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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

The name(s) Borodinsky, Borodin, Borodino.



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 23-07-2005, 05:02 PM
Ron
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Default The name(s) Borodinsky, Borodin, Borodino.

What should "Borodinsky" bread really be called in English? This
subject comes up occasionally, and there are actually three possible
choices for the English name, although only one possiblity exists in
Russian. These are the three possible choices in English and the
reasons for each.

1. Borodin bread.
One of the theories of this bread's origin is that it was first
invented by the composer/chemist Borodin, during a trip to Italy. This
has been disputed on the theory that Italy does not have rye breads and
that he'd be unlikely to be thinking about that during a trip to Italy.

2. Borodino bread.
Another theory is that the bread is named after the famous village of
Borodino, where a great battle between Napoleon and Kutuzov was fought
in 1812.

3. Borodinsky bread.
This uses the Russian adjectival suffix in English. The Russian word
"Borodinsky" is ambiguous, since it could be derived either from the
surname Borodin or the place-name Borodino. The problem here is that
the normal English adjective would not use the -sky suffix, but would
be identical to either the noun Borodin or Borodino.

In other words, the Russian term can maintain the useful ambiguity, but
the best sounding English term must make it explicit that you subscribe
to Theory #1 or Theory #2. If you speak English, but absolutely refuse
to choose between these two theories, your only choice is to copy the
Russian term, using the adjectival suffix that doesn't exactly fit in
English.

I am on record for preferring more than one of the above choices. The
real answer is that we will only be able to decide when we know which
of the two theories is really correct.

In other words, the jury is still out, but I'm keeping my eye open for
more information.

Ron

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 23-07-2005, 07:13 PM
Roy
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Default

Well ....Borondinsky bread regardless of the origin of its nomenclature
is still a good bread to me.....In fact whenever I pass a good Russian
Style Deli shop anywhere in the world I usually buy such bread with
along with sausages, caviar, pickles g.
The bread quality may vary from shop to shop, but usually if its from a
Jewish Russian proprietor that bread is really good.
Roy

  #3 (permalink)  
Old 25-07-2005, 03:52 AM
Jonathan Kandell
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Roy, how much does the amount of corriander vary from Borodinsky to
Borodinsky? How much does the sweetness vary? I was surprised how
much sugar, in addition to malt and molasses, was in the recipe.

  #4 (permalink)  
Old 25-07-2005, 06:07 AM
Ron
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According to the state standard GOST 5309-50, the flour and malt
percentages of Borodinsky bread are set out as specific percentages
(rye 85, wheat 15, malt 5) and the ingredients sugar and syrup are also
specified, but I did not see specific percentages of sugar and syrup in
the official standard
(http://www.borodinsky.com/standart/g...st5309-50.html).

All of the published recipes I have seen, however, specify 6 kilos of
sugar and 4 kilos of syrup per 100 kilos of flour.

Those ingredients could be removed, but then the bread would have a
different name, since the Borodinsky standard implied something
specific. Borodinsky is only one of dozens of Russian dark breads.

For example, Moscow, Minsk and some subtypes of Riga bread have totally
different flour percentages and don't list sugar and syrup as
ingredients.

I have posted a scan of full table (in Russian) which lists the major
rye breads and their ingredient percentages, at:
http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/royter_table.pdf. (Sorry, I don't have
time to translate it now.)

Ron

  #5 (permalink)  
Old 25-07-2005, 07:33 PM
Roy
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Default

how much does the amount of corriander vary from Borodinsky to
Borodinsky? How much does the sweetness vary? I was surprised how
much sugar, in addition to malt and molasses, was in the recipe.


Jon Unfortunately I am not exactly aware as I don't bake such bread;
I only buy them I. But what I noticed that taste fluctuate.... ..some
are more spicy, others are sweeter, , others have distinct
nuttiness...etc.

have posted a scan of full table (in Russian) which lists the major
rye breads and their ingredient percentages, at:


Ron that link looks interesting but unfortunately I cannot read or
understand the Cyrillic alphabet. ( Russian) Is it possible to have a
satisfactory translation for such?
http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/royter_table.pdf
http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/royter_table.pdf
Roy

  #6 (permalink)  
Old 28-07-2005, 12:28 AM
Ron
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Default

OK, I did it.
Translation: http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/Russian_bread_table.pdf

Original: http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/royter_table.pdf

 




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