Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.

Dick

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
> Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
> Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.

Wort? This is a winemaking NG!

Still, in either case it's best to use stainless. Aluminum is too reactive
for winemaking, and maybe for beer making as well.

BTW, although heating the wort is normal practice in brewing beer, there is
no reason to heat the ingredients in winemaking.

Tom S

Tom S > wrote:
>"Dick Adams" > wrote:
>> Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
>> Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.
>
>Wort? This is a winemaking NG!

This is also "a" meadmaking and brewing newsgroup.

>Still, in either case it's best to use stainless. Aluminum is too reactive
>for winemaking, and maybe for beer making as well.

Not for brewing.

>BTW, although heating the wort is normal practice in brewing beer, there is
>no reason to heat the ingredients in winemaking.

Does that presume making wine from (presumably sanitary) juice
or concentrates? If one is using fresh fruit would pasteurization
be called for?
--
Joel Plutchak "Experience is not what happens to a man.
It is what a man does with what happens
to him." - Aldous Huxley

"Joel" > wrote in message
...
>>BTW, although heating the wort is normal practice in brewing beer, there
>>is
>>no reason to heat the ingredients in winemaking.
>
> Does that presume making wine from (presumably sanitary) juice
> or concentrates? If one is using fresh fruit would pasteurization
> be called for?

Wineries make wine from fresh fruit and _never_ pasteurize the juice/must.

Tom S

Tom S > wrote:
>"Joel" > wrote in message
>>>BTW, although heating the wort is normal practice in brewing beer, there
>>>is
>>>no reason to heat the ingredients in winemaking.
>>
>> Does that presume making wine from (presumably sanitary) juice
>> or concentrates? If one is using fresh fruit would pasteurization
>> be called for?
>
>Wineries make wine from fresh fruit and _never_ pasteurize the juice/must.

Interesting. I know that in the brewing world, people who
brew at home do so with different equipment and in an environment
that is often not as clean as a commercial facility may be, so
homebrewers often take some extra precautions and/or use somewhat
different procedures than do commercial breweries. Are there no
such considerations in the winemaking milieu?
--
Joel Plutchak "Experience is not what happens to a man.
It is what a man does with what happens
to him." - Aldous Huxley

Dick Adams wrote:
> Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
> Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.

No -- I prefer stainless for ease of cleaning, but there's no
requirement that your brewpot be shiny clean -- I just hate dirty
equipment.


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Tom S wrote:
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
>>Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.
>
>
> Wort? This is a winemaking NG!
>
> Still, in either case it's best to use stainless. Aluminum is too reactive
> for winemaking, and maybe for beer making as well.
>
> BTW, although heating the wort is normal practice in brewing beer, there is
> no reason to heat the ingredients in winemaking.
>

I just noticed this was crossposted to the wine groups. Al is fine for
beer. Possibly not for wine, and I don't know about mead.

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I agree with Tom - use stainless steel or food-grade plastic - do not use
aluminum. I have an aluminum pot and it reacts funny to certain things you
cook in it - I would NOT use it for making wine.
Darlene

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
> Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
> Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.
>
> Dick

You'll be fine. When you say must, I'm assuming that your talking
about mead and other wild wines as grape must doesn't need to be
heated. Charlie Papazian has given aluminum pots a blessing saying
that even large breweries tend to use copper material and that like
copper, aluminum tends to heat more evenly. I do recommend, however,
that you get an acid blend, fill your aluminum pot up with water, put
in the blend then bring to a boil. It will likely darken the aluminum
from oxidation. Don't scrub this off as shiny aluminum is not what you
want. You want this protective layer of oxidation. Then you can relax
and have a homebrew.

Also, keep in mind that many brewers will freak out if you say you use
aluminum or copper, yet they'll boil thier copper wort chillers in
their wort to sanitize it for a good 45 minutes including sanitizing it
and using it to cool their wort. My advice to you is to disregard them
and try it with a five gallon batch, then without telling them let them
sample your mead, wild wine, or beer. They won't taste anything and
you'll feel much more confident about it.

PS. One teaspoon of acid blend should do the trick for a five gallon
boil to oxidize the aluminum.

In rec.crafts.brewing Dar V > wrote:
> I agree with Tom - use stainless steel or food-grade plastic - do not use
> aluminum. I have an aluminum pot and it reacts funny to certain things you
> cook in it - I would NOT use it for making wine.
> Darlene
>

I'd like to add to that - aluminum is also not very good at dispersing
thermal energy and one can develop a wicked "hot spot" on the bottom
of your pot during boiling, which may not be desireable. For even heat
distribution, statinless steel is your pot of choice in this context.

> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
>> Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.
>>
>> Dick
>
>


--------------------------------------------
John Bleichert -
Have you been eaten by a grue lately?

John Bleichert wrote:
> In rec.crafts.brewing Dar V > wrote:
>
>>I agree with Tom - use stainless steel or food-grade plastic - do not use
>>aluminum. I have an aluminum pot and it reacts funny to certain things you
>>cook in it - I would NOT use it for making wine.
>>Darlene
>>
>
>
> I'd like to add to that - aluminum is also not very good at dispersing
> thermal energy and one can develop a wicked "hot spot" on the bottom
> of your pot during boiling, which may not be desireable. For even heat
> distribution, statinless steel is your pot of choice in this context.
>

Really? I was under the impression that aluminum was a far better
_conductor_ of heat than stainless -- one of the reasons that it is used
extensively in the construction of heat sinks. Wouldn't good conduction
characteristics imply good dispersal characteristics, or are these not
really the same thing? I'm just asking -- I use Al in brewing, but only
for heating water, not as a wort boiler, so I wouldn't notice hot spots.

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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty > writes:
> Really? I was under the impression that aluminum was a far better
> _conductor_ of heat than stainless -- one of the reasons that it is
> used extensively in the construction of heat sinks. Wouldn't good
> conduction characteristics imply good dispersal characteristics, or
> are these not really the same thing?

Not exactly. How well a plate of metal disperses heat is a function
of both its conductivity and its thickness. A good first-order
approximation is that dispersion is proportional to
conductivity*thickness.

So, for good dispersion, you need a thin layer of a highly conductive
material, or a thick layer of a poorly conductive material. Too thin
or too low in conductivity, and you'll get hot spots.

However, you don't want to get the material too thick, since the
thicker the material is, the slower its response to a change in the
input temperature (this is government by the conductivity and
thickness as the metals, as well as the specific heat and density of
the metal). So if you make a pot with a honkin' thick bottom
to keep good uniformity, it will also be poorly responsive to changes
in burner intensity. This is often more dangerous than "hot spots",
since it's often hard to precisely regulate burner intensity, so if
you are overheating whatever it is your are boiling/cooking, it will
take some time for the material to respond to the decrease in input
heat, and you'll keep over- and under-shooting the target. This make
sense?

Alas, both the problem of hot spots and the problem of poor thermal
response are often lumped together.

As to the original topic of comparing SS to aluminum: you can't
directly compare them without knowing the thicknesses, and beware of
pots that have really thick bottoms as well.

--
Richard W Kaszeta

http://www.kaszeta.org/rich

Richard Kaszeta wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty > writes:
>
>>Really? I was under the impression that aluminum was a far better
>>_conductor_ of heat than stainless -- one of the reasons that it is
>>used extensively in the construction of heat sinks. Wouldn't good
>>conduction characteristics imply good dispersal characteristics, or
>>are these not really the same thing?
>
>
> Not exactly. How well a plate of metal disperses heat is a function
> of both its conductivity and its thickness. A good first-order
> approximation is that dispersion is proportional to
> conductivity*thickness.
>
> So, for good dispersion, you need a thin layer of a highly conductive
> material, or a thick layer of a poorly conductive material. Too thin
> or too low in conductivity, and you'll get hot spots.
>
> However, you don't want to get the material too thick, since the
> thicker the material is, the slower its response to a change in the
> input temperature (this is government by the conductivity and
> thickness as the metals, as well as the specific heat and density of
> the metal). So if you make a pot with a honkin' thick bottom
> to keep good uniformity, it will also be poorly responsive to changes
> in burner intensity. This is often more dangerous than "hot spots",
> since it's often hard to precisely regulate burner intensity, so if
> you are overheating whatever it is your are boiling/cooking, it will
> take some time for the material to respond to the decrease in input
> heat, and you'll keep over- and under-shooting the target. This make
> sense?
>

Well, when you use highly technical jargon like "honkin' thick bottom"
it DOES tend to muddy the waters a bit, but, yes -- it makes sense.

When brewers talk about using al pots, I think they usually mean the
turkey-fry variety -- I have no idea what the thickness is on these
(even though I have one). I imagine conductivity also varies with alloy
used.

As a practical matter, however, homebrewers use these pretty extensively
with no major problems reported. I'm speaking of grain brewers, where
full volume boils are the norm. The situation may be somewhat different
for extract brewers, where concentrated boils are used and care has to
be taken when adding extract to make sure it doesn't settle on the
bottom of the pot and scorch. Most extract brewers I know generally use
fairly thin SS pots, though, which are pretty cheap in the 3-4 gallon range.

Cheers -- m

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The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty > writes:
> Well, when you use highly technical jargon like "honkin' thick bottom"
> it DOES tend to muddy the waters a bit, but, yes -- it makes sense.

That's why I got a PhD in mechanical engineering, so I can use such
precise terminology.

> When brewers talk about using al pots, I think they usually mean the
> turkey-fry variety -- I have no idea what the thickness is on these
> (even though I have one).

From my experience, it's usually 3-5 mm, which is pretty close to the
ideal thickness for Al, and doesn't provide any major complications
when forming the pot.

> I imagine conductivity also varies with
> alloy used.

A bit, but not much. Pure Al is around 30% more conductive than most
alloys (as opposed to copper, where even a little bit of alloying
metal usually cause's a huge drop in conductivity)

> The situation may be
> somewhat different for extract brewers, where concentrated boils are
> used and care has to be taken when adding extract to make sure it
> doesn't settle on the bottom of the pot and scorch.

There's no substitute for stirring...

--
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http://www.kaszeta.org/rich

In rec.crafts.brewing Richard Kaszeta > wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty > writes:
>> Well, when you use highly technical jargon like "honkin' thick bottom"
>> it DOES tend to muddy the waters a bit, but, yes -- it makes sense.
>
> That's why I got a PhD in mechanical engineering, so I can use such
> precise terminology.
>
>> When brewers talk about using al pots, I think they usually mean the
>> turkey-fry variety -- I have no idea what the thickness is on these
>> (even though I have one).
>
> From my experience, it's usually 3-5 mm, which is pretty close to the
> ideal thickness for Al, and doesn't provide any major complications
> when forming the pot.
>
>> I imagine conductivity also varies with
>> alloy used.
>
> A bit, but not much. Pure Al is around 30% more conductive than most
> alloys (as opposed to copper, where even a little bit of alloying
> metal usually cause's a huge drop in conductivity)
>
>> The situation may be
>> somewhat different for extract brewers, where concentrated boils are
>> used and care has to be taken when adding extract to make sure it
>> doesn't settle on the bottom of the pot and scorch.
>
> There's no substitute for stirring...
>

'struth. I haven't brewed much yet (mostly still researching and
getting equipment and brewing with friends) but after cooking for
years (professionally and personally) I've had better luck avoiding
hotspots with stainless steel, *always*.

Luckily I've got a nice big ss stockpot to get started with :-)

--------------------------------------------
John Bleichert -
Have you been eaten by a grue lately?

John Bleichert wrote:
[snip]
>
> 'struth. I haven't brewed much yet (mostly still researching and
> getting equipment and brewing with friends) but after cooking for
> years (professionally and personally) I've had better luck avoiding
> hotspots with stainless steel, *always*.

Hot spots aren't a big deal with all-grain brewing -- typically (again,
all grain) you're boiling a large volume of liquid which isn't very
dense -- w/ specific gravities typically ranging from 1.030 to 1.085.
Primarily, the only issue is a bit of protein that "cooks" on the
bottom, but not scorching. Of course, this cooked protein is a lot
easier to clean from stainless because of the variety of cleaning agents
available -- the reason I use stainless -- but a lot of brewers feel no
need to get the pot completely clean beyond what they get with the
application of a little elbow grease.

It's really more of a cost issue for most people -- a 10 or 15 gallon Al
pot is a hell of a lot cheaper than a 10 or 15 gallon SS pot. 8.5 gallon
enameled steel canning pots are another limited but inexpensive option
for people starting out.

> Luckily I've got a nice big ss stockpot to get started with :-)

Enjoy the hobby -- it's addicting.

Cheers -- m
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John Bleichert wrote:
<snip>
>>There's no substitute for stirring...
>>
>
>
> 'struth. I haven't brewed much yet (mostly still researching and
> getting equipment and brewing with friends) but after cooking for
> years (professionally and personally) I've had better luck avoiding
> hotspots with stainless steel, *always*.
>
> Luckily I've got a nice big ss stockpot to get started with :-)
>
> --------------------------------------------
> John Bleichert -
> Have you been eaten by a grue lately?

This is probably less to do with thermal conductivity et-all and more to
do with surface finish, Aluminum will get pitted and all the nice sticky
proteins from beermaking will stick to the surface and burn, as SS
remains smoother then it probably does not catch the solids as readily.

Ben.
NB the above is only my own personal view.

"Joel" > wrote in message
...
>>Wineries make wine from fresh fruit and _never_ pasteurize the juice/must.
>
> Interesting. I know that in the brewing world, people who
> brew at home do so with different equipment and in an environment
> that is often not as clean as a commercial facility may be, so
> homebrewers often take some extra precautions and/or use somewhat
> different procedures than do commercial breweries. Are there no
> such considerations in the winemaking milieu?
> --

Not in terms of pasteurizing. It is true that most amateurs will get their
grapes in worse shape than a commercial winery will. We will generally give
the bunches a good looking over and pick out any moldy grapes. Sulfite
additions at crush are recommended for grapes that are a bit "gamey". But
for the most part the higher alcohol and lower ph of wine as compared to
beer, as well as maintenance of appropriate free SO2 levels, will protect
the wine from spoilage.

Brian

Denny Conn wrote:
> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>>Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
>>Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.
>
>
> It makes no difference at all..
>
> ----------->Denny
>
On the other hand, stainless steel is inert.

Joel wrote:

> Interesting. I know that in the brewing world, people who
> brew at home do so with different equipment and in an environment
> that is often not as clean as a commercial facility may be, so
> homebrewers often take some extra precautions and/or use somewhat
> different procedures than do commercial breweries. Are there no
> such considerations in the winemaking milieu?

Commercial wineries are NOT as clean as you might think. Rats, mice,
birds, BUGS in the grapes oh yeah lots of bugs sometimes.

Mike

"MeadMax" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
>
> Joel wrote:
>
>> Interesting. I know that in the brewing world, people who
>> brew at home do so with different equipment and in an environment
>> that is often not as clean as a commercial facility may be, so
>> homebrewers often take some extra precautions and/or use somewhat
>> different procedures than do commercial breweries. Are there no
>> such considerations in the winemaking milieu?
>
> Commercial wineries are NOT as clean as you might think. Rats, mice,
> birds, BUGS in the grapes oh yeah lots of bugs sometimes.
>

Reminds me of the first time I saw a crush here in OR. Lots and lots
of yellowjackets divebombing the crushed grapes as they came out and
getting tangled up in the goo. When one of the open tanks was full
they just dumped in some sulfite and stirred it in along with the
wasps.

They also had a pet pig (a little one, potbelly?) that lounged under
the crusher lapping up grape juice as it leaked out here and there.

Their wine was quite good.

--arne

> Mike
>

The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:

> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>> Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
>> Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.
>
>
> No -- I prefer stainless for ease of cleaning, but there's no
> requirement that your brewpot be shiny clean -- I just hate dirty
> equipment.
>
>
Stainless Steel is probably better, Acids can attack Aluminum over time
and you can end up with a little in your wine. Same thing can happen to
Stainless Steel, or any metal for that matter, but Stainless is a little
more resistant to acid etching than aluminum.

Now, as to why you might want to consider heating the must when a few
crushed Campden tablets will do the job nicely of sterilizing the must.
What if you, a member of your family, or friend that wants to imbibe
your wine has an allergy or sensitivity to Sulfites? Pasteurization
will somewhat affect the flavor of the wine, but it is one way of
sterilizing the must without using sulfites. I have done it myself, and
made some very satisfactory wine with this method.

Bruce_Nolte_N3LSY& wrote:
> The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty wrote:
>
>> Dick Adams wrote:
>>
>>> Does it really make a difference if you use an Aluminum pot or a
>>> Stainless Steel pot? This presumes you need to heat the wort/must.
>>
>>
>>
>> No -- I prefer stainless for ease of cleaning, but there's no
>> requirement that your brewpot be shiny clean -- I just hate dirty
>> equipment.
>>
>>
> Stainless Steel is probably better, Acids can attack Aluminum over time
> and you can end up with a little in your wine. Same thing can happen to
> Stainless Steel, or any metal for that matter, but Stainless is a little
> more resistant to acid etching than aluminum.
>
> Now, as to why you might want to consider heating the must when a few
> crushed Campden tablets will do the job nicely of sterilizing the must.
> What if you, a member of your family, or friend that wants to imbibe
> your wine has an allergy or sensitivity to Sulfites? Pasteurization
> will somewhat affect the flavor of the wine, but it is one way of
> sterilizing the must without using sulfites. I have done it myself, and
> made some very satisfactory wine with this method.

The OP was really referring to beer, I think, where a boil of anywhere
from 60 minutes to 4 hours (70-90 minutes typical) is standard practice.
Note also that at the time of the boil, beer is considerably less acidic
than wine (pH 5.2-5.4), although after fermentation pH can drop down to
around 4 or so. Either stainless or aluminum are fine as wort (pre-beer)
boiling vessels -- Al is just harder to clean.

The original message was crossposed to brewing, meadmaking and wine
groups -- probably not a great idea. I trimmed the ngs a tiny bit.

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