those blue-speckled
> <snip>
>
> Sure you can. Plus the bottom shouldn't really matter in this case as
> the bird should be on a rack anyhow.
>

Perhaps I wasn't clear. What I was talking about happens after you take
the bird and rack out of the pan and the drippings are still in it. You
can skim the fat off and then set the roasting pan on the stove burner
and make the gravy directly in it. That way every one of the yummy brown
bits go into the gravy. None are lost by scraping the roasting into a
different vessel for making the gravy. (Also there is one less thing to
clean.) The bottom matters because you are putting the pan on the stove
top and turning the heat on. If you tried doing that with a disposable
pan it wouldn't work. It would be like using a disposable aluminum pie
plate to fry eggs!

Debbie

P.S. Turkey stock is simmering *now*. The house smells like Thanksgiving
already, and I will have a base ingredient for the stuffing as well as
the gravy and more to go into many yummy leftovers.

--
Anti-spam advisory: The email address used to post this article is a
throw-away address. It will be invalidated and replaced with another if
and when it is found by spammers.

Debbie Deutsch > wrote in
. 97.132:

> Steve Calvin > wrote in
> s.com:
>
>> Debbie Deutsch wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> A few years back I purchased the smaller All-Clad roasting pan from
>>> outletsonline for much less than list price. It is a wonderful pan!
>>> It easily accomodates a small turky, the largest chicken you might
>>> roast, or a duck. Best of all, it is very sturdy and has a heavy
>>> bottom (steel only, no cladding). I love being able to put it on
>>> the stovetop and make the gravy directly from the pan-drippings
>>> (yum). You can't do that with a disposable aluminum roasting pan, or
>>> even one of those blue-speckled
>> <snip>
>>
>> Sure you can. Plus the bottom shouldn't really matter in this case as
>> the bird should be on a rack anyhow.
>>
>
> Perhaps I wasn't clear. What I was talking about happens after you
> take the bird and rack out of the pan and the drippings are still in
> it. You can skim the fat off and then set the roasting pan on the
> stove burner and make the gravy directly in it. That way every one of
> the yummy brown bits go into the gravy. None are lost by scraping the
> roasting into a different vessel for making the gravy. (Also there is
> one less thing to clean.) The bottom matters because you are putting
> the pan on the stove top and turning the heat on. If you tried doing
> that with a disposable pan it wouldn't work. It would be like using a
> disposable aluminum pie plate to fry eggs!
>
> Debbie
>
> P.S. Turkey stock is simmering *now*. The house smells like
> Thanksgiving already, and I will have a base ingredient for the
> stuffing as well as the gravy and more to go into many yummy
> leftovers.
>

Argh... missing words... I meant to say "That way every one of the yummy
brown bits goes into the gravy. None are lost by scraping out the
roasting pan into a different vessel for making the gravy."

Also the reason why the disposable pan won't work on the burner is that
it will certainly deform, and might even develop holes (if not from
melting, because you need to stir and push around the stuff in the pan as
you are making the gravy, and the bottom may be softened by the heat.)

--
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and when it is found by spammers.

"Debbie Deutsch" > wrote in message
. 97.132...
> Steve Calvin > wrote in
> s.com:
>
> > Debbie Deutsch wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >>
> >> A few years back I purchased the smaller All-Clad roasting pan from
> >> outletsonline for much less than list price. It is a wonderful pan!
> >> It easily accomodates a small turky, the largest chicken you might
> >> roast, or a duck. Best of all, it is very sturdy and has a heavy
> >> bottom (steel only, no cladding). I love being able to put it on the
> >> stovetop and make the gravy directly from the pan-drippings (yum).
> >> You can't do that with a disposable aluminum roasting pan, or even
> >> one of those blue-speckled
> > <snip>
> >
> > Sure you can. Plus the bottom shouldn't really matter in this case as
> > the bird should be on a rack anyhow.
> >
>
> Perhaps I wasn't clear. What I was talking about happens after you take
> the bird and rack out of the pan and the drippings are still in it. You
> can skim the fat off and then set the roasting pan on the stove burner
> and make the gravy directly in it. That way every one of the yummy brown
> bits go into the gravy. None are lost by scraping the roasting into a
> different vessel for making the gravy. (Also there is one less thing to
> clean.) The bottom matters because you are putting the pan on the stove
> top and turning the heat on. If you tried doing that with a disposable
> pan it wouldn't work. It would be like using a disposable aluminum pie
> plate to fry eggs!
>
> Debbie
>
> P.S. Turkey stock is simmering *now*. The house smells like Thanksgiving
> already, and I will have a base ingredient for the stuffing as well as
> the gravy and more to go into many yummy leftovers.
>
> --
> Anti-spam advisory: The email address used to post this article is a
> throw-away address. It will be invalidated and replaced with another if
> and when it is found by spammers.

I want to come to your house! I never have Thanksgiving at my house. My
sisters live in a more central location and have bigger houses than I do. I
end up making a turkey breast, which is just enough for the meal, leftovers,
soup, and some turkey in the freezer. There are only 4 of us and I don't
want to make a big turkey.

Dawn

"DawnK" > wrote in
:

>
> I want to come to your house! I never have Thanksgiving at my house.
> My sisters live in a more central location and have bigger houses than
> I do. I end up making a turkey breast, which is just enough for the
> meal, leftovers, soup, and some turkey in the freezer. There are only
> 4 of us and I don't want to make a big turkey.
>
> Dawn
>
>
>

There is one of me. This year I didn't get an invite and the people who
I might invite are going out of town. But I am having a turkey anyway,
and a good-sized one at that! I wouldn't pass up an opportunity to cook
a ritual turkey dinner, even if it is just for me (and some plates on the
floor for the cats - on Thanksgiving they each get a small real slice of
turkey, not just scraps).

It is just as much trouble to make a big turkey as it is a small one, or
even a part of one. Leftover turkey freezes so well if you take a little
care. I just put the leftovers in the fridge after my meal, and the next
day (when I am recharged) I cut it up into reasonable chunks, and freeze
them individually in vacuum sealer bags. These go into a basket in my
not-frost-free freezer down in the basement. I'll be able to have yummy
and convenient turkey meals well into next year.

The same freezer has beef broth kits (units of oxtails and beef shin
appropriate for one batch of Alton Brown's beef broth recipe), frozen
quart containers of various kinds of broth (chicken, beef, sometimes
turkey, dashi, whatever I have made a batch of and won't use up quickly)
and some veal bones that I saw one day at a not-so-nearby meat market and
felt I had to get because they are not regularly available near home, and
what if I want to make a very serious stock that called for them?????

Debbie

--
Anti-spam advisory: The email address used to post this article is a
throw-away address. It will be invalidated and replaced with another if
and when it is found by spammers.

"Debbie Deutsch" > wrote in message
7.132...
> "DawnK" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > I want to come to your house! I never have Thanksgiving at my house.
> > My sisters live in a more central location and have bigger houses than
> > I do. I end up making a turkey breast, which is just enough for the
> > meal, leftovers, soup, and some turkey in the freezer. There are only
> > 4 of us and I don't want to make a big turkey.
> >
> > Dawn
> >
> >
> >
>
> There is one of me. This year I didn't get an invite and the people who
> I might invite are going out of town. But I am having a turkey anyway,
> and a good-sized one at that! I wouldn't pass up an opportunity to cook
> a ritual turkey dinner, even if it is just for me (and some plates on the
> floor for the cats - on Thanksgiving they each get a small real slice of
> turkey, not just scraps).
>
> It is just as much trouble to make a big turkey as it is a small one, or
> even a part of one. Leftover turkey freezes so well if you take a little
> care. I just put the leftovers in the fridge after my meal, and the next
> day (when I am recharged) I cut it up into reasonable chunks, and freeze
> them individually in vacuum sealer bags. These go into a basket in my
> not-frost-free freezer down in the basement. I'll be able to have yummy
> and convenient turkey meals well into next year.
>
> The same freezer has beef broth kits (units of oxtails and beef shin
> appropriate for one batch of Alton Brown's beef broth recipe), frozen
> quart containers of various kinds of broth (chicken, beef, sometimes
> turkey, dashi, whatever I have made a batch of and won't use up quickly)
> and some veal bones that I saw one day at a not-so-nearby meat market and
> felt I had to get because they are not regularly available near home, and
> what if I want to make a very serious stock that called for them?????
>
> Debbie
>
> --
> Anti-spam advisory: The email address used to post this article is a
> throw-away address. It will be invalidated and replaced with another if
> and when it is found by spammers.

Sounds yummy! Our dog usually gets a few scraps of turkey, too.

Dawn

Aileen Sharma > wrote:

> I know some of you feel that spending money on expensive cookware is
> frivolous but I love the process and beautiful tools as much as the end
> product My question is sincere. Do you think that the larger sized
> pan would only be useful periodically for turkey days or should I get
> the larger one just in case.

I would go with the larger one - it's good for all kinds of things, not
just turkeys. Ribs, lasagne, coffee cakes, sticky buns...

"Debbie Deutsch" > wrote in message
. 97.132...
snip
> A few years back I purchased the smaller All-Clad roasting pan from
> outletsonline for much less than list price. It is a wonderful pan! It
> easily accomodates a small turky, the largest chicken you might roast, or
> a duck. Best of all, it is very sturdy and has a heavy bottom (steel
> only, no cladding). I love being able to put it on the stovetop and make
> the gravy directly from the pan-drippings (yum). You can't do that with
> a disposable aluminum roasting pan, or even one of those blue-speckled
> enamel things (too thin, would have hot spots).
snip
>
> Debbie
>
>
> --
Please don't say that one can't make gravy in the bottom of a blue specked
pan. I've done it many times. Just thicken with a slurry after deglazing
with stock.

del

"Del Cecchi" > wrote in
:

>
> "Debbie Deutsch" > wrote in message
> . 97.132...
> snip
>> A few years back I purchased the smaller All-Clad roasting pan from
>> outletsonline for much less than list price. It is a wonderful pan!
>> It easily accomodates a small turky, the largest chicken you might
>> roast, or a duck. Best of all, it is very sturdy and has a heavy
>> bottom (steel only, no cladding). I love being able to put it on the
>> stovetop and make the gravy directly from the pan-drippings (yum).
>> You can't do that with a disposable aluminum roasting pan, or even
>> one of those blue-speckled enamel things (too thin, would have hot
>> spots).
> snip
>>
>> Debbie
>>
>>
>> --
> Please don't say that one can't make gravy in the bottom of a blue
> specked pan. I've done it many times. Just thicken with a slurry
> after deglazing with stock.
>
> del
>
>
>

The way I make gravy, I brown the flour in the fat in the pan to make a
roux, then add back in the rest of the pan drippings and additional
stock. If I understand you correctly, you start with all the liquid in
the pan, then add uncooked flour mixed with water (what I think you mean
by slurry) to thicken. Do I have this right? If so, what you are doing
will work because hotspots won't matter - what you are doing is heating
liquid in the pan. If you tried to cook the flour in the pan before
adding liquid, hotspots could be a big trouble.

FWIW, I like to cook the flour in the pan because I like the flavor
better and the gravy is a richer, darker color. If you have never tried
doing this, it might be worth an experiment to see if you like it too.

Debbie

--
Anti-spam advisory: The email address used to post this article is a
throw-away address. It will be invalidated and replaced with another if
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In article 32>,
Debbie Deutsch > wrote:
>"Del Cecchi" > wrote in
:
>
>>
>> "Debbie Deutsch" > wrote in message
>> . 97.132...
>> snip
>>> A few years back I purchased the smaller All-Clad roasting pan from
>>> outletsonline for much less than list price. It is a wonderful pan!
>>> It easily accomodates a small turky, the largest chicken you might
>>> roast, or a duck. Best of all, it is very sturdy and has a heavy
>>> bottom (steel only, no cladding). I love being able to put it on the
>>> stovetop and make the gravy directly from the pan-drippings (yum).
>>> You can't do that with a disposable aluminum roasting pan, or even
>>> one of those blue-speckled enamel things (too thin, would have hot
>>> spots).
>> snip
>>>
>>> Debbie
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>> Please don't say that one can't make gravy in the bottom of a blue
>> specked pan. I've done it many times. Just thicken with a slurry
>> after deglazing with stock.
>>
>> del
>>
>>
>>
>
>The way I make gravy, I brown the flour in the fat in the pan to make a
>roux, then add back in the rest of the pan drippings and additional
>stock. If I understand you correctly, you start with all the liquid in
>the pan, then add uncooked flour mixed with water (what I think you mean
>by slurry) to thicken. Do I have this right? If so, what you are doing
>will work because hotspots won't matter - what you are doing is heating
>liquid in the pan. If you tried to cook the flour in the pan before
>adding liquid, hotspots could be a big trouble.
>
>FWIW, I like to cook the flour in the pan because I like the flavor
>better and the gravy is a richer, darker color. If you have never tried
>doing this, it might be worth an experiment to see if you like it too.

Some people use a corn starch slurry to thicken rather than a flour
roux.

Cornstarch thickens on contact with the hot liquid it's added to.

Arrowroot is similar to corn starch, with slightly less thickening
power.


Chuck Demas

--
Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all,
Stay Fit | @ @ | If a man waited to do it so well,
Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.
| \___/ | http://world.std.com/~cpd

Does anyone in this group know how to snip?


On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:34:34 -0600, in a clarity of expression
resembling Cicero, "DawnK" > wrote:

>
>"Debbie Deutsch" > wrote in message
. 97.132...
>> "DawnK" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >
>> > I want to come to your house! I never have Thanksgiving at my house.
>> > My sisters live in a more central location and have bigger houses than
>> > I do. I end up making a turkey breast, which is just enough for the
>> > meal, leftovers, soup, and some turkey in the freezer. There are only
>> > 4 of us and I don't want to make a big turkey.
>> >
>> > Dawn
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> There is one of me. This year I didn't get an invite and the people who
>> I might invite are going out of town. But I am having a turkey anyway,
>> and a good-sized one at that! I wouldn't pass up an opportunity to cook
>> a ritual turkey dinner, even if it is just for me (and some plates on the
>> floor for the cats - on Thanksgiving they each get a small real slice of
>> turkey, not just scraps).
>>
>> It is just as much trouble to make a big turkey as it is a small one, or
>> even a part of one. Leftover turkey freezes so well if you take a little
>> care. I just put the leftovers in the fridge after my meal, and the next
>> day (when I am recharged) I cut it up into reasonable chunks, and freeze
>> them individually in vacuum sealer bags. These go into a basket in my
>> not-frost-free freezer down in the basement. I'll be able to have yummy
>> and convenient turkey meals well into next year.
>>
>> The same freezer has beef broth kits (units of oxtails and beef shin
>> appropriate for one batch of Alton Brown's beef broth recipe), frozen
>> quart containers of various kinds of broth (chicken, beef, sometimes
>> turkey, dashi, whatever I have made a batch of and won't use up quickly)
>> and some veal bones that I saw one day at a not-so-nearby meat market and
>> felt I had to get because they are not regularly available near home, and
>> what if I want to make a very serious stock that called for them?????
>>
>> Debbie
>>
>> --
>> Anti-spam advisory: The email address used to post this article is a
>> throw-away address. It will be invalidated and replaced with another if
>> and when it is found by spammers.
>
>Sounds yummy! Our dog usually gets a few scraps of turkey, too.
>
>Dawn
>

Frank Lynch
The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page is at:
http://www.samueljohnson.com/

"Frank Lynch" > wrote in message
...
> Does anyone in this group know how to snip?
>
>
> On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:34:34 -0600, in a clarity of expression
> resembling Cicero, "DawnK" > wrote:
>

Well, I snipped my toenails last night. But if you are talking about
snipping posts when replying, it is really inappropriate for a top poster to
criticize how others post.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"Peter Aitken" > wrote in message
om...
> "Frank Lynch" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Does anyone in this group know how to snip?
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 06:34:34 -0600, in a clarity of expression
> > resembling Cicero, "DawnK" > wrote:
> >
>
> Well, I snipped my toenails last night. But if you are talking about
> snipping posts when replying, it is really inappropriate for a top poster
to
> criticize how others post.
>
>
> --
> Peter Aitken
>
> Remove the crap from my email address before using.
>
>

So, I forgot to snip. So sue me. I have bigger things in my life to worry
about. (for the top poster)

Dawn

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 14:56:34 GMT, in a clarity of expression
resembling Cicero, "Peter Aitken" > wrote:

>Well, I snipped my toenails last night. But if you are talking about
>snipping posts when replying, it is really inappropriate for a top poster to
>criticize how others post.

Generally I bottom post. I chose not to -- anticipating criticism --
in that case so that anyone who wanted to see my point quickly could,
as well as see all that hasn't been snipped.

I assure you, I FAR prefer bottom posting.

Frank Lynch
The Samuel Johnson Sound Bite Page is at:
http://www.samueljohnson.com/