Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking, but I saw
this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching the ribs before
smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great Sauce!
Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to flavor the
sauce would work well too?
What do you think?

"Ch" > wrote in message
news
> Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking,
> but I saw this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching
> the
> ribs before smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great
> Sauce!
> Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to
> flavor the sauce would work well too?
> What do you think?

I think that what you are talking about may (or not) be something that
would taste OK, but it is *NOT* barbecue.
Having said that, try it and see if you like it, but don't call it
barbecue, or if you must, don't come back to a newsgroup with
"barbecue" in it's name and try to change the definition to one that
suits *you* instead of the accepted and respected definition.

BOPB

"Ch" > wrote in message
news
> Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking,
> but I saw this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching
> the
> ribs before smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great
> Sauce!
> Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to
> flavor the sauce would work well too?
> What do you think?

I think that what you are talking about may (or not) be something that
would taste OK, but it is *NOT* barbecue.
Having said that, try it and see if you like it, but don't call it
barbecue, or if you must, don't come back to a newsgroup with
"barbecue" in it's name and try to change the definition to one that
suits *you* instead of the accepted and respected definition.

BOPB

Ah ok.
I am talking about the sauce - I think you are talking about the ribs...?
Any thought on the sauce made with juices from poached and/or cooked down
ribs...? (Thus why I wondered about cutting off only one or two to poach to
get the juices from and smoke the rest as proscribed here
I sort of wonder if the added juices would be hardly noticable in a sauce
or make a nice noticible difference - it does Sound Good!
Oh well - this is a minor question - just wondered if anyone had tried rib
'drippings' in their sauce.

> I think that what you are talking about may (or not) be something that
> would taste OK, but it is *NOT* barbecue.
> Having said that, try it and see if you like it, but don't call it
> barbecue, or if you must, don't come back to a newsgroup with
> "barbecue" in it's name and try to change the definition to one that
> suits *you* instead of the accepted and respected definition.
>
> BOPB
>
>

Ah ok.
I am talking about the sauce - I think you are talking about the ribs...?
Any thought on the sauce made with juices from poached and/or cooked down
ribs...? (Thus why I wondered about cutting off only one or two to poach to
get the juices from and smoke the rest as proscribed here
I sort of wonder if the added juices would be hardly noticable in a sauce
or make a nice noticible difference - it does Sound Good!
Oh well - this is a minor question - just wondered if anyone had tried rib
'drippings' in their sauce.

> I think that what you are talking about may (or not) be something that
> would taste OK, but it is *NOT* barbecue.
> Having said that, try it and see if you like it, but don't call it
> barbecue, or if you must, don't come back to a newsgroup with
> "barbecue" in it's name and try to change the definition to one that
> suits *you* instead of the accepted and respected definition.
>
> BOPB
>
>

"Ch" > wrote in message

>
>> I think that what you are talking about may (or not) be something
>> that would taste OK, but it is *NOT* barbecue.
>> Having said that, try it and see if you like it, but don't call it
>> barbecue, or if you must, don't come back to a newsgroup with
>> "barbecue" in it's name and try to change the definition to one
>> that
>> suits *you* instead of the accepted and respected definition.
>>
>> BOPB (lol...fat fingers?)

{moved for proper sequence of conversation}
> Ah ok.
> I am talking about the sauce - I think you are talking about the
> ribs...? Any thought on the sauce made with juices from poached
> and/or cooked down ribs...? (Thus why I wondered about cutting off
> only one or two to poach to get the juices from and smoke the rest
> as
> proscribed here I sort of wonder if the added juices would be
> hardly noticable in a sauce or make a nice noticible difference - it
> does Sound Good! Oh well - this is a minor question - just wondered
> if anyone had tried rib 'drippings' in their sauce.

I personally don't use sauce on ribs. Unless I over-cooked them and
need the sauce for moisture.
Sauce covers a lot of mistakes and masks the taste of the meat

BOB

"Ch" > wrote in message

>
>> I think that what you are talking about may (or not) be something
>> that would taste OK, but it is *NOT* barbecue.
>> Having said that, try it and see if you like it, but don't call it
>> barbecue, or if you must, don't come back to a newsgroup with
>> "barbecue" in it's name and try to change the definition to one
>> that
>> suits *you* instead of the accepted and respected definition.
>>
>> BOPB (lol...fat fingers?)

{moved for proper sequence of conversation}
> Ah ok.
> I am talking about the sauce - I think you are talking about the
> ribs...? Any thought on the sauce made with juices from poached
> and/or cooked down ribs...? (Thus why I wondered about cutting off
> only one or two to poach to get the juices from and smoke the rest
> as
> proscribed here I sort of wonder if the added juices would be
> hardly noticable in a sauce or make a nice noticible difference - it
> does Sound Good! Oh well - this is a minor question - just wondered
> if anyone had tried rib 'drippings' in their sauce.

I personally don't use sauce on ribs. Unless I over-cooked them and
need the sauce for moisture.
Sauce covers a lot of mistakes and masks the taste of the meat

BOB

Thanks
(And yes - I realized after the fact that my Title was all wrong!)

Thanks
(And yes - I realized after the fact that my Title was all wrong!)

Ch wrote:

[Answer properly bottom-posted to keep contextual readability]

> Any thought on the sauce made with juices from poached
> and/or cooked down ribs...?

Unless properly handled and prepared, there is an above average risk for
food-borne illness, and VERY limited storage life for left-overs.
--
Dave
Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
http://davebbq.com/

Ch wrote:

[Answer properly bottom-posted to keep contextual readability]

> Any thought on the sauce made with juices from poached
> and/or cooked down ribs...?

Unless properly handled and prepared, there is an above average risk for
food-borne illness, and VERY limited storage life for left-overs.
--
Dave
Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
http://davebbq.com/

On 26-Mar-2005, "Ch" > wrote:

> Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking, but I
> saw
> this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching the ribs before
> smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great Sauce!
> Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to flavor the
> sauce would work well too?
> What do you think?

I wouldn't cut any off. Instead, I'd use a catch pan under the otherwise
cooking ribs to catch the drippings. Those drippings along with their
smoky flaver could then be used to flaver a sauce. I haven't done it
before, but don't see why it wouldnt work. Easy to do with an offset
cooker like mine. Not so easy with a Weber kettle. Maybe the Kamado
folk will tell us how they'd to it in their big flower pots. <g>

Brick (Keep the shiny side up)

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"Brick" > wrote in message

> On 26-Mar-2005, "Ch" > wrote:
>
>> Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking,
>> but I saw
>> this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching the ribs
>> before smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great Sauce!
>> Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to
>> flavor the sauce would work well too?
>> What do you think?
>
> I wouldn't cut any off. Instead, I'd use a catch pan under the
> otherwise
> cooking ribs to catch the drippings. Those drippings along with
> their
> smoky flaver could then be used to flaver a sauce. I haven't done it
> before, but don't see why it wouldnt work. Easy to do with an offset
> cooker like mine. Not so easy with a Weber kettle.

> Maybe the Kamado
> folk will tell us how they'd to it in their big flower pots. <g>
>

Like I said in another post, I don't have any use for sauce on ribs,
unless I over-cooked them and dried them out...

BUT, when I cook a tender beef roast and want an "au-jus" I will put a
heat deflector (pizza stone wrapped in foil) on either the lower
bracket or the main grill with a drip pan sitting on the stone. The
meat goes on a grill over the drip pan while the drip pan collects the
juices, like in your idea. BUT, don't leave the drippings in for the
entire cook or they will become too "smokey" and can possibly burn.

BOB

"Brick" > wrote in message

> On 26-Mar-2005, "Ch" > wrote:
>
>> Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking,
>> but I saw
>> this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching the ribs
>> before smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great Sauce!
>> Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to
>> flavor the sauce would work well too?
>> What do you think?
>
> I wouldn't cut any off. Instead, I'd use a catch pan under the
> otherwise
> cooking ribs to catch the drippings. Those drippings along with
> their
> smoky flaver could then be used to flaver a sauce. I haven't done it
> before, but don't see why it wouldnt work. Easy to do with an offset
> cooker like mine. Not so easy with a Weber kettle.

> Maybe the Kamado
> folk will tell us how they'd to it in their big flower pots. <g>
>

Like I said in another post, I don't have any use for sauce on ribs,
unless I over-cooked them and dried them out...

BUT, when I cook a tender beef roast and want an "au-jus" I will put a
heat deflector (pizza stone wrapped in foil) on either the lower
bracket or the main grill with a drip pan sitting on the stone. The
meat goes on a grill over the drip pan while the drip pan collects the
juices, like in your idea. BUT, don't leave the drippings in for the
entire cook or they will become too "smokey" and can possibly burn.

BOB

"BOB" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Brick" > wrote in message

I'm with Dave just based on common sense. And then for sauces and reductions
or stocks you very rarely use pork. There's probably a reason there's no
pork stock. Have no idea what that might be............

I've not ever seen a bbq sauce that uses drippings. And you gotta suspect
for good reason such as Dave suggested.

"BOB" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Brick" > wrote in message

I'm with Dave just based on common sense. And then for sauces and reductions
or stocks you very rarely use pork. There's probably a reason there's no
pork stock. Have no idea what that might be............

I've not ever seen a bbq sauce that uses drippings. And you gotta suspect
for good reason such as Dave suggested.

On 27-Mar-2005, "BOB" > wrote:

> "Brick" > wrote in message

<snip>

>
> > Maybe the Kamado
> > folk will tell us how they'd to it in their big flower pots. <g>
> >
>
> Like I said in another post, I don't have any use for sauce on ribs,
> unless I over-cooked them and dried them out...
>
> BUT, when I cook a tender beef roast and want an "au-jus" I will put a
> heat deflector (pizza stone wrapped in foil) on either the lower
> bracket or the main grill with a drip pan sitting on the stone. The
> meat goes on a grill over the drip pan while the drip pan collects the
> juices, like in your idea. BUT, don't leave the drippings in for the
> entire cook or they will become too "smokey" and can possibly burn.
>
> BOB

Sounds like a plan BOB. It probably should be pointed out for the
uninitiated that the Kamado folks employ multiple grill levels in
various configurations. And those yummy drippings don't have
to be used to make a sauce for the meat. They make damned
good gravy too or sauces for vegetables. (Heed BOB's warning
about leaving the drippings in the cooker too long. Burned
drippings are worthless.)

Brick (Keep the shiny side up)

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On 27-Mar-2005, "BOB" > wrote:

> "Brick" > wrote in message

<snip>

>
> > Maybe the Kamado
> > folk will tell us how they'd to it in their big flower pots. <g>
> >
>
> Like I said in another post, I don't have any use for sauce on ribs,
> unless I over-cooked them and dried them out...
>
> BUT, when I cook a tender beef roast and want an "au-jus" I will put a
> heat deflector (pizza stone wrapped in foil) on either the lower
> bracket or the main grill with a drip pan sitting on the stone. The
> meat goes on a grill over the drip pan while the drip pan collects the
> juices, like in your idea. BUT, don't leave the drippings in for the
> entire cook or they will become too "smokey" and can possibly burn.
>
> BOB

Sounds like a plan BOB. It probably should be pointed out for the
uninitiated that the Kamado folks employ multiple grill levels in
various configurations. And those yummy drippings don't have
to be used to make a sauce for the meat. They make damned
good gravy too or sauces for vegetables. (Heed BOB's warning
about leaving the drippings in the cooker too long. Burned
drippings are worthless.)

Brick (Keep the shiny side up)

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----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:19:33 GMT, "Ch"
> wrote:

>Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking, but I saw
>this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching the ribs before
>smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great Sauce!
You could certainly use any kind of rich meat stock as a base for a
sauce for ribs.
>Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to flavor the
>sauce would work well too?
>What do you think?
>
A rib or two won't produce enough flavor in a stock to make a
difference. You will probably need a lot more bones and meat. Pork is
not commonly used as the main base for a stock, though it is sometimes
used in combination with other meats. To my taste, pork contributes
sort of a "fleshy" taste to a stock. A bit of that is OK, but not very
appealing as the main flavor component of a stock.

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:19:33 GMT, "Ch"
> wrote:

>Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking, but I saw
>this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching the ribs before
>smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great Sauce!
You could certainly use any kind of rich meat stock as a base for a
sauce for ribs.
>Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to flavor the
>sauce would work well too?
>What do you think?
>
A rib or two won't produce enough flavor in a stock to make a
difference. You will probably need a lot more bones and meat. Pork is
not commonly used as the main base for a stock, though it is sometimes
used in combination with other meats. To my taste, pork contributes
sort of a "fleshy" taste to a stock. A bit of that is OK, but not very
appealing as the main flavor component of a stock.

Leonard Lehew wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:19:33 GMT, "Ch"
> > wrote:
>
>> Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking,
>> but I saw this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching
>> the ribs before smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great
>> Sauce!
> You could certainly use any kind of rich meat stock as a base for a
> sauce for ribs.
>> Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to
>> flavor the sauce would work well too?
>> What do you think?
>>
> A rib or two won't produce enough flavor in a stock to make a
> difference. You will probably need a lot more bones and meat. Pork is
> not commonly used as the main base for a stock, though it is sometimes
> used in combination with other meats. To my taste, pork contributes
> sort of a "fleshy" taste to a stock. A bit of that is OK, but not very
> appealing as the main flavor component of a stock.


I guess you've never made pea soup or any kind of lentil soup with a
ham-based stock? I do it all the time; no complaints from my husband or
friends.

kili

Leonard Lehew wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:19:33 GMT, "Ch"
> > wrote:
>
>> Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking,
>> but I saw this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching
>> the ribs before smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great
>> Sauce!
> You could certainly use any kind of rich meat stock as a base for a
> sauce for ribs.
>> Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to
>> flavor the sauce would work well too?
>> What do you think?
>>
> A rib or two won't produce enough flavor in a stock to make a
> difference. You will probably need a lot more bones and meat. Pork is
> not commonly used as the main base for a stock, though it is sometimes
> used in combination with other meats. To my taste, pork contributes
> sort of a "fleshy" taste to a stock. A bit of that is OK, but not very
> appealing as the main flavor component of a stock.


I guess you've never made pea soup or any kind of lentil soup with a
ham-based stock? I do it all the time; no complaints from my husband or
friends.

kili

Ch wrote:
> Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking, but I saw
> this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching the ribs before
> smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great Sauce!
> Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to flavor the
> sauce would work well too?
> What do you think?
>
>
Why do't you post the recipe???

It's too hard to give a definitive answer without knowing what kind of
sauce it is.

Also, you'll only find out if it really is a great sauce by trying it
out, you won't be out anything. Then report back your results.

--
Regards, Mike Willsey (Piedmont)

Please visit my MSN Group: "The Practical Bar B Q'r", A great barbecue
resource; Filled with links and down-loadable documents on building or
buying a cooker, recipes, and links to other great bbq sites. Free
membership to all!

http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw

Ch wrote:
> Ok - I Do Believe that one should not precook ribs before smoking, but I saw
> this home made sauce that uses the juices from poaching the ribs before
> smoking them, and I got to say, it look like Great Sauce!
> Maybe just cutting off a rib or two and cooking it down some to flavor the
> sauce would work well too?
> What do you think?
>
>
Why do't you post the recipe???

It's too hard to give a definitive answer without knowing what kind of
sauce it is.

Also, you'll only find out if it really is a great sauce by trying it
out, you won't be out anything. Then report back your results.

--
Regards, Mike Willsey (Piedmont)

Please visit my MSN Group: "The Practical Bar B Q'r", A great barbecue
resource; Filled with links and down-loadable documents on building or
buying a cooker, recipes, and links to other great bbq sites. Free
membership to all!

http://groups.msn.com/ThePracticalBa...ewwelcome.msnw

Thank you all for your thoughts!

Thank you all for your thoughts!

I would have hoped from the subject line of this thread that we were
embarking on a discussion of techniques for sneaking up on smoking pits and
making off undetected with a few tasty racks. Alas, it turned into a
pornographic rant on food abuse. Bummer.

JD

I would have hoped from the subject line of this thread that we were
embarking on a discussion of techniques for sneaking up on smoking pits and
making off undetected with a few tasty racks. Alas, it turned into a
pornographic rant on food abuse. Bummer.

JD

Nick wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:14:57 -0800, "Dave Bugg" >
> wrote:
>
>> Ch wrote:
>>
>> [Answer properly bottom-posted to <SNIP>

> Answer "properly" bottom-posted because the dAV3 Buggerman is an ANAL
> RETENTIVE DICKSUCKER.

>>> Any thought on the sauce made with juices from poached
>>> and/or cooked down ribs...?
>>
>> Unless properly handled and prepared, there is an above average risk
>> for food-borne illness, and VERY limited storage life for left-overs.


ROTFLOL!!!! All those winsome, lilting and uplifting words, yet despite
your claim to have "properly" bottom-posted you still didn't get it right.
LOL!!!!
--
Dave
Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
http://davebbq.com/

Nick wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:14:57 -0800, "Dave Bugg" >
> wrote:
>
>> Ch wrote:
>>
>> [Answer properly bottom-posted to <SNIP>

> Answer "properly" bottom-posted because the dAV3 Buggerman is an ANAL
> RETENTIVE DICKSUCKER.

>>> Any thought on the sauce made with juices from poached
>>> and/or cooked down ribs...?
>>
>> Unless properly handled and prepared, there is an above average risk
>> for food-borne illness, and VERY limited storage life for left-overs.


ROTFLOL!!!! All those winsome, lilting and uplifting words, yet despite
your claim to have "properly" bottom-posted you still didn't get it right.
LOL!!!!
--
Dave
Dave's Pit-Smoked Bar-B-Que
http://davebbq.com/

Kilikini wrote:

> I guess you've never made pea soup or any kind of lentil soup with a
> ham-based stock? I do it all the time; no complaints from my husband or
> friends.
>
>

Ham != pork when it comes to stock. Something about the cure, salt and
smoke that make it more interesting.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Kilikini wrote:

> I guess you've never made pea soup or any kind of lentil soup with a
> ham-based stock? I do it all the time; no complaints from my husband or
> friends.
>
>

Ham != pork when it comes to stock. Something about the cure, salt and
smoke that make it more interesting.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> Kilikini wrote:
>
>> I guess you've never made pea soup or any kind of lentil soup with a
>> ham-based stock? I do it all the time; no complaints from my
>> husband or friends.
>>
>>
>
> Ham != pork when it comes to stock. Something about the cure, salt and
> smoke that make it more interesting.
>
> Matthew

Yep! Absolutely. No matter what kind of stock (chicken, turkey, pork,
fish) it's all good.

kili

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> Kilikini wrote:
>
>> I guess you've never made pea soup or any kind of lentil soup with a
>> ham-based stock? I do it all the time; no complaints from my
>> husband or friends.
>>
>>
>
> Ham != pork when it comes to stock. Something about the cure, salt and
> smoke that make it more interesting.
>
> Matthew

Yep! Absolutely. No matter what kind of stock (chicken, turkey, pork,
fish) it's all good.

kili

(Hey - most Any Question here ends up the same! But there usually is some
good food for the taking too!
....
> embarking on a discussion of techniques for sneaking up on smoking pits
and
> making off undetected with a few tasty racks. Alas, it turned into a
> pornographic rant on food abuse. Bummer.
>
> JD
>
>

(Hey - most Any Question here ends up the same! But there usually is some
good food for the taking too!
....
> embarking on a discussion of techniques for sneaking up on smoking pits
and
> making off undetected with a few tasty racks. Alas, it turned into a
> pornographic rant on food abuse. Bummer.
>
> JD
>
>

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 13:33:57 GMT, "Kilikini"
> wrote:

>>To my taste, pork contributes
>> sort of a "fleshy" taste to a stock. A bit of that is OK, but not very
>> appealing as the main flavor component of a stock.
>
>
>I guess you've never made pea soup or any kind of lentil soup with a
>ham-based stock? I do it all the time; no complaints from my husband or
>friends.
>
>kili
>
Ham is not the same as a flavoring agent as plain pork. I often use
ham hock to flavor vegetables and soups. When I use the term, stock, I
mean the liquid produced by several hours of simmering bones of some
type of meat along with aromatic vegetables and herbs. How do you make
your ham stock?

Leonard

Leonard Lehew wrote:

>
> Ham is not the same as a flavoring agent as plain pork. I often use
> ham hock to flavor vegetables and soups. When I use the term, stock, I
> mean the liquid produced by several hours of simmering bones of some
> type of meat along with aromatic vegetables and herbs. How do you make
> your ham stock?
>

I typically use a 1 pound ham hock, medium onion, large carrot, stalk of
celery and a dozen or so whole peppercorns in about 6 quarts of water.
Bring to a boil, skim off the top, cover and simmer for at least four
hours, sometimes overnight. I try to reduce it to 4 quarts before using it.

If it simmered for a short period of time (4-6 hours) and I need to use
it, I will fish out the hock and take the meat off the bones for later
introduction into the finished soup. If it simmered overnight, the
remaining meat has the flavor of cardboard, but the stock is much better
for it.

--
Matthew

I'm a contractor. If you want an opinion, I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?

Leonard Lehew wrote:

>
> Ham is not the same as a flavoring agent as plain pork. I often use
> ham hock to flavor vegetables and soups. When I use the term, stock, I
> mean the liquid produced by several hours of simmering bones of some
> type of meat along with aromatic vegetables and herbs. How do you make
> your ham stock?
>

I typically use a 1 pound ham hock, medium onion, large carrot, stalk of
celery and a dozen or so whole peppercorns in about 6 quarts of water.
Bring to a boil, skim off the top, cover and simmer for at least four
hours, sometimes overnight. I try to reduce it to 4 quarts before using it.

If it simmered for a short period of time (4-6 hours) and I need to use
it, I will fish out the hock and take the meat off the bones for later
introduction into the finished soup. If it simmered overnight, the
remaining meat has the flavor of cardboard, but the stock is much better
for it.

--
Matthew

I'm a contractor. If you want an opinion, I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?

wrote:
>
> Nick > wrote:
> []
> > >> POSTer "properly" KILL-FILED because it is a rude, crude, uncouth
> > >> lout!
>
> --
> Nick. To send your support to Any of Our Troops in Harm's Way, go to:
> http://anysoldier.com/
>
> Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !


Oh no, Nick killfiled nick! Will this cause a wierd spiral of events?

-CAL