We have been making fruit wine for over 40 years. We have always used
Campden tabs or metabisulfite. We also utilize fruit we freeze and thaw
with boiling water. It seems that using the bisulfite causes the yeast to
start very slowly. Seeing that we use boiling water, do we need to use the
bisulfite? At what temperature does wild yeast get killed?

We soon are starting 15 gallons of blueberry wine and 15 gallons of
raspberry. I'd like to try to get a faster yeast start and thought of
eliminating the bisulfite, depending upon the hot water.

Any comments?

My own response to this question, since I generally freeze most of my fruits
before use, is that I defrost them totally and then treat with crushed and
liquidised campdem tablets.

I have not boiled my fruits for over 20 years and do not like the taste of
"boiled fruit" wines

Just my own way of doing things but I think you will find it to be the best
practice!

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
Remove PSANTISPAM to reply
"Andie Z" > wrote in message
news:AKkRe.5834$DV.3347@trndny07...
> We have been making fruit wine for over 40 years. We have always used
> Campden tabs or metabisulfite. We also utilize fruit we freeze and thaw
> with boiling water. It seems that using the bisulfite causes the yeast to
> start very slowly. Seeing that we use boiling water, do we need to use
> the
> bisulfite? At what temperature does wild yeast get killed?
>
> We soon are starting 15 gallons of blueberry wine and 15 gallons of
> raspberry. I'd like to try to get a faster yeast start and thought of
> eliminating the bisulfite, depending upon the hot water.
>
> Any comments?
>
>

Since the whole point of adding sulphites is to stun or kill unwanted
yeasts and bacteria, if you pitch your yeast too soon after adding the
sulphite you can delay or even prevent fermentation.

I add my sulphite and then wait until the next day to pitch the yeast
(18 to 24 hours), giving the sulphite time to bind.

As far as whether or not to add it at all, your must can pick up yeasts
and bacteria from the air--at first it will be protected by the CO2
released in the fermentation but once that slows down it will be
susceptible. And adding the sulphite at that point could kill your
wanted yeast and stick your fermentation.

You don't say anything about adding wine yeast. Are you depending on
natural yeast for your fermentations? If so, there is no point in adding
the campden/K metabisulfite. It will only slow the process. However, if
you are using wine yeast, make a starter out of some of your juice a day or
so ahead of thawing the bulk fruit. The starter will be fermenting fast by
the time you add it to your main batch. It should take off immediately.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Andie Z" > wrote in message
news:AKkRe.5834$DV.3347@trndny07...
> We have been making fruit wine for over 40 years. We have always used
> Campden tabs or metabisulfite. We also utilize fruit we freeze and thaw
> with boiling water. It seems that using the bisulfite causes the yeast to
> start very slowly. Seeing that we use boiling water, do we need to use
> the
> bisulfite? At what temperature does wild yeast get killed?
>
> We soon are starting 15 gallons of blueberry wine and 15 gallons of
> raspberry. I'd like to try to get a faster yeast start and thought of
> eliminating the bisulfite, depending upon the hot water.
>
> Any comments?
>
>

Hi Andie,

That is an interesting question you've brought up. What I must point
out first of all though is that if you simply use the boiling water to
thaw the fruit then the temperature of the fruit would be fairly
constant at around 0 degrees celsius (32 farenheit) this is due to
something called the 'latent heat of fusion.' What this means as it
applies here is that unless you continue heating the fruit AFTER it has
thawed (i.e. all the ice crystals within the fruit have melted), the
temperature of the fruit will not get very high. You need to maintain
a temperature in excess of about 50 degrees celsius (~122 F) in order
to kill the yeasts - realistically a higher temperature would need to
be used (many yeasts can survive for quite a while at relatively high
temperatures).

If you are infact heating the fruit to perhaps 80 degrees celsius (176
F) or so, then I would think you could probably get away without using
metabisulfite in the initial stage. Sulfur dioxide (as was pointed out
above) primarily 'stuns' the wild yeast, hopefully long enough that
your wine yeast can get a good head-start. Even though your must is
'unprotected' while it cools (before you add the wine yeast) any
invasion of wild yeasts will still be on the backfoot against your more
vigorous (and hopefully properly hydrated and prepared) wine yeast.

I hope this is of some use to you, I wish you the very best of luck,

Regards,

Michael

That's the answer I was looking for. It gives me a basis to work with. If
I monitor the temp before I pitch my hydrated and proofed yeast, I can feel
comfortable if the temp was high enough. Thanks.

"MBaker" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Andie,
>
> That is an interesting question you've brought up. What I must point
> out first of all though is that if you simply use the boiling water to
> thaw the fruit then the temperature of the fruit would be fairly
> constant at around 0 degrees celsius (32 farenheit) this is due to
> something called the 'latent heat of fusion.' What this means as it
> applies here is that unless you continue heating the fruit AFTER it has
> thawed (i.e. all the ice crystals within the fruit have melted), the
> temperature of the fruit will not get very high. You need to maintain
> a temperature in excess of about 50 degrees celsius (~122 F) in order
> to kill the yeasts - realistically a higher temperature would need to
> be used (many yeasts can survive for quite a while at relatively high
> temperatures).
>
> If you are infact heating the fruit to perhaps 80 degrees celsius (176
> F) or so, then I would think you could probably get away without using
> metabisulfite in the initial stage. Sulfur dioxide (as was pointed out
> above) primarily 'stuns' the wild yeast, hopefully long enough that
> your wine yeast can get a good head-start. Even though your must is
> 'unprotected' while it cools (before you add the wine yeast) any
> invasion of wild yeasts will still be on the backfoot against your more
> vigorous (and hopefully properly hydrated and prepared) wine yeast.
>
> I hope this is of some use to you, I wish you the very best of luck,
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>

I don't like using boiling water. If you want a faster yeast start then
make a starter at the same time you add the meta to the must. In face, the
must can be cold from the frozen fruit when you add it. Anyway, get the
starter going good while the meta sits in the must for 12-24 hours then add
the starter. It will go good.

Ray

"Andie Z" > wrote in message
news:AKkRe.5834$DV.3347@trndny07...
> We have been making fruit wine for over 40 years. We have always used
> Campden tabs or metabisulfite. We also utilize fruit we freeze and thaw
> with boiling water. It seems that using the bisulfite causes the yeast to
> start very slowly. Seeing that we use boiling water, do we need to use
> the
> bisulfite? At what temperature does wild yeast get killed?
>
> We soon are starting 15 gallons of blueberry wine and 15 gallons of
> raspberry. I'd like to try to get a faster yeast start and thought of
> eliminating the bisulfite, depending upon the hot water.
>
> Any comments?
>
>

You have to get tht fruit to a temp of at least 140 F to kill yeast
off.

Just dumping boiled water on frozen fruit will most likely not
pasturize it.

I always make a proofed yeast starter in a quart jar. I make sure it's
going very good. Sometimes two days ahead and I always make sure it's
working vigorously. And yet, if I use 1 Campden per gallon (6 to 15 gallon
batches) it can take two or three days to really start. If we don't use
Meta-bisulfite, such as in a batch of bananna wine where we boiled the
banannas, the yeast became vigorous in minutes.


"Ray Calvert" > wrote in message
m...
> I don't like using boiling water. If you want a faster yeast start then
> make a starter at the same time you add the meta to the must. In face,
the
> must can be cold from the frozen fruit when you add it. Anyway, get the
> starter going good while the meta sits in the must for 12-24 hours then
add
> the starter. It will go good.
>
> Ray
>
> "Andie Z" > wrote in message
> news:AKkRe.5834$DV.3347@trndny07...
> > We have been making fruit wine for over 40 years. We have always used
> > Campden tabs or metabisulfite. We also utilize fruit we freeze and thaw
> > with boiling water. It seems that using the bisulfite causes the yeast
to
> > start very slowly. Seeing that we use boiling water, do we need to use
> > the
> > bisulfite? At what temperature does wild yeast get killed?
> >
> > We soon are starting 15 gallons of blueberry wine and 15 gallons of
> > raspberry. I'd like to try to get a faster yeast start and thought of
> > eliminating the bisulfite, depending upon the hot water.
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
> >
>
>

"Andie Z" > wrote in message
news:AKkRe.5834$DV.3347@trndny07...
> We have been making fruit wine for over 40 years. We have always used
> Campden tabs or metabisulfite. We also utilize fruit we freeze and thaw
> with boiling water. It seems that using the bisulfite causes the yeast to
> start very slowly. Seeing that we use boiling water, do we need to use
> the
> bisulfite?

I'm with Trevor on this one. I see no good reason to boil the fruit. Fresh
(or freshly thawed) fruit tastes better than cooked fruit, so why shouldn't
it make better wine too?

If you're concerned about wild yeast, just use a large concentration of
cultured yeast to overwhelm the wild.

Tom S

"tastes better" really comes down to preference. I take your point but
I don't think it is really reasonable to say that the wine is better if
it isn't boiled - sure a lot of the volatile esters and things are lost
in the heating process - but at the same time it [the heat] is driving
chemical reactions that introduce new/different flavour profiles.

Michael

"MBaker" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> "tastes better" really comes down to preference. I take your point but
> I don't think it is really reasonable to say that the wine is better if
> it isn't boiled - sure a lot of the volatile esters and things are lost
> in the heating process - but at the same time it [the heat] is driving
> chemical reactions that introduce new/different flavour profiles.

Why not try it both ways using the exact same lot of fruit and recipe? Then
you won't have to speculate or listen to what others tell you. You'll know
yourself, and you might reach a conclusion you hadn't expected.

I've done a few such experiments on contentious issues. I barrel aged 1987
Rutherford Cabernet in new French and American oak barrels, side by side.
Years later, comparative tasting revealed that although the American oak
aged wine had a much more racy bouquet, the French aged wine was fuller on
the palate and _tasted_ better.

Although Robert Mondavi and André Tchelistcheff had claimed that French oak
was better, I had to find out _why_ for myself. As a result I've concluded
that a mixture of the two is probably best. You might reach a similar
conclusion regarding cooked vs. uncooked fruit. Sometimes it's all about
complexity.

Tom S

We don't "boil" the fruit. We would use boiling water poured over the fruit
to raise the temp. high enough to kill wild yeast.

The only fruit I ever boiled, even for a short time, was banannas.

Andie Z


"Tom S" > wrote in message
news
>
> "MBaker" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > "tastes better" really comes down to preference. I take your point but
> > I don't think it is really reasonable to say that the wine is better if
> > it isn't boiled - sure a lot of the volatile esters and things are lost
> > in the heating process - but at the same time it [the heat] is driving
> > chemical reactions that introduce new/different flavour profiles.
>
> Why not try it both ways using the exact same lot of fruit and recipe?
Then
> you won't have to speculate or listen to what others tell you. You'll
know
> yourself, and you might reach a conclusion you hadn't expected.
>
> I've done a few such experiments on contentious issues. I barrel aged
1987
> Rutherford Cabernet in new French and American oak barrels, side by side.
> Years later, comparative tasting revealed that although the American oak
> aged wine had a much more racy bouquet, the French aged wine was fuller on
> the palate and _tasted_ better.
>
> Although Robert Mondavi and André Tchelistcheff had claimed that French
oak
> was better, I had to find out _why_ for myself. As a result I've
concluded
> that a mixture of the two is probably best. You might reach a similar
> conclusion regarding cooked vs. uncooked fruit. Sometimes it's all about
> complexity.
>
> Tom S
>
>

"Andie Z" > wrote in message
news:%CLSe.7533$aG.1005@trndny01...
> We don't "boil" the fruit. We would use boiling water poured over the
> fruit
> to raise the temp. high enough to kill wild yeast.

Yeah, I understood that - but I still think you should try doing it both
ways. I believe your concerns about wild yeast are exaggerated, and that
even minimal heating such as you do damages the fruit to some extent. Try
tasting flash Pasteurized orange juice against the same stuff that isn't
Pasteurized. That's quite analogous.

Tom S