I have a half barrel of pinot that was crushed by foot and the stems
were left in for 24 hours. I chickened out and ended up running
everything through a destemmer the next day. There is now a very
distinct green flavor in the wine. The tannins are quite high as
well. Any ideas on removing green flavors (and maybe some tannins)?

....Michael

Lots of Burgundians do what you did, but I think they want the stems
headed for brown if not brown. If yours were pretty green it may or
may not be an issue. They make great wine in Burgundy; Henri Jayer is
a big proponent of stems in Pinot Noir. Crushing by foot is pretty
easy on the seeds, you surely cracked none of them.

You can remove tannin with egg whites or knox gelatin, but it may be
too soon to do anything just yet though. You can remove tannin any
time. How long was this on the skins? Getting Pinot tannic is pretty
tough to do as I understand it.

Regards,
Joe

(Michael Brill) wrote in message . com>...
> I have a half barrel of pinot that was crushed by foot and the stems
> were left in for 24 hours. I chickened out and ended up running
> everything through a destemmer the next day. There is now a very
> distinct green flavor in the wine. The tannins are quite high as
> well. Any ideas on removing green flavors (and maybe some tannins)?
>
> ...Michael

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
om...
> Lots of Burgundians do what you did, but I think they want the stems
> headed for brown if not brown. If yours were pretty green it may or
> may not be an issue. They make great wine in Burgundy; Henri Jayer is
> a big proponent of stems in Pinot Noir. Crushing by foot is pretty
> easy on the seeds, you surely cracked none of them.
>
> You can remove tannin with egg whites or knox gelatin, but it may be
> too soon to do anything just yet though. You can remove tannin any
> time.

That's good advice. Personally, I'd prefer gelatin over egg whites for
tannin reduction. It's more aggressive, easier to quantify and not as messy
to use.

How long was this on the skins? Getting Pinot tannic is pretty
> tough to do as I understand it.

Not necessarily so. I've tasted Pinot that wasn't particularly dark that
had quite a lot of harsh tannins.

I'd leave the wine in barrel until a month or so before bottling (which
could be a year, ±) before busting any big moves with fining. Be sure to
keep it sulfited and topped up. You may find that the initial harshness has
dissipated greatly with time. You also may find that the "stemminess" has
integrated with the fruit and wood rather interestingly.

Tom S

Michael,
I agree with Tom S as far as waiting a while before making any fining
decisions. I have never used egg whites, but have had very good results with
Gelatin for Tannin Reduction. A bench trial is definitely recommended in my
mind especially when you are trying something new to make sure the results
are going to be what you are looking for.HTH
John Dixon
"Tom S" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Lots of Burgundians do what you did, but I think they want the stems
> > headed for brown if not brown. If yours were pretty green it may or
> > may not be an issue. They make great wine in Burgundy; Henri Jayer is
> > a big proponent of stems in Pinot Noir. Crushing by foot is pretty
> > easy on the seeds, you surely cracked none of them.
> >
> > You can remove tannin with egg whites or knox gelatin, but it may be
> > too soon to do anything just yet though. You can remove tannin any
> > time.
>
> That's good advice. Personally, I'd prefer gelatin over egg whites for
> tannin reduction. It's more aggressive, easier to quantify and not as
messy
> to use.
>
> How long was this on the skins? Getting Pinot tannic is pretty
> > tough to do as I understand it.
>
> Not necessarily so. I've tasted Pinot that wasn't particularly dark that
> had quite a lot of harsh tannins.
>
> I'd leave the wine in barrel until a month or so before bottling (which
> could be a year, ±) before busting any big moves with fining. Be sure to
> keep it sulfited and topped up. You may find that the initial harshness
has
> dissipated greatly with time. You also may find that the "stemminess" has
> integrated with the fruit and wood rather interestingly.
>
> Tom S
>
>

"Tom S" > wrote in message m>...
>
> I'd leave the wine in barrel until a month or so before bottling (which
> could be a year, ±) before busting any big moves with fining. Be sure to
> keep it sulfited and topped up. You may find that the initial harshness has
> dissipated greatly with time. You also may find that the "stemminess" has
> integrated with the fruit and wood rather interestingly.
>
I don't think it's harsh in a tannic sense, but rather green in
flavor. As you point out, I'm not really in a big hurry, but would
like to know my options as I really intended to use this barrel to
blend with some less concentrated wines - but I don't want everything
to take on the green flavors.

Are the green flavors somehow tied up with tannins (so a reduction in
tannins reduces green flavors)?

....Michael

"Michael Brill" > wrote in message
om...
> Are the green flavors somehow tied up with tannins (so a reduction in
> tannins reduces green flavors)?

Without actually tasting the wine, I couldn't really say. Why don't you try
some bench trials on the wine? Hit a bottle's worth with 1 lb/1000 gal
gelatin, let it settle and see how it tastes. Of course that won't tell you
how it will change with age, but it should be interesting anyway.

Tom S

(Joe Sallustio) wrote in message . com>...
> Lots of Burgundians do what you did, but I think they want the stems
> headed for brown if not brown. If yours were pretty green it may or
> may not be an issue. They make great wine in Burgundy; Henri Jayer is
> a big proponent of stems in Pinot Noir. Crushing by foot is pretty
> easy on the seeds, you surely cracked none of them.
>
The stems were very green (despite sugars at about 26 brix).

> You can remove tannin with egg whites or knox gelatin, but it may be
> too soon to do anything just yet though. You can remove tannin any
> time. How long was this on the skins? Getting Pinot tannic is pretty
> tough to do as I understand it.
>
It was on stems in a cold soak for two days. After I destemmed, it
sat for another three days cold soak and then I fermented in about a
week. So that's roughly 12 days. I'm not so concerned about tannic
structure... my biggest concern is the green flavors. My goal was to
make this wine very big, tannic and relatively low acidity for
blending purposes. I think I've accomplished this but my little
experiment with stomping on stems has created something I want to get
rid of - green.

Michael,

As I'm sure you've deduced already, it's best to be wary of leaving
green stems in the must for any period of time...

My experience with this is relatively limited, but my first wine from
grapes was a Pinot Noir from lower quality Oregon grapes that we
picked ourselves. The wine was very light and had enormous tannins in
the early months, but after 2 years of aging it's becoming amazingly
smooth. It's still very light (almost a rose) but becoming very
enjoyable nonetheless. It also had a bit of vegetal note to it when
young, which is completely gone now.

This year I had a Merlot with a lot of green and leathery notes that
from day 1 was planned to be blended with Cabernet. I went ahead and
did this, and was surprised at how much of the flavour was retained.
So I would definitely caution that you do blending trials to make sure
you don't add too much of the green wine to any others. In my case I
didn't have the time or storage options to many options anyhow, so I
just gambled it would turn out OK. I'm reasonably happy, although
surprised at how little those flavours diminished after being blended.
I'm just hope my winemaking partner and my wife are both as pleased
:-)

If you're planning on blending this purely because it's not desirable
on its own -- as opposed to desiring its qualities in those other
wines -- then I would sit on it for a couple of years because it's
more than likely to change a lot. And you'll be able to blend at that
point with somewhat more predictable long-term results.

Good Luck!

Richard

(Michael Brill) wrote in message . com>...
> (Joe Sallustio) wrote in message . com>...
> > Lots of Burgundians do what you did, but I think they want the stems
> > headed for brown if not brown. If yours were pretty green it may or
> > may not be an issue. They make great wine in Burgundy; Henri Jayer is
> > a big proponent of stems in Pinot Noir. Crushing by foot is pretty
> > easy on the seeds, you surely cracked none of them.
> >
> The stems were very green (despite sugars at about 26 brix).
>
> > You can remove tannin with egg whites or knox gelatin, but it may be
> > too soon to do anything just yet though. You can remove tannin any
> > time. How long was this on the skins? Getting Pinot tannic is pretty
> > tough to do as I understand it.
> >
> It was on stems in a cold soak for two days. After I destemmed, it
> sat for another three days cold soak and then I fermented in about a
> week. So that's roughly 12 days. I'm not so concerned about tannic
> structure... my biggest concern is the green flavors. My goal was to
> make this wine very big, tannic and relatively low acidity for
> blending purposes. I think I've accomplished this but my little
> experiment with stomping on stems has created something I want to get
> rid of - green.

(Richard Kovach) wrote in message . com>...
> As I'm sure you've deduced already, it's best to be wary of leaving
> green stems in the must for any period of time...
>
Yes, lesson learned. This year, being my first, was about
experimentation.

> If you're planning on blending this purely because it's not desirable
> on its own -- as opposed to desiring its qualities in those other
> wines -- then I would sit on it for a couple of years because it's
> more than likely to change a lot. And you'll be able to blend at that
> point with somewhat more predictable long-term results.
>
My goal was to create this wine for the purpose of boosting any wine
that was a bit weak. This wine was picked at about 28 brix, sat on
skins for 12 days, fermented with oak cubes, and is aging in a new
French oak barrel (which costs more than the grapes). The only
problem is the green flavor. It's not apallingly high but I'm not
keen on introducing it to other wines. Sounds like if I can't get the
green out, then just bottling it on its own and hoping it dissipates
might be the plan.

> Good Luck!
>
Thanks.

The green flavours are most probably signs of immature flavour development
in the grapes. Do you know much about the grapes and how they were grown?

Rob L
"Michael Brill" > wrote in message
om...
> (Richard Kovach) wrote in message
. com>...
> > As I'm sure you've deduced already, it's best to be wary of leaving
> > green stems in the must for any period of time...
> >
> Yes, lesson learned. This year, being my first, was about
> experimentation.
>
> > If you're planning on blending this purely because it's not desirable
> > on its own -- as opposed to desiring its qualities in those other
> > wines -- then I would sit on it for a couple of years because it's
> > more than likely to change a lot. And you'll be able to blend at that
> > point with somewhat more predictable long-term results.
> >
> My goal was to create this wine for the purpose of boosting any wine
> that was a bit weak. This wine was picked at about 28 brix, sat on
> skins for 12 days, fermented with oak cubes, and is aging in a new
> French oak barrel (which costs more than the grapes). The only
> problem is the green flavor. It's not apallingly high but I'm not
> keen on introducing it to other wines. Sounds like if I can't get the
> green out, then just bottling it on its own and hoping it dissipates
> might be the plan.
>
> > Good Luck!
> >
> Thanks.

Sad to hear you are using French oak barrels. The Gallo brothers (espec. E.,
not J.) tried those in their earlist days but surrendered them to the West
Modesto Police and Sardine Posse when Reynard Gallo used a French barrel to
commit certain heinous crimes. The Gallo family then replaced all barrels
with used pickling vats, from Norway, and there hasn't been a problem with
green flavors (nor with Reynard) since.

--
Bob Helgoe

"Michael Brill" > wrote in message
om...
> (Richard Kovach) wrote in message
. com>...
> > As I'm sure you've deduced already, it's best to be wary of leaving
> > green stems in the must for any period of time...
> >
> Yes, lesson learned. This year, being my first, was about
> experimentation.
>
> > If you're planning on blending this purely because it's not desirable
> > on its own -- as opposed to desiring its qualities in those other
> > wines -- then I would sit on it for a couple of years because it's
> > more than likely to change a lot. And you'll be able to blend at that
> > point with somewhat more predictable long-term results.
> >
> My goal was to create this wine for the purpose of boosting any wine
> that was a bit weak. This wine was picked at about 28 brix, sat on
> skins for 12 days, fermented with oak cubes, and is aging in a new
> French oak barrel (which costs more than the grapes). The only
> problem is the green flavor. It's not apallingly high but I'm not
> keen on introducing it to other wines. Sounds like if I can't get the
> green out, then just bottling it on its own and hoping it dissipates
> might be the plan.
>
> > Good Luck!
> >
> Thanks.

"Yes, lesson learned. This year, being my first, was about
experimentation."

Mike,

That says it all. Like everyone else is saying, be patient. Wine right
out of the press tastes nothing like what it will in a year or 2. I
have a chambourcin that last year at press time was so bad I thought
I'd be pouring it down the drain. This year, a year on Stavin beans
later and just plain sitting there for another year, I can see the
light at the end of the tunnel. I can either fine it or let it sit
another year and see what happens. I'm opting for the latter. Wine is
very un-american, there is no such thing as instant self-gratification
when you are a wine maker so you need to be VERY patient. "good wine
takes time"

Bob

(Michael Brill) wrote in message . com>...
> (Richard Kovach) wrote in message . com>...
> > As I'm sure you've deduced already, it's best to be wary of leaving
> > green stems in the must for any period of time...
> >
> Yes, lesson learned. This year, being my first, was about
> experimentation.
>
> > If you're planning on blending this purely because it's not desirable
> > on its own -- as opposed to desiring its qualities in those other
> > wines -- then I would sit on it for a couple of years because it's
> > more than likely to change a lot. And you'll be able to blend at that
> > point with somewhat more predictable long-term results.
> >
> My goal was to create this wine for the purpose of boosting any wine
> that was a bit weak. This wine was picked at about 28 brix, sat on
> skins for 12 days, fermented with oak cubes, and is aging in a new
> French oak barrel (which costs more than the grapes). The only
> problem is the green flavor. It's not apallingly high but I'm not
> keen on introducing it to other wines. Sounds like if I can't get the
> green out, then just bottling it on its own and hoping it dissipates
> might be the plan.
>
> > Good Luck!
> >
> Thanks.