I have 20 gallons of a cab that I started from fresh grapes last fall.
I've kept a close eye on it and was planning on bottling next weekend.
As a prep to that, I moved things around yesterday and decided to
sample a little. It had a very tart taste. I ran a few tests and it
has a ph of 3.6. The tartaric acid is a bit high at 5.3.

Questions:

1,. Will aging eliminate the tartness?

2. Is it too late to drop the acid level?

I've had much success with kits and juices and this is my first go
round with fresh grapes. Am I missing anything?

Thanks,
Nick - NJ

Nick Ruchalski wrote:
> I have 20 gallons of a cab that I started from fresh grapes last fall.
> I've kept a close eye on it and was planning on bottling next weekend.
> As a prep to that, I moved things around yesterday and decided to
> sample a little. It had a very tart taste. I ran a few tests and it
> has a ph of 3.6. The tartaric acid is a bit high at 5.3.
>
> Questions:
>
> 1,. Will aging eliminate the tartness?
>
> 2. Is it too late to drop the acid level?
>
> I've had much success with kits and juices and this is my first go
> round with fresh grapes. Am I missing anything?
>
> Thanks,
> Nick - NJ


Hi Nick

Has this wine been cold stabilized?

Regards

Frank

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:15:15 -0500, Frank Mirigliano
> wrote:

>Nick Ruchalski wrote:
>> I have 20 gallons of a cab that I started from fresh grapes last fall.
>> I've kept a close eye on it and was planning on bottling next weekend.
>> As a prep to that, I moved things around yesterday and decided to
>> sample a little. It had a very tart taste. I ran a few tests and it
>> has a ph of 3.6. The tartaric acid is a bit high at 5.3.
>>
>> Questions:
>>
>> 1,. Will aging eliminate the tartness?
>>
>> 2. Is it too late to drop the acid level?
>>
>> I've had much success with kits and juices and this is my first go
>> round with fresh grapes. Am I missing anything?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nick - NJ
>
>
>Hi Nick
>
>Has this wine been cold stabilized?

I kept it stored in the basement, so the temperature was in the 55-60
degree F range.

>
>Regards
>
>Frank

That's not very cold, it will probably drop some crystals over the next
year.

A TA of 5.3 is really not that high, are you sure it's tartness and not
tannins or just 'greenness'? Why don't you pull off a bottles worth
and top the carboy? Keep the sample in the fridge for a few weeks and
see what it ends up like.

Reds at 5 months are kind of off tasting, several more months may make
a huge difference.

Joe

I agree with Joe. At 5 months acidity of red wines can taste kind of funny.
After a year you might find that a little more acid to adjust the pH down
would not hurt. But I cannot ever tell until it is well ages. If you like
oak, have you added any? That can help sometimes. What you want is to be
able to get the pH down in the 3.4 to 3.5 range and not have it taste like
lemonade. Age will probably help, oak might help (I would try it), and if
all else fails, just a tiny bit of sugar (as a last resort). I do not like
to adjust my red wines until they are between 1 and 2 years old and do not
bottle them until they are about 2+ years old. But I have been making wine
for a long time and have the luxury of a backlog. ;o)

Ray

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> That's not very cold, it will probably drop some crystals over the next
> year.
>
> A TA of 5.3 is really not that high, are you sure it's tartness and not
> tannins or just 'greenness'? Why don't you pull off a bottles worth
> and top the carboy? Keep the sample in the fridge for a few weeks and
> see what it ends up like.
>
> Reds at 5 months are kind of off tasting, several more months may make
> a huge difference.
>
> Joe
>

I agree with Joe. At 5 months acidity of red wines can taste kind of funny.
After a year you might find that a little more acid to adjust the pH down
would not hurt. But I cannot ever tell until it is well ages. If you like
oak, have you added any? That can help sometimes. What you want is to be
able to get the pH down in the 3.4 to 3.5 range and not have it taste like
lemonade. Age will probably help, oak might help (I would try it), and if
all else fails, just a tiny bit of sugar (as a last resort). I do not like
to adjust my red wines until they are between 1 and 2 years old and do not
bottle them until they are about 2+ years old. But I have been making wine
for a long time and have the luxury of a backlog. ;o)

Ray

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> That's not very cold, it will probably drop some crystals over the next
> year.
>
> A TA of 5.3 is really not that high, are you sure it's tartness and not
> tannins or just 'greenness'? Why don't you pull off a bottles worth
> and top the carboy? Keep the sample in the fridge for a few weeks and
> see what it ends up like.
>
> Reds at 5 months are kind of off tasting, several more months may make
> a huge difference.
>
> Joe
>

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> That's not very cold, it will probably drop some crystals over the
next
> year.
>
> A TA of 5.3 is really not that high, are you sure it's tartness and
not
> tannins or just 'greenness'? Why don't you pull off a bottles
worth
> and top the carboy? Keep the sample in the fridge for a few weeks
and
> see what it ends up like.
>
> Reds at 5 months are kind of off tasting, several more months may
make
> a huge difference.
>
> Joe

I would say 5.3 is actually on the low acid side, especially if the pH
is higher. I would recheck that measurement.

I wouldn't be concerned about the pH that much; there are plenty of
premium California wines coming out these days that are around 3.7.

Did the wine go through ML?

Pp

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> That's not very cold, it will probably drop some crystals over the
next
> year.
>
> A TA of 5.3 is really not that high, are you sure it's tartness and
not
> tannins or just 'greenness'? Why don't you pull off a bottles
worth
> and top the carboy? Keep the sample in the fridge for a few weeks
and
> see what it ends up like.
>
> Reds at 5 months are kind of off tasting, several more months may
make
> a huge difference.
>
> Joe

I would say 5.3 is actually on the low acid side, especially if the pH
is higher. I would recheck that measurement.

I wouldn't be concerned about the pH that much; there are plenty of
premium California wines coming out these days that are around 3.7.

Did the wine go through ML?

Pp

> "Nick Ruchalski" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I have 20 gallons of a cab that I started from fresh grapes last fall.
>> I've kept a close eye on it and was planning on bottling next weekend.
>> As a prep to that, I moved things around yesterday and decided to
>> sample a little. It had a very tart taste. I ran a few tests and it
>> has a ph of 3.6. The tartaric acid is a bit high at 5.3.
>>
>> Questions:
>>
>> 1,. Will aging eliminate the tartness?
>>
>> 2. Is it too late to drop the acid level?
>>
>> I've had much success with kits and juices and this is my first go
>> round with fresh grapes. Am I missing anything?

Those numbers are quite reasonable for a Cabernet. I wouldn't monkey around
with the TA if it were my wine.

OTOH, how confident are you that those are accurate readings? If they're
correct, I suspect that you simply got underripe fruit to begin with.
Another possibility is that the wine needs degassing. Dissolved CO2 can
make the wine seem tart.

Tom S

Nick,

Where did you get your grapes??? Hunts Point? Are they Papagni??? If
you got "fresh" grapes from the NYC area chances are they are not too
high in acid or TA. I've never NOT added alot of tartaric acid and this
year was no exception. If the above statements are true then I would
say that you may have either pressed too hard or you just have to wait
a little longer. Right now my wine from "fresh" california grapes has
that "chalky" feel to it in the mouth. Still very young. I find that
the wine really doesn't start coming around till after the summer. I'd
let it bulk age at least through Sept.

Bob

pp wrote:
> Joe Sallustio wrote:
> > That's not very cold, it will probably drop some crystals over the
> next
> > year.
> >
> > A TA of 5.3 is really not that high, are you sure it's tartness and
> not
> > tannins or just 'greenness'? Why don't you pull off a bottles
> worth
> > and top the carboy? Keep the sample in the fridge for a few weeks
> and
> > see what it ends up like.
> >
> > Reds at 5 months are kind of off tasting, several more months may
> make
> > a huge difference.
> >
> > Joe
>
> I would say 5.3 is actually on the low acid side, especially if the
pH
> is higher. I would recheck that measurement.
>
> I wouldn't be concerned about the pH that much; there are plenty of
> premium California wines coming out these days that are around 3.7.
>
> Did the wine go through ML?
>
> Pp

Nick,

Where did you get your grapes??? Hunts Point? Are they Papagni??? If
you got "fresh" grapes from the NYC area chances are they are not too
high in acid or TA. I've never NOT added alot of tartaric acid and this
year was no exception. If the above statements are true then I would
say that you may have either pressed too hard or you just have to wait
a little longer. Right now my wine from "fresh" california grapes has
that "chalky" feel to it in the mouth. Still very young. I find that
the wine really doesn't start coming around till after the summer. I'd
let it bulk age at least through Sept.

Bob

pp wrote:
> Joe Sallustio wrote:
> > That's not very cold, it will probably drop some crystals over the
> next
> > year.
> >
> > A TA of 5.3 is really not that high, are you sure it's tartness and
> not
> > tannins or just 'greenness'? Why don't you pull off a bottles
> worth
> > and top the carboy? Keep the sample in the fridge for a few weeks
> and
> > see what it ends up like.
> >
> > Reds at 5 months are kind of off tasting, several more months may
> make
> > a huge difference.
> >
> > Joe
>
> I would say 5.3 is actually on the low acid side, especially if the
pH
> is higher. I would recheck that measurement.
>
> I wouldn't be concerned about the pH that much; there are plenty of
> premium California wines coming out these days that are around 3.7.
>
> Did the wine go through ML?
>
> Pp

Thanks for all the suggestions! I've mulled things over and will
attempt to condense all suggestions and questions into this one post.

First off some answers. I bought the grapes at Corrado's in Clifton.
Unfortunatley I don't recall the brand name, Bob. And at Corrado's
they pressed the graps for me, I just came home with the juice. I did
take a bucket full of skins and added that to the fermentaion.

The wine did not go through ML, Pp. I will recheck acid levels again
this weekend. I think if I erred, it would be on the low side.

I wish I had a backlog! I wouldn't be as anxious as I am/was to
bottle. I did add oak chips after the first racking and took them out
after the second racking, Ray.

I think I'll hold off on the degassing suggestion or any additions and
instead I put a bottle in the fridge for retesting in a few weeks.

I tasted it again last night and would say that it could be
characterized as being green. Time may be my best friend here.
Well, hopefully that's the case. I'm very happy nobody informed me
that I messed up and to look into changing to vinegar!

Thanks for all the suggestions! I've mulled things over and will
attempt to condense all suggestions and questions into this one post.

First off some answers. I bought the grapes at Corrado's in Clifton.
Unfortunatley I don't recall the brand name, Bob. And at Corrado's
they pressed the graps for me, I just came home with the juice. I did
take a bucket full of skins and added that to the fermentaion.

The wine did not go through ML, Pp. I will recheck acid levels again
this weekend. I think if I erred, it would be on the low side.

I wish I had a backlog! I wouldn't be as anxious as I am/was to
bottle. I did add oak chips after the first racking and took them out
after the second racking, Ray.

I think I'll hold off on the degassing suggestion or any additions and
instead I put a bottle in the fridge for retesting in a few weeks.

I tasted it again last night and would say that it could be
characterized as being green. Time may be my best friend here.
Well, hopefully that's the case. I'm very happy nobody informed me
that I messed up and to look into changing to vinegar!

After more thought, I'd say that Tom S's suggestion of dissovled C02 is
"probably" the culprit. I even questioned my OWN "pressed to hard"
statement after I wrote it.

Bob


Nick Ruchalski wrote:
> Thanks for all the suggestions! I've mulled things over and will
> attempt to condense all suggestions and questions into this one post.

>
> First off some answers. I bought the grapes at Corrado's in Clifton.
> Unfortunatley I don't recall the brand name, Bob. And at Corrado's
> they pressed the graps for me, I just came home with the juice. I
did
> take a bucket full of skins and added that to the fermentaion.
>
> The wine did not go through ML, Pp. I will recheck acid levels again
> this weekend. I think if I erred, it would be on the low side.
>
> I wish I had a backlog! I wouldn't be as anxious as I am/was to
> bottle. I did add oak chips after the first racking and took them
out
> after the second racking, Ray.
>
> I think I'll hold off on the degassing suggestion or any additions
and
> instead I put a bottle in the fridge for retesting in a few weeks.
>
> I tasted it again last night and would say that it could be
> characterized as being green. Time may be my best friend here.
> Well, hopefully that's the case. I'm very happy nobody informed me
> that I messed up and to look into changing to vinegar!

After more thought, I'd say that Tom S's suggestion of dissovled C02 is
"probably" the culprit. I even questioned my OWN "pressed to hard"
statement after I wrote it.

Bob


Nick Ruchalski wrote:
> Thanks for all the suggestions! I've mulled things over and will
> attempt to condense all suggestions and questions into this one post.

>
> First off some answers. I bought the grapes at Corrado's in Clifton.
> Unfortunatley I don't recall the brand name, Bob. And at Corrado's
> they pressed the graps for me, I just came home with the juice. I
did
> take a bucket full of skins and added that to the fermentaion.
>
> The wine did not go through ML, Pp. I will recheck acid levels again
> this weekend. I think if I erred, it would be on the low side.
>
> I wish I had a backlog! I wouldn't be as anxious as I am/was to
> bottle. I did add oak chips after the first racking and took them
out
> after the second racking, Ray.
>
> I think I'll hold off on the degassing suggestion or any additions
and
> instead I put a bottle in the fridge for retesting in a few weeks.
>
> I tasted it again last night and would say that it could be
> characterized as being green. Time may be my best friend here.
> Well, hopefully that's the case. I'm very happy nobody informed me
> that I messed up and to look into changing to vinegar!