I have a good recipe for making an egg/raisin bread for Easter (white
bread), and it always comes out great, except that the bread is a bit
too weak and crumbly. A slice of it can fall apart on you while
eating, and if you try to butter it with anything but those spreads in
tubs, you usually just tear the slice into pieces trying to spread the
margarine.

Any advice on what to do to "toughen up" the bread? I've always used
all-purpose flour; would changing to a bread flour produce a stronger
loaf that holds together better?

Some particulars: 9 cups of flour, 2 yeast packages, 2 sticks of
butter, 5 eggs, other small items like salt and sugar and vanilla,
makes 3 loaves. I use the quick-rise yeast, might regular yeast make
the difference I'm looking for?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Tony

at Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:22:24 GMT in
>,
(Tony) wrote :

>I have a good recipe for making an egg/raisin bread for Easter (white
>bread), and it always comes out great, except that the bread is a bit
>too weak and crumbly. A slice of it can fall apart on you while
>eating, and if you try to butter it with anything but those spreads in
>tubs, you usually just tear the slice into pieces trying to spread the
>margarine.
>
>Any advice on what to do to "toughen up" the bread? I've always used
>all-purpose flour; would changing to a bread flour produce a stronger
>loaf that holds together better?
>
>Some particulars: 9 cups of flour, 2 yeast packages, 2 sticks of
>butter, 5 eggs, other small items like salt and sugar and vanilla,
>makes 3 loaves. I use the quick-rise yeast, might regular yeast make
>the difference I'm looking for?
>
>Thanks in advance for any advice!
>
>Tony
>

That's a lot of butter. Since butter is a shortening, it could potentially
make the dough crumbly by inhibiting gluten development when you knead.

However, of more importance - how much water are you using? Hydration has a
major impact on crumbliness and without good information on that it's hard
to tell whether it's contributing as a factor.

Furthermore, what's your specific method? Sometimes differences in method
will account for poor texture.
--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

"Alex Rast" > wrote in message
...
> at Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:22:24 GMT in
> >,
> (Tony) wrote :
>
> >I have a good recipe for making an egg/raisin bread for Easter (white
> >bread), and it always comes out great, except that the bread is a bit
> >too weak and crumbly. A slice of it can fall apart on you while
> >eating, and if you try to butter it with anything but those spreads in
> >tubs, you usually just tear the slice into pieces trying to spread the
> >margarine.
> >
> >Any advice on what to do to "toughen up" the bread? I've always used
> >all-purpose flour; would changing to a bread flour produce a stronger
> >loaf that holds together better?
> >
> >Some particulars: 9 cups of flour, 2 yeast packages, 2 sticks of
> >butter, 5 eggs, other small items like salt and sugar and vanilla,
> >makes 3 loaves. I use the quick-rise yeast, might regular yeast make
> >the difference I'm looking for?
> >
> >Thanks in advance for any advice!
> >
> >Tony
> >
>
> That's a lot of butter. Since butter is a shortening, it could potentially
> make the dough crumbly by inhibiting gluten development when you knead.
>
> However, of more importance - how much water are you using? Hydration has
a
> major impact on crumbliness and without good information on that it's hard
> to tell whether it's contributing as a factor.
>
> Furthermore, what's your specific method? Sometimes differences in method
> will account for poor texture.

I think it is the hydration also. There is a lot of butter, but the texture
of the final product would depend somewhat on whether the butter was added
early or late in the mixing process. This sounds like a recipe for brioche
to me.

"Alex Rast" > wrote in message
...
> at Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:22:24 GMT in
> >,
> (Tony) wrote :
>
> >I have a good recipe for making an egg/raisin bread for Easter (white
> >bread), and it always comes out great, except that the bread is a bit
> >too weak and crumbly. A slice of it can fall apart on you while
> >eating, and if you try to butter it with anything but those spreads in
> >tubs, you usually just tear the slice into pieces trying to spread the
> >margarine.
> >
> >Any advice on what to do to "toughen up" the bread? I've always used
> >all-purpose flour; would changing to a bread flour produce a stronger
> >loaf that holds together better?
> >
> >Some particulars: 9 cups of flour, 2 yeast packages, 2 sticks of
> >butter, 5 eggs, other small items like salt and sugar and vanilla,
> >makes 3 loaves. I use the quick-rise yeast, might regular yeast make
> >the difference I'm looking for?
> >
> >Thanks in advance for any advice!
> >
> >Tony
> >
>
> That's a lot of butter. Since butter is a shortening, it could potentially
> make the dough crumbly by inhibiting gluten development when you knead.
>
> However, of more importance - how much water are you using? Hydration has
a
> major impact on crumbliness and without good information on that it's hard
> to tell whether it's contributing as a factor.
>
> Furthermore, what's your specific method? Sometimes differences in method
> will account for poor texture.
> --
> Alex Rast
>
> (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

Yes, and switching to a higher gluten flour would certainly help. It's
pretty hard to develop enough gluten for a good chewy bread with AP flour.
That's why your local bakery doesn't use it for bread making.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

> > That's a lot of butter. Since butter is a shortening, it could potentially
> > make the dough crumbly by inhibiting gluten development when you knead.
> >
> > However, of more importance - how much water are you using? Hydration has
> a
> > major impact on crumbliness and without good information on that it's hard
> > to tell whether it's contributing as a factor.
> >
> > Furthermore, what's your specific method? Sometimes differences in method
> > will account for poor texture.
> > --
> > Alex Rast
> >
> > (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

Thanks - the liquid is 2 cups (1 1/2 cup milk, 1/2 cup water). My
method is the quick-rise yeast way. I mix the dry ingredients (7 cups
flour to start, 2 pkgs yeast, 1/2 cup sugar, 1 tsp salt, 1 3/4 cup
raisins), separate the 5 eggs and beat the yolks and whites separately
(reserve 1 yolk for glazing), and heat the liquids (1 1/2 cup milk,
1/2 cup water, 2 sticks butter, 2 tsp vanilla) to 125 degrees. Then
mix all together, add remaing 2 cups flour gradually till dough is
stiff, knead for about 15 minutes until the dough blisters and the
raisins are falling out as you knead. Let rise once, punch down, make
3 loaves, rise again, bake at 375 for 1/2 hour.

Tony

at Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:01:09 GMT in
>,
(Tony) wrote :

>> > That's a lot of butter. Since butter is a shortening, it could
>> > potentially make the dough crumbly by inhibiting gluten development
>> > when you knead.
>> >
>> > However, of more importance - how much water are you using?
>> > Hydration has
>> a
>> > major impact on crumbliness and without good information on that
>> > it's hard to tell whether it's contributing as a factor.
>> >
>> > Furthermore, what's your specific method? Sometimes differences in
>> > method will account for poor texture.
>> > --
>> > Alex Rast
>> >
>> > (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)
>
>Thanks - the liquid is 2 cups (1 1/2 cup milk, 1/2 cup water). My
>method is the quick-rise yeast way. I mix the dry ingredients (7 cups
>flour to start, 2 pkgs yeast, 1/2 cup sugar, 1 tsp salt, 1 3/4 cup
>raisins), separate the 5 eggs and beat the yolks and whites separately
>(reserve 1 yolk for glazing), and heat the liquids (1 1/2 cup milk,
>1/2 cup water, 2 sticks butter, 2 tsp vanilla) to 125 degrees. Then
>mix all together, add remaing 2 cups flour gradually till dough is
>stiff, knead for about 15 minutes until the dough blisters and the
>raisins are falling out as you knead. Let rise once, punch down, make
>3 loaves, rise again, bake at 375 for 1/2 hour.
>
>Tony
>

Yes, I suspect you have too little water. With most of the liquid being
milk, and a lot of flour in addition (7 cups), there's not that much water,
even with 5 eggs. The milk, btw, will also contribute to a crumbly texture,
especially if you're using full-fat milk. If the dough feels pretty dry
once you've finished kneading, as I suspect it does, then a crumbly loaf is
probably going to be the net result. You can add some more water at the
outset, perhaps upping the water content to 1 cup, but you won't want to
make it so sticky that you can't knead. I'd then fine-tune the water amount
at the end of the kneading, kneading in enough to give it a slightly moist
feel but not so that it's genuinely sticky or runny - I know the
consistency I'd aim for but am struggling for adjectives to describe it.

Anyway, experiment with water amounts and see where that gets you.
--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

> >Thanks - the liquid is 2 cups (1 1/2 cup milk, 1/2 cup water). My
> >method is the quick-rise yeast way. I mix the dry ingredients (7 cups
> >flour to start, 2 pkgs yeast, 1/2 cup sugar, 1 tsp salt, 1 3/4 cup
> >raisins), separate the 5 eggs and beat the yolks and whites separately
> >(reserve 1 yolk for glazing), and heat the liquids (1 1/2 cup milk,
> >1/2 cup water, 2 sticks butter, 2 tsp vanilla) to 125 degrees. Then
> >mix all together, add remaing 2 cups flour gradually till dough is
> >stiff, knead for about 15 minutes until the dough blisters and the
> >raisins are falling out as you knead. Let rise once, punch down, make
> >3 loaves, rise again, bake at 375 for 1/2 hour.
> >
> >Tony
> >
>
> Yes, I suspect you have too little water. With most of the liquid being
> milk, and a lot of flour in addition (7 cups), there's not that much water,
> even with 5 eggs. The milk, btw, will also contribute to a crumbly texture,
> especially if you're using full-fat milk. If the dough feels pretty dry
> once you've finished kneading, as I suspect it does, then a crumbly loaf is
> probably going to be the net result. You can add some more water at the
> outset, perhaps upping the water content to 1 cup, but you won't want to
> make it so sticky that you can't knead. I'd then fine-tune the water amount
> at the end of the kneading, kneading in enough to give it a slightly moist
> feel but not so that it's genuinely sticky or runny - I know the
> consistency I'd aim for but am struggling for adjectives to describe it.
>
> Anyway, experiment with water amounts and see where that gets you.


Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll experiment with using bread flour
instead of all-purpose, less fat, and more water, and see what works.

Tony