does anyone know whether or not there is a detriment to pumping wine
rather than siphoning it?

i'm moving wine between 200L tanks during racking, and the pump i'm
using is 3/4HP with 3/4" fittings and tube - it will pump 200L of wine
in about 5 minutes. For the reds this year, i was very careful on the
second and third rackings to ensure the tube outlet was at the bottom
of tank, hence preventing undue oxidation. I'm also ensuring a 6"
blanket of argon is sparged into the receiving tank before i pump.

I'll be doing white wine next, but am concerned the force of the pump
might be damaging to the effort.

thanks in advance for your help.
Darin Young, Vancouver BC

Darin Young > wrote:

> does anyone know whether or not there is a detriment to pumping
> wine rather than siphoning it?

A 200L tank!! 200L is not quite 53 gallons. You can siphon the
top half of one tank, but you still need to raise the other tank
to keep the siphon working!

> i'm moving wine between 200L tanks during racking, and the pump i'm
> using is 3/4HP with 3/4" fittings and tube - it will pump 200L of wine
> in about 5 minutes. For the reds this year, i was very careful on the
> second and third rackings to ensure the tube outlet was at the bottom
> of tank, hence preventing undue oxidation. I'm also ensuring a 6"
> blanket of argon is sparged into the receiving tank before i pump.
>
> I'll be doing white wine next, but am concerned the force of the pump
> might be damaging to the effort.

No idea.

Dick

"Darin Young" > wrote in message
om...
> does anyone know whether or not there is a detriment to pumping wine
> rather than siphoning it?
>
> i'm moving wine between 200L tanks during racking, and the pump i'm
> using is 3/4HP with 3/4" fittings and tube - it will pump 200L of wine
> in about 5 minutes. For the reds this year, i was very careful on the
> second and third rackings to ensure the tube outlet was at the bottom
> of tank, hence preventing undue oxidation. I'm also ensuring a 6"
> blanket of argon is sparged into the receiving tank before i pump.

200 liters of wine doesn't take all that long to move by siphon. What's
your hurry?

> I'll be doing white wine next, but am concerned the force of the pump
> might be damaging to the effort.

Red wines tend to be much more tolerant of a bit of air exposure than
whites, and may even benefit from it.

The most gentle methods of moving wines are siphoning by gravity and pumping
using inert gas counterpressure. Diaphragm pumps are also very good.

Tom S

I would siphon if i practically could, but raising my tanks high enough
would not be feasible. also, because a filled tank is basically
unmovable, sometimes the distance between the tanks would in itself
necessitate pumping.

Is it primarily the risk of oxidisation that i'm facing? The pump
itself is an italian model designed for wine use, i.e, stainless steel
housing and HDPE impeller. Is it then sufficient to sparge the
receiving tank with inert gas? Is that what you refer to as "inert gas
counterpressure", Tom?

thanks again for your thoughtful responses. this newsgroup is truly a
gem.

Darin Young

wrote:
> I would siphon if i practically could, but raising my tanks high enough
> would not be feasible. also, because a filled tank is basically
> unmovable, sometimes the distance between the tanks would in itself
> necessitate pumping.
>
> Is it primarily the risk of oxidisation that i'm facing? The pump
> itself is an italian model designed for wine use, i.e, stainless steel
> housing and HDPE impeller. Is it then sufficient to sparge the
> receiving tank with inert gas? Is that what you refer to as "inert gas
> counterpressure", Tom?
>
> thanks again for your thoughtful responses. this newsgroup is truly a
> gem.
>
> Darin Young
>
Just curious, where did you get the pump? How much did it cost?

The pump is actually a centrifugal 1/2hp Italian jes8 model. I bought
it in Burnaby, British Columbia, for somwhere around $325 Canadian
dollars (~260$US) from Bosa Grape and Juice - tel. 604 473-9463, and it
came on a handy trolley. Saint Patricks, in Austin, TX, also has a
fine selection of pumps (www.stpats.com).

Darin

The pump is actually a centrifugal 1/2hp Italian jes8 model. I bought
it in Burnaby, British Columbia, for somwhere around $325 Canadian
dollars (~260$US) from Bosa Grape and Juice - tel. 604 473-9463, and it
came on a handy trolley. Saint Patricks, in Austin, TX, also has a
fine selection of pumps (www.stpats.com).

Darin

) wrote:
>The pump is actually a centrifugal 1/2hp Italian jes8 model. I bought
>it in Burnaby, British Columbia, for somwhere around $325 Canadian
>dollars (~260$US) from Bosa Grape and Juice - tel. 604 473-9463, and it
>came on a handy trolley. Saint Patricks, in Austin, TX, also has a
>fine selection of pumps (www.stpats.com).

>Darin


Hi Darin,

Oxidation is the major issue. But reasonble people will disagree
about whether the simple pumping of wine, in and of itself, damages
wine. I'd think that if you're using a centrifugal pump, rather
than an impeller pump, you're probably not doing any real damage.
On the commercial scale, there are relatively few wineries who move
wine by gravity alone. It's just way too much of a pain and way too
expensive to do.

But like I said, there are people who would disagree and claim that
ANY pumping does damage wine. But there are also people who believe
that the world is flat. :-)

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Is it primarily the risk of oxidation that i'm facing? The pump
> itself is an italian model designed for wine use, i.e, stainless steel
> housing and HDPE impeller.

If it's made for wine use you can assume that it's OK for that purpose as
long as the seals are OK and you have no leaks at the connections.

Is it then sufficient to sparge the
> receiving tank with inert gas? Is that what you refer to as "inert gas
> counterpressure", Tom?

No to the latter. Inert gas counterpressure involves using a siphon to
direct the wine into another container and "pushing" the wine through the
siphon by pressurizing the delivery container with inert gas. I use this
technique to rack from oak barrels, but in principle you could use it on any
container that can handle the gas pressure. For safety purposes I limit the
pressure to about 3 to 5 PSI.

Tom S

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> Oxidation is the major issue. But reasonble people will disagree
> about whether the simple pumping of wine, in and of itself, damages
> wine.

The prevailing theory is that the wine is damaged by the shearing action and
localized heating that occurs during pumping. That may very well be a case
of picking the fly sh** out of the pepper though. ;^)

> On the commercial scale, there are relatively few wineries who move
> wine by gravity alone. It's just way too much of a pain and way too
> expensive to do.

True, and there have been some improvements in what's available for the
purpose. The winery I work out of has a bunch of plastic bodied, air
powered diaphragm pumps that do a great job of moving wine in as gentle a
fashion as possible. True, they don't have the volume to handle pumping a
100,000 gallon tank, but for us "micro-boutique" guys they're terrific!

Tom S

"Darin Young" > wrote in message
om...
> does anyone know whether or not there is a detriment to pumping wine
> rather than siphoning it?
>
> i'm moving wine between 200L tanks during racking, and the pump i'm
> using is 3/4HP with 3/4" fittings and tube - it will pump 200L of wine
> in about 5 minutes. For the reds this year, i was very careful on the
> second and third rackings to ensure the tube outlet was at the bottom
> of tank, hence preventing undue oxidation. I'm also ensuring a 6"
> blanket of argon is sparged into the receiving tank before i pump.
>
> I'll be doing white wine next, but am concerned the force of the pump
> might be damaging to the effort.
>
> thanks in advance for your help.
> Darin Young, Vancouver BC

I have read arguments that pumps burse the wine. Then I have helped
commercial winemakers use pumps to move wine. I will not get into the
argument one way or the other but if you are concerned about it, then you
should act on your concerns. Here is a description I posted on the
Meadmaking group of a pump that would not bruse the wine. The description
uses carboys. Could certainly modify the procedure to fit your containers.

---------------------------------------

An alternate type of pump is to run your siphon wand down into your source
carboy as you would when siphoning. Then put a rubber bung with two holes
in the target carboy. Place the target carboy where you want it to be
regardless of whether it is higher or lower than the original (within
reason,
5 or 10 feet, not 1 story to another). Now run a plastic wand or tube that
fits well down through one of the holes in the bung down several inches (at
least 8 or 10 inches below the bung) leaving one inch sticking out the tope
to connect a hose to, Connect a siphoned hose from the top of this tube to
the siphoned wand in the original carboy. Then put a tight fitting short
tube
in the second hole of the bung, again leaving one inch sticking out the top.
This tube should only go to the bottom of the bung. It should not extend
down in to the carboy. Now run a hose from this tube to any air pump. The
hoses should be strong enough to withstand the pressure of the vacuum you
pull. You should not pull much vacuum.

The target carboy with the bung should now be a sealed unit. It is
connected on one side to a pump that will draw air out of it to create a
vacuum and on the other side to an open wine source from which it will draw
wine to fill that vacuum. Wine never passed through the pump, only the
tubing. Vacuum can lift liquid 32 feet. You do not need to draw that much
vacuumed to lift it 3 or 4 feet to fill a carboy.

Many thanks for the wealth of information, gentlemen.

Darin

<<snip>>
You should not pull much vacuum.
>
> The target carboy with the bung should now be a sealed unit. It is
> connected on one side to a pump that will draw air out of it to create a
> vacuum and on the other side to an open wine source from which it will draw
> wine to fill that vacuum. Wine never passed through the pump, only the
> tubing. Vacuum can lift liquid 32 feet. You do not need to draw that much
> vacuumed to lift it 3 or 4 feet to fill a carboy.
>
>
Hi Ray

How much is not much? My vacuum pump will pull 27 inches on a 1 cubic
foot container. Obviously running it wide open would cause an implosion
in short order. Are we talking an inch or two is safe or would it be a
little more?

Regards

Frank

"Frank Mirigliano" > wrote in message
...
> <<snip>>
> You should not pull much vacuum.
>>
>> The target carboy with the bung should now be a sealed unit. It is
>> connected on one side to a pump that will draw air out of it to create a
>> vacuum and on the other side to an open wine source from which it will
>> draw
>> wine to fill that vacuum. Wine never passed through the pump, only the
>> tubing. Vacuum can lift liquid 32 feet. You do not need to draw that
>> much
>> vacuumed to lift it 3 or 4 feet to fill a carboy.
>>
>>
> Hi Ray
>
> How much is not much? My vacuum pump will pull 27 inches on a 1 cubic
> foot container. Obviously running it wide open would cause an implosion
> in short order. Are we talking an inch or two is safe or would it be a
> little more?
>
> Regards
>
> Frank

That might not be to much. You might try it. If you have to maybe you can
cut it back to less than maximum capacity. You do not want to pull too much
vacuum on you wine and you do not want to pull to hard of a streem through
the hoses. Just a good steady flow.

Ray

>

Ray Calvert wrote:
> "Frank Mirigliano" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>><<snip>>
>> You should not pull much vacuum.
>>
>>>The target carboy with the bung should now be a sealed unit. It is
>>>connected on one side to a pump that will draw air out of it to create a
>>>vacuum and on the other side to an open wine source from which it will
>>>draw
>>>wine to fill that vacuum. Wine never passed through the pump, only the
>>>tubing. Vacuum can lift liquid 32 feet. You do not need to draw that
>>>much
>>>vacuumed to lift it 3 or 4 feet to fill a carboy.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Hi Ray
>>
>>How much is not much? My vacuum pump will pull 27 inches on a 1 cubic
>>foot container. Obviously running it wide open would cause an implosion
>>in short order. Are we talking an inch or two is safe or would it be a
>>little more?
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Frank
>
>
> That might not be to much. You might try it. If you have to maybe you can
> cut it back to less than maximum capacity. You do not want to pull too much
> vacuum on you wine and you do not want to pull to hard of a streem through
> the hoses. Just a good steady flow.
>
> Ray
>
>
>
>
Hi Ray

This pump will pull 27 inches of mercury or nearly pull a vacuum on a
one cubic foot container. It was formerly used to evacuate the air from
silicone rubber molds. The cover used on that setup is one inch thick
ballistic lexan. When we used quarter inch lexan the pump was strong
enough to implode the cover.

Maybe it would be prudent to try an experiment using a couple of plastic
carboys and water to see what the threshold is for that set up and then
dial it back some for glass.

Regards

Frank

>
> An alternate type of pump is to run your siphon wand down into your source
> carboy as you would when siphoning. Then put a rubber bung with two holes
> in the target carboy. Place the target carboy where you want it to be
> regardless of whether it is higher or lower than the original (within
> reason,
> 5 or 10 feet, not 1 story to another). Now run a plastic wand or tube that
> fits well down through one of the holes in the bung down several inches (at
> least 8 or 10 inches below the bung) leaving one inch sticking out the tope
> to connect a hose to, Connect a siphoned hose from the top of this tube to
> the siphoned wand in the original carboy. Then put a tight fitting short
> tube
> in the second hole of the bung, again leaving one inch sticking out the top.
> This tube should only go to the bottom of the bung. It should not extend
> down in to the carboy. Now run a hose from this tube to any air pump. The
> hoses should be strong enough to withstand the pressure of the vacuum you
> pull. You should not pull much vacuum.
>
> The target carboy with the bung should now be a sealed unit. It is
> connected on one side to a pump that will draw air out of it to create a
> vacuum and on the other side to an open wine source from which it will draw
> wine to fill that vacuum. Wine never passed through the pump, only the
> tubing. Vacuum can lift liquid 32 feet. You do not need to draw that much

I have the need to rack between 150 L variable capacity stainless tanks.
Wondering if I can replace the plastic airlock with a bung and do this.
Also wondering if the stainless tanks can deal with the pressure.
Anyone try this with SS tanks before?

thx,
dan