The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
As well, here is the URL for the original article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
Happy Thanksgiving,
Kent

BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.


INGREDIENTS:
1 turkey, about 12 pounds

Brine

1 cup sugar

2 cups kosher salt

2 1/2 gallons cold water

2 bay leaves, torn into pieces

1 bunch fresh thyme

1 head of garlic, cloves separated and peeled

5 whole allspice berries, crushed

4 juniper berries, smashed (see Note)

Roasting

2 tablespoons softened butter + butter for basting

1 1/2 teaspoons freshly ground pepper

1 cup chicken stock, or more as needed

INSTRUCTIONS: Brining: Clean the turkey by removing the giblet bag, any
extra internal fat and any pin feathers. Rinse well under cold tap
water.

Combine sugar, salt and 3 to 4 quarts of the cold water in a large bowl.
Stir until sugar and salt dissolve, then add the bay leaves, thyme,
garlic, allspice and juniper berries. Double-bag two heavy-duty,
unscented, trash bags (not made of recycled materials), then put them in
an ice chest that is large enough to hold the turkey. Place turkey in
the doubled bags, pour in the brine, then the remaining 1 1/2 gallons
cold water -- there should be enough liquid to completely submerge the
bird. Press out all the air in the bags, then tightly close each bag
separately. Keep the turkey cold with bags of ice, which also help keep
it submerged in the brine. Brine for 12 to 24 hours.

Alternate method: Instead of using an ice chest, place the turkey and
brine in a large pan or bowl and refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours. If the
turkey floats to the top, weight it down with a plate and cans to keep
it completely submerged.

Roasting: Preheat the oven to 400°. Remove the turkey from the brine,
rinse and dry well. Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter over the skin
and sprinkle pepper over the skin and in the cavity. Tuck the wing tips
under, loosely truss the legs and place the turkey on a V-shaped rack in
a roasting pan. Tent breast with foil and place turkey in the oven.

Roasting note: To assure that the bird cooks evenly, rotate the roasting
pan 180 degrees every 30 minutes while the turkey is in the oven.

Roast for about 1 hour, remove the foil and baste the turkey with 1/2
cup stock. Return to the oven and roast, basting with pan drippings and
more stock (if desired) every 20 minutes. Start checking the internal
temperature after about 1 hour of roasting time. If the legs begin to
get too brown, cover them loosely with foil. Roast the turkey until the
internal thigh temperature reaches 165°. Total roasting time should be
about 2 to 2 3/4 hours.

Let rest at least 20 to 30 minutes before carving.

Kent H. wrote:
The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle.

Kent,

This is the article that got me started (when it was originally published in
1999 or 1998) and I really love the results. The only change I made is
that we do not have allspice berries here in Italy and I add lemon rind but
other than that I stick to the recipe and love it.

Cristina

Hark! I heard "Kent H." say:

The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.

Thanks for the article -- I'm brining a turkey for the first time for
Christmas dinner, and all the recent huh-bub about salt quantity had me
nervous...

As well, here is the URL for the original article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...e/2003/11/19/F
DG71316TG1.DTL


--
j.j. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!

Kent H. wrote:

The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.=20
Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even les=
s
than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
As well, here is the URL for the original article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...e/archive/200=
3/11/19/FDG71316TG1.DTL
Happy Thanksgiving,
Kent
=20
BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.=20

Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?

Oh.

Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I=20
say let 'em fight it out.

Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on=20
brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest=20
reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40=20
brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:=20
http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=3Diwm

There are several other issues the piece raises:
1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more=20
purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.

2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.=20
There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will=20
consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the=20
oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't=20
contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening=20
the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which=20
also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked=20
without overcooking the outside.

I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,=20
huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all=20
live happily ever after.

Pastorio


INGREDIENTS:
1 turkey, about 12 pounds=20
=20
Brine=20
=20
1 cup sugar=20
=20
2 cups kosher salt=20
=20
2 1/2 gallons cold water=20
=20
2 bay leaves, torn into pieces=20
=20
1 bunch fresh thyme=20
=20
1 head of garlic, cloves separated and peeled=20
=20
5 whole allspice berries, crushed=20
=20
4 juniper berries, smashed (see Note)=20
=20
Roasting=20
=20
2 tablespoons softened butter + butter for basting=20
=20
1 1/2 teaspoons freshly ground pepper=20
=20
1 cup chicken stock, or more as needed=20
=20
INSTRUCTIONS: Brining: Clean the turkey by removing the giblet bag, any=

extra internal fat and any pin feathers. Rinse well under cold tap
water.=20
=20
Combine sugar, salt and 3 to 4 quarts of the cold water in a large bowl=
=2E
Stir until sugar and salt dissolve, then add the bay leaves, thyme,
garlic, allspice and juniper berries. Double-bag two heavy-duty,
unscented, trash bags (not made of recycled materials), then put them i=
n
an ice chest that is large enough to hold the turkey. Place turkey in
the doubled bags, pour in the brine, then the remaining 1 1/2 gallons
cold water -- there should be enough liquid to completely submerge the
bird. Press out all the air in the bags, then tightly close each bag
separately. Keep the turkey cold with bags of ice, which also help keep=

it submerged in the brine. Brine for 12 to 24 hours.=20
=20
Alternate method: Instead of using an ice chest, place the turkey and
brine in a large pan or bowl and refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours. If the=

turkey floats to the top, weight it down with a plate and cans to keep
it completely submerged.=20
=20
Roasting: Preheat the oven to 400=B0. Remove the turkey from the brine,=

rinse and dry well. Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter over the skin
and sprinkle pepper over the skin and in the cavity. Tuck the wing tips=

under, loosely truss the legs and place the turkey on a V-shaped rack i=
n
a roasting pan. Tent breast with foil and place turkey in the oven.=20
=20
Roasting note: To assure that the bird cooks evenly, rotate the roastin=
g
pan 180 degrees every 30 minutes while the turkey is in the oven.=20
=20
Roast for about 1 hour, remove the foil and baste the turkey with 1/2
cup stock. Return to the oven and roast, basting with pan drippings and=

more stock (if desired) every 20 minutes. Start checking the internal
temperature after about 1 hour of roasting time. If the legs begin to
get too brown, cover them loosely with foil. Roast the turkey until the=

internal thigh temperature reaches 165=B0. Total roasting time should b=
e
about 2 to 2 3/4 hours.=20
=20
Let rest at least 20 to 30 minutes before carving.

This, from Pam Anderson, whose article you referred to:

"HOW TO BRINE OVERNIGHT:
Before brining, remove the giblets, neck, and tail piece and
reserve for gravy. To brine overnight, dissolve 1 cup table salt or 2
cups kosher salt in 2 gallons cold water in a large stockpot or clean
bucket (whatever you use, it should be 6-8 gallons), submerge the bird
in the solution, and refrigerate for 8 to 12 hours."

As I have repeatedly pointed out, Pam, Alice and I use .5 cup table
salt, or its equivalent, 1 cup kosher salt to 1 gallon water to form the
foundation of the brine.
And that's that.

Kent



Bob Pastorio wrote:

Kent H. wrote:

The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
As well, here is the URL for the original article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
Happy Thanksgiving,
Kent

BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.

Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?

Oh.

Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
say let 'em fight it out.

Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm

There are several other issues the piece raises:
1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.

2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
without overcooking the outside.

I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
live happily ever after.

Pastorio

INGREDIENTS:
1 turkey, about 12 pounds

Brine

1 cup sugar

2 cups kosher salt

2 1/2 gallons cold water

2 bay leaves, torn into pieces

1 bunch fresh thyme

1 head of garlic, cloves separated and peeled

5 whole allspice berries, crushed

4 juniper berries, smashed (see Note)

Roasting

2 tablespoons softened butter + butter for basting

1 1/2 teaspoons freshly ground pepper

1 cup chicken stock, or more as needed

INSTRUCTIONS: Brining: Clean the turkey by removing the giblet bag, any
extra internal fat and any pin feathers. Rinse well under cold tap
water.

Combine sugar, salt and 3 to 4 quarts of the cold water in a large bowl.
Stir until sugar and salt dissolve, then add the bay leaves, thyme,
garlic, allspice and juniper berries. Double-bag two heavy-duty,
unscented, trash bags (not made of recycled materials), then put them in
an ice chest that is large enough to hold the turkey. Place turkey in
the doubled bags, pour in the brine, then the remaining 1 1/2 gallons
cold water -- there should be enough liquid to completely submerge the
bird. Press out all the air in the bags, then tightly close each bag
separately. Keep the turkey cold with bags of ice, which also help keep
it submerged in the brine. Brine for 12 to 24 hours.

Alternate method: Instead of using an ice chest, place the turkey and
brine in a large pan or bowl and refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours. If the
turkey floats to the top, weight it down with a plate and cans to keep
it completely submerged.

Roasting: Preheat the oven to 400°. Remove the turkey from the brine,
rinse and dry well. Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter over the skin
and sprinkle pepper over the skin and in the cavity. Tuck the wing tips
under, loosely truss the legs and place the turkey on a V-shaped rack in
a roasting pan. Tent breast with foil and place turkey in the oven.

Roasting note: To assure that the bird cooks evenly, rotate the roasting
pan 180 degrees every 30 minutes while the turkey is in the oven.

Roast for about 1 hour, remove the foil and baste the turkey with 1/2
cup stock. Return to the oven and roast, basting with pan drippings and
more stock (if desired) every 20 minutes. Start checking the internal
temperature after about 1 hour of roasting time. If the legs begin to
get too brown, cover them loosely with foil. Roast the turkey until the
internal thigh temperature reaches 165°. Total roasting time should be
about 2 to 2 3/4 hours.

Let rest at least 20 to 30 minutes before carving.

In article ,
Bob Pastorio wrote:


--snip--

Opening
the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
without overcooking the outside.

Sounds interesting. Could you elaborate on this, please?

How often, how long, etc.

Isaac

Bob Pastorio wrote:

Kent H. wrote:

The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
As well, here is the URL for the original article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
Happy Thanksgiving,
Kent

BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.

Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?

Oh.

Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
say let 'em fight it out.

Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm

There are several other issues the piece raises:
1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.

2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
without overcooking the outside.

What a bunch of cerebral crap!

I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
live happily ever after.

Pastorio

INGREDIENTS:
1 turkey, about 12 pounds

Brine

1 cup sugar

2 cups kosher salt

2 1/2 gallons cold water

2 bay leaves, torn into pieces

1 bunch fresh thyme

1 head of garlic, cloves separated and peeled

5 whole allspice berries, crushed

4 juniper berries, smashed (see Note)

Roasting

2 tablespoons softened butter + butter for basting

1 1/2 teaspoons freshly ground pepper

1 cup chicken stock, or more as needed

INSTRUCTIONS: Brining: Clean the turkey by removing the giblet bag, any
extra internal fat and any pin feathers. Rinse well under cold tap
water.

Combine sugar, salt and 3 to 4 quarts of the cold water in a large bowl.
Stir until sugar and salt dissolve, then add the bay leaves, thyme,
garlic, allspice and juniper berries. Double-bag two heavy-duty,
unscented, trash bags (not made of recycled materials), then put them in
an ice chest that is large enough to hold the turkey. Place turkey in
the doubled bags, pour in the brine, then the remaining 1 1/2 gallons
cold water -- there should be enough liquid to completely submerge the
bird. Press out all the air in the bags, then tightly close each bag
separately. Keep the turkey cold with bags of ice, which also help keep
it submerged in the brine. Brine for 12 to 24 hours.

Alternate method: Instead of using an ice chest, place the turkey and
brine in a large pan or bowl and refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours. If the
turkey floats to the top, weight it down with a plate and cans to keep
it completely submerged.

Roasting: Preheat the oven to 400°. Remove the turkey from the brine,
rinse and dry well. Spread 2 tablespoons softened butter over the skin
and sprinkle pepper over the skin and in the cavity. Tuck the wing tips
under, loosely truss the legs and place the turkey on a V-shaped rack in
a roasting pan. Tent breast with foil and place turkey in the oven.

Roasting note: To assure that the bird cooks evenly, rotate the roasting
pan 180 degrees every 30 minutes while the turkey is in the oven.

Roast for about 1 hour, remove the foil and baste the turkey with 1/2
cup stock. Return to the oven and roast, basting with pan drippings and
more stock (if desired) every 20 minutes. Start checking the internal
temperature after about 1 hour of roasting time. If the legs begin to
get too brown, cover them loosely with foil. Roast the turkey until the
internal thigh temperature reaches 165°. Total roasting time should be
about 2 to 2 3/4 hours.

Let rest at least 20 to 30 minutes before carving.

Kent H. wrote:


Bob Pastorio wrote:

Kent H. wrote:


The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
As well, here is the URL for the original article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
Happy Thanksgiving,
Kent

BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.

Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?

Oh.

Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
say let 'em fight it out.

Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm

There are several other issues the piece raises:
1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.

2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
without overcooking the outside.

What a bunch of cerebral crap!

Thanks, Kent. Your scholarly approach and depth of knowledge are
simply effusive and a fine example to all and sundaes. It's a delight
to sit at the feet of a genuine mastic who delves as widely as yours.

Cerebral crap, indeed. It would seem that anything beyond your meager
capacity isn't there. It's your cute way of sticking your fingers in
your ears and chanting La-la-la-la-la, I can't hear you....

I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
live happily ever after.

It would appear that it's not within your small grasp to acknowledge
that serious and scholarly people like McGee, Corriher and Parsons
might know something you don't.

Apparently YMMNV. It's good to see at least one absolute in the universe.

Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:

This, from Pam Anderson, whose article you referred to:

"HOW TO BRINE OVERNIGHT:
Before brining, remove the giblets, neck, and tail piece and
reserve for gravy. To brine overnight, dissolve 1 cup table salt or 2
cups kosher salt in 2 gallons cold water in a large stockpot or clean
bucket (whatever you use, it should be 6-8 gallons), submerge the bird
in the solution, and refrigerate for 8 to 12 hours."

As I have repeatedly pointed out, Pam, Alice and I use .5 cup table
salt, or its equivalent, 1 cup kosher salt to 1 gallon water to form the
foundation of the brine.
And that's that.

Pretty sleazy stuff, Kent. This business of edited quotation. She goes
rather further afield than this implies. And she offers alternatives.
She knows, and you apparently don't, that there's more than the One
True Simpleton Way you insist on to get the job done.

Like these:

begin quote
HOW TO BRINE FOR 4 HOURS

Follow the instructions for brining overnight, doubling the
amount of salt in the solution. After 4 hours, remove the
turkey from the brine, rinse VERY WELL under running water,
several times, and pat dry inside and out with paper towels.

HOW TO BRINE OUTSIDE OF THE REFRIGERATOR
FOR 4 HOURS

Follow the instructions for brining overnight, doubling the
amount of salt in the solution. (Ed Note: Be Careful Here !)
Place 4 or 5 large clean frozen ice gel packs in the brine with
the turkey, tie the bag shut (if using an oven bag), cover the
container, and place it in a cool spot for 4 hours. After 4 hours,
remove the turkey from the brine, rinse VERY WELL under
running water, several times, and pat dry inside and out with
paper towels.
end quote

We're done now.

You may go. There's a good lad.

Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:


Bob Pastorio wrote:


2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
without overcooking the outside.


What a bunch of cerebral crap!

Yeah well, the rest of us have cerebrums

What he said comports with my experience 100%. I stopped basting
decades ago.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
Parsons?
If so, what have they done other than write books? Do they run
restaurants? Is there any corroboration of what they are saying? The
world is full of instructors in junior colleges across the U.S.
preaching questionably documented "food science".
I will accept Pelleprat, the Larousse Gastronomique, Raymond Oliver,
Elizabeth David, Julia, Olney, Michael Field, and finally, Alice Waters,
as those who know something that works, that is proven, and that is
accepted by people walking through restaurant doors and their readers
daily.
And so forth,
Kent




Bob Pastorio wrote:

Kent H. wrote:


Bob Pastorio wrote:

Kent H. wrote:


The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
As well, here is the URL for the original article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
Happy Thanksgiving,
Kent

BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.

Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?

Oh.

Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
say let 'em fight it out.

Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm

There are several other issues the piece raises:
1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.

2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
without overcooking the outside.

What a bunch of cerebral crap!

Thanks, Kent. Your scholarly approach and depth of knowledge are
simply effusive and a fine example to all and sundaes. It's a delight
to sit at the feet of a genuine mastic who delves as widely as yours.

Cerebral crap, indeed. It would seem that anything beyond your meager
capacity isn't there. It's your cute way of sticking your fingers in
your ears and chanting La-la-la-la-la, I can't hear you....

I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
live happily ever after.

It would appear that it's not within your small grasp to acknowledge
that serious and scholarly people like McGee, Corriher and Parsons
might know something you don't.

Apparently YMMNV. It's good to see at least one absolute in the universe.

Pastorio

Kent H. wrote:

Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
Parsons?
If so, what have they done other than write books?

You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.

McGee has both a technical background and a linguistic one; I've never
met him. Shirley is a chemist - an actual scientist - and Russ is a
good researcher and reporter who consults with knowledgeable people
and then does his own experiments. I've spent time with both of them.

You might want to read Jeffrey Steingarten, too. Alton Brown. "On
Cooking" by Labensky and Hause. Some science and some good technique
info. Anything by John Thorne. "The Oxford Companion to Food."

Do they run restaurants?

No, but I have. Where I tested a lot of techniques and hypotheses. In
any event, what does the fact of running restaurants have to do with
science? Beyond that, your sources below don't include too many people
who've run restaurants, either. Can't have it both ways.

And if that whole "did they run restaurants" business has the kind of
legs you want to imply, I had my first restaurant job in the early
50's. South River, New Jersey. Lovely place. I worked in foodservice
through high school and early college years. Studied hard sciences at
university. Went into corporate life and traveled the world. Went
through a chef training program in Europe. Opened my first restaurant
in 1976. Seminars in the US since. Run my own operations, resort
feeding, country clubs, consulting with large and small feeding
companies. When did you start yours? How many have you run?

Is there any corroboration of what they are saying?

You ought to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists
and not be quite so proud of your deficits. Then you'd see how often
it all gets tested and tried and discussed amongst people who are on
the firing line. Maybe read a few trade journals. Join IACP and RCA.

The
world is full of instructors in junior colleges across the U.S.
preaching questionably documented "food science".

And even more full of amateurs who think that their old books are the
end of understanding. But this is a nice try to disparage people who
are regarded as pretty much the cutting edge of food science today for
non-scientists. Without exception, none of your cited references have
any qualifications to teach food science.

I will accept Pelleprat,

I find it more convincing when one can correctly spell the names of
his heroes. Pellaprat. The big book is called "Modern French Culinary
Art." Note the word "art." Says in the book, "Born in the Victorian
age, Pellaprat's greatest and most productive period was between the
two World Wars." He died in 1935. Everybody sing, "Everything 's up to
date in Kansas City. They've gone about as far as they can go..."

the Larousse Gastronomique,

Right. Prosper Montagne' wrote that one. Escoffier wrote a nice
introduction to it. He died before it was published in 1938. I
*always* refer to books written before 1938 for current scientific
information.

Raymond Oliver,

Sure. I love his science. Guy started his TV program in 1953. Was a
chef before that. In his book "Gastronomy of France," he says, "In the
aphrodisiac meal . . . the number of dishes should be extremely
limited. If possible, one should make do with a single dish and in no
circumstances should one eat its fill. . . . In very favorable
conditions, the effects of an aphrodisiac meal are almost
instantaneous." Right. Great science.

Elizabeth David,

A competent enough, if overfussy, cook who makes no claims to
scientific expertise.

Julia,

Who talks about what works, not universal laws.

Olney,

She's good for what she has done. A bit dated. Gutsy woman, though.

Michael Field,

A blowhard who believes that if one word will do, 12 are better. A
musician who decided to become a cook. Died 30 years ago.

and finally, Alice Waters,

She's most assuredly not about science. Her important contribution is
to promote flavor and freshness, not science. California cuisine.

as those who know something that works, that is proven, and that is
accepted by people walking through restaurant doors and their readers
daily.

So, let's see. These sources are where you go for science? Um, sure. I
go to Jackson Pollack paintings for the physics of refraction and
diffraction. I go to Ernest Hemingway for instruction in the evolution
of language. One should always stop at Beethoven's house for a
full-scale course in audiology.

"Something that works" has nothing much to do with *why* it works or
*how* it works. As for "proven," the only thing that they prove is
that the task at hand works, not anything behind it nor if there are
better ways to approach it. "Accepted" is a funny thing for this
discussion, both because it has no relation to science, either, but
more because you seem to imply that these people have never made
mistakes or misjudged the response they'd get. It shows rather clearly
that you don't really know them, their work, or how foodservice unfolds.

You need some more recent sources. Go buy "Professional Cooking" by
Wayne Gisslen. Or any of his other books and see what professional
cooking is about. See what a good grasp of science looks like when
allied with a good knowledge of commercial cookery.

And so forth,

Indeed.

Pastorio



Bob Pastorio wrote:

Kent H. wrote:


Bob Pastorio wrote:


Kent H. wrote:



The following from today's San Francisco Chronicle. There has been
dialogue in this NG about how much salt and how much sugar for turkey
brine. One wouldn't ordinarily post a newspaper article. Alice Water's
credentials, however make that appropriate, in my mind.
Please note that 2 cups kosher salt to 2.5 gallons of water is even less
than my 4 oz table salt to 1 gallon of water.
As well, here is the URL for the original article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...DG71316TG1.DTL
Happy Thanksgiving,
Kent

BEST WAY BRINED TURKEY
After cooking nearly 40 turkeys in The Chronicle's test kitchen, we
found a brined turkey to be the best. The brine, a seasoned
salt-sugar-water mixture, is from Chez Panisse's Alice Waters and is
published in "The Secrets of Success Cookbook," by Michael Bauer.

Michael Bauer works for the Chron. And he wrote the book?

Oh.

Russ Parsons works for the LATimes. His book disputes Bauer's book. I
say let 'em fight it out.

Sounds like they tried one brine. Pam Anderson did the research on
brining when she was editor of Cook's Illustrated and is the largest
reason why brining is such a popular subject today. She tested 40
brined birds. Here's where she says what she says:
http://www.bbq-porch.org/turkey02.asp?clkd=iwm

There are several other issues the piece raises:
1) Cooking temperature - 400F is way too high, IMO. It will cause more
purge than necessary and result in decided moisture loss.

2) Basting with stock merely cools the surface while it evaporates.
There's no flavor benefit. Later when pan drippings are used, it will
consist mostly of fat which will essentially let the skin fry in the
oven and it will become very dark. Tests show that basting doesn't
contribute flavor, moistness or any other positive benefit. Opening
the oven door, however, does. It lets the oven cool down a bit which
also cools the surface of the bird. Good for getting the inside cooked
without overcooking the outside.

What a bunch of cerebral crap!

Thanks, Kent. Your scholarly approach and depth of knowledge are
simply effusive and a fine example to all and sundaes. It's a delight
to sit at the feet of a genuine mastic who delves as widely as yours.

Cerebral crap, indeed. It would seem that anything beyond your meager
capacity isn't there. It's your cute way of sticking your fingers in
your ears and chanting La-la-la-la-la, I can't hear you....


I guess we need to let the "experts" soak their birds their way,
huh...? You do yours your way and I'll do mine my way. And we'll all
live happily ever after.

It would appear that it's not within your small grasp to acknowledge
that serious and scholarly people like McGee, Corriher and Parsons
might know something you don't.

Apparently YMMNV. It's good to see at least one absolute in the universe.

Pastorio

Bob Pastorio wrote:

Kent H. wrote:

Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
Parsons?
If so, what have they done other than write books?

You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.

[regretfully snipped]

You ought to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists
and not be quite so proud of your deficits.

Er, I'd have used "deficiencies" but otherwise I'm ROFL/LMAO/PML here.

Please tell me you're a published author so that I may seek out and enjoy the
book(s),

Best,

Marc

MrAoD wrote:

Bob Pastorio wrote:

Kent H. wrote:

Are you referring to: Harold J. McGee, Shirley Corriher, and Russ
Parsons?
If so, what have they done other than write books?

You know, it's abundantly clear that you truly don't know. I'd be less
eager to parade that about than you are. It's also rather clear you
haven't read their books or you'd know what else they've done.

[regretfully snipped]

You ought to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists
and not be quite so proud of your deficits.

Er, I'd have used "deficiencies" but otherwise I'm ROFL/LMAO/PML here.

I have hastened to change it retroactively. It now reads: "You ought
to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists and not be
quite so proud of your deficiencies."

Please tell me you're a published author so that I may seek out and enjoy the
book(s),

Well, I am published, but no books in print. Literally more than a
thousand articles.

Working on a book now.

Thanks for the good wishes.

Pastorio

Bob Pastorio writes:

MrAoD wrote:

Bob Pastorio wrote:
[snip]
Er, I'd have used "deficiencies" but otherwise I'm ROFL/LMAO/PML here.

I have hastened to change it retroactively. It now reads: "You ought
to subscribe to a few professional chefs groups and lists and not be
quite so proud of your deficiencies."

Please tell me you're a published author so that I may seek out and enjoy
the
book(s),

Well, I am published, but no books in print. Literally more than a
thousand articles.

An amazon search turned up nothing. I'd appreciate a few journal(?) titles to
help me narrow my library search.

Working on a book now.

I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks for the good wishes.

At the ripe old age of 46 the number of writers who can both inform and
entertain are running thin for me, so my wishes are in part self-serving.

Best,

Marc