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Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes. |
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I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and
I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I protect the wine when it is necessary. Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now, but haven't yet. Dan |
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![]() "Dan Emerson" > wrote in message om... > I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and > I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press > when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a > cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during > the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into > the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my > last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I > could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I > protect the wine when it is necessary. > > Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now, > but haven't yet. > > Dan Dan, I think pressing "when the cap falls" is a poor criteria. Of course, the cap usually falls soon after the sugar is gone, but it is sometimes difficult to estimate the state of the cap. Pressing "when the sugar is nearly gone" seems like a better method because sugar can be easily estimated with a hydrometer. lum |
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![]() "Dan Emerson" > wrote in message om... > I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and > I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press > when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? When the cap falls, the surface of the fermenter will be clear juice. I have rarely observed this phenomenon, and concur with Lum that it's risky to wait for that point. Unless you're conducting extended maceration (and know what you're doing), you should press at or near dryness. Tom S |
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Tom has a good point. In order for the cap to "fall", the cap must be
fairly free of trapped CO2 bubbles. I practice extended maceration and use cap fall as the point where I protect the headspace with Argon (you could use N as well). As Tom pointed out, you may not observe cap fall as it depends on your cap managment practice. I practice rack and return with a good stirring in of the cap twice a day through the duration of primary fermentation. This allows me to see the point of cap fall easily since I purge the cap of trapped gas regularly. If you decide to try extended maceration, make sure you protect your wine with Argon or Nitrogen in a covered container. Also, aeration during primary fermentation is critical if you are going to use extended maceration since H2S problems can become mercaptan problems during EM. Cheers and Good Luck!! Aaron "Tom S" > wrote in message om... > > "Dan Emerson" > wrote in message > om... > > I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and > > I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press > > when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? > > When the cap falls, the surface of the fermenter will be clear juice. I > have rarely observed this phenomenon, and concur with Lum that it's risky to > wait for that point. Unless you're conducting extended maceration (and know > what you're doing), you should press at or near dryness. > > Tom S > > |
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If you are punching down your wine the skins should be under the level of
the juice after each punch down. When no more CO2 is being released the cap won't so much as 'fall' as it will stop rising out of the must. This will coincide with hydrometer showing no more sugar to ferment. I've been making Cabernet and Merlot and I usually press at about 2 weeks with plenty of tannins, but not too much. Brian "Tom S" > wrote in message om... > > "Dan Emerson" > wrote in message > om... > > I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and > > I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press > > when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? > > When the cap falls, the surface of the fermenter will be clear juice. I > have rarely observed this phenomenon, and concur with Lum that it's risky to > wait for that point. Unless you're conducting extended maceration (and know > what you're doing), you should press at or near dryness. > > Tom S > > |
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The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting
until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I have been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years. I wonder if this is because I left them too long. I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but it has not been keeping well. Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome. Ray "Dan Emerson" > wrote in message om... > I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and > I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press > when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a > cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during > the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into > the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my > last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I > could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I > protect the wine when it is necessary. > > Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now, > but haven't yet. > > Dan |
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When you say they haven't been keeping well, what do you mean?
"Ray" > wrote in message ... > The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting > until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I have > been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines > when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years. > I wonder if this is because I left them too long. > > I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane > wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts > dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but it > has not been keeping well. > > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome. > > Ray > > "Dan Emerson" > wrote in message > om... > > I have just a few red wines under my belt (in more ways than one) and > > I have a question on pressing. I have heard that it is best to press > > when 'the cap falls'. What does this look like? I just pressed a > > cabernet where the cap was lethargic and did not rise very much during > > the day. But it was still up. Is is supposed to actually fall into > > the wine so you have no cap? At what point is there danger? When my > > last cabernet was 'lethargic', I was really nervous. I don't think I > > could have waited any longer. What does it look like and how do I > > protect the wine when it is necessary. > > > > Just a beginner wanting to make magnificant wine, I know I can now, > > but haven't yet. > > > > Dan > > |
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![]() "Aaron Puhala" > wrote in message ... > When you say they haven't been keeping well, what do you mean? > When 1 to 2 years old they tend to be very fruity and nicely ballanced. After 2 years they start developing an off taste. I cannot specify what type of taste it is, just that it is not especially pleasant. It gets worse with time. I am not sure if it is something I have done, an infection that only shows up after 2 years, or what. Ray > > "Ray" > wrote in message > ... > > The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting > > until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I > have > > been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines > > when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years. > > I wonder if this is because I left them too long. > > > > I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane > > wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts > > dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but > it > > has not been keeping well. > > > > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome. > > > > Ray |
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"Ray" > wrote in message >.. .
> The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting > until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I have > been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines > when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years. > I wonder if this is because I left them too long. > > I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane > wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts > dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but it > has not been keeping well. > > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome. > > Ray > I have one theory. One of the reasons extended maceration is used is to soften a wine. The increased time on the skins actually helps the tannins polymerize into longer chains which settle out more quickly. If it is over-done, you could be left with little or no tannins. This is fine for an early drinking wine, but tannin can help a wine age gracefully. Andy |
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Hi Andy,
I've never heard of too long a maceration resulting in no tannins? Have you experienced this yourself or can you give me a reference? I believe some very fine CA cabernets and blend producers utilize upwards of 35-40 days of extended maceration with plenty of tannins remaining in the wine. CHEERS! Aaron "JEP" > wrote in message om... > "Ray" > wrote in message >.. . > > The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting > > until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I have > > been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines > > when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years. > > I wonder if this is because I left them too long. > > > > I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane > > wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts > > dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but it > > has not been keeping well. > > > > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome. > > > > Ray > > > > I have one theory. One of the reasons extended maceration is used is > to soften a wine. The increased time on the skins actually helps the > tannins polymerize into longer chains which settle out more quickly. > > If it is over-done, you could be left with little or no tannins. This > is fine for an early drinking wine, but tannin can help a wine age > gracefully. > > Andy |
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"Aaron Puhala" > wrote in message >...
> Hi Andy, > > I've never heard of too long a maceration resulting in no tannins? Have you > experienced this yourself or can you give me a reference? I believe some > very fine CA cabernets and blend producers utilize upwards of 35-40 days of > extended maceration with plenty of tannins remaining in the wine. > > CHEERS! > > Aaron > Yes, but they are starting with grapes that contain higher tannin levels than (at least I) get in my grapes shipped from California. Who are the wineries doing the extended maceration that long? The wineries I know that use (or used) extended maceration tend to be on the early drinking side rather than the long lasters. Of course, in general, new world producers have that reputation anyway. Extended maceration promotes polymerization of the tannins resulting in a softer wine. UC Davis literature includes this comment concerning extended maceration : "The surface of the skin cells may additionally provide a nucleating center for the precipitation or polymerization of compounds,decreasing their concentration in the wine." I have also experienced this myself when doing extended maceration. The tannin level may increase over the short term, but then the tannins soften and round out. If you start with a wine that has little tannin to begin with and employ extended maceration, this could cause a further reduction of the already low tannin level. There is also some indication (in other references)that extended maceration can reduce the acid content of the must due to an increase in the potassium extracted from the skins causing more acid to form bitartrate which precipitates out. BTW, UC Davis appears to believe that extended maceration does nothing to increase the extraction from the skins: "Several studies have shown that both extended maceration and cold soak do not really impact the level of skin components in the wine, as the principle factor enhancing extraction is high temperature." Andy |
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I should clarify. When I say upwards of 35-40 I am actually talking about
maceration time which would include say 5-10 days for fermentation with actual EXTENDED maceration of 20-30 days. Some of the longest "macerators" that I am aware of a USA: Opus Mondavi Signorello Luna ABROAD: Artessa Arboleda / Caliterra Chateau Clinet Chteau Prieuré-Lichine Other Bordeaux (I believe extended maceration is traditional practice in Bordeaux) Mondavi uses long maceration at elevated temperatures. Here is an interesting article on Mondavi's new Cabernet facility... http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb01p21.htm Excerpt: "Extended maceration (35 days on average) at warm temperatures (83°F) enhances further extraction of tannin substrates from the grape skins while hastening the reactions of polymerization. This results in substantial yet approachable wines with enhanced color stability." Also mentioned in the article is Halan Estate which uses the same type of large oak primary fermentors and I imaging they use a long maceration time as well. You are absolutely correct in your implication that extended maceration is best employed only when very good fruit is available such that available extract is high. I also agree with you that extraction is primarily a matter of temperature. I think there is much debate, however, on the benefits/merit of extended maceration. I think the benefits of extended maceration has more to do with modifying the extract rather than increasing the extract. Take Mondavi as an example. Their new Cabernet facility uses oak fermentation tanks which allow the maceration temperature to be kept higher through the duration of skin contact. This is a direct departure from the direction they insisted on for Opus, namely stainless steel fermentation tanks. Both Mondavi and Opus practice extended maceration at elevated (~80-85F) temperatures but the difference lies in the type of fermentor. Oak vessels also "breath" allowing very slow oxygenation of the wine during maceration. StaVin has some interesting information on their website about the role of oxygen and oak in wine tannin and color stabilization. It appears that oxygen action on the wine produces small amounts of acetaldehyde which can cause crosslinking reactions in tannin-anthocyanin complexes helping to keep them in solution. StaVin claims that certain extractable compounds from toasted oak can also cause these crosslinking reactions. They also claim that in the absence of oxygen and oak extractables, polymerization of tannins in a reductive environment will lead to precipitation of tannin and color constituents. So much to learn so little time!! CHEERS! Aaron "JEP" > wrote in message om... > "Aaron Puhala" > wrote in message >... > > Hi Andy, > > > > I've never heard of too long a maceration resulting in no tannins? Have you > > experienced this yourself or can you give me a reference? I believe some > > very fine CA cabernets and blend producers utilize upwards of 35-40 days of > > extended maceration with plenty of tannins remaining in the wine. > > > > CHEERS! > > > > Aaron > > > > Yes, but they are starting with grapes that contain higher tannin > levels than (at least I) get in my grapes shipped from California. > > Who are the wineries doing the extended maceration that long? The > wineries I know that use (or used) extended maceration tend to be on > the early drinking side rather than the long lasters. Of course, in > general, new world producers have that reputation anyway. > > Extended maceration promotes polymerization of the tannins resulting > in a softer wine. UC Davis literature includes this comment concerning > extended maceration : > > "The surface of the skin cells may additionally > provide a nucleating center for the precipitation or polymerization of > compounds,decreasing their concentration in the wine." > > I have also experienced this myself when doing extended maceration. > The tannin level may increase over the short term, but then the > tannins soften and round out. If you start with a wine that has little > tannin to begin with and employ extended maceration, this could cause > a further reduction of the already low tannin level. > > There is also some indication (in other references)that extended > maceration can reduce the acid content of the must due to an increase > in the potassium extracted from the skins causing more acid to form > bitartrate which precipitates out. > > BTW, UC Davis appears to believe that extended maceration does nothing > to increase the extraction from the skins: > > "Several studies have shown that both extended maceration and cold > soak do not really impact the level of skin components in the wine, as > the principle factor enhancing extraction is high temperature." > > > Andy |
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![]() "Ray" > wrote in message ... > The last few years I have been trying to extend my maceration and waiting > until the cap truly falls. I have been letting it go for 20+ days. I have > been getting glorious color extraction and have been happy with the wines > when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years. > I wonder if this is because I left them too long. > > I have not been using inert gas but I have been laying a layer of sarane > wrap over the surface to keep air contact to a minimum when the cap starts > dropping. Like I say, no sign of oxidation when it becomes drinkable but it > has not been keeping well. > > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome. Could be the structure of the wine was never appropriate for long term aging. If the pH was on the high side and/or you used minimal SO2 that could account for the short aging potential. Tom S |
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Ray,
> when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years. > I wonder if this is because I left them too long. > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome. What quality of fruit are you using? What's your pH typically? I'm sure you know that without using fruit that can handle extended maceration (i.e. high quantity of ripe tannins, fruit character, etc) there's no point in EM. Have you noticed the wines' tannin profiles softening considerably during EM? Both the qualitative and quantitative qualities of phenols play a huge role in the success of EM. Ben |
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Replying to several posts above:
Ben, I have used Lodi Merlot, Shiraz, and Cab Sauv. and Merlot, Cab. Franc, and Cab Sauv. from they east coast in different years. The wine does soften through maceration and I prefer softer reds. Beyond these comments, I am not sure. Brian: I punch down until the cap stops rising then I just check it every day not wanting to expose it too much. I may be getting to much air to it but oxidation has not been a problem up to an age of 2 years. Tom S.: Some of these wines have been high pH, high TA wines. For others the pH was about right. I only started checking SO2 levels recently and that may be a problem. But they do not seem to be oxidized. Ray "Ben Rotter" > wrote in message om... > Ray, > > > when young (18 mo's) but they have not been keeping well beyond 2-3 years. > > I wonder if this is because I left them too long. > > Just a comment. Any opinions would be welcome. > > What quality of fruit are you using? What's your pH typically? I'm > sure you know that without using fruit that can handle extended > maceration (i.e. high quantity of ripe tannins, fruit character, etc) > there's no point in EM. Have you noticed the wines' tannin profiles > softening considerably during EM? Both the qualitative and > quantitative qualities of phenols play a huge role in the success of > EM. > > Ben |
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When fermentation is finished and the cap starts to fall is there an
optimum time I should leave the wine before I press? I can cover the must with cellophane. |
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As long as you have a tank of CO2, N2, or Ar, best to use your taste buds
every few days after cap fall since you can use your inert gas to protect the wine after each sampling. From my own experience with extended maceration, I suggest that you press the wine no more 2 weeks after cap fall. The riper your fruit, the longer you can go. There is a point after cap fall where the tannins soften substantially but the wine still has good backbone. It's more of a mid-pallate change where the wine feels smooth and full in the mouth but still has noticeable tannin after the wine is swallowed. Of course, to notice this change you need to be tasting the wine on a regular basis as cap fall approaches. As an aside - If anyone wants to see the benefits of extended maceration, try it with Sangiovese. I was floored myself by the difference aeration and EM makes with this variety. CHEERS! Aaron "Jim" > wrote in message ... > When fermentation is finished and the cap starts to fall is there an > optimum time I should leave the wine before I press? I can cover the > must with cellophane. |
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Thanks for the suggestions Aaron I do not have any gas, will
cellophane do the job? |
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![]() "Jim" > wrote in message ... > Thanks for the suggestions Aaron I do not have any gas, will > cellophane do the job? A sheet of plastic, smoothed down against the surface of the wine and held down with flat pieces of wood will work. You could even just pour water on the top of the plastic to hold it in place, but you'd need to be careful not to get it into the wine. In either case, you want to spritz the edges lightly with sulfite to keep stuff from growing there, and wipe that area down when you check the wine. Tom S |
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Tom is right on. If you don't have inert gas to work with your number one
concern will be acetobacteria in the headspace. By keeping the plastic on tight (Before I purchased Argon tanks, I would cover with plastic and use duct tape around the perimeter) you will minimize the amount of oxygen and keep out bacteria sources (i.e. bugs and dust). Using sulfite as Tom suggests will kill surface bacteria. I prefer to use a clean cloth dampened with a strong sulfite/acid solution to wipe the inside sides and edges of the container rather than spray but either method should work just fine. During EM I taste my wines every few days starting about a week after cap fall. Opening the cover this often is not an issue for me as I have Argon to blanket after each tasting. You may want to limit your tasting to once at cap fall, at one week and again at 2 weeks. (I typically go between 15 and 20 days of EM) To minimize the number of times you open the cover, whenever you taste, make sure you will be able to press that day if need be. If you haven't done EM before, what you want to look for is a change in the mouthfeel of the wine. It will change from being obviously young and tannic in the mouth to being softer and more full. From my experience it is more a mid-pallate change as the tannins are still apparent after you swallow the wine. CHEERS and GOOD LUCK! Aaron "Tom S" > wrote in message m... > > "Jim" > wrote in message > ... > > Thanks for the suggestions Aaron I do not have any gas, will > > cellophane do the job? > > A sheet of plastic, smoothed down against the surface of the wine and held > down with flat pieces of wood will work. You could even just pour water on > the top of the plastic to hold it in place, but you'd need to be careful not > to get it into the wine. In either case, you want to spritz the edges > lightly with sulfite to keep stuff from growing there, and wipe that area > down when you check the wine. > > Tom S > > |
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