The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
As well, here is the URL for the original article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
Happy Thanksgiving,
Kent

BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.


INGREDIENTS:
1 turkey, about 12 pounds

Brine

1 cup sugar

2 cups kosher salt

2 1/2 gallons cold water

2 bay leaves, torn into pieces

1 bunch fresh thyme

1 head of garlic, cloves separated and peeled

5 whole allspice berries, crushed

4 juniper berries, smashed (see Note)

Roasting

2 tablespoons softened butter + butter for basting

1 1/2 teaspoons freshly ground pepper

1 cup chicken stock, or more as needed

INSTRUCTIONS: Brining: Clean the turkey by removing the giblet bag, any
extra internal fat and any pin feathers. Rinse well under cold tap
water.

Combine sugar, salt and 3 to 4 quarts of the cold water in a large bowl.
Stir until sugar and salt dissolve, then add the bay leaves, thyme,
garlic, allspice and juniper berries. Double-bag two heavy-duty,
unscented, trash bags (not made of recycled materials), then put them in
an ice chest that is large enough to hold the turkey. Place turkey in
the doubled bags, pour in the brine, then the remaining 1 1/2 gallons
cold water -- there should be enough liquid to completely submerge the
bird. Press out all the air in the bags, then tightly close each bag
separately. Keep the turkey cold with bags of ice, which also help keep
it submerged in the brine. Brine for 12 to 24 hours.

Alternate method: Instead of using an ice chest, place the turkey and
brine in a large pan or bowl and refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours. If the
turkey floats to the top, weight it down with a plate and cans to keep
it completely submerged.

Roasting: Preheat the oven to 400°. Remove the turkey from the brine,
rinse and dry well. Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter over the skin
and sprinkle pepper over the skin and in the cavity. Tuck the wing tips
under, loosely truss the legs and place the turkey on a V-shaped rack in
a roasting pan. Tent breast with foil and place turkey in the oven.

Roasting note: To assure that the bird cooks evenly, rotate the roasting
pan 180 degrees every 30 minutes while the turkey is in the oven.

Roast for about 1 hour, remove the foil and baste the turkey with 1/2
cup stock. Return to the oven and roast, basting with pan drippings and
more stock (if desired) every 20 minutes. Start checking the internal
temperature after about 1 hour of roasting time. If the legs begin to
get too brown, cover them loosely with foil. Roast the turkey until the
internal thigh temperature reaches 165°. Total roasting time should be
about 2 to 2 3/4 hours.

Let rest at least 20 to 30 minutes before carving.

Kent H. wrote:
> The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle.

Kent,

This is the article that got me started (when it was originally published in
1999 or 1998) and I really love the results. The only change I made is
that we do not have allspice berries here in Italy and I add lemon rind but
other than that I stick to the recipe and love it.

Cristina

Hark! I heard "Kent H." > say:

> The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
> dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
> brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
> credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
> Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
> than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.

Thanks for the article -- I'm brining a turkey for the first time for
Christmas dinner, and all the recent huh-bub about salt quantity had me
nervous...

> As well, here is the URL for the original article:
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...e/2003/11/19/F
> DG71316TG1.DTL


--
j.j. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!

Kent H. wrote:

> The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
> dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
> brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
> credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.=20
> Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even les=
s
> than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
> As well, here is the URL for the original article:
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...e/archive/200=
3/11/19/FDG71316TG1.DTL
> Happy Thanksgiving,
> Kent
>=20
> BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
> After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
> found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
> salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
> published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.=20

Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?

Oh.

Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I=20
say let 'em fight it out.

Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on=20
brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest=20
reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40=20
brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:=20
<http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=3Diwm>

There are several other issues the piece raises:
1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more=20
purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.

2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.=20
There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will=20
consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the=20
oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't=20
contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening=20
the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which=20
also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked=20
without overcooking the outside.

I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,=20
huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all=20
live happily ever after.

Pastorio


> INGREDIENTS:
> 1 turkey, about 12 pounds=20
>=20
> Brine=20
>=20
> 1 cup sugar=20
>=20
> 2 cups kosher salt=20
>=20
> 2 1/2 gallons cold water=20
>=20
> 2 bay leaves, torn into pieces=20
>=20
> 1 bunch fresh thyme=20
>=20
> 1 head of garlic, cloves separated and peeled=20
>=20
> 5 whole allspice berries, crushed=20
>=20
> 4 juniper berries, smashed (see Note)=20
>=20
> Roasting=20
>=20
> 2 tablespoons softened butter + butter for basting=20
>=20
> 1 1/2 teaspoons freshly ground pepper=20
>=20
> 1 cup chicken stock, or more as needed=20
>=20
> INSTRUCTIONS: Brining: Clean the turkey by removing the giblet bag, any=

> extra internal fat and any pin feathers. Rinse well under cold tap
> water.=20
>=20
> Combine sugar, salt and 3 to 4 quarts of the cold water in a large bowl=
=2E
> Stir until sugar and salt dissolve, then add the bay leaves, thyme,
> garlic, allspice and juniper berries. Double-bag two heavy-duty,
> unscented, trash bags (not made of recycled materials), then put them i=
n
> an ice chest that is large enough to hold the turkey. Place turkey in
> the doubled bags, pour in the brine, then the remaining 1 1/2 gallons
> cold water -- there should be enough liquid to completely submerge the
> bird. Press out all the air in the bags, then tightly close each bag
> separately. Keep the turkey cold with bags of ice, which also help keep=

> it submerged in the brine. Brine for 12 to 24 hours.=20
>=20
> Alternate method: Instead of using an ice chest, place the turkey and
> brine in a large pan or bowl and refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours. If the=

> turkey floats to the top, weight it down with a plate and cans to keep
> it completely submerged.=20
>=20
> Roasting: Preheat the oven to 400=B0. Remove the turkey from the brine,=

> rinse and dry well. Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter over the skin
> and sprinkle pepper over the skin and in the cavity. Tuck the wing tips=

> under, loosely truss the legs and place the turkey on a V-shaped rack i=
n
> a roasting pan. Tent breast with foil and place turkey in the oven.=20
>=20
> Roasting note: To assure that the bird cooks evenly, rotate the roastin=
g
> pan 180 degrees every 30 minutes while the turkey is in the oven.=20
>=20
> Roast for about 1 hour, remove the foil and baste the turkey with 1/2
> cup stock. Return to the oven and roast, basting with pan drippings and=

> more stock (if desired) every 20 minutes. Start checking the internal
> temperature after about 1 hour of roasting time. If the legs begin to
> get too brown, cover them loosely with foil. Roast the turkey until the=

> internal thigh temperature reaches 165=B0. Total roasting time should b=
e
> about 2 to 2 3/4 hours.=20
>=20
> Let rest at least 20 to 30 minutes before carving.

This, from Pam Anderson, whose article you referred to:

"HOW TO BRINE OVERNIGHT:
Before brining, remove the giblets, neck, and tail piece and
reserve for gravy. To brine overnight, dissolve 1 cup table salt or 2
cups kosher salt in 2 gallons cold water in a large stockpot or clean
bucket (whatever you use, it should be 6-8 gallons), submerge the bird
in the solution, and refrigerate for 8 to 12 hours."

As I have repeatedly pointed out, Pam, Alice and I use .5 cup table
salt, or its equivalent, 1 cup kosher salt to 1 gallon water to form the
foundation of the brine.
And that's that.

Kent



Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
>
> > The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
> > dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
> > brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
> > credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
> > Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
> > than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
> > As well, here is the URL for the original article:
> > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
> > Happy Thanksgiving,
> > Kent
> >
> > BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
> > After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
> > found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
> > salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
> > published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.
>
> Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?
>
> Oh.
>
> Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
> say let 'em fight it out.
>
> Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
> brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
> reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
> brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
> <http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm>
>
> There are several other issues the piece raises:
> 1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
> purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.
>
> 2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
> There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
> consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
> oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
> contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
> the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
> also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
> without overcooking the outside.
>
> I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
> huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
> live happily ever after.
>
> Pastorio
>
> > INGREDIENTS:
> > 1 turkey, about 12 pounds
> >
> > Brine
> >
> > 1 cup sugar
> >
> > 2 cups kosher salt
> >
> > 2 1/2 gallons cold water
> >
> > 2 bay leaves, torn into pieces
> >
> > 1 bunch fresh thyme
> >
> > 1 head of garlic, cloves separated and peeled
> >
> > 5 whole allspice berries, crushed
> >
> > 4 juniper berries, smashed (see Note)
> >
> > Roasting
> >
> > 2 tablespoons softened butter + butter for basting
> >
> > 1 1/2 teaspoons freshly ground pepper
> >
> > 1 cup chicken stock, or more as needed
> >
> > INSTRUCTIONS: Brining: Clean the turkey by removing the giblet bag, any
> > extra internal fat and any pin feathers. Rinse well under cold tap
> > water.
> >
> > Combine sugar, salt and 3 to 4 quarts of the cold water in a large bowl.
> > Stir until sugar and salt dissolve, then add the bay leaves, thyme,
> > garlic, allspice and juniper berries. Double-bag two heavy-duty,
> > unscented, trash bags (not made of recycled materials), then put them in
> > an ice chest that is large enough to hold the turkey. Place turkey in
> > the doubled bags, pour in the brine, then the remaining 1 1/2 gallons
> > cold water -- there should be enough liquid to completely submerge the
> > bird. Press out all the air in the bags, then tightly close each bag
> > separately. Keep the turkey cold with bags of ice, which also help keep
> > it submerged in the brine. Brine for 12 to 24 hours.
> >
> > Alternate method: Instead of using an ice chest, place the turkey and
> > brine in a large pan or bowl and refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours. If the
> > turkey floats to the top, weight it down with a plate and cans to keep
> > it completely submerged.
> >
> > Roasting: Preheat the oven to 400°. Remove the turkey from the brine,
> > rinse and dry well. Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter over the skin
> > and sprinkle pepper over the skin and in the cavity. Tuck the wing tips
> > under, loosely truss the legs and place the turkey on a V-shaped rack in
> > a roasting pan. Tent breast with foil and place turkey in the oven.
> >
> > Roasting note: To assure that the bird cooks evenly, rotate the roasting
> > pan 180 degrees every 30 minutes while the turkey is in the oven.
> >
> > Roast for about 1 hour, remove the foil and baste the turkey with 1/2
> > cup stock. Return to the oven and roast, basting with pan drippings and
> > more stock (if desired) every 20 minutes. Start checking the internal
> > temperature after about 1 hour of roasting time. If the legs begin to
> > get too brown, cover them loosely with foil. Roast the turkey until the
> > internal thigh temperature reaches 165°. Total roasting time should be
> > about 2 to 2 3/4 hours.
> >
> > Let rest at least 20 to 30 minutes before carving.

In article >,
Bob Pastorio > wrote:


--snip--

>Opening
> the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
> also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
> without overcooking the outside.

Sounds interesting. Could you elaborate on this, please?

How often, how long, etc.

Isaac

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
>
> > The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
> > dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
> > brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
> > credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
> > Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
> > than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
> > As well, here is the URL for the original article:
> > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
> > Happy Thanksgiving,
> > Kent
> >
> > BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
> > After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
> > found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
> > salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
> > published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.
>
> Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?
>
> Oh.
>
> Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
> say let 'em fight it out.
>
> Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
> brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
> reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
> brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
> <http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm>
>
> There are several other issues the piece raises:
> 1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
> purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.
>
> 2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
> There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
> consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
> oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
> contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
> the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
> also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
> without overcooking the outside.

What a bunch of cerebral crap!
>
> I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
> huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
> live happily ever after.
>
> Pastorio
>
> > INGREDIENTS:
> > 1 turkey, about 12 pounds
> >
> > Brine
> >
> > 1 cup sugar
> >
> > 2 cups kosher salt
> >
> > 2 1/2 gallons cold water
> >
> > 2 bay leaves, torn into pieces
> >
> > 1 bunch fresh thyme
> >
> > 1 head of garlic, cloves separated and peeled
> >
> > 5 whole allspice berries, crushed
> >
> > 4 juniper berries, smashed (see Note)
> >
> > Roasting
> >
> > 2 tablespoons softened butter + butter for basting
> >
> > 1 1/2 teaspoons freshly ground pepper
> >
> > 1 cup chicken stock, or more as needed
> >
> > INSTRUCTIONS: Brining: Clean the turkey by removing the giblet bag, any
> > extra internal fat and any pin feathers. Rinse well under cold tap
> > water.
> >
> > Combine sugar, salt and 3 to 4 quarts of the cold water in a large bowl.
> > Stir until sugar and salt dissolve, then add the bay leaves, thyme,
> > garlic, allspice and juniper berries. Double-bag two heavy-duty,
> > unscented, trash bags (not made of recycled materials), then put them in
> > an ice chest that is large enough to hold the turkey. Place turkey in
> > the doubled bags, pour in the brine, then the remaining 1 1/2 gallons
> > cold water -- there should be enough liquid to completely submerge the
> > bird. Press out all the air in the bags, then tightly close each bag
> > separately. Keep the turkey cold with bags of ice, which also help keep
> > it submerged in the brine. Brine for 12 to 24 hours.
> >
> > Alternate method: Instead of using an ice chest, place the turkey and
> > brine in a large pan or bowl and refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours. If the
> > turkey floats to the top, weight it down with a plate and cans to keep
> > it completely submerged.
> >
> > Roasting: Preheat the oven to 400°. Remove the turkey from the brine,
> > rinse and dry well. Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter over the skin
> > and sprinkle pepper over the skin and in the cavity. Tuck the wing tips
> > under, loosely truss the legs and place the turkey on a V-shaped rack in
> > a roasting pan. Tent breast with foil and place turkey in the oven.
> >
> > Roasting note: To assure that the bird cooks evenly, rotate the roasting
> > pan 180 degrees every 30 minutes while the turkey is in the oven.
> >
> > Roast for about 1 hour, remove the foil and baste the turkey with 1/2
> > cup stock. Return to the oven and roast, basting with pan drippings and
> > more stock (if desired) every 20 minutes. Start checking the internal
> > temperature after about 1 hour of roasting time. If the legs begin to
> > get too brown, cover them loosely with foil. Roast the turkey until the
> > internal thigh temperature reaches 165°. Total roasting time should be
> > about 2 to 2 3/4 hours.
> >
> > Let rest at least 20 to 30 minutes before carving.

Kent H. wrote:

>
> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>>Kent H. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
>>>dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
>>>brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
>>>credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
>>>Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
>>>than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
>>>As well, here is the URL for the original article:
>>>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
>>>Happy Thanksgiving,
>>>Kent
>>>
>>>BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
>>>After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
>>>found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
>>>salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
>>>published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.
>>
>>Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?
>>
>>Oh.
>>
>>Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
>>say let 'em fight it out.
>>
>>Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
>>brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
>>reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
>>brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
>><http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm>
>>
>>There are several other issues the piece raises:
>>1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
>>purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.
>>
>>2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
>>There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
>>consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
>>oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
>>contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
>>the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
>>also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
>>without overcooking the outside.

> What a bunch of cerebral crap!

Thanks, Kent. Your scholarly approach and depth of knowledge are
simply effusive and a fine example to all and sundaes. It's a delight
to sit at the feet of a genuine mastic who delves as widely as yours.

Cerebral crap, indeed. It would seem that anything beyond your meager
capacity isn't there. It's your cute way of sticking your fingers in
your ears and chanting La-la-la-la-la, I can't hear you....

>>I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
>>huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
>>live happily ever after.

It would appear that it's not within your small grasp to acknowledge
that serious and scholarly people like McGee, Corriher and Parsons
might know something you don't.

Apparently YMMNV. It's good to see at least one absolute in the universe.

Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:

> This, from Pam Anderson, whose article you referred to:
>
> "HOW TO BRINE OVERNIGHT:
> Before brining, remove the giblets, neck, and tail piece and
> reserve for gravy. To brine overnight, dissolve 1 cup table salt or 2
> cups kosher salt in 2 gallons cold water in a large stockpot or clean
> bucket (whatever you use, it should be 6-8 gallons), submerge the bird
> in the solution, and refrigerate for 8 to 12 hours."
>
> As I have repeatedly pointed out, Pam, Alice and I use .5 cup table
> salt, or its equivalent, 1 cup kosher salt to 1 gallon water to form the
> foundation of the brine.
> And that's that.

Pretty sleazy stuff, Kent. This business of edited quotation. She goes
rather further afield than this implies. And she offers alternatives.
She knows, and you apparently don't, that there's more than the One
True Simpleton Way you insist on to get the job done.

Like these:

<<<<<<<<<< begin quote >>>>>>>>>>>>>
HOW TO BRINE FOR 4 HOURS

Follow the instructions for brining overnight, doubling the
amount of salt in the solution. After 4 hours, remove the
turkey from the brine, rinse VERY WELL under running water,
several times, and pat dry inside and out with paper towels.

HOW TO BRINE OUTSIDE OF THE REFRIGERATOR
FOR 4 HOURS

Follow the instructions for brining overnight, doubling the
amount of salt in the solution. (Ed Note: Be Careful Here !)
Place 4 or 5 large clean frozen ice gel packs in the brine with
the turkey, tie the bag shut (if using an oven bag), cover the
container, and place it in a cool spot for 4 hours. After 4 hours,
remove the turkey from the brine, rinse VERY WELL under
running water, several times, and pat dry inside and out with
paper towels.
<<<<<<<<< end quote >>>>>>>>>>>>>

We're done now.

You may go. There's a good lad.

Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:

>
> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>

>>2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
>>There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
>>consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
>>oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
>>contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
>>the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
>>also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
>>without overcooking the outside.
>
>
> What a bunch of cerebral crap!

Yeah well, the rest of us have cerebrums

What he said comports with my experience 100%. I stopped basting
decades ago.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
Parsons?
If so, what have they done other than write books? Do they run
restaurants? Is there any corroboration of what they are saying? The
world is full of instructors in junior colleges across the U.S.
preaching questionably documented "food science".
I will accept Pelleprat, the Larousse Gastronomique, Raymond Oliver,
Elizabeth David, Julia, Olney, Michael Field, and finally, Alice Waters,
as those who know something that works, that is proven, and that is
accepted by people walking through restaurant doors and their readers
daily.
And so forth,
Kent




Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
>
> >
> > Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >
> >>Kent H. wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
> >>>dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
> >>>brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
> >>>credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
> >>>Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
> >>>than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
> >>>As well, here is the URL for the original article:
> >>>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
> >>>Happy Thanksgiving,
> >>>Kent
> >>>
> >>>BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
> >>>After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
> >>>found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
> >>>salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
> >>>published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.
> >>
> >>Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?
> >>
> >>Oh.
> >>
> >>Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
> >>say let 'em fight it out.
> >>
> >>Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
> >>brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
> >>reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
> >>brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
> >><http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm>
> >>
> >>There are several other issues the piece raises:
> >>1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
> >>purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.
> >>
> >>2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
> >>There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
> >>consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
> >>oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
> >>contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
> >>the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
> >>also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
> >>without overcooking the outside.
>
> > What a bunch of cerebral crap!
>
> Thanks, Kent. Your scholarly approach and depth of knowledge are
> simply effusive and a fine example to all and sundaes. It's a delight
> to sit at the feet of a genuine mastic who delves as widely as yours.
>
> Cerebral crap, indeed. It would seem that anything beyond your meager
> capacity isn't there. It's your cute way of sticking your fingers in
> your ears and chanting La-la-la-la-la, I can't hear you....
>
> >>I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
> >>huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
> >>live happily ever after.
>
> It would appear that it's not within your small grasp to acknowledge
> that serious and scholarly people like McGee, Corriher and Parsons
> might know something you don't.
>
> Apparently YMMNV. It's good to see at least one absolute in the universe.
>
> Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:

> Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
> Parsons?
> If so, what have they done other than write books?

You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.

McGee has both a technical background and a linguistic one; I've never
met him. Shirley is a chemist - an actual scientist - and Russ is a
good researcher and reporter who consults with knowledgeable people
and then does his own experiments. I've spent time with both of them.

You might want to read Jeffrey Steingarten, too. Alton Brown. "On
Cooking" by Labensky and Hause. Some science and some good technique
info. Anything by John Thorne. "The Oxford Companion to Food."

> Do they run restaurants?

No, but I have. Where I tested a lot of techniques and hypotheses. In
any event, what does the fact of running restaurants have to do with
science? Beyond that, your sources below don't include too many people
who've run restaurants, either. Can't have it both ways.

And if that whole "did they run restaurants" business has the kind of
legs you want to imply, I had my first restaurant job in the early
50's. South River, New Jersey. Lovely place. I worked in foodservice
through high school and early college years. Studied hard sciences at
university. Went into corporate life and traveled the world. Went
through a chef training program in Europe. Opened my first restaurant
in 1976. Seminars in the US since. Run my own operations, resort
feeding, country clubs, consulting with large and small feeding
companies. When did you start yours? How many have you run?

> Is there any corroboration of what they are saying?

You ought to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists
and not be quite so proud of your deficits. Then you'd see how often
it all gets tested and tried and discussed amongst people who are on
the firing line. Maybe read a few trade journals. Join IACP and RCA.

> The
> world is full of instructors in junior colleges across the U.S.
> preaching questionably documented "food science".

And even more full of amateurs who think that their old books are the
end of understanding. But this is a nice try to disparage people who
are regarded as pretty much the cutting edge of food science today for
non-scientists. Without exception, none of your cited references have
any qualifications to teach food science.

> I will accept Pelleprat,

I find it more convincing when one can correctly spell the names of
his heroes. Pellaprat. The big book is called "Modern French Culinary
Art." Note the word "art." Says in the book, "Born in the Victorian
age, Pellaprat's greatest and most productive period was between the
two World Wars." He died in 1935. Everybody sing, "Everything 's up to
date in Kansas City. They've gone about as far as they can go..."

> the Larousse Gastronomique,

Right. Prosper Montagne' wrote that one. Escoffier wrote a nice
introduction to it. He died before it was published in 1938. I
*always* refer to books written before 1938 for current scientific
information.

> Raymond Oliver,

Sure. I love his science. Guy started his TV program in 1953. Was a
chef before that. In his book "Gastronomy of France," he says, "In the
aphrodisiac meal . . . the number of dishes should be extremely
limited. If possible, one should make do with a single dish and in no
circumstances should one eat its fill. . . . In very favorable
conditions, the effects of an aphrodisiac meal are almost
instantaneous." Right. Great science.

> Elizabeth David,

A competent enough, if overfussy, cook who makes no claims to
scientific expertise.

> Julia,

Who talks about what works, not universal laws.

> Olney,

She's good for what she has done. A bit dated. Gutsy woman, though.

> Michael Field,

A blowhard who believes that if one word will do, 12 are better. A
musician who decided to become a cook. Died 30 years ago.

> and finally, Alice Waters,

She's most assuredly not about science. Her important contribution is
to promote flavor and freshness, not science. California cuisine.

> as those who know something that works, that is proven, and that is
> accepted by people walking through restaurant doors and their readers
> daily.

So, let's see. These sources are where you go for science? Um, sure. I
go to Jackson Pollack paintings for the physics of refraction and
diffraction. I go to Ernest Hemingway for instruction in the evolution
of language. One should always stop at Beethoven's house for a
full-scale course in audiology.

"Something that works" has nothing much to do with *why* it works or
*how* it works. As for "proven," the only thing that they prove is
that the task at hand works, not anything behind it nor if there are
better ways to approach it. "Accepted" is a funny thing for this
discussion, both because it has no relation to science, either, but
more because you seem to imply that these people have never made
mistakes or misjudged the response they'd get. It shows rather clearly
that you don't really know them, their work, or how foodservice unfolds.

You need some more recent sources. Go buy "Professional Cooking" by
Wayne Gisslen. Or any of his other books and see what professional
cooking is about. See what a good grasp of science looks like when
allied with a good knowledge of commercial cookery.

> And so forth,

Indeed.

Pastorio



> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>>Kent H. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Kent H. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
>>>>>dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
>>>>>brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
>>>>>credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
>>>>>Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
>>>>>than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
>>>>>As well, here is the URL for the original article:
>>>>>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
>>>>>Happy Thanksgiving,
>>>>>Kent
>>>>>
>>>>>BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
>>>>>After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
>>>>>found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
>>>>>salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
>>>>>published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.
>>>>
>>>>Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?
>>>>
>>>>Oh.
>>>>
>>>>Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
>>>>say let 'em fight it out.
>>>>
>>>>Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
>>>>brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
>>>>reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
>>>>brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
>>>><http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm>
>>>>
>>>>There are several other issues the piece raises:
>>>>1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
>>>>purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.
>>>>
>>>>2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
>>>>There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
>>>>consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
>>>>oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
>>>>contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
>>>>the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
>>>>also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
>>>>without overcooking the outside.
>>
>>>What a bunch of cerebral crap!
>>
>>Thanks, Kent. Your scholarly approach and depth of knowledge are
>>simply effusive and a fine example to all and sundaes. It's a delight
>>to sit at the feet of a genuine mastic who delves as widely as yours.
>>
>>Cerebral crap, indeed. It would seem that anything beyond your meager
>>capacity isn't there. It's your cute way of sticking your fingers in
>>your ears and chanting La-la-la-la-la, I can't hear you....
>>
>>
>>>>I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
>>>>huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
>>>>live happily ever after.
>>
>>It would appear that it's not within your small grasp to acknowledge
>>that serious and scholarly people like McGee, Corriher and Parsons
>>might know something you don't.
>>
>>Apparently YMMNV. It's good to see at least one absolute in the universe.
>>
>>Pastorio

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>Kent H. wrote:
>
>> Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
>> Parsons?
>> If so, what have they done other than write books?
>
>You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
>eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
>haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.

[regretfully snipped]

>You ought to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists
>and not be quite so proud of your deficits.

Er, I'd have used "deficiencies" but otherwise I'm ROFL/LMAO/PML here.

Please tell me you're a published author so that I may seek out and enjoy the
book(s),

Best,

Marc

MrAoD wrote:

> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>>Kent H. wrote:
>>
>>>Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
>>>Parsons?
>>>If so, what have they done other than write books?
>>
>>You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
>>eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
>>haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.
>
> [regretfully snipped]
>
>>You ought to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists
>>and not be quite so proud of your deficits.
>
> Er, I'd have used "deficiencies" but otherwise I'm ROFL/LMAO/PML here.

I have hastened to change it retroactively. It now reads: "You ought
to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists and not be
quite so proud of your deficiencies."

> Please tell me you're a published author so that I may seek out and enjoy the
> book(s),

Well, I am published, but no books in print. Literally more than a
thousand articles.

Working on a book now.

Thanks for the good wishes.

Pastorio

Bob Pastorio writes:

>MrAoD wrote:
>
>> Bob Pastorio wrote:
[snip]
>> Er, I'd have used "deficiencies" but otherwise I'm ROFL/LMAO/PML here.
>
>I have hastened to change it retroactively. It now reads: "You ought
>to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists and not be
>quite so proud of your deficiencies."
>
>> Please tell me you're a published author so that I may seek out and enjoy
>the
>> book(s),
>
>Well, I am published, but no books in print. Literally more than a
>thousand articles.

An amazon search turned up nothing. I'd appreciate a few journal(?) titles to
help me narrow my library search.
>
>Working on a book now.

I'm looking forward to it.

>Thanks for the good wishes.

At the ripe old age of 46 the number of writers who can both inform and
entertain are running thin for me, so my wishes are in part self-serving.

Best,

Marc

Hark! I heard Bob Pastorio > say:

<snip>
> It would appear that it's not within your small grasp to acknowledge
> that serious and scholarly people like McGee, Corriher and Parsons
> might know something you don't.

I bought Shirley Corriher's "Cookwise" a couple of months ago.
Terrific book! She explains the "why" of cooking, which, IMHO,
is extremely important and not usually available in your average
cook book...


--
j.j. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:00:52 -0500, Bob Pastorio >
wrote:


>> Olney,
>
>She's good for what she has done. A bit dated. Gutsy woman, though.

I think he was talking about Richard Olney.

Christine

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:00:52 -0500, Bob Pastorio >
wrote:


>You might want to read Jeffrey Steingarten, too. Alton Brown. "On
>Cooking" by Labensky and Hause. Some science and some good technique
>info. Anything by John Thorne. "The Oxford Companion to Food."

Ahhhh.. John Thorne. One of my absolute favorites! I have all
his books, although I regretfully packed them away when I went on the
road.

I subscribed to his pamphlet Simple Cooking last year.
I understand that Julia Child and Alice Waters and a whole host of
other well known food people are on his subscriber list. And Johne
Thorne, from what I remember reading, wrote the introduction to the
reissue of one of Richard Olney's book, of which one I can't remember
now. Thorne is a big admirer of Olney, and from what I have read,
they corresponded a lot in the few years before Olney's death.

Christine

Christine Dabney wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:00:52 -0500, Bob Pastorio >
> wrote:
>
>>>Olney,
>>
>>She's good for what she has done. A bit dated. Gutsy woman, though.
>
> I think he was talking about Richard Olney.

Judith, Richard. Hard to tell when the info ain't there. I think she's
more accessible than he is.

I have several of his books. A touch rarefied and overwritten for my
tastes. His stuff is good, but if I want to read foodie prose, there
are others I prefer who don't write like they're carrying the tablets
down from the mountain. He's good enough, I guess, just not to my likes.

I gave "10 Vineyard lunches" to a person just as stuffy and pompous as
Olney.

Pastorio

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Kent H. wrote:
>
> > Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
> > Parsons?
> > If so, what have they done other than write books?
>
> You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
> eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
> haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.
>
> McGee has both a technical background and a linguistic one; I've never
> met him. Shirley is a chemist - an actual scientist - and Russ is a
> good researcher and reporter who consults with knowledgeable people
> and then does his own experiments. I've spent time with both of them.

Do they know what food is supposed to taste like?
>
> You might want to read Jeffrey Steingarten, too. Alton Brown. "On
> Cooking" by Labensky and Hause. Some science and some good technique
> info. Anything by John Thorne. "The Oxford Companion to Food."
>
> > Do they run restaurants?
>
> No, but I have. Where I tested a lot of techniques and hypotheses. In
> any event, what does the fact of running restaurants have to do with
> science? Beyond that, your sources below don't include too many people
> who've run restaurants, either. Can't have it both ways.
>
> And if that whole "did they run restaurants" business has the kind of
> legs you want to imply, I had my first restaurant job in the early
> 50's. South River, New Jersey. Lovely place. I worked in foodservice
> through high school and early college years. Studied hard sciences at
> university. Went into corporate life and traveled the world. Went
> through a chef training program in Europe. Opened my first restaurant
> in 1976. Seminars in the US since. Run my own operations, resort
> feeding, country clubs, consulting with large and small feeding
> companies. When did you start yours? How many have you run?

Have you run a restaurant with any credentials generally accepted by the
public? A newspaper review? a Michelin star?, in the AAA, even?
>
> > Is there any corroboration of what they are saying?
>
> You ought to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists
> and not be quite so proud of your deficits. Then you'd see how often
> it all gets tested and tried and discussed amongst people who are on
> the firing line. Maybe read a few trade journals. Join IACP and RCA.
>

> > The
> > world is full of instructors in junior colleges across the U.S.
> > preaching questionably documented "food science".
>
> And even more full of amateurs who think that their old books are the
> end of understanding. But this is a nice try to disparage people who
> are regarded as pretty much the cutting edge of food science today for
> non-scientists. Without exception, none of your cited references have
> any qualifications to teach food science.
>
> > I will accept Pelleprat,
>
> I find it more convincing when one can correctly spell the names of
> his heroes. Pellaprat. The big book is called "Modern French Culinary
> Art." Note the word "art." Says in the book, "Born in the Victorian
> age, Pellaprat's greatest and most productive period was between the
> two World Wars." He died in 1935. Everybody sing, "Everything 's up to
> date in Kansas City. They've gone about as far as they can go..."
>
> > the Larousse Gastronomique,
>
> Right. Prosper Montagne' wrote that one. Escoffier wrote a nice
> introduction to it. He died before it was published in 1938. I
> *always* refer to books written before 1938 for current scientific
> information.

Food chemistry, if it has anything to do with what we are talking
about, has changed precious little from the beginning of the century to
the present.
>
> > Raymond Oliver,
>
> Sure. I love his science. Guy started his TV program in 1953. Was a
> chef before that. In his book "Gastronomy of France," he says, "In the
> aphrodisiac meal . . . the number of dishes should be extremely
> limited. If possible, one should make do with a single dish and in no
> circumstances should one eat its fill. . . . In very favorable
> conditions, the effects of an aphrodisiac meal are almost
> instantaneous." Right. Great science.

Raymond Oliver's Paris restaurant had at one time three Michelin stars,
one of less than 20 in France.
>
> > Elizabeth David,
>
> A competent enough, if overfussy, cook who makes no claims to
> scientific expertise.
>
> > Julia,
>
> Who talks about what works, not universal laws.

Isn't that what this NG should be about?
>
> > Olney,

Richard Olney
>
> She's good for what she has done. A bit dated. Gutsy woman, though.
>
> > Michael Field,
>
> A blowhard who believes that if one word will do, 12 are better. A
> musician who decided to become a cook. Died 30 years ago.

Tragically of a heart attack. As a cookbook writer about that which
works, one of the best around.
>
> > and finally, Alice Waters,
>
> She's most assuredly not about science. Her important contribution is
> to promote flavor and freshness, not science. California cuisine.
>
> > as those who know something that works, that is proven, and that is
> > accepted by people walking through restaurant doors and their readers
> > daily.

I live very close to Chez Peculiar, and rarely to never go there
anymore. However her recipe contribution can't be faulted, as with the
turkey brine.
>
> So, let's see. These sources are where you go for science? Um, sure. I
> go to Jackson Pollack paintings for the physics of refraction and
> diffraction. I go to Ernest Hemingway for instruction in the evolution
> of language. One should always stop at Beethoven's house for a
> full-scale course in audiology.
>
> "Something that works" has nothing much to do with *why* it works or
> *how* it works. As for "proven," the only thing that they prove is
> that the task at hand works, not anything behind it nor if there are
> better ways to approach it. "Accepted" is a funny thing for this
> discussion, both because it has no relation to science, either, but
> more because you seem to imply that these people have never made
> mistakes or misjudged the response they'd get. It shows rather clearly
> that you don't really know them, their work, or how foodservice unfolds.
>
> You need some more recent sources. Go buy "Professional Cooking" by
> Wayne Gisslen. Or any of his other books and see what professional
> cooking is about. See what a good grasp of science looks like when
> allied with a good knowledge of commercial cookery.

You sure have a big ego, which usually means no ego. Unlike you and some
others on this and other NGs, I don't try to credential myself. You
either accept what I say or you don't. I suspect, however, that my
understanding of body chemistry, and taste is far greater than yours.
Back to the lab for you.

Kent
>
> > And so forth,
>
> Indeed.
>
> Pastorio
>
> > Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >
> >>Kent H. wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Kent H. wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
> >>>>>dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
> >>>>>brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
> >>>>>credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
> >>>>>Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
> >>>>>than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
> >>>>>As well, here is the URL for the original article:
> >>>>>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
> >>>>>Happy Thanksgiving,
> >>>>>Kent
> >>>>>
> >>>>>BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
> >>>>>After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
> >>>>>found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
> >>>>>salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
> >>>>>published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.
> >>>>
> >>>>Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?
> >>>>
> >>>>Oh.
> >>>>
> >>>>Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
> >>>>say let 'em fight it out.
> >>>>
> >>>>Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
> >>>>brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
> >>>>reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
> >>>>brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
> >>>><http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm>
> >>>>
> >>>>There are several other issues the piece raises:
> >>>>1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
> >>>>purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.
> >>>>
> >>>>2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
> >>>>There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
> >>>>consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
> >>>>oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
> >>>>contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
> >>>>the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
> >>>>also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
> >>>>without overcooking the outside.
> >>
> >>>What a bunch of cerebral crap!
> >>
> >>Thanks, Kent. Your scholarly approach and depth of knowledge are
> >>simply effusive and a fine example to all and sundaes. It's a delight
> >>to sit at the feet of a genuine mastic who delves as widely as yours.
> >>
> >>Cerebral crap, indeed. It would seem that anything beyond your meager
> >>capacity isn't there. It's your cute way of sticking your fingers in
> >>your ears and chanting La-la-la-la-la, I can't hear you....
> >>
> >>
> >>>>I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
> >>>>huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
> >>>>live happily ever after.
> >>
> >>It would appear that it's not within your small grasp to acknowledge
> >>that serious and scholarly people like McGee, Corriher and Parsons
> >>might know something you don't.
> >>
> >>Apparently YMMNV. It's good to see at least one absolute in the universe.
> >>
> >>Pastorio

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> MrAoD wrote:
>
> > Bob Pastorio wrote:
> >
> >>Kent H. wrote:
> >>
> >>>Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
> >>>Parsons?
> >>>If so, what have they done other than write books?
> >>
> >>You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
> >>eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
> >>haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.
> >
> > [regretfully snipped]
> >
> >>You ought to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists
> >>and not be quite so proud of your deficits.
> >
> > Er, I'd have used "deficiencies" but otherwise I'm ROFL/LMAO/PML here.
>
> I have hastened to change it retroactively. It now reads: "You ought
> to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists and not be
> quite so proud of your deficiencies."
>
> > Please tell me you're a published author so that I may seek out and enjoy the
> > book(s),
>
> Well, I am published, but no books in print. Literally more than a
> thousand articles.

Send us a list!
>
> Working on a book now.

You, like George Leonard Herter, will have to publish it yourself.
>
> Thanks for the good wishes.
>
> Pastorio

Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
> Christine Dabney wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:00:52 -0500, Bob Pastorio >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>>Olney,
> >>
> >>She's good for what she has done. A bit dated. Gutsy woman, though.
> >
> > I think he was talking about Richard Olney.
>
> Judith, Richard. Hard to tell when the info ain't there. I think she's
> more accessible than he is.
>
> I have several of his books. A touch rarefied and overwritten for my
> tastes. His stuff is good, but if I want to read foodie prose, there
> are others I prefer who don't write like they're carrying the tablets
> down from the mountain. He's good enough, I guess, just not to my likes.
>
> I gave "10 Vineyard lunches" to a person just as stuffy and pompous as
> Olney.

And still you are nobody
>
> Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:
>
> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>>MrAoD wrote:
>>
>>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
>>>
>>>>Kent H. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
>>>>>Parsons?
>>>>>If so, what have they done other than write books?
>>>>
>>>>You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
>>>>eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
>>>>haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.
>>>
>>>[regretfully snipped]
>>>
>>>>You ought to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists
>>>>and not be quite so proud of your deficits.
>>>
>>>Er, I'd have used "deficiencies" but otherwise I'm ROFL/LMAO/PML here.
>>
>>I have hastened to change it retroactively. It now reads: "You ought
>>to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists and not be
>>quite so proud of your deficiencies."
>>
>>>Please tell me you're a published author so that I may seek out and enjoy the
>>>book(s),
>>
>>Well, I am published, but no books in print. Literally more than a
>>thousand articles.
>
> Send us a list!
>
>>Working on a book now.
>
> You, like George Leonard Herter, will have to publish it yourself.

<LOL>

Poor Kent is driven to this by his flagging performance...

And here's another posts from Kent that I'm piggybacking here. Kent
adds his best effort at a zinger at the end. Brace yourselves...

>> Christine Dabney wrote:
>
>>> > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:00:52 -0500, Bob Pastorio
> wrote:
>>> >
>>
>>>>> >>>Olney,
>>>> >>
>>>> >>She's good for what she has done. A bit dated. Gutsy woman,
though.
>>
>>> >
>>> > I think he was talking about Richard Olney.
>>
>> Judith, Richard. Hard to tell when the info ain't there. I think
>> she's more accessible than he is.
>>
>> I have several of his books. A touch rarefied and overwritten for
>> my tastes. His stuff is good, but if I want to read foodie prose,
>> there are others I prefer who don't write like they're carrying the
>> tablets down from the mountain. He's good enough, I guess, just not
>> to my likes.
>>
>> I gave "10 Vineyard lunches" to a person just as stuffy and pompous
>> as Olney.

> And still you are nobody

Zowie, Kent. How could anyone hope to stand against an onslaught like
that.

Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:

> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>
>>Kent H. wrote:

Kent, you're trying very hard to scramble around to find *something*
or *anything* to divert attention from your stunted amateur viewpoint.
I've trimmed a lot from the note below just to deal with your panicky
dissembling. So here we go:

>>>Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
>>>Parsons?
>>>If so, what have they done other than write books?
>>
>>You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
>>eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
>>haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.

> Do they know what food is supposed to taste like?

What a perfectly inane question. Your towering ignorance and desperate
flopping around like a beached fish leads you to these embarrassing
non sequiturs.

>>And if that whole "did they run restaurants" business has the kind of
>>legs you want to imply, I had my first restaurant job in the early
>>50's. South River, New Jersey. Lovely place. I worked in foodservice
>>through high school and early college years. Studied hard sciences at
>>university. Went into corporate life and traveled the world. Went
>>through a chef training program in Europe. Opened my first restaurant
>>in 1976. Seminars in the US since. Run my own operations, resort
>>feeding, country clubs, consulting with large and small feeding
>>companies. When did you start yours? How many have you run?
>
> Have you run a restaurant with any credentials generally accepted by the
> public? A newspaper review? a Michelin star?, in the AAA, even?

You want credentials from me? Funny how down at the end of this post
from you, when you've run out of anything else, you say, "...I don't
try to credential myself. You either accept what I say or you don't."
Credentials from me, none from you. Got it.

The restaurants were credentialed by the public's wallets. It would
seem that a restaurant doing more than $1 million a year would be
reasonably presumed to be accepted by the public. Likewise the country
clubs, saloons, BBQ places, banquet halls I've run. And the other
feeding operations I've consulted for.

The fact is that I've run restaurants and you haven't. All your
diversionary questions don't erase that. You raised the notion that
running a restaurant is a source of food science wisdom and are now
humbled by your own blunder.

> Food chemistry, if it has anything to do with what we are talking
> about, has changed precious little from the beginning of the century to
> the present.

Food chemistry and food science has everything to do with what we're
talking about. And you believe that in the last 103 years, we haven't
learned more about the science behind the kitchen than we did then?

Really? You believe that?

>>>Raymond Oliver,
>>
>>Sure. I love his science. Guy started his TV program in 1953. Was a
>>chef before that. In his book "Gastronomy of France," he says, "In the
>>aphrodisiac meal . . . the number of dishes should be extremely
>>limited. If possible, one should make do with a single dish and in no
>>circumstances should one eat its fill. . . . In very favorable
>>conditions, the effects of an aphrodisiac meal are almost
>>instantaneous." Right. Great science.
>
> Raymond Oliver's Paris restaurant had at one time three Michelin stars,
> one of less than 20 in France.

Right. And he thought there was such a thing as an aphrodisiac meal.
Great science. Are you deliberately missing the points or is it some
congenital condition?

>>>Julia,
>>
>>Who talks about what works, not universal laws.
>
> Isn't that what this NG should be about?

Think so? Aren't you the one pushing the whole business about chef
knowledge=food science knowledge here?

>>>Olney,
>
> Richard Olney

Shoulda said that the first time. Perhaps you didn't know there's more
than one Olney to consider...?

>>>and finally, Alice Waters,
>>
>>She's most assuredly not about science. Her important contribution is
>>to promote flavor and freshness, not science. California cuisine.
>>
> I live very close to Chez Peculiar, and rarely to never go there
> anymore.

You show your admiration in a most "peculiar" way.

> However her recipe contribution can't be faulted, as with the
> turkey brine.

Must... hang ...on. Can't acknowledge... that... there... might...
be... another... way... that... could ...work... as... well... <gasp>

>>"Something that works" has nothing much to do with *why* it works or
>>*how* it works. As for "proven," the only thing that they prove is
>>that the task at hand works, not anything behind it nor if there are
>>better ways to approach it. "Accepted" is a funny thing for this
>>discussion, both because it has no relation to science, either, but
>>more because you seem to imply that these people have never made
>>mistakes or misjudged the response they'd get. It shows rather clearly
>>that you don't really know them, their work, or how foodservice unfolds.
>>
>>You need some more recent sources. Go buy "Professional Cooking" by
>>Wayne Gisslen. Or any of his other books and see what professional
>>cooking is about. See what a good grasp of science looks like when
>>allied with a good knowledge of commercial cookery.
>
>
> You sure have a big ego, which usually means no ego.

Um, right. Big=no.

> Unlike you and some
> others on this and other NGs, I don't try to credential myself.

Isn't it interesting that you wanted credentials from me and the
others I reference. Isn't it interesting that you offered references
that are credentialed (in your small knowledge). So everybody else
needs credentials but you don't. Right. Desperate spin and flop-sweat
rivers don't offer convincing testimony.

"Don't try to credential myself" = no credentials (or I'd trot them
out in a heartbeat).

> You
> either accept what I say or you don't. I suspect, however, that my
> understanding of body chemistry, and taste is far greater than yours.

You'd have to, wouldn't you. Except for that little part where you,
um, utterly fail to make that case, you're doing very well. Yes, park
in that space with the little wheelchair stenciled on it.

> Back to the lab for you.

I'd be happy to show you where it is...

Pastorio