I'm on the second racking of a "Selection International"
French Cabernet kit, and am wondering if I'm doing
anything wrong, or if I should just be patient. I was
shooting for a really astringent mouthfeel, so I added
8 ounces of oak (4 oz. French medium toast and 4 oz. of
French medium+ toast) at the first racking to try to get
the tannin levels up. My local home winemaking shop hinted
that I was on the right track to increase astringency, but
recommended an oak barrel for a truly astringent flavor.

I have 8 more ounces of oak cubes that I have not used yet
that I -could- add if it would help matters, but I'm thinking
about buying some wine tannin and adding just a tad to see
what happens.

The kit just doesn't taste "dry" to my palate. I would like
the wine almost dry enough to make your mouth pucker at each
sip! I toured Bordeaux and tried many French Cabs and none
of them taste as sweet as this batch of wine. Will ageing
over oak cubes provide the astringency I'm looking for, or
should I go ahead and add some wine tannin?

Am I confusing dryness with astringency? The SG is right on
target, so I'm assuming the kit went off without a hitch
other than it's not as dry-tasting as I want. What say the
experts?

Thanks, -Web Williams in Myrtle Beach, SC

Web Williams wrote "I'm on the second racking of a "Selection International"
> French Cabernet kit...I was shooting for a really astringent..."

Hi Web - I don't make many kits. I did make C. Sauvignon out of a pail of
juice about a year ago. The wine doesn't have any astringency that you
expect from this grape...it will make some nice wine coolers this summer but
that's about it. I don't think you can add something to your wine to
provide that huge mouth puckering quality that some C. Sauvignon has. It
comes from the grape and I'm sure some C. Sauvignon fruit has more of this
quality than others. That said I suggest you contact Presque Isle and
discuss this with them. They sell several products that may provide the
astringent mouth feel you're looking for.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas

Web Williams > wrote in message .com>...
> I'm on the second racking of a "Selection International"
> French Cabernet kit, and am wondering if I'm doing
> anything wrong, or if I should just be patient.

In my book, adding 8 ounces of oak is kind of wrong, but more to
follow.

>I was
> shooting for a really astringent mouthfeel, so I added
> 8 ounces of oak (4 oz. French medium toast and 4 oz. of
> French medium+ toast) at the first racking to try to get
> the tannin levels up.

Oak will add some tannin but will also add a lot of flavor from the
oak. Probably more than I care for, but it will lessen over time in
bottle.

> My local home winemaking shop hinted
> that I was on the right track to increase astringency, but
> recommended an oak barrel for a truly astringent flavor.

An oak barrel on top of the oak you've already added? Way to much for
me. Most of the top Bordeaux houses would shudder at even 100% new
oak, never mind double oaking like this. Of course some California
vintners can take oak to amazing levels.
>
> I have 8 more ounces of oak cubes that I have not used yet
> that I -could- add if it would help matters, but I'm thinking
> about buying some wine tannin and adding just a tad to see
> what happens.

I think the powdered grape tannin will give you want you want without
creating "liquid oak in a bottle". It should provide the astrigency
you're looking for without affecting the taste too much.

>
> The kit just doesn't taste "dry" to my palate. I would like
> the wine almost dry enough to make your mouth pucker at each
> sip! I toured Bordeaux and tried many French Cabs and none
> of them taste as sweet as this batch of wine. Will ageing
> over oak cubes provide the astringency I'm looking for, or
> should I go ahead and add some wine tannin?

Probably not. It does add some, but my (very) limited experience with
kits is very little tannin from the grapes makes it through to the
wine. Powdered tannin will probably give you what your looking for.

>
> Am I confusing dryness with astringency?

Well, yes and no. We generally use dryness to indicate the lack of
sugar in the wine, but tannin will cause a drying sensation in the
mouth. Even a wine with Residual Sugar can have the drying sensation
if the tannin are high and a completely dry wine can lack that drying
sensation if the tannin is lacking. The latter can appear almost sweet
(due to the alcohol) even if there is no residual sugar.

>The SG is right on
> target, so I'm assuming the kit went off without a hitch
> other than it's not as dry-tasting as I want. What say the
> experts?
>
> Thanks, -Web Williams in Myrtle Beach, SC

Andy

Make a TA measurement. Astringency is also a function of acidity which
should be in the 5-7 g/l range (maybe up to 8- 9 dependent on
preference). If OK I would go for some tannin addition. Oak storage
really doesn't to much with astringency. It adds complexity (extracts
flavours from the barrel and micro-oxygenate).
The astringency has more to to with the contact time between the must
and the pulp. Which I think most ready made and sold juices for wine
making may suffer.

All this is of course assuming that your wine has really fermented to
dryness. You mention that it is to sweet. Are you sure there are no
sugar remaining? It would mask astringency.

Web Williams > wrote in message .com>...
> I'm on the second racking of a "Selection International"
> French Cabernet kit, and am wondering if I'm doing
> anything wrong, or if I should just be patient. I was
> shooting for a really astringent mouthfeel, so I added
> 8 ounces of oak (4 oz. French medium toast and 4 oz. of
> French medium+ toast) at the first racking to try to get
> the tannin levels up. My local home winemaking shop hinted
> that I was on the right track to increase astringency, but
> recommended an oak barrel for a truly astringent flavor.
>
> I have 8 more ounces of oak cubes that I have not used yet
> that I -could- add if it would help matters, but I'm thinking
> about buying some wine tannin and adding just a tad to see
> what happens.
>
> The kit just doesn't taste "dry" to my palate. I would like
> the wine almost dry enough to make your mouth pucker at each
> sip! I toured Bordeaux and tried many French Cabs and none
> of them taste as sweet as this batch of wine. Will ageing
> over oak cubes provide the astringency I'm looking for, or
> should I go ahead and add some wine tannin?
>
> Am I confusing dryness with astringency? The SG is right on
> target, so I'm assuming the kit went off without a hitch
> other than it's not as dry-tasting as I want. What say the
> experts?
>
> Thanks, -Web Williams in Myrtle Beach, SC

Hi Web Williams...

I am no wine expert, but I have always found that oaking does not add
very much tannings. If fact, I use two different types of oak at two
different times. To give a really great vanilla flavor, I use toasted
French Oak chips. Be careful, you can 'over oak' but it does tone down
some after a couple of months of bottle aging. I also use American oak
chips to soften the flavor a bit.

As for adding tannins, I am not versed in this on a first hand basis. I
would recommend that you read as much as you can about this process
before you try to make any additions.

Cheers,

Paddy-O

Web Williams wrote:
> I'm on the second racking of a "Selection International"
> French Cabernet kit, and am wondering if I'm doing
> anything wrong, or if I should just be patient. I was
> shooting for a really astringent mouthfeel, so I added
> 8 ounces of oak (4 oz. French medium toast and 4 oz. of
> French medium+ toast) at the first racking to try to get
> the tannin levels up. My local home winemaking shop hinted
> that I was on the right track to increase astringency, but
> recommended an oak barrel for a truly astringent flavor.
>
> I have 8 more ounces of oak cubes that I have not used yet
> that I -could- add if it would help matters, but I'm thinking
> about buying some wine tannin and adding just a tad to see
> what happens.
>
> The kit just doesn't taste "dry" to my palate. I would like
> the wine almost dry enough to make your mouth pucker at each
> sip! I toured Bordeaux and tried many French Cabs and none
> of them taste as sweet as this batch of wine. Will ageing
> over oak cubes provide the astringency I'm looking for, or
> should I go ahead and add some wine tannin?
>
> Am I confusing dryness with astringency? The SG is right on
> target, so I'm assuming the kit went off without a hitch
> other than it's not as dry-tasting as I want. What say the
> experts?
>
> Thanks, -Web Williams in Myrtle Beach, SC
>

> I toured Bordeaux and tried many French Cabs and none
> of them taste as sweet as this batch of wine.
> <snip>
> Am I confusing dryness with astringency? The SG is right on
> target, so I'm assuming the kit went off without a hitch
> other than it's not as dry-tasting as I want. What say the
> experts?

You mention "none of them taste as sweet as this batch" and
"not as dry-tasting as I want", did you check the zero on your
hydometer?

Don

I did not check the zero, nor do I know how to.... but
I measured the water -very- carefully going in to the kit,
and the SG measured 1.085 prior to fermenting. At first
racking, it was 1.010 (per the instructions, as compared
with the number of days, it was right on target). I did
not check it prior to or after the addition of the fining
agent included in the kit (too busy and not enough time
to do that, and I wanted to get it done on schedule by
the instructions that came with the kit). I'll check the
SG in 7 more days (it will have been clearing for 8 days
per the kit instructions) and will see what the final
gravity is. I am seriously considering experimenting with
the grape tannin. I have one last question before I do
something stupid: at what time in the process should the
tannin normally be added? I realize the amount would be
to-taste, so I am thinking right before bottling so I
can add it a few drops at the time and quit when I think
it has enough. Would this be a correct assumption?

Thanks very much for everyone's wonderful advice!

-Web Williams in Myrtle Beach, SC

In article >,
says...
> > I toured Bordeaux and tried many French Cabs and none
> > of them taste as sweet as this batch of wine.
> > <snip>
> > Am I confusing dryness with astringency? The SG is right on
> > target, so I'm assuming the kit went off without a hitch
> > other than it's not as dry-tasting as I want. What say the
> > experts?
>
> You mention "none of them taste as sweet as this batch" and
> "not as dry-tasting as I want", did you check the zero on your
> hydometer?
>
> Don
>

The tannin I used is from LD Carlson and is powder. I add at the first
fermentation. I also have a batch of Shiraz bulk aging that is a lillte
lazy and have been considering adding some tannin. My recipes in the past
have called for 3/4 tsp for a six gallon batch.



--
KB
St. Charles, MO

"Web Williams" > wrote in message
. com...
> I did not check the zero, nor do I know how to.... but
> I measured the water -very- carefully going in to the kit,
> and the SG measured 1.085 prior to fermenting. At first
> racking, it was 1.010 (per the instructions, as compared
> with the number of days, it was right on target). I did
> not check it prior to or after the addition of the fining
> agent included in the kit (too busy and not enough time
> to do that, and I wanted to get it done on schedule by
> the instructions that came with the kit). I'll check the
> SG in 7 more days (it will have been clearing for 8 days
> per the kit instructions) and will see what the final
> gravity is. I am seriously considering experimenting with
> the grape tannin. I have one last question before I do
> something stupid: at what time in the process should the
> tannin normally be added? I realize the amount would be
> to-taste, so I am thinking right before bottling so I
> can add it a few drops at the time and quit when I think
> it has enough. Would this be a correct assumption?
>
> Thanks very much for everyone's wonderful advice!
>
> -Web Williams in Myrtle Beach, SC
>
> In article >,
> says...
> > > I toured Bordeaux and tried many French Cabs and none
> > > of them taste as sweet as this batch of wine.
> > > <snip>
> > > Am I confusing dryness with astringency? The SG is right on
> > > target, so I'm assuming the kit went off without a hitch
> > > other than it's not as dry-tasting as I want. What say the
> > > experts?
> >
> > You mention "none of them taste as sweet as this batch" and
> > "not as dry-tasting as I want", did you check the zero on your
> > hydometer?
> >
> > Don
> >
>

You should do it while your wine is still in bulk. The tannin can
cause some sediments to form and it would be wise to let it stay for
some weeks until you know the wine is stable.

"K. B." > wrote in message > ...
> The tannin I used is from LD Carlson and is powder. I add at the first
> fermentation. I also have a batch of Shiraz bulk aging that is a lillte
> lazy and have been considering adding some tannin. My recipes in the past
> have called for 3/4 tsp for a six gallon batch.
>
>
>
> --
> KB
> St. Charles, MO
>
> "Web Williams" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > I did not check the zero, nor do I know how to.... but
> > I measured the water -very- carefully going in to the kit,
> > and the SG measured 1.085 prior to fermenting. At first
> > racking, it was 1.010 (per the instructions, as compared
> > with the number of days, it was right on target). I did
> > not check it prior to or after the addition of the fining
> > agent included in the kit (too busy and not enough time
> > to do that, and I wanted to get it done on schedule by
> > the instructions that came with the kit). I'll check the
> > SG in 7 more days (it will have been clearing for 8 days
> > per the kit instructions) and will see what the final
> > gravity is. I am seriously considering experimenting with
> > the grape tannin. I have one last question before I do
> > something stupid: at what time in the process should the
> > tannin normally be added? I realize the amount would be
> > to-taste, so I am thinking right before bottling so I
> > can add it a few drops at the time and quit when I think
> > it has enough. Would this be a correct assumption?
> >
> > Thanks very much for everyone's wonderful advice!
> >
> > -Web Williams in Myrtle Beach, SC
> >
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > > > I toured Bordeaux and tried many French Cabs and none
> > > > of them taste as sweet as this batch of wine.
> > > > <snip>
> > > > Am I confusing dryness with astringency? The SG is right on
> > > > target, so I'm assuming the kit went off without a hitch
> > > > other than it's not as dry-tasting as I want. What say the
> > > > experts?
> > >
> > > You mention "none of them taste as sweet as this batch" and
> > > "not as dry-tasting as I want", did you check the zero on your
> > > hydometer?
> > >
> > > Don
> > >
> >

Web Williams > wrote in message .com>...
> I'm on the second racking of a "Selection International"
> French Cabernet kit, and am wondering if I'm doing
> anything wrong, or if I should just be patient. I was
> shooting for a really astringent mouthfeel, so I added
> 8 ounces of oak (4 oz. French medium toast and 4 oz. of
> French medium+ toast) at the first racking to try to get
> the tannin levels up. My local home winemaking shop hinted
> that I was on the right track to increase astringency, but
> recommended an oak barrel for a truly astringent flavor.

---snip

I have been recommended Tan'Cor, Tan'Cor Grand Cru from Scott
Laboratories www.scottlab.com. I got hold of both @ a month ago and
added it in small amounts to some reds. (Thanks Rigone Bros, Peter and
Kara D. for sharing the order), I say it kicked in fine and I'm very
pleased with the result so far. It truly increased the astringency and
the flavor.

Before this I used some tannin powder I bought locally with no idea
what it was. In the same wine this have added a bitter taste to it.
That's when I begun to investigate the different tannins.

There is a whole management in regard to tannins, for use in different
stages of the wine production all the way to bottling.

I broke down 30g and did 1/2tsp /5gal, but you have to let your taste
guide you. It took a week or so for me to feel the effect of my first
infusion.

SG Brix