I've got some wines (Syrah, Cab) that ended up with high pH - the Syrah
is around 3.9, the Cab 3.85. They're both about 10 months old and clear
and the balance is great on both, so I don't want to muck with the
acidity to get the pH down. I'm sulfiting based on the higher pH but
after several months, I get some oxidation in the top of the carboy. So
far this didn't seem to affect the layers under, but it makes me
worried.

The carboys are closed with the Ferm-Rite silicon waterless airlock,
covered with 4 layers of Saran wrap tightened with a rubber band. I
thought this would be enough to prevent any possible air intake in long
term storage.

So, the question - should I keep bulk aging to get to the stage when
the sulfite level doesn't decrease so rapidly or should I just bottle
now?

Thx,

Pp

If the wine is sufficiently clear and has flavor profile you desire, I
would sulfite appropriate to the pH and bottle it. It all comes down
to what you think you need to achieve with additional bulk aging and
whether it's worth risking exposing your wine to oxidation.

Having said that, I'm curious why you're using an airlock. If MLF is
complete, you may be better off using a rubber bung on your carboys
instead. Are you observing browning at the top of your carboy?

RD wrote:
> If the wine is sufficiently clear and has flavor profile you desire, I
> would sulfite appropriate to the pH and bottle it. It all comes down
> to what you think you need to achieve with additional bulk aging and
> whether it's worth risking exposing your wine to oxidation.
>
> Having said that, I'm curious why you're using an airlock. If MLF is
> complete, you may be better off using a rubber bung on your carboys
> instead. Are you observing browning at the top of your carboy?

Well, about 2-3 weeks ago, I went through my first and hopefully last
exploded carboy situation - I had about 3 carboys bunged solid and one
of them couldn't handle the +2C gradual change in temperature. I'm in
an condo without air conditioning, so the storage conditions are less
than ideal in summer. So basically, that's why I went from solid bungs
back to airlocks in the last year.

As for colour, no, don't see any brown shades. Also, I've used the same
airlocks for whites and cider and another red with lower pH and don't
have any issues there, so it really looks like it's pH related.

Pp

"pp" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've got some wines (Syrah, Cab) that ended up with high pH - the Syrah
> is around 3.9, the Cab 3.85. They're both about 10 months old and clear
> and the balance is great on both, so I don't want to muck with the
> acidity to get the pH down. I'm sulfiting based on the higher pH but
> after several months, I get some oxidation in the top of the carboy. So
> far this didn't seem to affect the layers under, but it makes me
> worried.
>
> The carboys are closed with the Ferm-Rite silicon waterless airlock,
> covered with 4 layers of Saran wrap tightened with a rubber band. I
> thought this would be enough to prevent any possible air intake in long
> term storage.
>
> So, the question - should I keep bulk aging to get to the stage when
> the sulfite level doesn't decrease so rapidly or should I just bottle
> now?
>
> Thx,
>
> Pp


Pp,
Excessive SO2 lose is indicative of excessive oxidation. I think you have
an

"pp" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've got some wines (Syrah, Cab) that ended up with high pH - the Syrah
> is around 3.9, the Cab 3.85. They're both about 10 months old and clear
> and the balance is great on both, so I don't want to muck with the
> acidity to get the pH down. I'm sulfiting based on the higher pH but
> after several months, I get some oxidation in the top of the carboy. So
> far this didn't seem to affect the layers under, but it makes me
> worried.
>
> The carboys are closed with the Ferm-Rite silicon waterless airlock,
> covered with 4 layers of Saran wrap tightened with a rubber band. I
> thought this would be enough to prevent any possible air intake in long
> term storage.
>
> So, the question - should I keep bulk aging to get to the stage when
> the sulfite level doesn't decrease so rapidly or should I just bottle
> now?
>
> Thx,
>
> Pp


Pp,
Excessive SO2 consumption is indicative of excessive oxidation. I think you
have an airlock problem rather than a pH problem.
Good luck,
Lum

A few comments. Typically, high pH wines will not age well, so if you like
what you have, start drinking it. It may not get much better before it
starts to decline. No problem in this unless you keep it too long. I would
go ahead an bottle.

As a second option, you might want to bottle part of it as it and experiment
with bringing the pH down on part of it for longer term storage. Be aware
that the pH scale is logarithmic. At a high pH of 3.8 to 4.0 it does not
take much acid to bring the ph down. At 3.1 to 3.3 it would take a lot of
acid to bring the pH down. If you experiment on a gallon or so of the wine
you might find that you can reduce the pH to 3.5 to 3.6 without effecting
the acid taste of the wine very much.

Ray

"pp" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I've got some wines (Syrah, Cab) that ended up with high pH - the Syrah
> is around 3.9, the Cab 3.85. They're both about 10 months old and clear
> and the balance is great on both, so I don't want to muck with the
> acidity to get the pH down. I'm sulfiting based on the higher pH but
> after several months, I get some oxidation in the top of the carboy. So
> far this didn't seem to affect the layers under, but it makes me
> worried.
>
> The carboys are closed with the Ferm-Rite silicon waterless airlock,
> covered with 4 layers of Saran wrap tightened with a rubber band. I
> thought this would be enough to prevent any possible air intake in long
> term storage.
>
> So, the question - should I keep bulk aging to get to the stage when
> the sulfite level doesn't decrease so rapidly or should I just bottle
> now?
>
> Thx,
>
> Pp
>

Ray Calvert wrote:
> A few comments. Typically, high pH wines will not age well, so if you like
> what you have, start drinking it. It may not get much better before it
> starts to decline. No problem in this unless you keep it too long. I would
> go ahead an bottle.
>

Thanks, Ray. I heard this as a general principle but never saw it
really quantified, whether the decline is a matter of months or years.
I don't mind if the wine will last only 2-3 years, but if it's less
than a year or so, then I'd definitely prefer to lower the pH.

> As a second option, you might want to bottle part of it as it and experiment
> with bringing the pH down on part of it for longer term storage. Be aware
> that the pH scale is logarithmic. At a high pH of 3.8 to 4.0 it does not
> take much acid to bring the ph down. At 3.1 to 3.3 it would take a lot of
> acid to bring the pH down. If you experiment on a gallon or so of the wine
> you might find that you can reduce the pH to 3.5 to 3.6 without effecting
> the acid taste of the wine very much.

Actually, I was thinking along the same lines and done the expriment
already with a leftover bottle from 1st racking. I used 2g/L of
tartaric to bring it to 3.6, which turned out to be 3.5 after I froze
the wine for a week to cold stabilize fully. The TA actually stayed on
the same level as before the addition. This would definitely indicate
adding about 1.5g/L of tartaric is the way to go; the only quandary is
that I don't have great conditions for cold stabilization, and so there
is a fair chance the wine would end up too acidic. The TA is currently
at 6.5, and I don't really want the acidity higher that it is right
now.

I will probably go this route in the end so that I can compare the
taste development and aging capabilites in the two treatments. If the
acid is too high in the end, I can always blend it with what I make
this year I guess.

Pp

>
> Ray
>

Make sure you degassed the sample. 6.5 g/l and 3.85 pH seem out of
whack.

I pull 50 ml, boil, add distilled back to 50 ml when cool to room temp
and measure. It impacts TA severely; on the order of 1 to 2 g/l in my
experience.

Joe

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Make sure you degassed the sample. 6.5 g/l and 3.85 pH seem out of
> whack.
>
> I pull 50 ml, boil, add distilled back to 50 ml when cool to room temp
> and measure. It impacts TA severely; on the order of 1 to 2 g/l in my
> experience.
>
> Joe

Okay, thanks Joe, haven't thought about that. The wine is almost a year
old, was fermented relatively warm and has been sitting under an
airlock until now, so I figured CO2 wouldn't be an issue. It could also
be my sodium hydroxide - I've opened a new bottle but is has been
sitting in the storage room for a while. In any case, the TA is just a
rough reference number; at this stage, I prefer to adjust by the taste.

As an update, I racked the Syrah over the weekend, kept 6 gals as is
and added 1.5g/L tartaric to remaining 3 gals. The 3 gals will be cold
stabilized over winter.

There didn't seem to be any permanent damage from the oxidation at the
top, but per Lum's advice, I went back to solid bungs on these. Fingers
crossed, there won't be any more carboy explosions in the living
room...

Pp