When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.

Why?

I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
honey, etc. )

Thanks in advance for any help.
Patrick

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
> Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
> Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.
>
> Why?
>
> I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
> about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
> honey, etc. )
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
> Patrick
>
Put the liquids in the bowl first, then add most of the flour. The flour is
the variable. You may need less flour than called for in the recipe simply
because the particular flour you are using may absorb more liquid than the
recipe indicates. This can be caused by using different flour (brand to
brand, time of year, bread flour versus all purpose flour, etc.) If you
dump all the flour in you have no way of controlling the way the dough turns
out. While it is possible to add more liquid to bread dough, it isn't the
easiest thing. It's far easier to add more flour as needed. Come on over
to alt.bread.recipes and ask the same question.
Janet

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
> Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
> Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.
>
> Why?
>
> I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
> about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
> honey, etc. )
>

I would suggest that you read the cookbook that came with the mixer. There
is a section on making bread with several recipe. I use instant yeast, so I
put the flour in the bowl along with all the other dry ingredients. I turn
on the mixer and slowly add the liquid until the dough has formed to my
liking. If I am using a recipe (as opposed to just improvising), I use the
minimum amount of flour indicated. For instance, if the recipe says to use
5 - 6 cup, I use 5 cups. In the event that you add too much liquid, you can
add flour, a few tablespoons at a time, until the dough is just right. Too
sticky is better than too dry.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
>> Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
>> Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
>> about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
>> honey, etc. )
>>
>
> I would suggest that you read the cookbook that came with the mixer.
> There is a section on making bread with several recipe. I use instant
> yeast, so I put the flour in the bowl along with all the other dry
> ingredients. I turn on the mixer and slowly add the liquid until the
> dough has formed to my liking. If I am using a recipe (as opposed to just
> improvising), I use the minimum amount of flour indicated. For instance,
> if the recipe says to use 5 - 6 cup, I use 5 cups. In the event that you
> add too much liquid, you can add flour, a few tablespoons at a time, until
> the dough is just right. Too sticky is better than too dry.
I've found that this method won't work with moister doughs. If you start
with the flour in the bowl and then add the liquid while the mixer turns,
the dough will reach the "clean off the bowl" stage when the dough is too
dry. It is virtually impossible to add water at this stage. It is much
better to start with the liquid in the bowl first and, indeed, this is what
the books with my mixers tell you to do. With the food processor one adds
the liquid to the flour while the machine runs.
Graham

"graham" > wrote in message
news:PfXzf.403116$ki.155422@pd7tw2no...
>
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
>>> Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
>>> Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
>>> about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
>>> honey, etc. )
>>>
>>
>> I would suggest that you read the cookbook that came with the mixer.
>> There is a section on making bread with several recipe. I use instant
>> yeast, so I put the flour in the bowl along with all the other dry
>> ingredients. I turn on the mixer and slowly add the liquid until the
>> dough has formed to my liking. If I am using a recipe (as opposed to
>> just improvising), I use the minimum amount of flour indicated. For
>> instance, if the recipe says to use 5 - 6 cup, I use 5 cups. In the
>> event that you add too much liquid, you can add flour, a few tablespoons
>> at a time, until the dough is just right. Too sticky is better than too
>> dry.
> I've found that this method won't work with moister doughs. If you start
> with the flour in the bowl and then add the liquid while the mixer turns,
> the dough will reach the "clean off the bowl" stage when the dough is too
> dry. It is virtually impossible to add water at this stage. It is much
> better to start with the liquid in the bowl first and, indeed, this is
> what the books with my mixers tell you to do. With the food processor one
> adds the liquid to the flour while the machine runs.
> Graham

I guess it all depends on how fast you add the liquid. As with most kitchen
tasks, what works for one person doesn't always work for the next.

>When making bread in a stand mixer,


Generally
Combine the dry ingredients and dump it into the mixing bowl...
While the machine is running at low speed , add the liquids gradually
until it forms a mass that is either soft or firm depending upon the
type of bread you are planning to make.
Then the mixer speed is changed to medium speed and let it run until
the dough is smooth and elastic...

>>Why?

The simplest answer is ....because that is the way it was practiced
ever since and produced usually consistent results <grin>..

"chembake" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >When making bread in a stand mixer,
>
>
> Generally
> Combine the dry ingredients and dump it into the mixing bowl...
> While the machine is running at low speed , add the liquids gradually
> until it forms a mass that is either soft or firm depending upon the
> type of bread you are planning to make.
> Then the mixer speed is changed to medium speed and let it run until
> the dough is smooth and elastic...
>
>>>Why?
>
> The simplest answer is ....because that is the way it was practiced
> ever since and produced usually consistent results <grin>..
>
you're right, of course. I'm just not thinking straight these days. I've
got to stay away from groups until I get myself straightened around. Sorry.
Janet

>you're right, of course. I'm just not thinking straight these days. I've
got to stay away from groups until I get myself straightened around.

Janet your method is also legitimate and you were able to provide a
valid reason for such technique....
In fact I have used that system you mentioned occasionally ....

On 20 Jan 2006 00:03:12 -0800, "chembake" > wrote:

>>you're right, of course. I'm just not thinking straight these days. I've
>got to stay away from groups until I get myself straightened around.
>
>Janet your method is also legitimate and you were able to provide a
>valid reason for such technique....
>In fact I have used that system you mentioned occasionally ....


I vary my technique according to the bread I am making, whether I am
using yeast, sourdough, biga, poolish, etc, the hydration I am trying
to achieve.

Besides I like to provide excitement and entertainment for the bread
fairies.

I confess that lately, I use no recipes at all for lean breads. I
start something the night before with yeast & flour(s) or sourdough &
flour(s) & in the morning toss in some water & whatever type or types
of flour I want to play with that day. I have found it quite an
interesting exercise.

I got teased by the lab guys at the place my husband works for once in
awhile....they say I am now "in the zone" and he needs to beware.

Boron

Boron Elgar wrote

On 20 Jan 2006 00:03:12 -0800, "chembake" > wrote:



>>you're right, of course. I'm just not thinking straight these days. I've
>got to stay away from groups until I get myself straightened around.

>Janet your method is also legitimate and you were able to provide a
>valid reason for such technique....
>In fact I have used that system you mentioned occasionally ....



>I vary my technique according to the bread I am making, whether I am
>using yeast, sourdough, biga, poolish, etc, the hydration I am trying
>to achieve.

>Besides I like to provide excitement and entertainment for the bread
>fairies.

When I was a small kid watching my mom do the baking, I pull a chair
near the machine immediately climb on it and watch the machine
while running as I find it interesting to see how flour gradually
changes to the dough or batter....

>I confess that lately, I use no recipes at all for lean breads. I
>start something the night before with yeast & flour(s) or sourdough &
>flour(s) & in the morning toss in some water & whatever type or types
>of flour I want to play with that day. I have found it quite an
>interesting exercise.

Its good to know that you have come to that realization where recipes
become less important ....(incidentally few people have achieved that
insight ) .It echoes the saying ...that the more experienced you get in
cookery, everything comes spontaneously....Measurements lose its
meaning.....as you have already perfected your technique... What ever
you do intuitively now is the same as the being done logically in the
past.....

This is one of the reason ....that as you get more experience in what
you do in in particular kitchen work reading cookery books does not
give you any more knowledge....as you had already learned it by
heart....that details and particularities enunciated by cookery authors
become meaning less....

In fact in a some occasions I had seen some highly skilled bakers and
cooks throw their cookery and recipe books to the garbage bin or give
it to somebody else...

What is their point.. (some people ask them).for doing so ...? .they
said there is nothing more to learn there.. or it has become
useless.<grin>.


>I got teased by the lab guys at the place my husband works for once in
>awhile....they say I am now "in the zone" and he needs to beware.

You should be happy ....that you have reached that point ...in your
baking skill...Therefore your hubby should be proud of your
achievements...and .not to be worried about

Interesting to see the variety of responses in this thread....

The reason I was asking is that I've noticed that sometimes the mix
reaches a point where the ball of semi-dry dough (dry on the outside,
wet on the inside) clings to the hook and if there's lots of flour in
the bottom of the bowl, the ball spins around so that the hook
effectively does nothing. Alternatively, if the flour is added to the
liquid, it seems to be more difficult to get it to the "ball" stage....
...but what I'm thinking I should do is set it aside to hydrate for
20-30 mins before adding the final bit of flour - otherwise there's a
danger of adding too much flour at the beginning in an effort to get it
to "ball-up" properly so the kneading can begin.

Patrick

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Interesting to see the variety of responses in this thread....
>
> The reason I was asking is that I've noticed that sometimes the mix
> reaches a point where the ball of semi-dry dough (dry on the outside,
> wet on the inside) clings to the hook and if there's lots of flour in
> the bottom of the bowl, the ball spins around so that the hook
> effectively does nothing.

You can always add a little water to the bowl to moisten the flour on the
bottom. It will then attach to the ball. If in the end the dough is too
sticky, you can add a couple tablespoons of flour. Better yet, remove the
sticky dough and knead it a few times on a floured board. Too sticky is
better than too dry.

Parick wrote:

>The reason I was asking is that I've noticed that sometimes the mix
>reaches a point where the ball of semi-dry dough (dry on the outside,
>wet on the inside) clings to the hook and if there's lots of flour in
>the bottom of the bowl, the ball spins around so that the hook
>effectively does nothing.

That happens if the amount of liquids added is insufficient and the
dough ends firm. In addition to that if you add water slowly there
comes a point that the thorough hydration is impeded by the surrounding
flour particles that commingle with the partly hydrated portions making
it difficult for the water to seep in.

In general bakery practice if the baker reached that point, specially
if they are not experienced they mix the dough at higher speed to
force the partially hydrated dough to take in more water.That results
in the dough becoming warm due to friction and what results is a higher
dough temperature makes it tighter with poor fermentation performance ,
yeasty taste and poor bread flavor.
If it happens ,that improper hydration occurs, what should be done is
to take the dough out and chop it to small pieces sprinkle enough
cool water evenly while blending it with hand . chop it again and
repeat the cycle until you think that you had incorporated enough
liquid in that dough. Put it back in the bowl run the machine at low
speed to medium speed until its turns out into a uniformly hydrated
mass.which in the end will come out like a normal dough.

I can do it in small scale with foodprocessor nearby to do the
chopping ; or in institutional scale I use the Stephan vertical cutter
mixer to do the job. It usually ends that the dough does not need more
mixing time once it transferred] it to the planetary mixer bowl to get
it properly developed to pass the window pane test.

> Alternatively, if the flour is added to the
>liquid, it seems to be more difficult to get it to the "ball" stage....

If the amount of ingredients added to the bowl size is not enough that
the agitator cannot stir it properly it will takes so much time get
to the ball stage. The real problem with many planetary mixers is that
the dough hook is not efficient in the mixing process. This happens if
the amount of dough is too small for the dough hook to knead it
effectively . What I will do if I had the situation where the ratio of
the dough to the bowl size is not appropriate; I use the paddle
instead for mixing it properly and the dough comes out normally ..
..If supposing the paddle is not around I just run the mixer at higher
speed as the greater RPM gets the dough really worked out.

People usually don't do that( paddle change) as its not
'politically correct'; the dough hook is for dough making while the
paddle or beater is for cake mixing, but that is not absolutely true.
In fact if I make sweet dough where the dough is rather wet and
remains sticking to the bowl sides even when already developed the
paddle can do the mixing better than the dough hook.
.. In some bigger bowls of the Hobart mixer there is what is called the
sweet dough beater that looks like a paddle with some corrugation in
the sides
It performs both the scraping , pulling and slapping of the dough
resulting in good mixing performance with wet dough

...but what I'm thinking I should do is set it aside to hydrate for

>20-30 mins before adding the final bit of flour - otherwise there's a
>danger of adding too much flour at the beginning in an effort to get it
>to "ball-up" properly so the kneading can begin

That is another good procedure....which is okay if you are s using
small amounts of yeast, but does not often work if you are using an
accelerated or no time dough system where yeast quantities are higher.
Yes the dough can become hydrated in time but the bread taste often
taste yeasty and had poor texture, eating quality etc.

What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.

Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
"pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
it to hydrate for about 20 mins.

I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.

I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

Patrick

wrote:
> What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
> then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
> the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
> to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
> the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
> while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.

Why do you feel that you have to add more flour? How about follow the
recipe closely (a different one than you tried this time) to see what
happens without second-guessing it. I suggest trying a very basic white
bread recipe and follow it exactly. No additions, no subtractions.

> Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
> Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
> flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
> occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
> "pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
> first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
> added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
> it to hydrate for about 20 mins.

Don't do that. Put the dry ingredients into the work bowl and add
liquids to it. If the recipe gives a range of liquid to add, put the
lower figure in. Then do what it tells you to do.

> I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
> for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
> by the hook as it rotates ...

My bread doughs almost never behave so perfectly. There's almost always
a bit of sticking, particularly with the stickier doughs. Read more
about bread doughs. Anything by Maggie Glezer. Carol Field's baking
books. "Bread" by Bernard Dupaigne.

> otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
> action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
> the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.

That's not a danger, it's a stage. It sounds like you're getting
"creative" with the recipes. It also sounds like your dough is way too
dry - too much flour.

> I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
> you do about it?

Has never happened to me. I use a Kitchenaid mixer with dough hook.

> I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
> an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
> the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

Try a different recipe from an authoritative source and stick to it.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:
> Why do you feel that you have to add more flour? How about follow the
> recipe closely

I did follow the recipe last time and the dough didn't "ball up". I
feel the need to add more flour because the dough doesn't stay
balled-up for the duration of the kneading.

> > I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
> > you do about it?
> Has never happened to me. I use a Kitchenaid mixer with dough hook.

Okay ...what does happen to you? How long do you knead and what does
your dough look like when you knead? Does it ball-up and stay
balled-up for ten minutes of kneading (ie. doesn't stick to the bowl)?

Thanks in advance for your feedback,
Patrick

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
> then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
> the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
> to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
> the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
> while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.
>
> Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
> Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
> flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
> occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
> "pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
> first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
> added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
> it to hydrate for about 20 mins.
>
> I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
> for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
> by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
> action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
> the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.
>
> I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
> you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
> an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
> the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

It has happed to me. When things go wrong with the mixer, the best thing to
do is to remove the dough and work it by hand. If you are having this
problem on a regular basis, I would try another brand of flour. High
protein flour will absorb more water and you will need less and visa-versa.
In the end, it doesn't matter what the recipe says, it matters what the
dough feel like. If you need more flour and the final product is good, then
use more flour and don't worry about it. I have that book and I don't
recall having any major problems with the recipes, although I do think that
I tend to use more flour than she calls for.

I'm using: King Arthur Bread Flour and King Arthur White Whole Wheat
flour (both unbleached). Also I sometimes use a very small amount
(~half cup) of Buckwheat flour (I'm a buckwheat person).

Patrick

On 20 Jan 2006 20:17:47 -0800, wrote:

>What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
>then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
>the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
>to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
>the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
>while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.
>
>Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
>Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
>flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
>occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
>"pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
>first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
>added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
>it to hydrate for about 20 mins.
>
>I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
>for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
>by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
>action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
>the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.
>
>I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
>you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
>an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
>the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.
>
>Patrick

Hi Patrick,

Often, a simple resting of the dough will eliminate the
stickiness problem:

I'd suggest mixing the ingredients just long enough that
there are no pockets of dry flour.

Then, do nothing with it for about twenty minutes.

Then, continue with whatever process you intended.

It is likely to solve the problem you describe, and adding
all that extra flour is not the route to success.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> Hi Patrick,
> Often, a simple resting of the dough will eliminate the
> stickiness problem:
> I'd suggest mixing the ingredients just long enough that
> there are no pockets of dry flour.
> Then, do nothing with it for about twenty minutes.

Yes, Okay this sounds like a good plan.
Thanks Kenneth,
Patrick

wrote:
> What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
> then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
> the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
> to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
> the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
> while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.
>
> Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
> Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
> flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
> occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
> "pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
> first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
> added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
> it to hydrate for about 20 mins.
>
> I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
> for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
> by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
> action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
> the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.
>
> I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
> you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
> an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
> the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.
>
> Patrick
>

Why do you believe that the dough has to form a complete ball and clean
the bowl? Is the bread you are getting unsatisfactory?


--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”