I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
on the subject. Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
for each country wine or classic grape wine?

I'm just interested in general. My specific concern is (as per my
reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

Any help gratefully received as ever...

In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> on the subject. Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> I'm just interested in general. My specific concern is (as per my
> reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> Any help gratefully received as ever...

Pick for maturity, not acidity.
There are no minimums or maximums for acidity, as there are for alcohol,
volatile acidity, and SO2. Even alcohol only enters into regulation when
you are trying to produce a wine with an "appellation contrôllée" type
designation, otherwise acidity levels come under the heading of style.
Robert Parker likes high alcohol, low acid wines for sipping (they also
show better in competition, where they are served without food). Wines
that accompany food (the main course) will usually have around .6 to
..7g/100ml calculated as tartaric.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm

A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and 3.4 for a
fruit wine with sugar added.


On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
> I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> Any help gratefully received as ever...

On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> > Any help gratefully received as ever...

Mm thanks for that. I followed the info in Kellers page which I think
(though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. I
adjusted to that higher end. I guess what I am going to have to do is
bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. I just don't trust my
ability to repeatedly taste the same wine at different acidities over
and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
also.

Kind regards, Jim

Jim,

Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
the total amount. You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
(acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.


On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:
> On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> > > Any help gratefully received as ever...
>
> Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I think
> (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do is
> bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust my
> ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities over
> and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.
>
> I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> also.
>
> Kind regards, Jim

On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.
>
> On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
>
> > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...
>
> > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I think
> > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do is
> > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust my
> > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities over
> > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.
>
> > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> > also.
>
> > Kind regards, Jim

I'm not sure how close it is. It is noticeably too sour. Adjusting
with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
It's a minefield. I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front
now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
have seen.

Thanks for the advice again!

Jim

So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?

On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:
> On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Jim,
>
> > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.
>
> > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
>
> > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...
>
> > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I think
> > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do is
> > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust my
> > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities over
> > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.
>
> > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> > > also.
>
> > > Kind regards, Jim
>
> I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front
> now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> have seen.
>
> Thanks for the advice again!
>
> Jim

On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> > Any help gratefully received as ever...

By the way, I presume that pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
fruit wine with no sugar added too?

Cheers, Jim

In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > fruit wine with sugar added.
> >
> > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
> >
> > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
> >
> > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
> >
> > > Any help gratefully received as ever...
>
> By the way, I presume that pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
> fruit wine with no sugar added too?
>
> Cheers, Jim

3.4 to 3.7 is my comfort zone for a dry wine table wines but taste your
way to your results. For sippin' wines, you may want the pH a little
higher (maybe to 4.0). After 4.0, wines lack fruit, and taste flat (to
my taste). Wines are like steaks. Nobody can tell you how you like it.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

On Feb 2, 1:48*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *jim c > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...
>
> > By the way, I presume that *pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
> > fruit wine with no sugar added too?
>
> > Cheers, Jim
>
> 3.4 to 3.7 is my comfort zone for a dry wine table wines but taste your
> way to your results. For sippin' wines, you may want the pH a little
> higher (maybe to 4.0). After 4.0, wines lack fruit, and taste flat (to
> my taste). Wines are like steaks. Nobody can tell you how you like it.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines

No I agree - if they did I'd have to roll my eyes. I like my wines
dry, fairly tannic and hearty usually. Having guide figures is useful
before taking the plunge. I am really hoping that after tasting again
and pH testing I decide I can live with the levels - messing it around
might be more of a nuisance and let down than having it slightly sour,
but I will step into the dark shortly and see what I can see. At
least the guide figures I have now can acts as a candle and are
corroborated elsewhere online.

Jim

In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> On Feb 2, 1:48*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *jim c > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > fruit wine with sugar added.
> >
> > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
> >
> > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > which
> > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > levels
> > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?
> >
> > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
> >
> > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...
> >
> > > By the way, I presume that *pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
> > > fruit wine with no sugar added too?
> >
> > > Cheers, Jim
> >
> > 3.4 to 3.7 is my comfort zone for a dry wine table wines but taste your
> > way to your results. For sippin' wines, you may want the pH a little
> > higher (maybe to 4.0). After 4.0, wines lack fruit, and taste flat (to
> > my taste). Wines are like steaks. Nobody can tell you how you like it.
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
>
> No I agree - if they did I'd have to roll my eyes. I like my wines
> dry, fairly tannic and hearty usually. Having guide figures is useful
> before taking the plunge. I am really hoping that after tasting again
> and pH testing I decide I can live with the levels - messing it around
> might be more of a nuisance and let down than having it slightly sour,
> but I will step into the dark shortly and see what I can see. At
> least the guide figures I have now can acts as a candle and are
> corroborated elsewhere online.
>
> Jim

Sorry to be repetitious, but remember, sourness is a function of pH, and
not directly correlated to total acidity.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines