Hi all,

I'm just interested in trying to get a consensus on whether most fruit
winemakers here do juice or macerated (i.e. inclusion of
skins/pulp/whole fruit) fermentations when making *white* wines from
non-grape fruits:

1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
*without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit
(i.e. juice fermented)?

2. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with*
a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e.
macerated)?

3. Do you do more of (1) than (2) or vice versa?

4. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on
wine type/style?

5. Do you believe you get more *flavour* extraction through use of
fermentation maceration?


Shame UseNet doesn't do polls :-)

Thanks for your responses - the more the better,

Ben

"Ben Rotter" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just interested in trying to get a consensus on whether most fruit
> winemakers here do juice or macerated (i.e. inclusion of
> skins/pulp/whole fruit) fermentations when making *white* wines from
> non-grape fruits:
>
> 1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
> *without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit
> (i.e. juice fermented)?

YES
>
> 2. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with*
> a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e.
> macerated)?

NO
>
> 3. Do you do more of (1) than (2) or vice versa?

1, definitely.
>
> 4. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on
> wine type/style?

I have only tried three types of shredded fruits, raspberries (horrid
failure), strawberries (ditto) and blueberries (endless successes!)
>
> 5. Do you believe you get more *flavour* extraction through use of
> fermentation maceration?

For the blueberry, which is not a white but is a fruit, I do leave the
berries in for months. It is superb. Time for some now! LOL!!
Bob<><
>
> Shame UseNet doesn't do polls :-)
>
> Thanks for your responses - the more the better,
>
> Ben

1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
*without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit
(i.e. juice fermented)?

If you're counting frozen juice concentrate then yes. If you're not
including frozen juice concentrate, then only 1 (Watermelon).

2. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with*
a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e.
macerated)?

Yes, I almost always ferment on the fruit.


3. Do you do more of (1) than (2) or vice versa?

I do about the same of both. But if you are strictly talking about just
fermenting on juice from fruit or fermenting on juice w/fruit, then I almost
always ferment on the fruit.


4. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on
wine type/style?

When you pull the nylon bag (w/the fruit) out of the jug when fermentation
is over, and look at how mushy and white (bleached out) it is; I think I get
more flavor and color from fermenting with the fruit. The only exception
was watermelon and that was because it was so mushy to begin with, I got the
juice first and fermented with juice only.

5. Do you believe you get more *flavor* extraction through use of
fermentation maceration?

Yes, I do, but I also think it helps to freeze the fruit before you make
wine out of it. I've been very happy with my strawberry, rhubarb, pumpkin,
cherry, grapefruit, pepper, oregano, zucchini, blackberry, & plum.



"Ben Rotter" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just interested in trying to get a consensus on whether most fruit
> winemakers here do juice or macerated (i.e. inclusion of
> skins/pulp/whole fruit) fermentations when making *white* wines from
> non-grape fruits:
>
> 1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
> *without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit
> (i.e. juice fermented)?
>
> 2. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with*
> a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e.
> macerated)?
>
> 3. Do you do more of (1) than (2) or vice versa?
>
> 4. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on
> wine type/style?
>
> 5. Do you believe you get more *flavour* extraction through use of
> fermentation maceration?
>
>
> Shame UseNet doesn't do polls :-)
>
> Thanks for your responses - the more the better,
>
> Ben

This may not be the sort of information you're looking for, but my
decision to ferment juice or to ferment on the pulp/skin has been
driven by my (lack of) equipment. I don't have a press, or any other
good way to extract juice from fresh fruit, so I ferment on the pulp.

On the other hand, I was able to buy wine grapes from a local homebrew
shop this season and the price included the use of their equipment.
Since I could take delivery of the grapes, crush and press them on the
premises, and take home the fresh juice, I selected a white and
fermented the juice.

I've often wondered, though, about the value of fermenting non-grape
fruit on the pulp. In grape wine, I think it's done to extract color
and tannin. Is tannin in all fruit skin? I know that some fruit has
colored juice, and that means it's not always necessary to extract
color from the skin. So Ben, I'm curious about your answers to your own
questions (and I'm sure I'm not the only one!).

Erroll

(Ben Rotter) wrote in message . com>...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just interested in trying to get a consensus on whether most fruit
> winemakers here do juice or macerated (i.e. inclusion of
> skins/pulp/whole fruit) fermentations when making *white* wines from
> non-grape fruits:
>
> 1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
> *without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit
> (i.e. juice fermented)?

yes, although it's not much more... a pyment, two cysers, a tea, a
kiwi strawberry... ummm... don't remember.


> 2. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with*
> a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e.
> macerated)?

a little shy still (which could be a good children's book, right?) =)

raspberry melomel, peach melomel, plum melomel.

the raspberry ended up pretty bitter, only starting to clear up in taste
after about three months, but that's because of those damn seeds. otherwise,
it tasted amazing.

> 3. Do you do more of (1) than (2) or vice versa?

i will do as few non-fruit-pulp ferments as possible. the only times
i will use fruit juice to the exclusion of pulp is for the cysers (i don't
have a cheap source of fresh apples) or possibly another pyment (i'm lazy
and don't want to look for quality fresh grapes). this is of course
not counting the beer, or potato or coffee wines. i want to make a malt
beverage, maybe try cloning spark's or one of the smirnoff's.


> 4. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on
> wine type/style?

the ferments are way better. i don't get violent fermentation with the
fruit juice, but i always do with pulp.


> 5. Do you believe you get more *flavour* extraction through use of
> fermentation maceration?

yes. most of the time i'll pull out the pulp after a week or two of
primary fermentation, and the pulp will have visibly/noticeably lost
color and flavor, which means it ended up in the wine. =)

i think the smells are better (which is VERY important to me).
i have been interested in secondary fermentation with fruit juice, etc
though.


Saul

(Ben Rotter) wrote in message . com>...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm just interested in trying to get a consensus on whether most fruit
> winemakers here do juice or macerated (i.e. inclusion of
> skins/pulp/whole fruit) fermentations when making *white* wines from
> non-grape fruits:

Regardles of the fruit, I almost always do a cold soak over a couple
of days with pectic enzyme and sulphite. I usually also first freeze
the fruit.
I then choose to ferment on pulp or not depending on if I think there
is any benefit.

>
> 1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
> *without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit
> (i.e. juice fermented)?

Rhubarb, raspberry, gooseberry, red currant I've done this way


>
> 2. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with*
> a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e.
> macerated)?

Plum, elderberry, black currant, apple, rose hip I've done this way

>
> 3. Do you do more of (1) than (2) or vice versa?
>

I find that I am more and more often fermenting on the pulp. By the
way,
I don't use a straining bag during fermentation, but do it the old
fashioned way with a cap and all. great fun by the way.


> 4. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on
> wine type/style?

I usually try to judge from the type of fruit

>
> 5. Do you believe you get more *flavour* extraction through use of
> fermentation maceration?
>

Yes, that is my argument.

>
> Shame UseNet doesn't do polls :-)
>
> Thanks for your responses - the more the better,
>
> Ben

In message >, Ben Rotter
> writes
>1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
>*without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e.
>juice fermented)?
>

No; grand total of 0.

>2. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with* a
>fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e. macerated)?

Yes, definitely. 25 gallons so far this year, about 20 last year.

>
>4. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on
>wine type/style?

It just suits the style of wine I enjoy (red, lots of body, and plummy),
and the fruit I usually have available - in the most part, cultivated
and wild plums, damsons and sloes. I would probably try other styles
more often (though maybe not make as great a quantity) if I didn't go
overboard so heavily on the plums and sloes.

>
>5. Do you believe you get more *flavour* extraction through use of
>fermentation maceration?

Yes.

cheers,
robin
--
www.newforestartgallery.co.uk
www.badminston.demon.co.uk www.robinsomes.co.uk
www.amazonian-fish.co.uk www.pisces-conservation.com
www.irchouse.demon.co.uk www.blackwell-science.com/southwood
Trust me, I'm a webmaster...

Ben, good questions.

> 1. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines
> *without* a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit
> (i.e. juice fermented)?

Dozens and dozens.

> 2. Have you made more than, say, 5 white non-grape fruit wines *with*
> a fermentation maceration on the skins/pulp/whole fruit (i.e.
> macerated)?

Dozens and dozens.

> 3. Do you do more of (1) than (2) or vice versa?

I have made far more by (2) than (1), but this has changed over the
past three years and in time will probably tip the scales the other
way. There are two reasons for this. First, it is easier to find
fruit juices, concentrates and nectares now than ever before.
Secondly, the steam extractor really is a wonderful invention,
allowing heat extraction without imparting a "stewed" taste or aroma
that cooking tends to impart. Two other benefits are (a) with steam
extraction, I seem to get more juice from the fruit than from pressing
after fermenting on the fruit, and (b) it is far, far easier to know
exactly how much natural sugar is in the unchaptized must than when
fermenting on the fruit.

> 4. Do you prefer one to the other - if so, why? Or does it depend on
> wine type/style?

Each has its place. I have not steam extracted peach yet, for
example, because in a test I found that their aroma is simply too
fragile, but strawberry's aroma survives very well after being
steamed.

> 5. Do you believe you get more *flavour* extraction through use of
> fermentation maceration?

My inner bias says yes, but my mind is open. As I said, steam
extraction of juice has opened my eyes to new possibilities. My
problem is that I have not really experimented that much with it
because my wine cellar is quite full. Some day I will comment on what
has worked so far, but not today.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Jack Keller wrote "....Secondly, the steam extractor really is a wonderful
invention,
> allowing heat extraction without imparting a "stewed" taste or aroma
> that cooking tends to impart. Two other benefits are (a) with steam
> extraction, I seem to get more juice from the fruit than from pressing
> after fermenting on the fruit, and (b) it is far, far easier to know
> exactly how much natural sugar is in the unchaptized must than when
> fermenting on the fruit."

Jack - Are you using steam extraction as a home winemaker? If so, what is
your technique? Thanks.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

This may not be the sort of information you're looking for, but my
decision to ferment juice or to ferment on the pulp/skin has been
driven by my (lack of) equipment. I don't have a press, or any other
good way to extract juice from fresh fruit, so I ferment on the pulp.

On the other hand, I was able to buy wine grapes from a local homebrew
shop this season and the price included the use of their equipment.
Since I could take delivery of the grapes, crush and press them on the
premises, and take home the fresh juice, I selected a white and
fermented the juice.

I've often wondered, though, about the value of fermenting non-grape
fruit on the pulp. In grape wine, I think it's done to extract color
and tannin. Is tannin in all fruit skin? I know that some fruit has
colored juice, and that means it's not always necessary to extract
color from the skin. So Ben, I'm curious about your answers to your own
questions (and I'm sure I'm not the only one!).

Erroll