Hello, I am new to this egroup as well to "baking." I usually only
make pizza and the occasional loaf of bread, though I am also
interested in beer brewing...


The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast. I
typically use a few tablespoons of granular sugar(or what the recipe
says); however, recently I used Honey and noticed a huge difference in
the quality of the bread and the amount of rise. I'm assuming that
honey is composed of less complex sugars and so its easier for the
yeast to digest, but this is just an assumption. I am curious if
anyone knows why this is or in fact if it is just coincidence. I'd
also appreciate knowing what other people use, if they use an alternate
sugar source.


Thanks in Advance
Aaron

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello, I am new to this egroup as well to "baking." I usually only
> make pizza and the occasional loaf of bread, though I am also
> interested in beer brewing...
>
>
> The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
> significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast. I
> typically use a few tablespoons of granular sugar(or what the recipe
> says); however, recently I used Honey and noticed a huge difference in
> the quality of the bread and the amount of rise. I'm assuming that
> honey is composed of less complex sugars and so its easier for the
> yeast to digest, but this is just an assumption. I am curious if
> anyone knows why this is or in fact if it is just coincidence. I'd
> also appreciate knowing what other people use, if they use an alternate
> sugar source.

I think it is just a coincidence. In fact, honey can retard yeast
metabolism. This is most likely attributable to what the bees were
consuming while making the honey. It can be hit-or-miss because you
generally don't know the source of the nectar when you buy honey. As I
recall, there is a discussion about this in "Cookwise" That said, I believe
that honey is primarily fructose which is a five carbon sugar and sucrose is
a 6 carbon sugar. Fructose has fewer metabolic steps in the citric acid
cycle. Whether this is relevant or significant, I can't say. I generally
use sucrose, but if I have honey, and depending on what I am making, I may
use it. I don't notice any difference except in flavor.

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello, I am new to this egroup as well to "baking." I usually only
> make pizza and the occasional loaf of bread, though I am also
> interested in beer brewing...
>
>
> The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
> significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast. I
> typically use a few tablespoons of granular sugar(or what the recipe
> says); however, recently I used Honey and noticed a huge difference in
> the quality of the bread and the amount of rise. I'm assuming that
> honey is composed of less complex sugars and so its easier for the
> yeast to digest, but this is just an assumption. I am curious if
> anyone knows why this is or in fact if it is just coincidence. I'd
> also appreciate knowing what other people use, if they use an alternate
> sugar source.
>
>
> Thanks in Advance
> Aaron
>
Feeding the yeast is an outdated custom. Modern active dry yeast needs only
to be hydrated before being used(dissolved in a small portion of water).
Instant yeast doesn't need to be hydrated first and is simply mixed dry with
the dry ingredients. A couple of tablespoons of sugar added to yeast water
could actually kill the yeast. Even in very old recipes, I've only seen
very small amounts of sugar used. The method you are describing was
actually used to test to see if the yeast was alive back in the days when
yeast viability was an issue. Yeast dines on the sugars derived from the
digestion of the starches in the dough. There is actually a special yeast
that is formulated to be able to work in high sugar and rich dough
situations.
Janet

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Hello, I am new to this egroup as well to "baking." I usually only
> > make pizza and the occasional loaf of bread, though I am also
> > interested in beer brewing...
> >
> >
> > The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
> > significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast. I
> > typically use a few tablespoons of granular sugar(or what the recipe
> > says); however, recently I used Honey and noticed a huge difference in
> > the quality of the bread and the amount of rise. I'm assuming that
> > honey is composed of less complex sugars and so its easier for the
> > yeast to digest, but this is just an assumption. I am curious if
> > anyone knows why this is or in fact if it is just coincidence. I'd
> > also appreciate knowing what other people use, if they use an alternate
> > sugar source.
> >
> >
> > Thanks in Advance
> > Aaron
> >
> Feeding the yeast is an outdated custom. Modern active dry yeast needs
only
> to be hydrated before being used(dissolved in a small portion of water).
> Instant yeast doesn't need to be hydrated first and is simply mixed dry
with
> the dry ingredients. A couple of tablespoons of sugar added to yeast
water
> could actually kill the yeast. Even in very old recipes, I've only seen
> very small amounts of sugar used. The method you are describing was
> actually used to test to see if the yeast was alive back in the days when
> yeast viability was an issue. Yeast dines on the sugars derived from the
> digestion of the starches in the dough. There is actually a special yeast
> that is formulated to be able to work in high sugar and rich dough
> situations.
> Janet

All really good points. For a comprehensive discussion on yeast, I would
recommend the following:
http://www.theartisan.net/yeast_treatise_frameset.htm

Wow, so my better "effects" were probably due to using less honey, less
sugar, not because honey is less complex. Good to know, Thanks.

Aaron

wrote:

> The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
> significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast.

Actually, you don't need to use sugar or honey to feed the yeast. They
can break down the starches in flour very nicely and feed on that. If a
recipe calls for a small amount of sugar, "to feed the yeast", just
leave it out. You probably won't notice the difference. (Unless you
use a bread machine where timing is more critical.)

> I typically use a few tablespoons of granular sugar(or what the recipe
> says); however, recently I used Honey and noticed a huge difference in
> the quality of the bread and the amount of rise. I'm assuming that
> honey is composed of less complex sugars and so its easier for the
> yeast to digest, but this is just an assumption. I am curious if
> anyone knows why this is or in fact if it is just coincidence. I'd
> also appreciate knowing what other people use, if they use an alternate
> sugar source.

Sometimes it's hard to know why things change. Too much sugar can cause
problems - sweet doughs like cinnamon rolls use about 4 to 5 times as
much yeast as breads with little to no sugar.

Honey has another issue with regards to rising. Raw honey has enzymes
in it that interfere with yeast. This is to be expected since the bees
don't want the honey to ferment. If you use raw honey, according to
Laurel Robertson who wrote, "Breads from Laurel's Kitchen", you need to
briefly boil raw honey before using it in bread. This outrages the true
believers in raw honey as boiling honey reduces some of the quality and
food value of the honey. My thought is so little honey is used in a
bread, that the difference is slight, while the difference in bread
quality is not. If you're concerened about the quality of the honey,
just put some raw honey on the bread.

When I make sweetened breads, I prefer to use honey rather than white
sugar as honey ads more flavor.

Good luck,
Mike

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.53.1107533109.263.rec.food.baking@mai l.otherwhen.com...
> wrote:
>
> If you use raw honey, according to Laurel Robertson who wrote, "Breads
> from Laurel's Kitchen", you need to briefly boil raw honey before using it
> in bread. This outrages the true believers in raw honey as boiling honey
> reduces some of the quality and food value of the honey.

If the average whole-earth/birkenstock/hairshirt wearer knew what is used to
keep a bee colony healthy, they'd stop eating it, let alone worry about the
effects of boiling.
Graham

"graham" > wrote in message
news:uAQMd.270120$Xk.87481@pd7tw3no...
>
>
> If the average whole-earth/birkenstock/hairshirt wearer knew what is used
> to keep a bee colony healthy, they'd stop eating it, let alone worry about
> the effects of boiling.

Tell us more.

Mary

> Graham
>

"graham" > wrote in message
news:uAQMd.270120$Xk.87481@pd7tw3no...
>
>
> If the average whole-earth/birkenstock/hairshirt wearer knew what is used
> to keep a bee colony healthy, they'd stop eating it, let alone worry about
> the effects of boiling.

Tell us more.

Mary

> Graham
>

Mike Avery wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
>> significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast.
>
>
> Actually, you don't need to use sugar or honey to feed the yeast. They
> can break down the starches in flour very nicely and feed on that. If a
> recipe calls for a small amount of sugar, "to feed the yeast", just
> leave it out. You probably won't notice the difference. (Unless you
> use a bread machine where timing is more critical.)

Not all yeasts can break down starches. If you leave out the sugar, it
may be necessary to do something else, like heavy kneading or adding an
enzyme, to break the starches enough for the yeast to handle. It'll
depend on what yeast blend is being used.

anon k wrote:

> Mike Avery wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
>>> significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast.
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually, you don't need to use sugar or honey to feed the yeast.
>> They can break down the starches in flour very nicely and feed on
>> that. If a recipe calls for a small amount of sugar, "to feed the
>> yeast", just leave it out. You probably won't notice the
>> difference. (Unless you use a bread machine where timing is more
>> critical.)
>
>
> Not all yeasts can break down starches. If you leave out the sugar,
> it may be necessary to do something else, like heavy kneading or
> adding an enzyme, to break the starches enough for the yeast to
> handle. It'll depend on what yeast blend is being used.


That's no doubt true, but it's also not relevant. All bakers yeasts and
all sourdough cultures I've heard of can break down starches into
sugars, thus it is not necessary to add sugars in normal bread making.

Mike

Mike Avery wrote:
> anon k wrote:
>
>> Mike Avery wrote:
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
>>>> significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, you don't need to use sugar or honey to feed the yeast.
>>> They can break down the starches in flour very nicely and feed on
>>> that. If a recipe calls for a small amount of sugar, "to feed the
>>> yeast", just leave it out. You probably won't notice the
>>> difference. (Unless you use a bread machine where timing is more
>>> critical.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Not all yeasts can break down starches. If you leave out the sugar,
>> it may be necessary to do something else, like heavy kneading or
>> adding an enzyme, to break the starches enough for the yeast to
>> handle. It'll depend on what yeast blend is being used.
>
>
>
> That's no doubt true, but it's also not relevant. All bakers yeasts and
> all sourdough cultures I've heard of can break down starches into
> sugars, thus it is not necessary to add sugars in normal bread making.

I think that this is part of the question, as your wording suggests. I
too know of no bakers' blends that need sugar, but none of us has heard
of everything. What yeasts do we find in which blends? Are there old
baking practises that necessitate sugars or a bit of starch-breaking?
To what extent can we use sugars to hurry the rising along or change its
taste and texture?

Mike Avery wrote:
> anon k wrote:
>
>> Mike Avery wrote:
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
>>>> significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, you don't need to use sugar or honey to feed the yeast.
>>> They can break down the starches in flour very nicely and feed on
>>> that. If a recipe calls for a small amount of sugar, "to feed the
>>> yeast", just leave it out. You probably won't notice the
>>> difference. (Unless you use a bread machine where timing is more
>>> critical.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Not all yeasts can break down starches. If you leave out the sugar,
>> it may be necessary to do something else, like heavy kneading or
>> adding an enzyme, to break the starches enough for the yeast to
>> handle. It'll depend on what yeast blend is being used.
>
>
>
> That's no doubt true, but it's also not relevant. All bakers yeasts and
> all sourdough cultures I've heard of can break down starches into
> sugars, thus it is not necessary to add sugars in normal bread making.
>
> Mike
>

I think that the need for starch-decomposition raises a lot of questions
with practical consequences, as your wording suggests. I too know of no
bakers' blends that need added sugars, but none of us has heard of
everything, especially if baking in historical or geographically remote
areas is to be considered.

One clear reason for not needing to add sugar is that flour already
contains some. The dominant sugar in wheat flour is hexose. The yeast
consumes that rather than the starch, and will slow down once the sugars
have run out. This is the motive behind adding bread improver, which
breaks down starches into sugars that the yeast will act on more quickly.

Are there perhaps old baking practises that necessitate sugars or a bit
of starch-breaking? To what extent can we use sugars to control the
rate of rising or change its taste and texture? The original poster
noted that honey - predominantly levulose and dextrose - made the yeast
act faster, for example. That is explained by dextrose being easier for
yeast to metabolise.

What are the benefits of bread improver instead of extra sugars?

May a low-sugar flour composition perhaps explain why pizza dough was
traditionally risen overnight, while today only a few hours will suffice?

wrote:
> Hello, I am new to this egroup as well to "baking." I usually only
> make pizza and the occasional loaf of bread, though I am also
> interested in beer brewing...
>
>
> The point of my thread is simply to inquire if there is some
> significance in the type of "sugar" used for feeding the yeast. I
> typically use a few tablespoons of granular sugar(or what the recipe
> says); however, recently I used Honey and noticed a huge difference in
> the quality of the bread and the amount of rise. I'm assuming that
> honey is composed of less complex sugars and so its easier for the
> yeast to digest, but this is just an assumption. I am curious if
> anyone knows why this is or in fact if it is just coincidence. I'd
> also appreciate knowing what other people use, if they use an alternate
> sugar source.

You're guessing on the right track. Different sugars do get metabolised
at different rates, and to different products. I faintly remember from
a high school chemistry lab that yeast handles dextrose better than
anything else. We fermented a range of different sugars, then weighed
the varying amounts of alcohol produced. There must be a website that
gives an 'official' dataset, but I'm not sure how best to find it. A
Google search on "yeast dextrose" isn't any use.

Maybe we need a biochemist to fill in the details.