Greetings all;

Brand new to this NG and hobby. Everyone seems civilized here, (unlike some
other NG's I follow)
so hope you don't mind helping a new guy with a question thta has most
likely been posted a zillion times prior, and google isn't real specific for
helping.

My wife started some home pressed apple cider with a montrachet yeast and is
about ready to move to the secondary fermenter (glass jug). The book she
has says when the specific gravity reaches 1.04 it's time to rack. It did
yesterday and was even at 1.035 last evening. She stirred it before
testing, so told her to let it settle until this morning and we'd do it
then. She didn't want to diddle until tonight, so reckon it will be down a
bit more.

I realize newbies get hung up on numbers, and the feeling of "oh-oh" sets in
when you've overshot a bit, but if like most other things it's only a
target, with a bit either side not being super critical. Help us through
this phase.

My question (sorry about the verboseness) is: with the specific gravity
headed a bit lower, does that mean the alcohol content is rising? The
primary fermentation is speeding the process of the secondary; and cheating
it of vital nutrients? I'm lost.

Thanks
Mark

There is some element of confusion about "primary" and "secondary"
fermentation

Having been making so called "country wines" for over 30 years and more
recently since kit wine makers made huge improvements with the end product
of their kits, I have also made quite a lot of top line Kit wines.

Secondary fermentation always meant, to me, one of two things.

1. That fermentation that takes place in the bottle of sparkling wines to
produce the "Fizz" and also the similar process that takes place in
"Bottled conditioned" beers.
2. Also in wine making the Malolactic fermentation was always referred to as
a "secondary fermentation.

Both these types were true secondary fermentation in that the fermentation
was "RESTARTED" at some time after the primary fermentation had finished. In
the case of my sparkling wines it was not less than 6 months after the
primary had finished!

BUT the wine kit manufacturers "stole" the term as their kits improved and
these days "Secondary Fermentation" frequently refers to the continuation of
the Primary fermentation after a first racking off the lees. It really is
just a continuation of the primary fermentation!

So you don't have to worry about the "secondary" cheating your must of its
necessary nutrients and going too fast. As far as I can tell from your
ost --- all is OK

In fact, after racking into the new "glass jug" and as the SG creeps lower,
the fermentation slows down very quickly ( yes I know that sounds potty!).
As the sugars decrease and the alcohol increases so the yeast has less sugar
to convert and is also finding that living conditions are becoming more
difficult due to the increase level of alcohol and the yeasts give up the
ghost and go to the yeast place in the sky!


--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"pheasant" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings all;
>
> Brand new to this NG and hobby. Everyone seems civilized here, (unlike
> some other NG's I follow)

<snip><snip>

> I realize newbies get hung up on numbers, and the feeling of "oh-oh" sets
> in when you've overshot a bit, but if like most other things it's only a
> target, with a bit either side not being super critical. Help us through
> this phase.
>
> My question (sorry about the verboseness) is: with the specific gravity
> headed a bit lower, does that mean the alcohol content is rising? The
> primary fermentation is speeding the process of the secondary; and
> cheating it of vital nutrients? I'm lost.
>
> Thanks
> Mark
>

There is some element of confusion about "primary" and "secondary"
fermentation

Having been making so called "country wines" for over 30 years and more
recently since kit wine makers made huge improvements with the end product
of their kits, I have also made quite a lot of top line Kit wines.

Secondary fermentation always meant, to me, one of two things.

1. That fermentation that takes place in the bottle of sparkling wines to
produce the "Fizz" and also the similar process that takes place in
"Bottled conditioned" beers.
2. Also in wine making the Malolactic fermentation was always referred to as
a "secondary fermentation.

Both these types were true secondary fermentation in that the fermentation
was "RESTARTED" at some time after the primary fermentation had finished. In
the case of my sparkling wines it was not less than 6 months after the
primary had finished!

BUT the wine kit manufacturers "stole" the term as their kits improved and
these days "Secondary Fermentation" frequently refers to the continuation of
the Primary fermentation after a first racking off the lees. It really is
just a continuation of the primary fermentation!

So you don't have to worry about the "secondary" cheating your must of its
necessary nutrients and going too fast. As far as I can tell from your
ost --- all is OK

In fact, after racking into the new "glass jug" and as the SG creeps lower,
the fermentation slows down very quickly ( yes I know that sounds potty!).
As the sugars decrease and the alcohol increases so the yeast has less sugar
to convert and is also finding that living conditions are becoming more
difficult due to the increase level of alcohol and the yeasts give up the
ghost and go to the yeast place in the sky!


--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"pheasant" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings all;
>
> Brand new to this NG and hobby. Everyone seems civilized here, (unlike
> some other NG's I follow)

<snip><snip>

> I realize newbies get hung up on numbers, and the feeling of "oh-oh" sets
> in when you've overshot a bit, but if like most other things it's only a
> target, with a bit either side not being super critical. Help us through
> this phase.
>
> My question (sorry about the verboseness) is: with the specific gravity
> headed a bit lower, does that mean the alcohol content is rising? The
> primary fermentation is speeding the process of the secondary; and
> cheating it of vital nutrients? I'm lost.
>
> Thanks
> Mark
>

I don't think you will find many people who will bit the head off a newbie
for asking a question but you will find that many of us old timers do
disagree among ourselves.

Trevor always gives good advise so listen to him. But I do have a different
view on the terms. If you look back at the books that were written many
years ago you will find the terms primary and secondary used very much as
the kit makers use them.

When wine starts off, it is important to let the yeast have O2 as it is
needed it for reproduction. Of course O2 is very bad for wine so at some
point you need to exclude the air. After 3 to 7 days the yeast will have
reproduced to an acceptable level and the alcohol level will have increased
to a level that is at risk of being oxidized and you move the wine to a
sealed container, excluding air. This stage is called Secondary.

You could consider the Primary as an aerobic fermentation stage and the
Secondary as an anaerobic stage. I am not sure that is exactly accurate but
I have seen it described that way.

There are many ways of determining when to rack to secondary. Some recipes
just say rack after a certain number of days. Others say do it at a certain
SG. Many fruit wines, including red grape, may say to rack it when the cap
falls. They are all imprecise indicators and you could use any of them.

Just remember that wine making is a very forgiving hobby. Some people skip
primary entirely and start in secondary. Others may wait until the SG drops
to much lower than 1.040. I have had some fast fermenting wines hit 1.000
before I racked them. I don't recommend this but it still came out.

Ray

"pinky" > wrote in message
...
> There is some element of confusion about "primary" and "secondary"
> fermentation
>
> Having been making so called "country wines" for over 30 years and more
> recently since kit wine makers made huge improvements with the end
> product of their kits, I have also made quite a lot of top line Kit
> wines.
>
> Secondary fermentation always meant, to me, one of two things.
>
> 1. That fermentation that takes place in the bottle of sparkling wines to
> produce the "Fizz" and also the similar process that takes place in
> "Bottled conditioned" beers.
> 2. Also in wine making the Malolactic fermentation was always referred to
> as a "secondary fermentation.
>
> Both these types were true secondary fermentation in that the fermentation
> was "RESTARTED" at some time after the primary fermentation had finished.
> In the case of my sparkling wines it was not less than 6 months after the
> primary had finished!
>
> BUT the wine kit manufacturers "stole" the term as their kits improved
> and these days "Secondary Fermentation" frequently refers to the
> continuation of the Primary fermentation after a first racking off the
> lees. It really is just a continuation of the primary fermentation!
>
> So you don't have to worry about the "secondary" cheating your must of its
> necessary nutrients and going too fast. As far as I can tell from your
> st --- all is OK
>
> In fact, after racking into the new "glass jug" and as the SG creeps
> lower, the fermentation slows down very quickly ( yes I know that sounds
> potty!). As the sugars decrease and the alcohol increases so the yeast has
> less sugar to convert and is also finding that living conditions are
> becoming more difficult due to the increase level of alcohol and the
> yeasts give up the ghost and go to the yeast place in the sky!
>
>
> --
> Trevor A Panther
> In South Yorkshire, England
> Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
> All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
> Anti Virus for your protection too!
> "pheasant" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Greetings all;
>>
>> Brand new to this NG and hobby. Everyone seems civilized here, (unlike
>> some other NG's I follow)
>
> <snip><snip>
>
>> I realize newbies get hung up on numbers, and the feeling of "oh-oh" sets
>> in when you've overshot a bit, but if like most other things it's only a
>> target, with a bit either side not being super critical. Help us through
>> this phase.
>>
>> My question (sorry about the verboseness) is: with the specific gravity
>> headed a bit lower, does that mean the alcohol content is rising? The
>> primary fermentation is speeding the process of the secondary; and
>> cheating it of vital nutrients? I'm lost.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mark
>>
>
>

I don't think you will find many people who will bit the head off a newbie
for asking a question but you will find that many of us old timers do
disagree among ourselves.

Trevor always gives good advise so listen to him. But I do have a different
view on the terms. If you look back at the books that were written many
years ago you will find the terms primary and secondary used very much as
the kit makers use them.

When wine starts off, it is important to let the yeast have O2 as it is
needed it for reproduction. Of course O2 is very bad for wine so at some
point you need to exclude the air. After 3 to 7 days the yeast will have
reproduced to an acceptable level and the alcohol level will have increased
to a level that is at risk of being oxidized and you move the wine to a
sealed container, excluding air. This stage is called Secondary.

You could consider the Primary as an aerobic fermentation stage and the
Secondary as an anaerobic stage. I am not sure that is exactly accurate but
I have seen it described that way.

There are many ways of determining when to rack to secondary. Some recipes
just say rack after a certain number of days. Others say do it at a certain
SG. Many fruit wines, including red grape, may say to rack it when the cap
falls. They are all imprecise indicators and you could use any of them.

Just remember that wine making is a very forgiving hobby. Some people skip
primary entirely and start in secondary. Others may wait until the SG drops
to much lower than 1.040. I have had some fast fermenting wines hit 1.000
before I racked them. I don't recommend this but it still came out.

Ray

"pinky" > wrote in message
...
> There is some element of confusion about "primary" and "secondary"
> fermentation
>
> Having been making so called "country wines" for over 30 years and more
> recently since kit wine makers made huge improvements with the end
> product of their kits, I have also made quite a lot of top line Kit
> wines.
>
> Secondary fermentation always meant, to me, one of two things.
>
> 1. That fermentation that takes place in the bottle of sparkling wines to
> produce the "Fizz" and also the similar process that takes place in
> "Bottled conditioned" beers.
> 2. Also in wine making the Malolactic fermentation was always referred to
> as a "secondary fermentation.
>
> Both these types were true secondary fermentation in that the fermentation
> was "RESTARTED" at some time after the primary fermentation had finished.
> In the case of my sparkling wines it was not less than 6 months after the
> primary had finished!
>
> BUT the wine kit manufacturers "stole" the term as their kits improved
> and these days "Secondary Fermentation" frequently refers to the
> continuation of the Primary fermentation after a first racking off the
> lees. It really is just a continuation of the primary fermentation!
>
> So you don't have to worry about the "secondary" cheating your must of its
> necessary nutrients and going too fast. As far as I can tell from your
> st --- all is OK
>
> In fact, after racking into the new "glass jug" and as the SG creeps
> lower, the fermentation slows down very quickly ( yes I know that sounds
> potty!). As the sugars decrease and the alcohol increases so the yeast has
> less sugar to convert and is also finding that living conditions are
> becoming more difficult due to the increase level of alcohol and the
> yeasts give up the ghost and go to the yeast place in the sky!
>
>
> --
> Trevor A Panther
> In South Yorkshire, England
> Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
> All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
> Anti Virus for your protection too!
> "pheasant" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Greetings all;
>>
>> Brand new to this NG and hobby. Everyone seems civilized here, (unlike
>> some other NG's I follow)
>
> <snip><snip>
>
>> I realize newbies get hung up on numbers, and the feeling of "oh-oh" sets
>> in when you've overshot a bit, but if like most other things it's only a
>> target, with a bit either side not being super critical. Help us through
>> this phase.
>>
>> My question (sorry about the verboseness) is: with the specific gravity
>> headed a bit lower, does that mean the alcohol content is rising? The
>> primary fermentation is speeding the process of the secondary; and
>> cheating it of vital nutrients? I'm lost.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mark
>>
>
>

I use a primary which has a tight fitting lid and a airlock. This allows
me to ferment my must to dry before I tranfer to the glass carboy for
clearing. Most people I have come across that transfer before its dry,
either do because they have been taught that way, or they drape a cloth or
cheese cloth over the top of their primary for the yeast to get oxygen.
Also, the instructions on kits are made to be foolproof so they must be very
conservative. That means transfer a little early incase the primary is not
checked on early enough- which probably happens often with our busy lives.
Lastly, Follow The Directions for the recipe. Even though I was taught it
is okay to ferment wine dry in the sealed primary I follow the directions
when doing an expensive kit from WineExpert or RJ. If your still looking
for information there is a forum www.winepress.us that has had this
discussion, do a search and see what others say, every has their way.

I use a primary which has a tight fitting lid and a airlock. This allows
me to ferment my must to dry before I tranfer to the glass carboy for
clearing. Most people I have come across that transfer before its dry,
either do because they have been taught that way, or they drape a cloth or
cheese cloth over the top of their primary for the yeast to get oxygen.
Also, the instructions on kits are made to be foolproof so they must be very
conservative. That means transfer a little early incase the primary is not
checked on early enough- which probably happens often with our busy lives.
Lastly, Follow The Directions for the recipe. Even though I was taught it
is okay to ferment wine dry in the sealed primary I follow the directions
when doing an expensive kit from WineExpert or RJ. If your still looking
for information there is a forum www.winepress.us that has had this
discussion, do a search and see what others say, every has their way.

"scott f" > wrote in message
news:CTEDd.57$ig7.23@trnddc04...
> I use a primary which has a tight fitting lid and a airlock. This allows
> me to ferment my must to dry before I tranfer to the glass carboy for
> clearing. Most people I have come across that transfer before its dry,
> either do because they have been taught that way, or they drape a cloth or
> cheese cloth over the top of their primary for the yeast to get oxygen.

OK, hold it right there!!!!
I have never heard of "yeast needing oxygen" to get started as being the
reason why people begin fermentation in buckets covered with cheesecloth. I
have been making wine since 1977. Today is the first time I have =ever=
heard that yeastie-beasties needed O2 to get going. I always assumed that
the reason people fermented in buckets to start with was because of the
difficulty of keeping foam under control and not overloading the
carboy/airlock combo's ability to bubble w/o splashing purple foam all over
the walls (been there, done that).
So what gives? How have I been making good wine for 28 years by putting
the juice in the carboy and slapping an airlock on it from the word go?????
I have even done this when using pureed fruit, such as blueberries......
Someone please explain this to me.
TIA,
Blobert!
--
--
"Honey, would you get me a beer?!"
- Adam's first words to Eve-

Bob
You are totally right -- but the oxygen bit is a real need. It just so
happens that there is enough around in normal circumstances.
I have done exactly the same thing ( well very nearly). I have never covered
with just a muslin/cheese cloth but always with a"sealing"type lid or a very
tight lid with a fermentation lock. There is enough oxygen in the water
added to "fruit" wines inherently and if you are punching down a fruit cap
daily there is another source of oxygen.and in any case the header space has
a lot of it too!
I have always thought that the main reason for covering with a "cloth" was
to stop the fruit flies getting to my must and that the vigorous initial
fermentation kept a substantial "blanket" of CO2 over the must anyway

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> "scott f" > wrote in message
> news:CTEDd.57$ig7.23@trnddc04...
>> I use a primary which has a tight fitting lid and a airlock. This
>> allows
>> me to ferment my must to dry before I tranfer to the glass carboy for
>> clearing. Most people I have come across that transfer before its dry,
>> either do because they have been taught that way, or they drape a cloth
>> or
>> cheese cloth over the top of their primary for the yeast to get oxygen.
>
> OK, hold it right there!!!!
> I have never heard of "yeast needing oxygen" to get started as being
> the
> reason why people begin fermentation in buckets covered with cheesecloth.
> I
> have been making wine since 1977. Today is the first time I have =ever=
> heard that yeastie-beasties needed O2 to get going. I always assumed that
> the reason people fermented in buckets to start with was because of the
> difficulty of keeping foam under control and not overloading the
> carboy/airlock combo's ability to bubble w/o splashing purple foam all
> over
> the walls (been there, done that).
> So what gives? How have I been making good wine for 28 years by putting
> the juice in the carboy and slapping an airlock on it from the word
> go?????
> I have even done this when using pureed fruit, such as
> blueberries......
> Someone please explain this to me.
> TIA,
> Blobert!
> --
> --
> "Honey, would you get me a beer?!"
> - Adam's first words to Eve-
>
>
>

scott f wrote:

> I use a primary which has a tight fitting lid and a airlock.
>
I have also done this. I have also fermented using a loose fitting cover
without having an air tight fit or airlock. I really can not say which
method is better.

I know a lot of people CLAIM that the fermentation needs Oxygen in the early
stages but I doubt it as long as you prepare a good starter before
pitching.

The protective layer of CO2 on an active fermentation is going to keep most
O2 exposure out anyhow. When using a non airlock primary, it IS important
to watch and make sure that you transfer to airlock BEFORE you loose the
protective layer of CO2 on top of the must. With an airtight lid and
airlock, you do not have to be as concerned.

These are just my opinions and I am sure others will tell me that I am wrong
and how important it is to have air for the primary. I have not proven
this to be true to myself. Now days, I just cover to keep the bugs out and
transfer when the cap drops - meaning the CO2 is not sufficient to raise
the solids and also provide a protective cap and therefore there is a risk
of spoilage.

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> "scott f" > wrote in message
> news:CTEDd.57$ig7.23@trnddc04...
> > I use a primary which has a tight fitting lid and a airlock. This
allows
> > me to ferment my must to dry before I tranfer to the glass carboy for
> > clearing. Most people I have come across that transfer before its dry,
> > either do because they have been taught that way, or they drape a cloth
or
> > cheese cloth over the top of their primary for the yeast to get oxygen.
>
> OK, hold it right there!!!!
> I have never heard of "yeast needing oxygen" to get started as being
the
> reason why people begin fermentation in buckets covered with cheesecloth.
I
> have been making wine since 1977. Today is the first time I have =ever=
> heard that yeastie-beasties needed O2 to get going. I always assumed that
> the reason people fermented in buckets to start with was because of the
> difficulty of keeping foam under control and not overloading the
> carboy/airlock combo's ability to bubble w/o splashing purple foam all
over
> the walls (been there, done that).
> So what gives? How have I been making good wine for 28 years by
putting
> the juice in the carboy and slapping an airlock on it from the word
go?????
> I have even done this when using pureed fruit, such as
blueberries......
> Someone please explain this to me.
> TIA,
> Blobert!
> --
> --
> "Honey, would you get me a beer?!"
> - Adam's first words to Eve-

Blobert,

Yeast does need oxygen to multiply, but under normal conditions, enough
oxygen is dissolved in the liquid at the start of fermentation. More info
here
http://www.sdaws.org/Articles/Article5.htm

Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
>
> "scott f" > wrote in message
> news:CTEDd.57$ig7.23@trnddc04...
> > I use a primary which has a tight fitting lid and a airlock. This
allows
> > me to ferment my must to dry before I tranfer to the glass carboy for
> > clearing. Most people I have come across that transfer before its dry,
> > either do because they have been taught that way, or they drape a cloth
or
> > cheese cloth over the top of their primary for the yeast to get oxygen.
>
> OK, hold it right there!!!!
> I have never heard of "yeast needing oxygen" to get started as being
the
> reason why people begin fermentation in buckets covered with cheesecloth.
I
> have been making wine since 1977. Today is the first time I have =ever=
> heard that yeastie-beasties needed O2 to get going. I always assumed that
> the reason people fermented in buckets to start with was because of the
> difficulty of keeping foam under control and not overloading the
> carboy/airlock combo's ability to bubble w/o splashing purple foam all
over
> the walls (been there, done that).
> So what gives? How have I been making good wine for 28 years by
putting
> the juice in the carboy and slapping an airlock on it from the word
go?????
> I have even done this when using pureed fruit, such as
blueberries......
> Someone please explain this to me.
> TIA,
> Blobert!
> --
> --
> "Honey, would you get me a beer?!"
> - Adam's first words to Eve-

Blobert,

Yeast does need oxygen to multiply, but under normal conditions, enough
oxygen is dissolved in the liquid at the start of fermentation. More info
here
http://www.sdaws.org/Articles/Article5.htm

Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

"pheasant" > wrote in message
...
> Brand new to this NG and hobby.

> I realize newbies get hung up on numbers, and the feeling of "oh-oh" sets
> in when you've overshot a bit, but if like most other things it's only a
> target, with a bit either side not being super critical. Help us through
> this phase.

Hey All;

Thanks for the advice, you all have confirmed my suspicions; winemaking is a
forgiving art learned over time. The racking pull off just fine the SG was
down to 1.01 by the time we got around to it, and even the cruddy looking
liquid (I haven't learned the proper vocabulary yet) tasted good, the dog
was licking the floor where I missed the jug after pulling the siphon, and I
got a mouthful when it started.

Hopefully in a couple years I'll be able to contribute back for the
knowledge I'm gleaning from the group.

Mark

"pinky" > wrote in message
k...
> Bob
> You are totally right -- but the oxygen bit is a real need. It just so
> happens that there is enough around in normal circumstances.
> I have done exactly the same thing ( well very nearly). I have never
covered
> with just a muslin/cheese cloth but always with a"sealing"type lid or a
very
> tight lid with a fermentation lock. There is enough oxygen in the water
> added to "fruit" wines inherently and if you are punching down a fruit cap
> daily there is another source of oxygen.and in any case the header space
has
> a lot of it too!
> I have always thought that the main reason for covering with a "cloth" was
> to stop the fruit flies getting to my must and that the vigorous initial
> fermentation kept a substantial "blanket" of CO2 over the must anyway

I mix my ingredients and do all my testing etc in a 24 litre pail. It is
open to the air of course, and then I transfer it into a carboy that is only
filled up to the point where the shoulder of the bottle begins curving in so
it has enough head space to keep foam out of the airlock. My procedure must
be doing it enough as is. :-)
Bob<><
--

"Twinkle, twinkle, little bat,
how I wonder where you're at?
Up above the world so high,
like a tea-tray in the sky!"
-Lewis Carrol- "Alice in Wonderland"