Hi Gang--

Long time homebrewer (been a few years since I've
been able to brew, tho), but a first time winemaker.
Considering I like my wine as much as beer, I figure
that it's past time that I started trying to make wine.

Anyway, I decided to start slow and try one of
the 7.5 liter kits, and went with a Vintner's Reserve
Riesling. Things have gone well so far, although my
2yo son nearly dunked his head in the reconstituted
juice during the initial stirring process. (It's a longer
story than that, trust me.)

My questions don't really focus on things like bulk
aging so much as how the wine is coming together.
I made a point of topping off with a commercial
riesling so I didn't thin things out too much, and as
I near the end of the clarifying stage (per the instruction
manual), the wine is starting to taste much more like
a riesling. That said, the wine does taste a bit thin
with little aromatics. Typical at this stage (the 4 week
point), I presume??

In a VR kit, will bulk aging allow the wine to age better,
or is bulk aging more beneficial to the VR reds and the
15-16 and whole juice kits? My assumption is that it
would help some, but what would be a good rule of
thumb for a VR 4-week kit?

Second, from my homebrewing experience, matching
the right yeast to the type of beer being brewed can
be rather important. I'm wondering that if I had replaced
the Red Star yeast (Premier Cuvee, I believe) with one
from Wyeast/White Labs/Lalvin geared toward a
riesling style whether it would have had a dramatic
improvement in the outcome of the wine.

Third, if one would use a Wyeast or White Labs yeast,
do you use a starter amount of fresh juice or concentrate
to get the yeast going before adding to the must?? I've
used that successfully many times with homebrewing,
but in that case, the default extra-light malt extract will
fit in with most homebrewed beers, as opposed to a
varietal for wine.

Thanks in advance,

--Mike L.

Welcome, Mike,

You'll find lots of knowledgeable winemakers here so you've come to
the right place. I'll chime in on a couple things you brought up.
First, the VR kits are the low end of the spectrum in terms of
quality. It's a good place to begin--that's where I began--but you
won't get a stunning wine out of it. You should get a pleasant wine
out of it however. That said, I think the whites tend to be a better
final product from the low end kits than the reds.

Your question about yeast is a good one. Yes, yeast can make some
difference in the final product, but from what I understand, it makes
a bigger difference with beer (I'm not a homebrewer though). Premier
Cuvee is a solid, strong yeast that almost always ferments to
completion which is why it is often included in kits. Not much risk
of a stuck fermentation as long as you follow basic temperature
guidelines. You can experiment with different yeasts with kits and
end up with different characteristics. For example, maybe you prefer
your Riesling to finish with some slight residual sugar and have
stronger fruit flavors. In that case you could try Epernay 2 (Cote
des Blancs). I love Cote des Blancs for fruity whites, but it
ferments quite slowly, especially at low temperatures. It does allow
you to stop a fermentation when the sugar level is where you want it
by chilling it down in some way (I use a full size refrigerator).
There are many, many strains which can provide slightly different
results, but you can't expect miracles. You can never convert
marginal fruit or juice into fantastic wine just by switching yeast.

A great place to read about different wine strains is on Jack Keller's
website. Jack contributes here frequently. Here is his yeast page:
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/strains.asp

Give your kit wine some time. It will improve, especially after a few
months in the bottle. Good luck...


"Michael Lawson" > wrote in message >...
> Hi Gang--
>
> Long time homebrewer (been a few years since I've
> been able to brew, tho), but a first time winemaker.
> Considering I like my wine as much as beer, I figure
> that it's past time that I started trying to make wine.
>
> Anyway, I decided to start slow and try one of
> the 7.5 liter kits, and went with a Vintner's Reserve
> Riesling. Things have gone well so far, although my
> 2yo son nearly dunked his head in the reconstituted
> juice during the initial stirring process. (It's a longer
> story than that, trust me.)
>
> My questions don't really focus on things like bulk
> aging so much as how the wine is coming together.
> I made a point of topping off with a commercial
> riesling so I didn't thin things out too much, and as
> I near the end of the clarifying stage (per the instruction
> manual), the wine is starting to taste much more like
> a riesling. That said, the wine does taste a bit thin
> with little aromatics. Typical at this stage (the 4 week
> point), I presume??
>
> In a VR kit, will bulk aging allow the wine to age better,
> or is bulk aging more beneficial to the VR reds and the
> 15-16 and whole juice kits? My assumption is that it
> would help some, but what would be a good rule of
> thumb for a VR 4-week kit?
>
> Second, from my homebrewing experience, matching
> the right yeast to the type of beer being brewed can
> be rather important. I'm wondering that if I had replaced
> the Red Star yeast (Premier Cuvee, I believe) with one
> from Wyeast/White Labs/Lalvin geared toward a
> riesling style whether it would have had a dramatic
> improvement in the outcome of the wine.
>
> Third, if one would use a Wyeast or White Labs yeast,
> do you use a starter amount of fresh juice or concentrate
> to get the yeast going before adding to the must?? I've
> used that successfully many times with homebrewing,
> but in that case, the default extra-light malt extract will
> fit in with most homebrewed beers, as opposed to a
> varietal for wine.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> --Mike L.

Brad B." > wrote:

> First, the VR kits are the low end of the spectrum in terms of
> quality. It's a good place to begin--that's where I began--but you
> won't get a stunning wine out of it. You should get a pleasant wine
> out of it however.

What wine kits are at the 'high end of the spectrum"?

DJ

>
>What wine kits are at the 'high end of the spectrum"?
>
>DJ
>


Price will tell you everything. Not sure where you live, but in Canada cheap
wine kits are $50 or less, good $70, excellent $100. If you get only a small
bag of conentrate (ie you are adding 2 x that amount in water to the kit), it
is a cheap kit. More expensive kits have 15 litres or more of cocentrate and
some require no dilution (although there is debate as to whether those are
"high end". Some of the 23 litre pails are simply cheap concentrate with the
water added already.

Price usually determines quality.

"Insprucegrove" > wrote in message
...
>
> Price will tell you everything. Not sure where you live, but in Canada
cheap
> wine kits are $50 or less, good $70, excellent $100.

Sorry, I've made the $100 kits. I would never characterize the resulting
wine as excellent. I'm sure it's better than what the $50 kits would have
produced, but I'm afraid the best I can do is damn with faint praise.

BTW, my good wines have medalled at the national competition, so I am
capable of making a decent wine given a good starting point.

Brian

I respects your comments.
Have ever had Greek wine. Some have drunk it all their live and find it
excellent.
I do not like it that much because of the resin taste in it. Now some
people prefers Ice wine because of its sweetness. If we make a testing
panel with people coming from different ethic groups and ask them what is
the best drinking wine we may never come to a consensus. I was on a wine
testing panel and right away I detected that some wine had been filtered and
had a chemical taste. While the other were giving it winning points. That
did not mean that I was right in my finding. I have to give brown beer away
because my family do not like it. Conversely, my friend only drinks brown
Irish stout.
Medals are giving as per the liking of the testing panel. Over here, the
people from France made the statement at their wine festival in Quebec that
wine made with concentrate was not wine. Are they correct in what they are
saying, no they are not. But its good for the promotion of their french
wine. Have a good day

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Insprucegrove" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Price will tell you everything. Not sure where you live, but in Canada
> cheap
> > wine kits are $50 or less, good $70, excellent $100.
>
> Sorry, I've made the $100 kits. I would never characterize the resulting
> wine as excellent. I'm sure it's better than what the $50 kits would have
> produced, but I'm afraid the best I can do is damn with faint praise.
>
> BTW, my good wines have medalled at the national competition, so I am
> capable of making a decent wine given a good starting point.
>
> Brian
>
>

"Brad B." > wrote in message
om...
> Welcome, Mike,
>
> You'll find lots of knowledgeable winemakers here so you've come to
> the right place. I'll chime in on a couple things you brought up.
> First, the VR kits are the low end of the spectrum in terms of
> quality. It's a good place to begin--that's where I began--but you
> won't get a stunning wine out of it. You should get a pleasant wine
> out of it however. That said, I think the whites tend to be a
better
> final product from the low end kits than the reds.

Thanks for the welcome and intro. (My newsreader
was a bit out of whack, so I got this post later than
some of the others.) After perusing the Winemaker
awards, I did notice that far more kits showed up in
the white categories than the red ones, and I guessed
that it was because the kits have a way to go in the
reds. I suspect that Cellarcraft is onto the right
track, however, with their crushed grape packs to
essentially give their kits a shot in the arm.

> Your question about yeast is a good one. Yes, yeast can make some
> difference in the final product, but from what I understand, it
makes
> a bigger difference with beer (I'm not a homebrewer though).
Premier
> Cuvee is a solid, strong yeast that almost always ferments to
> completion which is why it is often included in kits. Not much risk
> of a stuck fermentation as long as you follow basic temperature
> guidelines. You can experiment with different yeasts with kits and
> end up with different characteristics. For example, maybe you
prefer
> your Riesling to finish with some slight residual sugar and have
> stronger fruit flavors. In that case you could try Epernay 2 (Cote
> des Blancs). I love Cote des Blancs for fruity whites, but it
> ferments quite slowly, especially at low temperatures. It does
allow
> you to stop a fermentation when the sugar level is where you want it
> by chilling it down in some way (I use a full size refrigerator).

That's a different way of doing it. I'm used to lagering,
where you have yeast that operates best at 45 F chugging
along in a carboy in the basement for a couple of months,
so using temperature to control the residual sugars will
take some getting used to.

> There are many, many strains which can provide slightly different
> results, but you can't expect miracles. You can never convert
> marginal fruit or juice into fantastic wine just by switching yeast.

Heh. I can believe that.

> A great place to read about different wine strains is on Jack
Keller's
> website. Jack contributes here frequently. Here is his yeast page:
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/strains.asp

Found it. Thanks for the tip.

> Give your kit wine some time. It will improve, especially after a
few
> months in the bottle. Good luck...

Thanks again for the info.

--Mike L.

"Michael Lawson" > wrote in message
...
That said, the wine does taste a bit thin
> with little aromatics. Typical at this stage (the 4 week
> point), I presume??

Yes, but unfortunately, it might not get much better. I'm not a big fan of
kit wines, I'm afraid.

>
> In a VR kit, will bulk aging allow the wine to age better,
> or is bulk aging more beneficial to the VR reds and the
> 15-16 and whole juice kits? My assumption is that it
> would help some, but what would be a good rule of
> thumb for a VR 4-week kit?

Give it 3 months.
>
> Second, from my homebrewing experience, matching
> the right yeast to the type of beer being brewed can
> be rather important. I'm wondering that if I had replaced
> the Red Star yeast (Premier Cuvee, I believe) with one
> from Wyeast/White Labs/Lalvin geared toward a
> riesling style whether it would have had a dramatic
> improvement in the outcome of the wine.

I have been told by someone in the industry (not at liberty to say more)
that at least one of the major Canadian kit producers tests their products
with a variety of yeasts to find the ones that produce the most acceptable
final product. According to them, some strains known for doing a good job
when applied to similar grape-produced wines do not necessarily do a good
job with the kits. I guess about all you can take from that is, if the trade
sheets say "good for Pinot Noir" or "good for Riesling", that might not
apply to the kit you're buying. If you want to go with something other than
the supplied yeast, I would stick to an inexpensive dry yeast. The added
expense of a smack pack might not translate into an improved wine.
>
Brian

Dare I dip my oar in the water?

I am sorry but it tends to boil down to price as far as kits are concerned.
I would never consider making a BK Vintners Reserve Kit ( or indeed any
other equivalent quality red kit ). They are just too thin and totally
unlike the wine varietals that they purport to be. Having said that I know a
couple of "wine makers" in UK who consistently buy a type of very basic kit
( called Solomon Grundy Gold -- 7 day kit) at about a 1/3 of the price of
VR kits ( which I wouldn't buy anyway). The resulting wine is metallic and
off sweet and quite disgusting................. but obviously a lot of
people buy it or it wouldn't survive ... and even more amazingly -- drink
it! But I have known them for 5 years and they still stick to their
"wine"and don't want to "improve their taste.

So, wine makers are all self opinionated, ( not me of course!)

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Lawson" > wrote in message
> ...
> That said, the wine does taste a bit thin
> > with little aromatics. Typical at this stage (the 4 week
> > point), I presume??
>
> Yes, but unfortunately, it might not get much better. I'm not a big fan of
> kit wines, I'm afraid.
>
> >
> > In a VR kit, will bulk aging allow the wine to age better,
> > or is bulk aging more beneficial to the VR reds and the
> > 15-16 and whole juice kits? My assumption is that it
> > would help some, but what would be a good rule of
> > thumb for a VR 4-week kit?
>
> Give it 3 months.
> >
> > Second, from my homebrewing experience, matching
> > the right yeast to the type of beer being brewed can
> > be rather important. I'm wondering that if I had replaced
> > the Red Star yeast (Premier Cuvee, I believe) with one
> > from Wyeast/White Labs/Lalvin geared toward a
> > riesling style whether it would have had a dramatic
> > improvement in the outcome of the wine.
>
> I have been told by someone in the industry (not at liberty to say more)
> that at least one of the major Canadian kit producers tests their products
> with a variety of yeasts to find the ones that produce the most acceptable
> final product. According to them, some strains known for doing a good job
> when applied to similar grape-produced wines do not necessarily do a good
> job with the kits. I guess about all you can take from that is, if the
trade
> sheets say "good for Pinot Noir" or "good for Riesling", that might not
> apply to the kit you're buying. If you want to go with something other
than
> the supplied yeast, I would stick to an inexpensive dry yeast. The added
> expense of a smack pack might not translate into an improved wine.
> >
> Brian
>
>

"Brian Lundeen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Lawson" > wrote in message
> ...
> That said, the wine does taste a bit thin
> > with little aromatics. Typical at this stage (the 4 week
> > point), I presume??
>
> Yes, but unfortunately, it might not get much better. I'm not a big
fan of
> kit wines, I'm afraid.

That's fine with me. If I go whole hog, I may end up
going the from scratch route as well. I've got too
many other hobbies, tho, so I may end up going with
the premium kits or the sterilized juice simply because
I haven't the space in the basement for a crusher and
whatnot.

> > In a VR kit, will bulk aging allow the wine to age better,
> > or is bulk aging more beneficial to the VR reds and the
> > 15-16 and whole juice kits? My assumption is that it
> > would help some, but what would be a good rule of
> > thumb for a VR 4-week kit?
>
> Give it 3 months.

That I can do. No one's bothering it right now, and as long
as my current stash of store bought bottles holds out, I'll
be in good shape. Besides, I need to clear out the space
for storing the batch in bottles when the time comes.

> > Second, from my homebrewing experience, matching
> > the right yeast to the type of beer being brewed can
> > be rather important. I'm wondering that if I had replaced
> > the Red Star yeast (Premier Cuvee, I believe) with one
> > from Wyeast/White Labs/Lalvin geared toward a
> > riesling style whether it would have had a dramatic
> > improvement in the outcome of the wine.
>
> I have been told by someone in the industry (not at liberty to say
more)
> that at least one of the major Canadian kit producers tests their
products
> with a variety of yeasts to find the ones that produce the most
acceptable
> final product. According to them, some strains known for doing a
good job
> when applied to similar grape-produced wines do not necessarily do a
good
> job with the kits. I guess about all you can take from that is, if
the trade
> sheets say "good for Pinot Noir" or "good for Riesling", that might
not
> apply to the kit you're buying. If you want to go with something
other than
> the supplied yeast, I would stick to an inexpensive dry yeast. The
added
> expense of a smack pack might not translate into an improved wine.

Thanks for the info. I'll have to remember to have
a collection going before I try to experiment a bit.

--Mike L.