Could someone enlighten me please. I know, I know I should know I'm AA but I
need some facts. The inevitable joke about cats being served up as a Chinese
meal came up recently at another newsgroup. When I objected to it being
inappropriate as a joke, I was told the word "chow" meant food and that I
"should know that". As to why I was told this, I'm not sure if it was a
derogatory definition referring to dog meat.

Well -- I know that dog is served in Vietnam (e.g. in Corinne Trang's
cookbook), but honestly does the word "chow" have its roots in dog or cat??
I thought it to mean "stir fry" or "cook in a wok". I don't mean to get any
group mad at another but I'd like to find out from someone who's a bit more
knowledgeable on this subject.

"RLK" dashes_> wrote in message
...
> Could someone enlighten me please. I know, I know I should know I'm AA but
I
> need some facts. The inevitable joke about cats being served up as a
Chinese
> meal came up recently at another newsgroup. When I objected to it being
> inappropriate as a joke, I was told the word "chow" meant food and that I
> "should know that". As to why I was told this, I'm not sure if it was a
> derogatory definition referring to dog meat.
>
> Well -- I know that dog is served in Vietnam (e.g. in Corinne Trang's
> cookbook), but honestly does the word "chow" have its roots in dog or
cat??
> I thought it to mean "stir fry" or "cook in a wok". I don't mean to get
any
> group mad at another but I'd like to find out from someone who's a bit
more
> knowledgeable on this subject.
>

I always understood that Chow Mein was a respectable Chinese dish, if a
casual one, using fried parboiled noodles. I don't know the formal
definition of "chow" but "mein" refers to noodles like in Lo Mein etc. so
"chow" probably means something like "fried". I don't think the dish was
invented in California like Chop Suey :-)


--
James V. Silverton
Potomac, Maryland, USA

James Silverton wrote:

> "RLK" dashes_> wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Could someone enlighten me please. I know, I know I should know I'm AA but
>>
> I
>
>>need some facts. The inevitable joke about cats being served up as a
>>
> Chinese
>
>>meal came up recently at another newsgroup. When I objected to it being
>>inappropriate as a joke, I was told the word "chow" meant food and that I
>>"should know that". As to why I was told this, I'm not sure if it was a
>>derogatory definition referring to dog meat.
>>
>>Well -- I know that dog is served in Vietnam (e.g. in Corinne Trang's
>>cookbook), but honestly does the word "chow" have its roots in dog or
>>
> cat??
>
>>I thought it to mean "stir fry" or "cook in a wok". I don't mean to get
>>
> any
>
>>group mad at another but I'd like to find out from someone who's a bit
>>
> more
>
>>knowledgeable on this subject.
>>
>>
>
> I always understood that Chow Mein was a respectable Chinese dish, if a
> casual one, using fried parboiled noodles. I don't know the formal
> definition of "chow" but "mein" refers to noodles like in Lo Mein etc. so
> "chow" probably means something like "fried". I don't think the dish was
> invented in California like Chop Suey :-)

I believe you are correct. Chow Foon is fried flat noodles. Chow Fahn
is fried rice.

--
Dan

"Dan Logcher" > wrote in message
...
> James Silverton wrote:
> > >
> > I always understood that Chow Mein was a respectable Chinese dish, if a
> > casual one, using fried parboiled noodles. I don't know the formal
> > definition of "chow" but "mein" refers to noodles like in Lo Mein etc.
so
> > "chow" probably means something like "fried". I don't think the dish was
> > invented in California like Chop Suey :-)
>
> I believe you are correct. Chow Foon is fried flat noodles. Chow Fahn
> is fried rice.
>
> --
> Dan


Now you've got me interested! I found an entry for chow mein on
http://zhongwen.com/

In addition to the characters and transliteration, chaomian is given for
"fried noodles" or "chow mein". Part of chao is derived from the character
for "fire" so it certainly fits.

Jim.

In ,
RLK dashes_> typed:

> Could someone enlighten me please. I know, I know I should know
I'm
> AA but I need some facts. The inevitable joke about cats being
served
> up as a Chinese meal came up recently at another newsgroup.
When I
> objected to it being inappropriate as a joke, I was told the
word
> "chow" meant food and that I "should know that". As to why I
was told
> this, I'm not sure if it was a derogatory definition referring
to dog
> meat.


There seems to be no agreement at all on the word's etymology.
Here are what some of the major dictionaries say:

The OED says "Food, or a meal of, of any kind. This sense is
supposed to be due to the use of the chow ('the edible dog of
China') as food by poor Chinese."

The American Heritage Dictionary says "Pidgin English, probably
from Mandarin Chinese cha'o, to stir, fry cook."

Merriam Webster say " "perhaps from CHinese (Peking) chiao, meat
dumplings."

And Random House refrains from speculating on any etymology at
all.

Given that lack of agreement, it's clear that nobody knows, and
personally I choose not to believe any of the speculation.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

In Cantonese 'Chow' with the 2nd PinYin intonation means fry for eg. chow
meen(fried noodles) or chow farn(fried riced)
In Mandarin it's 'Chao' with the 3rd PinYin intonation. In other Chinese
dialects from the south like Fujian/Hokkien or TeowChu it's more like Char.
It (the pronouciation) varies all over China depending on your dialect
group. My guess is that the Cantonese, whose cuisine is probably the best
known & travelled of all the Chinese cuisine outside Asia is where the
term/word "Chow", as it exists in American English is derived from. The
Cantonese dialect from southern China (Canton/Guandong province) is the most
prominant in that area. It is also the main dialect spoken in HongKong & due
to HK's historical ties with the UK & from there onwards, to the rest of the
Western world after 1945/WW2, i would assume that's where many people picked
up on the term/word "Chow". I remember seeing many Technicolor American
movies set during WW2 where sailors would often use the word "Chow" meaning
food or to eat. Perhaps the merchant navy & sailors did popularise the word
"Chow" from their many stopovers in HK or Asia where Cantonese is still
quite dominant. Or maybe it has an earlier entry into American English with
the International Settlement in Shanghai.

From a Chinese person's perspective, it's easy for a Chinaman to read a
written Chinese character or word like Fry as in "Chow or Chao" but to
understand each other's spoken dialect is not easy when it is pronounced
differently, sometimes with vast pronouciation differences depending on
where you're from. That's why Mandarin is the official spoken tongue in
China. Even this has regional differences esp. from the north to the south.
A typical example would be to hear someone from Beijing & compare this to
someone from lets say coastal Shanghai & again compare someone from maybe
the south western province. Anyway.... i'm getting off track here & it's on
hell of a history lesson.

DC.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:42:09 -0000, "joe" > wrote:

>In Cantonese 'Chow' with the 2nd PinYin intonation means fry for eg. chow
>meen(fried noodles) or chow farn(fried riced)
>In Mandarin ....
<snip>
>
>From a Chinese person's perspective, it's easy for a Chinaman to read a
>written Chinese character or word like Fry as in "Chow or Chao" but to
>understand each other's spoken dialect is not easy when it is pronounced
>differently, sometimes with vast pronouciation differences depending on
>where you're from.
[...]

> Anyway.... i'm getting off track here & it's on
>hell of a history lesson.

With a language that also relies on tonal distinctions, it's a wonder
*anyone* can be understood when he has a cold! The 'chop' of chop
suey, upon brief research, seems to be similarly ambiguous. Chop as
food; chop-chop as quickly. Chop as what English-speakers would call
stri-fry prep. Gerald Durrell uses 'chop' as pidgin for 'food' or even
'food ingredient' in East Africa. Ain't humans fun?

"joe" > wrote in message
> In Cantonese 'Chow' with the 2nd PinYin intonation means fry for eg. chow
> meen(fried noodles) or chow farn(fried riced)

"Chow" is just a sound. You cannot be sure of the meaning of it. In
Chinese, because all words have only one syllable, there are a lot of
"homonyms" - words that are written differently, have different
meaning, but which sound exactly the same. (A childhood game is to
write out sentences with completely different characters then the
original so it reads the same but is total nonsense - bonus marks if
the new words actually mean something!)

One method of input in a Chinese word processor is to type the way it
sounds in English, then pick from a list of characters that sound
exactly the same. For "chaau", I found stirfry, copy, noisy, nest,
cash. When written, you can of course tell at a glance what it means.
When spoken, it all depends on context. ("Chaau sau", or "copy hand",
is a special northern wonton with a strange name, which is probably
what the "dumplings" in another post refers to.)

Compounded to this is the fact that to a foreigner's ears, different
sounds in Chinese may seem close enough that they would think they are
the same, and transcribe to the same English sounds. For example,
"chau" is a different sound, which may mean Autumn, stinky, jailed,
ugly, clown... No Cantonese person would mix "chaau" and "chau" up,
but in all likelyhood an English person would transcribe both of these
into "chow". Some similar sounds are "chiu" - dynasty, tide, face
towards, super ... or "jiu" - a surname, call, banana, pepper, chew...
This last one may even be the original "inspiration" for chow! who
knows...

> From a Chinese person's perspective, it's easy for a Chinaman to [...]

Be careful, "chinaman" is now an offensive term, like "******".

> "Chow" is just a sound. You cannot be sure of the meaning of it.

That's why i've included the PinYin in an attempt to help anyone reading it
to have a better idea as to how it should sound & perhaps matching it like
i've done with rice or noodles to make it clearer.

> In
> Chinese, because all words have only one syllable, there are a lot of
> "homonyms" - words that are written differently, have different
> meaning, but which sound exactly the same. (A childhood game is to
> write out sentences with completely different characters then the
> original so it reads the same but is total nonsense - bonus marks if
> the new words actually mean something!)

Yes i've played that game before but was never any good at it, often making
up something totally bizarre & having a good laugh at it.

> One method of input in a Chinese word processor is to type the way it
> sounds in English, then pick from a list of characters that sound
> exactly the same. For "chaau", I found stirfry, copy, noisy, nest,
> cash. When written, you can of course tell at a glance what it means.
> When spoken, it all depends on context. ("Chaau sau", or "copy hand",
> is a special northern wonton with a strange name, which is probably
> what the "dumplings" in another post refers to.)

I've not got a Chinese word processor but i'm curious as to what you've
described above. What happens when you type in 'Chow' as that's the way i
would spell it in English for the Cantonese word for stirfry/fry. And also
what would happen when you type in 'Chao' as that's how i would spell it in
English for the Mandarin pronunciation. What about 'Char' or 'Chaar' in the
Fujian or TeowChu dialects? do you still get the same answers as above?
Hmmm... i might have to get a Chinese word processor & have a go at it,
sounds interesting.

> Compounded to this is the fact that to a foreigner's ears, different
> sounds in Chinese may seem close enough that they would think they are
> the same, and transcribe to the same English sounds. For example,
> "chau" is a different sound, which may mean Autumn, stinky, jailed,
> ugly, clown... No Cantonese person would mix "chaau" and "chau" up,
> but in all likelyhood an English person would transcribe both of these
> into "chow".

Well this Cantonese speaking person prefers to spells it 'Chow' but would
also spell it 'Chau' although i'm reluctant to, as not many native English
speakers would be familiar with the way Chinese people use 'au' as in
'Chau'. Here's an example, the 'au' used in a Chinese surname like Mr Lau
would be pronouced totally different to the 'au' used in a woman's name like
Laura as in Laura Ashley. However, a native Spanish speaker would pronouce
the 'au' in Laura just the same as a Chinese person would... with an 'ow'
like in owl. Funny isn't it.

As for 'Chaau' where you've add the extra 'a' extending the end of the word,
i would personally associate this with speaking loudly or putting a stress
or emphasis, which is correct as many Cantonese people do speak very loudly
& some may say crudely as well. If i was in a very busy & noisy rest. in
HongKong, i'd go even futher with something like this 'Chaaao Meen Ahh!' -
at the top of my voice just to let the waiter know that it's fried noodles i
want & i want it Now! But many English speakers would find the extra 'a' in
'Chaau' an added confusion to the already puzzling 'au' in 'Chau'. Well
that's my opinion anyway. By the way Tippi, how would you spell it if you
were softly spoken in Cantonese or did not want to put a stress on it, would
you still spell it as 'Chaau' or would you shorten it 'Chau' or 'Chow'?


> > From a Chinese person's perspective, it's easy for a Chinaman to [...]
>
> Be careful, "chinaman" is now an offensive term, like "******".

Now that's new to me, I'm Chinese & i've never found that 'Chinaman' to be
offensive but if used in a certain way, i'd find it derogatory but not
offensive. While 'Chingky' or 'Chinky' as used here in the UK, i find this
more offensive than 'Chinaman' as it's shorten & used in a similar fashion
to 'Paki' or '******'. So it looks like i'll have to watch my words when
conversing to a global audience on the net. Apologies if i've ****ed anyone
off.

DC. (displaced.chinaman - it's True! i am geographically displaced & i am
Chinese)

"DC." > wrote in message
...
[...]
> > > From a Chinese person's perspective, it's easy for a Chinaman to [...]
> >
> > Be careful, "chinaman" is now an offensive term, like "******".
>
> Now that's new to me, I'm Chinese & i've never found that 'Chinaman' to be
> offensive but if used in a certain way, i'd find it derogatory but not
> offensive. While 'Chingky' or 'Chinky' as used here in the UK, i find this
> more offensive than 'Chinaman' as it's shorten & used in a similar fashion
> to 'Paki' or '******'. So it looks like i'll have to watch my words when
> conversing to a global audience on the net. Apologies if i've ****ed
anyone
> off.
>
> DC. (displaced.chinaman - it's True! i am geographically displaced & i am
> Chinese)


DC, Tippi is right. I was shocked you wrote that -- I thought it was Joe
who wrote it.

Peter

"DC." > wrote
> > "Chow" is just a sound. You cannot be sure of the meaning of it.
>
> That's why i've included the PinYin in an attempt to help anyone reading it
> to have a better idea as to how it should sound & perhaps matching it like
> i've done with rice or noodles to make it clearer.

well the subject is about "the word chow", which may or may not be the
one in "chow mein".

> I've not got a Chinese word processor but i'm curious as to what you've
> described above.

I use Southern Star. You can download a demo version at
http://www.njstar.com

> What happens when you type in 'Chow' as that's the way i
> would spell it in English for the Cantonese word for stirfry/fry.

and how would you spell the sound for "Autumn"?

> As for 'Chaau' where you've add the extra 'a' extending the end of the word,

This is using the "Lee's Cantonese pingyam" method used in NJStar, to
represent the "long a" versus the "short a" (as in the A sound in "ah
right" vs. "a right")

Peter Dy wrote:
>DC, Tippi is right. I was shocked you wrote that -- I thought it was
Joe
>who wrote it.

Peter, check the message by "joe", it's also signed "DC."

Thanks for all the great replies -- I'm still digesting all the comments on
this thread. I'm amazed how much I'd forgotten, or need a refresher course
for... most helpful (especially the information about the Western usage of
the word "chow").

Aside from A. Zee's book, Swallowing Clouds on how to read chinese menus,
are there any comparable books on Chinese food and its history?


"joe" > wrote in message
...
> In Cantonese 'Chow' with the 2nd PinYin intonation means fry for eg. chow
> meen(fried noodles) or chow farn(fried riced)
> In Mandarin it's 'Chao' with the 3rd PinYin intonation. In other Chinese
> dialects from the south like Fujian/Hokkien or TeowChu it's more like
Char.
> It (the pronouciation) varies all over China depending on your dialect
> group. My guess is that the Cantonese, whose cuisine is probably the best
> known & travelled of all the Chinese cuisine outside Asia is where the
> term/word "Chow", as it exists in American English is derived from. The
> Cantonese dialect from southern China (Canton/Guandong province) is the
most
> prominant in that area. It is also the main dialect spoken in HongKong &
due
> to HK's historical ties with the UK & from there onwards, to the rest of
the
> Western world after 1945/WW2, i would assume that's where many people
picked
> up on the term/word "Chow". I remember seeing many Technicolor American
> movies set during WW2 where sailors would often use the word "Chow"
meaning
> food or to eat. Perhaps the merchant navy & sailors did popularise the
word
> "Chow" from their many stopovers in HK or Asia where Cantonese is still
> quite dominant. Or maybe it has an earlier entry into American English
with
> the International Settlement in Shanghai.
>
> From a Chinese person's perspective, it's easy for a Chinaman to read a
> written Chinese character or word like Fry as in "Chow or Chao" but to
> understand each other's spoken dialect is not easy when it is pronounced
> differently, sometimes with vast pronouciation differences depending on
> where you're from. That's why Mandarin is the official spoken tongue in
> China. Even this has regional differences esp. from the north to the
south.
> A typical example would be to hear someone from Beijing & compare this to
> someone from lets say coastal Shanghai & again compare someone from maybe
> the south western province. Anyway.... i'm getting off track here & it's
on
> hell of a history lesson.
>
> DC.
>
>

"RLK" dashes_> wrote in message >...
> does the word "chow" have its roots in dog or cat??
> I thought it to mean "stir fry" or "cook in a wok".

That's what it means in Chinese. But I checked dictionary.com, and
found

Chow: slang = food
[Possibly from Chinese (Cantonese) "tsaap", food, miscellany. See chop
suey.]

Chow: Any of a breed of heavyset dog [...] Also called chow chow.
[Possibly from Chinese (Cantonese) "gou", dog.]

Chow: informal, food. [syn: chuck]

Take your pick :-)

BTW AFAIK neither cat nor dog are stir fried; they are mostly stewed.
Also to me "tsaap" only means "miscellany, mixed".

Speaking as a full blood Chinese who's family came from the Canton
region some generations back,
we've always used the term "Chow" to mean to stir-fry. As far as I know
the dish known as "Chow Mein" is a general term used for any dish that
incorporates
noodles in a stirfry. The term "Chop Suey" is an invention by early
chinese cooks in america for a concoction more suited to the western
palate and because chinese vegetables & other ingredients were not
available at the time.

Regards,
Kim