On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:44:52 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> wrote:

Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive
with the amount of wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons
will be more in the balll park. that is with putting 1/2 up
to age for an extended time.
>
>It depends on the variety and a LOT of other variables but I think if you
>use the assumption that it takes about 15 pounds of grapes to make a gallon
>of wine (could be anywhere from 12 to 15) and that a good vine after about
>5 years can provide about 10 - 12 pounds of fruit, you will get a "ball
>park" figure. Of course, you may get more than 10 pounds per vine but
>these are "Ball park" numbers. So - to get about 200 gallons on wine think
>200 gallons will require about - 200 gallons X 15 pounds per gallon = 3000
>pounds of grapes. 3000 pounds / 10 pounds per vine = 300 vines.
>This is based on the assumption that you have about 4 - 6 feet between vines
>and about 7 - 10 feet between rows.
>
>If you have the ground, I would recommend choosing the larger number between
>vines and rows. If you have excessive vigor, you can control it by
>allowing each vine more room and having a larger number of canes per vine.
>Also think about a divided canopy such as a Lyre, Scott Henry or Geneva
>Double Curtain trellising system. I think that in East Texas you WILL have
>excessive vigor.
>
>Your results may vary.
>
>
>>
>>
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kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount of
wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."

Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines if
you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest. Also,
you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you may
still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part of
your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming you
know.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Something not mentioned so far, and maybe you already know, but you are
located dead center in hottest part of the Perices Disease zone. This fact
will dramaticly limit your variatal selection. All of the French vinifira
are out. No exceptions I fear. Less than ten French American hybrids are
resistant to PD. Your choices are pretty much only true American natives
and Muscadines.

A short but pretty complete list: Norton (Cynthiana), Black Spanish
(Lenor), Blanc DeBois, Hermabot(sps?), Champenell(sp?), La Rouge, SV 12-375,
SV12-259, SV12-372, and any Muscadine on the planet.

Fred
Athens, Texas
Ask me why I know :-(

"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
>
> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount
of
> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
>
> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines
if
> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
Also,
> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you may
> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part
of
> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
> leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming you
> know.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>

Fred Williams wrote "Something not mentioned so far, and maybe you already
know, but you are
located dead center in hottest part of the Perices Disease zone. This fact
will dramaticly limit your variatal selection.

Kenny, Fred and others that may be looking for a great wine grape that's not
well known. Our wine club, The Greater Kansas City Cellarmasters, puts on
an amateur wine contest every November. Last year we had an entry of
Delicatessen wine from a winemaker in the St. Louis area. I had the
PLEASURE of tasting this red wine. It was outstanding...loaded with fruit.
Everyone loved it and I thought it should have won Best Of Show (it won it's
category). I mention this since Kenny lives in Texas. Delicatessen is a
Munson Hybrid grape. I'm not sure if Delicatessen is bothered by Perices
Disease but there is a repository of Munson Hybrids at Grayson County
College in Denison, Texas. Contact Dr. Roy Renfro for information about how
to grow these grapes in Texas at . Two of our wineclub
members have planted rows of Delicatessen so we will have access to this
grape in the Kansas City area. If more information, such as where to
acquire vines, is of interest send me an email and I'll put you in contact
with one of our growers.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

In article >,
says...
> Something not mentioned so far, and maybe you already know, but you are
> located dead center in hottest part of the Perices Disease zone.

Do you perhaps mean Pierce's Disease?

In article >, "William Frazier" > wrote:
> And, you may end up selling part of
>your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc.

Note carefully: "selling part of your harvest" means selling the *grapes*.
If you're a home winemaker, selling the *wine* is against the law.

My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My hobby
vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close spacing, 4 x 5,
and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals of wine!
Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively, the wine
is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident cellar
problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this year and am
really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had last year. It was
a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't really
make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes like
its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant some
extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.
"William Frazier" > wrote in message
...
>
> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount
of
> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
>
> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines
if
> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
Also,
> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you may
> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part
of
> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
> leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming you
> know.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas
>
>

Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:

> My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
> importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My hobby
> vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close spacing, 4 x
> 5, and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals of
> wine! Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively,
> the wine is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident
> cellar problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this
> year and am really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had last
> year. It was
> a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't
> really
> make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes like
> its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant
> some extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.

Darwin, where do you live? 2003 in the Mid Atlantic was a Horrible year for
grapes. 4 x 5 is fairly close spacing. Do you use divided canopy
trellising? I switched from VSP to the Lyre and prune to one counting bud
spurs. The vines are loving it.




> "William Frazier" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
>> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount
> of
>> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
>> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
>>
>> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
>> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines
> if
>> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
>> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
> Also,
>> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you
>> may
>> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part
> of
>> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
>> leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
>> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming
>> you know.
>>
>> Bill Frazier
>> Olathe, Kansas
>>
>>

I am in nampa, Idaho, at about 2600' elevation. Its a terrific place to grow
grapes in some respects, less so in others. After 3 crops and 6 yrs of
growing (took 2 years to get planted) I have not yet sprayed, with
anything, and have had no molds, mildews fungus etc, and no insect damage
either except maybe some wasps. We have a very dry climate, and the daytime
temperature will get above 95 degrees in mid June. Night time temperatures
are generally under 70, and by the time the grapes are ripening, in the
50's. Our climate is quite similar to the Prosser Washington area, which is
becoming a very popular wine growing area, with something like 300 new
vinyards. We use drip irrigation, have a very fertile soil, use own rooted
plants, and plant vigor is pretty high.
The 4x5 spacing came about because I wanted to have lots of varieties and
also I spent some time in the Napa Valley looking at vineyards and saw some
new ones going in at even closer spacing (4x4). It worked out that in my 50'
x 150' area I could do 10 rows of 33 plants. So I have 1 of chardonnay, 2 of
cab Sauv, 1.5 of cab franc, 1.5 of merlot, 2 of pinot noir, 1 of pinot gris,
1 of gervurtz.

About the only problem has been frost damage, mostly in the fall, but some
in the spring as well. The hardest hit has been Cab sauv which mostly got
froze to the ground with a 13 degree night November 1, 2002. They are the
latest, and they had not gone completely dormant. Only a few of the 66
plants actually died, and i should have about 75% of a crop this year. This
year I will install an overhead sprinkling system governed by a thermostat
which will turn it on on cold nights during the critical periods when
dormancy is not complete and in the spring after bud break.
I saw some of the lyre systems in the Napa valley, and it does seem that the
new vinyards are going either close spacing or lyre. (Just my amateur
observation).
How do you prune to " one counting bud
spurs"? I don't know all the lingo of the trade yet!



"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
...
> Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
>
> > My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
> > importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My hobby
> > vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close spacing, 4
x
> > 5, and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals
of
> > wine! Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively,
> > the wine is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident
> > cellar problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this
> > year and am really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had
last
> > year. It was
> > a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't
> > really
> > make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes
like
> > its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant
> > some extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.
>
> Darwin, where do you live? 2003 in the Mid Atlantic was a Horrible year
for
> grapes. 4 x 5 is fairly close spacing. Do you use divided canopy
> trellising? I switched from VSP to the Lyre and prune to one counting bud
> spurs. The vines are loving it.
>
>
>
>
> > "William Frazier" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out
how
> >> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the
amount
> > of
> >> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll
park.
> >> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
> >>
> >> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
> >> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred
vines
> > if
> >> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit
the
> >> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
> > Also,
> >> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you
> >> may
> >> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling
part
> > of
> >> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
> >> leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
> >> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming
> >> you know.
> >>
> >> Bill Frazier
> >> Olathe, Kansas
> >>
> >>
>

Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:

> I am in nampa, Idaho, at about 2600' elevation. Its a terrific place to
> grow grapes in some respects, less so in others. After 3 crops and 6 yrs
> of
> growing (took 2 years to get planted) I have not yet sprayed, with
> anything, and have had no molds, mildews fungus etc, and no insect damage
> either except maybe some wasps. We have a very dry climate, and the
> daytime temperature will get above 95 degrees in mid June. Night time
> temperatures are generally under 70, and by the time the grapes are
> ripening, in the 50's. Our climate is quite similar to the Prosser
> Washington area, which is becoming a very popular wine growing area, with
> something like 300 new vinyards. We use drip irrigation, have a very
> fertile soil, use own rooted plants, and plant vigor is pretty high.
> The 4x5 spacing came about because I wanted to have lots of varieties and
> also I spent some time in the Napa Valley looking at vineyards and saw
> some new ones going in at even closer spacing (4x4). It worked out that in
> my 50' x 150' area I could do 10 rows of 33 plants. So I have 1 of
> chardonnay, 2 of cab Sauv, 1.5 of cab franc, 1.5 of merlot, 2 of pinot
> noir, 1 of pinot gris, 1 of gervurtz.
>
> About the only problem has been frost damage, mostly in the fall, but some
> in the spring as well. The hardest hit has been Cab sauv which mostly got
> froze to the ground with a 13 degree night November 1, 2002. They are the
> latest, and they had not gone completely dormant. Only a few of the 66
> plants actually died, and i should have about 75% of a crop this year.
> This year I will install an overhead sprinkling system governed by a
> thermostat which will turn it on on cold nights during the critical
> periods when dormancy is not complete and in the spring after bud break.
> I saw some of the lyre systems in the Napa valley, and it does seem that
> the
> new vinyards are going either close spacing or lyre. (Just my amateur
> observation).
> How do you prune to " one counting bud
> spurs"? I don't know all the lingo of the trade yet!

One counting bud is the first bud on a cane after the basal bud. It is
generally the first fruiting bud since the basal bud is usually not fruit
producing.


>
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
>>
>> > My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
>> > importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My
>> > hobby vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close
>> > spacing, 4
> x
>> > 5, and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals
> of
>> > wine! Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively,
>> > the wine is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident
>> > cellar problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this
>> > year and am really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had
> last
>> > year. It was
>> > a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't
>> > really
>> > make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes
> like
>> > its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant
>> > some extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.
>>
>> Darwin, where do you live? 2003 in the Mid Atlantic was a Horrible year
> for
>> grapes. 4 x 5 is fairly close spacing. Do you use divided canopy
>> trellising? I switched from VSP to the Lyre and prune to one counting
>> bud
>> spurs. The vines are loving it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "William Frazier" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out
> how
>> >> much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the
> amount
>> > of
>> >> wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll
> park.
>> >> that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
>> >>
>> >> Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good
>> >> ballpark
>> >> figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred
> vines
>> > if
>> >> you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit
> the
>> >> clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
>> > Also,
>> >> you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you
>> >> may
>> >> still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling
> part
>> > of
>> >> your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I
>> >> would leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the
>> >> tractor
>> >> through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming
>> >> you know.
>> >>
>> >> Bill Frazier
>> >> Olathe, Kansas
>> >>
>> >>
>>

Darwin,

Last year was a tough year for getting grapes ripe. Along with
everyone else I learned alot. Here is what I am doing now after the
last 2 years. Like yourself I'm ADDING vines to my rows so instead of
8 ft spacings it's now 4 ft in-row spacing. I'm trying to convert from
a Geneva Double curtain to a VSP with only 1 fruiting wire. Here's
why. The vines I grow, chambourcin, have an upright growing pattern
and DO NOT match very well to a high cordon system especially the GDC
with 8 ft between POST spacing. The shoots were so hard to comb down I
needed a machette to get through. I've learned that before you pick a
trellis system you NEED to understand the growing pattern of the vines
your trying to grow. I also am a big believer now that even though the
GDC gives plenty of light and airflow it's a tougher trellis system to
manage with an upright growing vine. So I think what you have as far
as vine spacing is actually not bad BUT IMHO you need to have only 1
fruiting wire to facilitate airflow and light interception for quality
fruit and buds. The closer the spacings the more potential crop you
will have because of the extra vines but you can't over crop or
vegetate the vines. 4X5 spacing is fine, they use close spacings in
europe. The reason for such big between row spacings talked about so
often is for the machinery needed to tend to the vines NOT the growing
needs of the vines.Actually , the smaller spacings will naturally
inhibit the vines because of the competition between them. Like you
said , thinning is a way to increase quality BUT if you prune heavily
to 2 canes laid in opposite direction with the correct # of buds for
the variety, which would be 1/2 the recommended for 8ft in-row
spacings since now your using 4ft, you'll have a canopy easily
penetrated by air, light and fungicides with the fruit happy as a pig
in spit. Just my 2 cents.

Bob



Darwin Vander Stelt" > wrote in message >...
> My experience with the 2003 harvest has really brought home to me the
> importance of limiting the production if you want quality wine. My hobby
> vinyard had about 250 vines producing last year, I use close spacing, 4 x 5,
> and I fed the birds at least half the grapes. I still made 120 gals of wine!
> Compared to the year before when I thinned much more agressively, the wine
> is tasteless and watery. There are no off flavors, no evident cellar
> problems, just plain old watery wine. I bought bird netting this year and am
> really cutting the crop back to maybe half of what we had last year. It was
> a lesson I'll never forget! You can read it in a book but it doesn't really
> make an impact like tasting a barrel of cab franc/merlot that tastes like
> its maybe 1/3 chardonnay with some water added! So my advice is plant some
> extra, buy bird netting, and severely limit the yields.
> "William Frazier" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > kenny wrote "Thanks for the information I will set down and work out how
> > much I think I will really need I was a little aggressive with the amount
> of
> > wine I need in a year probably 50 gallons will be more in the balll park.
> > that is with putting 1/2 up to age for an extended time."
> >
> > Kenny - The old suggestion of 1 gallon wine per vine is a good ballpark
> > figure. But don't let that stop you from planting several hundred vines
> if
> > you have the room and the interest. With lots of vines you can limit the
> > clusters of grapes per vine and increase the quality of your harvest.
> Also,
> > you will have bad weather some years and if you have lots of vines you may
> > still have enough grapes for your wine. And, you may end up selling part
> of
> > your harvest to offset the cost of chemicals, fertilizer, etc. I would
> > leave 10 feet between rows...makes it much easier to drive the tractor
> > through the vineyard to spray fungicide and insecticide. This farming you
> > know.
> >
> > Bill Frazier
> > Olathe, Kansas
> >
> >

bob wrote:
> Darwin,
>
> Last year was a tough year for getting grapes ripe. Along with
> everyone else I learned alot. Here is what I am doing now after the
> last 2 years. Like yourself I'm ADDING vines to my rows so instead of
> 8 ft spacings it's now 4 ft in-row spacing. I'm trying to convert from
> a Geneva Double curtain to a VSP with only 1 fruiting wire. Here's
> why. The vines I grow, chambourcin, have an upright growing pattern
> and DO NOT match very well to a high cordon system especially the GDC
> with 8 ft between POST spacing. The shoots were so hard to comb down I
> needed a machette to get through. I've learned that before you pick a
> trellis system you NEED to understand the growing pattern of the vines
> your trying to grow. I also am a big believer now that even though the
> GDC gives plenty of light and airflow it's a tougher trellis system to
> manage with an upright growing vine. So I think what you have as far
> as vine spacing is actually not bad BUT IMHO you need to have only 1
> fruiting wire to facilitate airflow and light interception for quality
> fruit and buds. The closer the spacings the more potential crop you
> will have because of the extra vines but you can't over crop or
> vegetate the vines. 4X5 spacing is fine, they use close spacings in
> europe. The reason for such big between row spacings talked about so
> often is for the machinery needed to tend to the vines NOT the growing
> needs of the vines.Actually , the smaller spacings will naturally
> inhibit the vines because of the competition between them. Like you
> said , thinning is a way to increase quality BUT if you prune heavily
> to 2 canes laid in opposite direction with the correct # of buds for
> the variety, which would be 1/2 the recommended for 8ft in-row
> spacings since now your using 4ft, you'll have a canopy easily
> penetrated by air, light and fungicides with the fruit happy as a pig
> in spit. Just my 2 cents.
>
> Bob
Bob,

I agree with just about all you said, and you said it well. But I think
one needs to take into account the site's growing vigor too.

I too grow some Chambourcin, but on a very fertile site, with high
summer rainfall and somewhat less than full sun exposure. Because of the
very adequate moisture, the competitive effect of close spacing doesn't
seem to work and the vines want to grow leggy, with long internodes. My
solution has been to train them to a high (6") single wire curtain. A
moveable catchwire allows me to force the normally upward growing shoots
downward, with a marked decrease in vigor. This also keeps the fruiting
zone above the bulk of the foliage & in better sun after I strip the
basal leaves at veraison. Being high up also keeps the fruiting buds out
of ground-hugging frosts, as my site slopes & there's good air drainage.

I think a lot of people have read "Sunlight into Wine", by Smart &
Robinson, and tried to apply their techniques. I did. The trouble is,
what works well for Vinifera in New Zealand doesn't seem to work for FA
hybrids in the eastern US. I'd be happy to hear from anybody who had
similar/different experiences.
--


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA

Mike,

Can't argue with what you said. I live 40 miles north of NYC so I know
exactly how much rain you recieved last year and now this year. It's
interesting that combing them down decreases vigor. I guess it has to
do with apical dominance. Do you get alot of suckers near the ground
every year??? If you "sucker" them maybe you can let them grow until
they get in the way of the downward shoots. Also I assume you have
grass in the row middles and iff your vines are THAT vigourous maybe
you should try growing grass UNDER the vines also. What do you do for
excess water??? My site is VERY sandy and the vigor while still strong
is average I would say. BTW, what was the brix on your Chambourcin
last year?? I could only get 16 out of mine.

Bob

MikeMTM > wrote in message ws.com>...
> bob wrote:
> > Darwin,
> >
> > Last year was a tough year for getting grapes ripe. Along with
> > everyone else I learned alot. Here is what I am doing now after the
> > last 2 years. Like yourself I'm ADDING vines to my rows so instead of
> > 8 ft spacings it's now 4 ft in-row spacing. I'm trying to convert from
> > a Geneva Double curtain to a VSP with only 1 fruiting wire. Here's
> > why. The vines I grow, chambourcin, have an upright growing pattern
> > and DO NOT match very well to a high cordon system especially the GDC
> > with 8 ft between POST spacing. The shoots were so hard to comb down I
> > needed a machette to get through. I've learned that before you pick a
> > trellis system you NEED to understand the growing pattern of the vines
> > your trying to grow. I also am a big believer now that even though the
> > GDC gives plenty of light and airflow it's a tougher trellis system to
> > manage with an upright growing vine. So I think what you have as far
> > as vine spacing is actually not bad BUT IMHO you need to have only 1
> > fruiting wire to facilitate airflow and light interception for quality
> > fruit and buds. The closer the spacings the more potential crop you
> > will have because of the extra vines but you can't over crop or
> > vegetate the vines. 4X5 spacing is fine, they use close spacings in
> > europe. The reason for such big between row spacings talked about so
> > often is for the machinery needed to tend to the vines NOT the growing
> > needs of the vines.Actually , the smaller spacings will naturally
> > inhibit the vines because of the competition between them. Like you
> > said , thinning is a way to increase quality BUT if you prune heavily
> > to 2 canes laid in opposite direction with the correct # of buds for
> > the variety, which would be 1/2 the recommended for 8ft in-row
> > spacings since now your using 4ft, you'll have a canopy easily
> > penetrated by air, light and fungicides with the fruit happy as a pig
> > in spit. Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > Bob
> Bob,
>
> I agree with just about all you said, and you said it well. But I think
> one needs to take into account the site's growing vigor too.
>
> I too grow some Chambourcin, but on a very fertile site, with high
> summer rainfall and somewhat less than full sun exposure. Because of the
> very adequate moisture, the competitive effect of close spacing doesn't
> seem to work and the vines want to grow leggy, with long internodes. My
> solution has been to train them to a high (6") single wire curtain. A
> moveable catchwire allows me to force the normally upward growing shoots
> downward, with a marked decrease in vigor. This also keeps the fruiting
> zone above the bulk of the foliage & in better sun after I strip the
> basal leaves at veraison. Being high up also keeps the fruiting buds out
> of ground-hugging frosts, as my site slopes & there's good air drainage.
>
> I think a lot of people have read "Sunlight into Wine", by Smart &
> Robinson, and tried to apply their techniques. I did. The trouble is,
> what works well for Vinifera in New Zealand doesn't seem to work for FA
> hybrids in the eastern US. I'd be happy to hear from anybody who had
> similar/different experiences.

bob wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Can't argue with what you said. I live 40 miles north of NYC so I know
> exactly how much rain you recieved last year and now this year. It's
> interesting that combing them down decreases vigor. I guess it has to
> do with apical dominance. Do you get alot of suckers near the ground
> every year??? If you "sucker" them maybe you can let them grow until
> they get in the way of the downward shoots. Also I assume you have
> grass in the row middles and iff your vines are THAT vigourous maybe
> you should try growing grass UNDER the vines also. What do you do for
> excess water??? My site is VERY sandy and the vigor while still strong
> is average I would say. BTW, what was the brix on your Chambourcin
> last year?? I could only get 16 out of mine.
>
> Bob
Bob,

Funny, I live 40 mi. dead west of NYC.

Apical vigor is exactly the issue with forcing the canes downward. It's
amazing how a shoot slows down once its redirected. Linear growth
becomes more manageable, but the axial buds at the high point, usually
on the bend, pop and try to become leaders. They're easily dealt with by
rubbing off. Later in the season the game switches to lateral pinching,
but that's a good practice for all systems I think.

I never really tried using suckers to devigorate a vine, but I've
thought about it. I'm working out the other parameters of my vines
still. Soon, probably. Do you know anything about the technique?

Yes, I've got lawn grass in the aisles, kept nice & neat because it's
very visible from the house. Directly under the vines there's an 18" or
24" strip of landscape fabric with crushed stone atop. This makes mowing
a lot easier, but additional grass, especially unmowed, would probably
be better from a vigor standpoint.

Because of the slope, almost all rows have excellent surface drainage,
but subsurface moisture is pretty high, as my place has quite a few
small springs & streams. Something I just have to live with. One block
of vines is actually on top of an old vegetable garden, so you can
imagine the fertility.

Last year my Chambourcin came in at 16 Brix too, on Oct 10. A few
bunches left to hang made it to 20 Brix by Nov 2, but they didn't look
too good. On the whole, the crop was a disaster. Your experiences?